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[Parl]

Iwata said that doing a Wii Sports 2 would've been easy, but they didn't want to take the easy path. When Wii sales first were dropping, I thought that not doing the "easy" thing with a Wii Sports 2 was a mistake on Iwata's part. They did release a Brain Training 2 within a year from Brain Training 1's release, after all. Oh, well. I hope they eventually come out with a Wii Sports 2/Motorsports/etc.

The human resources used to make a title as delicate as Wii Sports 2 can be better used to be developing some more new like Wii fit, Wii Music, etc, to drive Wii's hardware sales. Wii Sports 2 would be selling to the Wii Sports 2 crowd; Wii fit will sell to some/most of the Wii Sports crowd, plus introduce Wii to a new audience.

 

[spwolf]

So PS3 am doomed since it outsold Wii, again?

 

[ziran]

One thing to be noticed from Sinobi, he mentioned that quite a lot of people bought M&S Olympics together with Wii in the weekend. So, it could be the booster application? :lol

That makes sense, Wii's sales are higher than I expected. I wonder if Mario and Sonic can manage good numbers over the next few weeks, maybe ~300K when all said and done.


Next week is going to be really interesting with Wii Fit. It's a difficult one to predict imo. The sticking point could be the Balance Board peripheral. I do think the Japanese home console market is desperate for more new stuff, but, will it be Wii Fit, I don't know.

 

[Defuser]

Next week is going to be really interesting with Wii Fit. It's a difficult one to predict imo. The sticking point could be the Balance Board peripheral. But, at this point, I have no idea how it's going to sell.

It can't be that hard since it has the power to attract casuals. If it ever bombs then GAF would have a meltdown.

 

[Parl]

I don't think Wiisports is a audiance expanding game though, Its still a waste of time to play Wiisports for a lot of people. WiiFit though is the equivaltent of Bran Training, it does something usefull while providing fun. I think Iwata pushed Miyamoto for a December release for WiiFit.

This may seem contrary to my previous post, but I can imagine Nintendo making Wii fit 2 or some other major audience expansion titles for the Wii balance board. The cost of entry for Wii fit is high, but if they follow a Guitar Hero model, they can sell the balance board, and thus, the games that require it, easier, as people can pay, let's say $150 for 3 Wii balance board games (and a balance board) instead of $80 for one Wii balance board game (plus a balance board.

 

[donny2112]

Obviously I can't talk about Sony doing well, even when they are doing well when it comes to Media-Create threads?

Talking about them doing better isn't the problem. It's when you somehow extrapolate that to indicate unrealistic (at this point) future trends that eyebrows start to raise.

Oh, and putting forth incorrect facts to support your positions doesn't help either.

 

[Crusade]

Wii Fit could go either way. It could do how Eyetoy did in Japan (bomba, about ~200k lifetime), or how Eyetoy did in Europe (omfg huge success, near 3 million). Peripheral devices don't have the best record in Japan. I think it's dependant on how wide an audience of people wanting to "get fit" is, and how many of those people are going to get such a relatively large, relatively costly application for it. The Japanese definitely are adverse to larger products.

Personally, I think it'll do about a million lifetime, similar to DDR on Playstation 1. But it won't be the next Brain-Age

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

As for the PSP, it's software sales outside of two big games (MHP2, CC) are almost non-existent. last page Donny had PSP software sales for this year at 3.7 million (Famitsu top 30), but MHP2 and CC are more then 2 million of that. MHP2 was a genuine success on the platform, but CC would have sold anywhere.

So this inspired more SQL. What I've done here is have it grab all the games from a certain platform that ranked in Famitsu's Top 30 this year, and summed the weekly sales values. Slight loss in that since I leave weekly sales blank for the two-week periods, some are left unaccounted for. Still, a close approximation for little extra work.

DS
PSP
PS3
Wii

The other platforms don't have 2007 data included yet.


EDIT: Oops, I wasn't including games ranked #30. Not that this would have a great effect, but I've modified it.

 

[spwolf]

Talking about them doing better isn't the problem. It's when you somehow extrapolate that to indicate unrealistic (at this point) future trends that eyebrows start to raise.

Oh, and putting forth incorrect facts to support your positions doesn't help either.

with GT5P coming out soon, I am not sure if you can call it "unrealistic" trend anymore. We are now in for 3 full weeks. It will most likely continue few weeks after GT5P is released, so I am really not sure if 2 months can be called "unrealistic future trend".

Of course, GT5P can go in the way SMG did and really either not move any consoles or move only small amounts of them, so we should not get ahead of ourselves. But it seems unlikely that with release of GT5P, PS3 sales will go down and not up.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I've disturbed the hive. Obviously I can't talk about Sony doing well, even when they are doing well when it comes to Media-Create threads?

donny mostly covered it, so I'm just going to add one thing. Grouping people together en masse and referring to them as "the hive" isn't going to win you any points either, even with those who are outside of what you would call "the hive".

You're new, so you have the choice. Are you going to be Tabris or are you going to be test_account? moku or schuelma? The choice is yours, but I encourage you to check the tags of the people in those pairings and choose accordingly.

 

[Crusade]

Talking about them doing better isn't the problem. It's when you somehow extrapolate that to indicate unrealistic (at this point) future trends that eyebrows start to raise.

Oh, and putting forth incorrect facts to support your positions doesn't help either.

Where have I indicated any future trends? I said it would be nice, if certain things happen. I haven't suggested anything will happen. All I've said about the PS3 is that I'd be happy to see it gaining healthy sales

 

[ziran]

It can't be that hard since it has the power to attract casuals. If it ever bombs then GAF would have a meltdown.

Wii Fit could go either way. It could do how Eyetoy did in Japan (bomba, about ~200k lifetime), or how Eyetoy did in Europe (omfg huge success, near 3 million). Peripheral devices don't have the best record in Japan. I think it's dependant on how wide an audience of people wanting to "get fit" is, and how many of those people are going to get such a relatively large, relatively costly application for it. The Japanese definitely are adverse to larger products.

Personally, I think it'll do about a million lifetime, similar to DDR on Playstation 1. But it won't be the next Brain-Age

Well, the Japanese home console market does need something new at the moment but what that will be, or even if it will happen, is uncertain. The market is somewhat unpredictable.

I don't see PS3 ever breaking out into a PS2 type success, that ship has sailed, and if Wii doesn't continue to attract the mass market in a big way I don't see any home console doing it. It's handhelds all the way for Japan (which I don't personally see as a problem).

 

[spwolf]

So this inspired more SQL. What I've done here is have it grab all the games from a certain platform that ranked in Famitsu's Top 30 this year, and summed the weekly sales values. Slight loss in that since I leave weekly sales blank for the two-week periods, some are left unaccounted for. Still, a close approximation for little extra work.

DS
PSP
PS3
Wii

The other platforms don't have 2007 data included yet.

can we have totals too?

 

[ksamedi]

Wii Fit could go either way. It could do how Eyetoy did in Japan (bomba, about ~200k lifetime), or how Eyetoy did in Europe (omfg huge success, near 3 million). Peripheral devices don't have the best record in Japