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[Nickiepoo]

Why the hell are PPCs useless pieces of junk?

Possibly because you're firing them from within 90 meters where the normal version has a (grossly underdocumented) minimum range and suffers from damage falloff within this range.
ERPPCs have no minimum along with their extended maximum.

They currently aren't being lag compensated in the way that lasers now are, so you might also be missing moving targets despite the fact that it looks like you're hitting on your screen.

Either way, a pair of them does the same damage as an AC20 at a longer range so they're far from useless even before their recent heat buff.

 

[dionysus]

PPCs are actually a flavor of the month weapon currently with recent buffs and the ECM counter for 4 seconds. 6 PPC stalkers are dumb in my opinion but definitely popular in pug games, though I don't think premades use them (they go for splatcats.)

 

[Woorloog]

PPCs are actually a flavor of the month weapon currently with recent buffs and the ECM counter for 4 seconds. 6 PPC stalkers are dumb in my opinion but definitely popular in pug games, though I don't think premades use them (they go for splatcats.)

Splatcat?

 

[dionysus]

Splatcat?

A1 variant with every hardpoint a SRM 6. Actually a damn effective mech because of the huge torso twist and how fast you can go putting the max XL engine in it + jumpjets.

 

[Ebris]

Man, it sucks.

I'm in a position where I'm having a lot of fun with MW:O, to the point where my unease with the MC consumables is overlooked; however, I completely understand people leaving the game because of it. I'm just worried that PGI will kill itself by ostracizing its player base, even if it's being forced to by its publisher and not of their own accord.

I don't want another MW game to die, dammit. Hnnngh.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Man, it sucks.

I'm in a position where I'm having a lot of fun with MW:O, to the point where my unease with the MC consumables is overlooked; however, I completely understand people leaving the game because of it. I'm just worried that PGI will kill itself by ostracizing its player base, even if it's being forced to by its publisher and not of their own accord.

I don't want another MW game to die, dammit. Hnnngh.

It ain't going to die because of this

 

[Ebris]

Yeah, I agree with that - but, if they DO continue to go down a path of seemingly P2W options, then it can very well bite the dust eventually.

 

[dionysus]

All you 'really' gain by paying is a module slot. min/maxers subsidise f2pers in a way that doesn't even really give them an advantage, boohoo.

PPC boats get one extra shot per match, I get a game that's actually being funded. Caring = zero.

Non-paid arty does more damage, caring = zero.

I am not quitting but there is evidence that the money MWO makes is going to the other 2 games that Infinite Games is funding. In an interview with IGP, they confirmed that the founders money (which exceeded expectations by quite a bit I think) was also funding the other 2 games and the founders pitch was misleading. Piranha has stated that the relationship with the publisher is "complicated." And no hiring has been going on at Piranha for a bit despite a massive backlog of missed deadlines (remember 2 mechs a month). Now the MWO forums conclude that IGP is stealing all the cash, but I think that is an overreaction. After all the publisher is not going to give Piranha all the founders money upfront as a blank check.

Though I do see a problem with this publisher business model in a f2p game. As far as I know all the successful f2p games have been funded without a publisher, so the developer pretty much controls all the money decisions and I think the developer is better at prioritizing to make MWO better than IGP is. I am afraid that IGP is going to kill there cash cow with neglect and I am very doubtful that Mechwarrior Tactics or whatever it is is going to be successful.

 

[Lime]

Mechwarrior Tactics will bomb to hell and back. It's a waste of money for everyone involved.

 

[dionysus]

Mechwarrior Tactics will bomb to hell and back. It's a waste of money for everyone involved.

I loved Cyberstorm back in the day but I just don't think the target audience is large enough to support a f2p game. F2p needs a large community.

 

[Nickiepoo]

I am not quitting but there is evidence that the money MWO makes is going to the other 2 games that Infinite Games is funding. In an interview with IGP, they confirmed that the founders money (which exceeded expectations by quite a bit I think) was also funding the other 2 games and the founders pitch was misleading. Piranha has stated that the relationship with the publisher is "complicated." And no hiring has been going on at Piranha for a bit despite a massive backlog of missed deadlines (remember 2 mechs a month). Now the MWO forums conclude that IGP is stealing all the cash, but I think that is an overreaction. After all the publisher is not going to give Piranha all the founders money upfront as a blank check.

Though I do see a problem with this publisher business model in a f2p game. As far as I know all the successful f2p games have been funded without a publisher, so the developer pretty much controls all the money decisions and I think the developer is better at prioritizing to make MWO better than IGP is. I am afraid that IGP is going to kill there cash cow with neglect and I am very doubtful that Mechwarrior Tactics or whatever it is is going to be successful.

Heh, this is all news to me, and would explain a move to a more aggressive 'buy shit now' stance that the game had previously been pretty free from.

 

[Woorloog]

A1 variant with every hardpoint a SRM 6. Actually a damn effective mech because of the huge torso twist and how fast you can go putting the max XL engine in it + jumpjets.

Ah. I prefer C4, with 2xLRM20, 2xSSRM2 and 2xML. Much more versatile, i don't like boating, especially close range boating. Too risky.
I do know how effective it is, i remember well... I also remember that killing them is relatively easy, just blow up the arms, ears, things.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Heh, this is all news to me, and would explain a move to a more aggressive 'buy shit now' stance that the game had previously been pretty free from.

Doesn't seem that surprising to me, the further along and closer to "real launch" will keep adding more money sinks into the game. They weren't going to make much money with what they were offering currently and just keep adding dashboard cosmetics and hero mechs. Surprised they haven't monetized everything as an option yet.

 

[dionysus]

Ah. I prefer C4, with 2xLRM20, 2xSSRM2 and 2xML. Much more versatile, i don't like boating, especially close range boating. Too risky.
I do know how effective it is, i remember well... I also remember that killing them is relatively easy, just blow up the arms, ears, things.

I don't like boating either but it works especially with almost all the maps having good cover and encouraging brawls. The larger maps that are coming will be good at driving people back to versatility.

Yea I try to shoot the ears and stay away but if the team has more than 1 on a map like RC damn they are good.

 

[Zaptruder]

It ain't going to die because of this

It's certainly not going to growing because of it.

It's a short sighted view of the game. Instead of focusing on improving its quality and growing its userbase, IGP are looking to squeeze the golden goose to death before it even grows up.

I mean... do you want to play a game where you can't shake the feeling that in order to feel competitive you need to load up on pay 2 win consumables? Or even to get the most 'enjoyment' out of it by not running gimped mechs and builds.


There are so many other ways to raise cash and create time and money sinks; the most direct method; simply selling CBs for MC hasn't even been implemented yet; that would certainly bring in a fair amount for them, and simply continue to lie well within the area of pay for convenience, or pay to reduce grind.

I mean, you can already use MCs to get CBs in a round about way; buy a mech with MC, sell it for CBs.

But instead, they've overtly chosen to probe the willingness of the community to tolerate this stupid bullshit; so they can know how much more such bullshit they can get away with.

Make no mistake; this move is an insidious as it transparently appears to be.

I'm going to take a break from the game on the week the game launches, and I'm ceasing buying/spending MC altogether until they capitulate on the issue of P2W.

 

[BattleMonkey]

It's certainly not going to growing because of it.

It's a short sighted view of the game. Instead of focusing on improving its quality and growing its userbase, IGP are looking to squeeze the golden goose to death before it even grows up..

I think that's unfair, it's not like they stopped trying to improve things, they are obviously working on the game and adding to it, I would only be concerned about it if they were doing nothing more this month than releasing the consumabes, but they put in some new netcode, mech, map, etc.

I mean... do you want to play a game where you can't shake the feeling that in order to feel competitive you need to load up on pay 2 win consumables? Or even to get the most 'enjoyment' out of it by not running gimped mechs and builds..

Course not, but I will worry about that only when it actually happens and is proven to be p2w once it's been implemented.

The main thing to me is to see how they respond to all the critiscm they are getting and if they make any changes the playerbase have been making. Lot of knee jerk reactions right now while there are many more level headed suggestions being made. Will they listen? That's whats important to me. It's a business, it's all about money, so I have no issue with them probing the community. All that matters is if they are going to be flexible about things and actually appear to listen instead of actually screwing the playerbase.

 

[Zaptruder]

The main thing to me is to see how they respond to all the critiscm they are getting and if they make any changes the playerbase have been making. Lot of knee jerk reactions right now while there are many more level headed suggestions being made. Will they listen? That's whats important to me. It's a business, it's all about money, so I have no issue with them probing the community. All that matters is if they are going to be flexible about things and actually appear to listen instead of actually screwing the playerbase.

As a playerbase, we have to do our part in making sure things don't go sideways as well. The knee jerk reactions are absolutely warranted; every bit of outrage we can summon on this issue will be necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're making a mistake by even exploring this direction.

If we wait until the point where it's *obviously* P2W, then it'll already have been too late. At that point, we'll realize that as a community we've embraced... or simply been too willing to give a benefit of a doubt, these elements that provide gameplay advantages that have been locked behind the pay gate. And that it'll be hard to reverse course once the players that are vehemently against this have left the game, and the players that are left are apathetic or even embracing the P2W system.

 

[BattleMonkey]

As a playerbase, we have to do our part in making sure things don't go sideways as well. The knee jerk reactions are absolutely warranted; every bit of outrage we can summon on this issue will be necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're making a mistake by even exploring this direction.

If we wait until the point where it's *obviously* P2W, then it'll already have been too late. At that point, we'll realize that as a community we've embraced... or simply been too willing to give a benefit of a doubt, these elements that provide gameplay advantages that have been locked behind the pay gate. And that it'll be hard to reverse course once the players that are vehemently against this have left the game, and the players that are left are apathetic or even embracing the P2W system.

That's fine and all, but at the same time lot of stuff is being said without anyone actually having tried anything as well, like how airstrikes and artillery were going to destroy mechs left and right with us not even knowing how effective they are. So much hyperbole does not help when every little thing on the forum causes players to threaten to quit, even before the consumable stuff. Such threats become redundant and are going to have no affect either. They ask for feedback and players essentially go on and post "put this in the game and I quit" is not really helpful.

If players will quit and not come back even if PGI makes a mistake and fixes it soon after, then frankly I don't think it matters whatever they do with such sensitive players, they were gonna quit at the snap of anything. If PGI can admit or fix mistakes they make, good on them, I'm not going to take my ball and go home.

 

[Zaptruder]

That's fine and all, but at the same time lot of stuff is being said without anyone actually having tried anything as well, like how airstrikes and artillery were going to destroy mechs left and right with us not even knowing how effective they are. So much hyperbole does not help when every little thing on the forum causes players to threaten to quit, even before the consumable stuff. Such threats become redundant and are going to have no affect either. They ask for feedback and players essentially go on and post "put this in the game and I quit" is not really helpful.

If players will quit and not come back even if PGI makes a mistake and fixes it soon after, then frankly I don't think it matters whatever they do with such sensitive players, they were gonna quit at the snap of anything. If PGI can admit or fix mistakes they make, good on them, I'm not going to take my ball and go home.

As rational a position as that is to take; the severity of the point of the negative impact of this P2W precedence needs to be hammered home to all involves; players, developer, publisher.

Don't take a wait and see approach; just leave the game *until* they banish the thought of P2W. The point isn't how reasonably they can balance that element at first blush. The point is to get them to remove it entirely. Previously, they had sold their playerbase on claims that they thoroughly desired to avoid making their game P2W. Whether IGP or PGI is responsible; now that their word on this most important issue is broken; we have no way to trust that this won't slide into a slippery slope oblivion.

You'd hope they'd be reasonable about it; but the very action of making a P2W item means you can no longer rely on that bit of naievete.

Well, whatever; there are plenty of other gaming experiences out there, as much as I like the BattleTech universe and the Mechwarrior experience, and think that up till now, this has been far and away the best implementation of that experience; it is not the only fish in the ocean.

 

[No_Style]

That's fine and all, but at the same time lot of stuff is being said without anyone actually having tried anything as well, like how airstrikes and artillery were going to destroy mechs left and right with us not even knowing how effective they are.

I see this argument and then I immediately have to ask: then what's the point? What's the point of locking items behind MC if they're not effective in the slightest? It may not be literally "pay 2 win" but it is pay for an advantage and I cannot stand behind that. You don't even need to look beyond the coolant flush breakdown to see the head scratching decisions they're making.

If players will quit and not come back even if PGI makes a mistake and fixes it soon after, then frankly I don't think it matters whatever they do with such sensitive players, they were gonna quit at the snap of anything. If PGI can admit or fix mistakes they make, good on them, I'm not going to take my ball and go home.

If they back pedal, I'll come back but it will be quite some time before I give them any money. Is it not fair of me? Perhaps but that's what happens when you embark on this "P2W" path. How can I trust them not to revisit this in a few months time when they've broken their word already?

What sucks the most is that I won't be able to play with a Mechwarrior game with some of you folks but like Zap said, there are other games out there.

Spoiler

I'm still playing Rayman: Origins

 

[JWong]

Possibly because you're firing them from within 90 meters where the normal version has a (grossly underdocumented) minimum range and suffers from damage falloff within this range.
ERPPCs have no minimum along with their extended maximum.

They currently aren't being lag compensated in the way that lasers now are, so you might also be missing moving targets despite the fact that it looks like you're hitting on your screen.

Either way, a pair of them does the same damage as an AC20 at a longer range so they're far from useless even before their recent heat buff.

I was thinking that there was a minimum range.

I'm only packing 2 ER PPCs with double heatsinks everywhere else on a splatcat. Short range, optimal range, and out of range all seem to be very weak.

The enemy percentage health isn't indicative of specific health, but it only takes off like 2%, and the convergence on PPCs are very bad. I get better results from 4 lasers and started winning games more.

I've yet to try LRMs and Ballistics, but LRMs seem to be the most powerful. I just can't tell since my first variant can't hold missiles.

 

[Zaptruder]

I was thinking that there was a minimum range.

I'm only packing 2 ER PPCs with double heatsinks everywhere else on a splatcat. Short range, optimal range, and out of range all seem to be very weak.

The enemy percentage health isn't indicative of specific health, but it only takes off like 2%, and the convergence on PPCs are very bad. I get better results from 4 lasers and started winning games more.

I've yet to try LRMs and Ballistics, but LRMs seem to be the most powerful. I just can't tell since my first variant can't hold missiles.

PPC convergence works best when they come out of the same body part.

 

[Zaptruder]

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/103677-consumables-back-to-the-drawing-board/

Developers listened to the community. P2W averted.

 

[No_Style]

Hurray. Now to grind GXP. So much GXP needed.

I just can't believe they thought the original implementation was a good idea in the first place.

 

[Zaptruder]

Hurray. Now to grind GXP. So much GXP needed.

I just can't believe they thought the original implementation was a good idea in the first place.

Eh. I have more GXP than I know what to do with so bring it on.

 

[Llyranor]

Yay.

Now, I'm concerned by arty/airstrikes. Even with flight times, 4sec global cooldown is too short. Sounds like you could expect arty dropping every 15secs or so. 20-30+ sec global cooldown sounds more like it to me.

I guess it'd be situational. A brawl would make them less useful since you'd have both teams in the melee (unless with a kamikaze teammate). 10 dmg per shell. I wonder how many shells could hit any single mech - 1? 2? In that case, it wouldn't be so bad (like being hit by a srm4); so the main use would be if the enemy was extremely concentrated.

..... Which may actually benefit the game. Looser formations, perhaps split-up lances, instead of just one giant ball of death. If 1-2 mechs only are hit by the arty, that's really not that much damage, and almost a 'waste' of arty.

 

[Orayn]

Their new handling of consumables is kind of subversive, and I like that. It basically implies that a player can "graduate" from there being any benefit to buying the MC version, which is an interesting model that I wish more F2P games would experiment with.

(ESPECIALLY HAWKEN, 'CAUSE GODDAMN.)

 

[Zaptruder]

I plan on using my arty strikes primarily as martyr grenades.

KILL ME!? NO I KILL YOU!

 

[teepo]

Hurray. Now to grind GXP. So much GXP needed.

I just can't believe they thought the original implementation was a good idea in the first place.

Am I alone in feeling that what we'll be getting now is closer to their original vision on how consumables would've worked and operated? I highly doubt that they thought the original implementation was a good idea given how vocal the developers have been on their own forums about monetizing the game through incentivizing the use of P2W mechanics.

 

[Nickiepoo]

I was thinking that there was a minimum range.

I'm only packing 2 ER PPCs with double heatsinks everywhere else on a splatcat. Short range, optimal range, and out of range all seem to be very weak.

The enemy percentage health isn't indicative of specific health, but it only takes off like 2%, and the convergence on PPCs are very bad. I get better results from 4 lasers and started winning games more.

2 PPCs is fine, each shot is 20 damage so even on an Atlas it will only take a few shots to strip all the armour off its core + disabling its ECM.

They're not easy to use on a slower mech with arm aiming though (like you say, convergance issues) so I think your problem might be more to do with your chassis than with the weapon itself. I get great results out of an Awesome 9M with double PPCs, being faster and torso mounted.

I mean, there's a reason why PPC K2s are pretty unpopular, if people want a PPC boat they use an Awesome, Stalker or RS, if they want a K2 they put Ballistics on it.

EDIT: I'd like to thank all the p2w protesters for making me have to spend 5x the cbills on each airstrike and have to grind another 45k gxp.

 

[BattleMonkey]

40k cbills for one artillery strike? At that price I doubt your going to be seeing a whole lot of arty spam. The MC costs still seem quite low compared to the c-bill costs which are much higher than their original versions.

 

[JWong]

Anyone have experience with the Stalker Missile variant?

I want to hear how 5x LRM20 does in the game.

2 PPCs is fine, each shot is 20 damage so even on an Atlas it will only take a few shots to strip all the armour off its core + disabling its ECM.

They're not easy to use on a slower mech with arm aiming though (like you say, convergance issues) so I think your problem might be more to do with your chassis than with the weapon itself. I get great results out of an Awesome 9M with double PPCs, being faster and torso mounted.

I mean, there's a reason why PPC K2s are pretty unpopular, if people want a PPC boat they use an Awesome, Stalker or RS, if they want a K2 they put Ballistics on it.

Hmm I'm hitting them fine on my screen, so maybe I'm just missing them because of the lag.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Yeah, most likely, the netcode is still a work in progress. Lasers just got 'fixed' lagwise which would explain why you're doing better with them.

I want to hear how 5x LRM20 does in the game.

Probably overkill in terms of the burst damage vs available tonnage for heatsinks and ammo. Not to mention that firing them for any lengh of time will overheat you pretty quickly. When the game goes 12v12 later this month, taking enough ammo for a lenghy fight will become even more important. I haven't used one myself though.

 

[JWong]

I really hate the fact that I can't see weapons until I have that variant. I don't know how much LRM weighs to plan my purchases.

 

[Nickiepoo]

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/75141-online-mechlab-maps-stats-and-data-12197/

That should help. The online mechlab is particually good for planning out builds.

 

[JWong]

Oh yeah, that'll help for sure. Thanks.

 

[teepo]

Yay.

Now, I'm concerned by arty/airstrikes. Even with flight times, 4sec global cooldown is too short. Sounds like you could expect arty dropping every 15secs or so. 20-30+ sec global cooldown sounds more like it to me.

I guess it'd be situational. A brawl would make them less useful since you'd have both teams in the melee (unless with a kamikaze teammate). 10 dmg per shell. I wonder how many shells could hit any single mech - 1? 2? In that case, it wouldn't be so bad (like being hit by a srm4); so the main use would be if the enemy was extremely concentrated.

..... Which may actually benefit the game. Looser formations, perhaps split-up lances, instead of just one giant ball of death. If 1-2 mechs only are hit by the arty, that's really not that much damage, and almost a 'waste' of arty.

after doing some basic math, it doesn’t seem as if the arty/airstrikes will be that useful in early game situations, especially in pubs, unless it’s used more than once before the major engagement.

take for example the airstrike, which has a radius of 50 meters for its six shells to randomly land with each one dealing 10 dmg on a direct hit. each shell has a damage fall off of 10 meters from its point of impact, so given that the airstrike covers an area roughly the size of 7850 square meters, any target within the “blast” radius will have a 24% chance of being damaged by any number that is greater than zero.

of course, this is very basic math and I’m assuming the space within the blast radius is completely flat and that trajectory doesn’t exist in this model since those two will just complicate everything. though it’s easy to assume that the bigger the mech, the greater the chances are that it'll be hit directly by more than just one shell.

but like you said, it's like being hit by a SRM4, which isn't too bad but i guess we'll see how this will change the metagama, especially in eight man pugs where i'm positive having coolant flushes and artillery strikes will be as much of a requirement as having at least three D-DC's with atleast a Raven 3L and a Splatcat.

 

[BattleMonkey]

The delay on the strikes I think will make them fairly hard to use outside of picking off assaults or snipers camping a spot. airstrikes apparently will have a smoke indicator on the ground so players will see the airstrikes coming and can get out of the way.

 

[Llyranor]

The real utility will probably be to prevent groups from hugging each other too much, since damage done to 8 mechs is significant, even if each individual mech doesn't take that much.

 

[ColonelSkills]

I'm also quite happy with the equalization to MC stuff. The P2W mentality can be crushed there.

Now, I'm concerned by arty/airstrikes. Even with flight times, 4sec global cooldown is too short. Sounds like you could expect arty dropping every 15secs or so. 20-30+ sec global cooldown sounds more like it to me.

I agree with the global cooldown. I'd like to see these things every minute, not four times per.

Still, pleased with the update on the whole and glad they listened.

 

[JWong]

My god. X-5's are like ultra stupid. It's like P2W if you're a good pilot. lol

Two X-5's ripped apart an Atlas like nothing, and I couldn't even help since my lasers did so little on them.

 

[Nickiepoo]

Really? I haven't been having any kind of a problem with them. They're just Jenners with 5 extra tons but no jumpjets. But then I HAVE been using a lot of large lasers and streaks, both of which rip them a new one.

 

[dionysus]

My god. X-5's are like ultra stupid. It's like P2W if you're a good pilot. lol

Two X-5's ripped apart an Atlas like nothing, and I couldn't even help since my lasers did so little on them.

Two lights or super fast mediums will rip apart any Atlas. When I run my Jenner or 3L I love seeing an Atlas by itself. I am much more afraid of other lights and mediums than I am of heavies and assaults.

I like the X-5 but right now it can't compete with a 3L and is equivalent to a Jenner.

Edit. And devs are soliciting feedback on rebalancing ECMs, which I interpret to mean that a much needed nerf is incoming. I've come to believe though that ECM rebalancing needs to be tied to streak SRM rebalancing. Good god if Streak SRM6s were implemented under the current rules.

 

[JWong]

Yeah! Nerf ECM so my 5 LRM Stalker will be more awesome. =3

 

[BattleMonkey]

ECM nerfing is needed. Just split ups it's effects into multiple items or such like it's supposed to represent on the table top game. Instead of one mech being the one ECM uber provider, a team would have to split up the responsibility of all the ECM capabilities.

And if anything buff AMS while they are at it.

 

[El'Kharn]

My win/loss ratio is almost at 50% but i'm still winning 90% of my matches..wtf

 

[Zaptruder]

My win/loss ratio is almost at 50% but i'm still winning 90% of my matches..wtf

Did you lose a buttload of matches early in your MWO career?

 

[El'Kharn]

Did you lose a buttload of matches early in your MWO career?

hmmm not really. The matches are getting harder on average now tho.

 

[Nickiepoo]

By 90% do you actually mean more like 60%?

 

[michaelius]

ECM nerfing is needed. Just split ups it's effects into multiple items or such like it's supposed to represent on the table top game. Instead of one mech being the one ECM uber provider, a team would have to split up the responsibility of all the ECM capabilities.

And if anything buff AMS while they are at it.

Yeah the ECM implementation is most stupid thing ever. I almost don't play since they introduced it.

It should only affect artemis and c3 systems when they are inroduced.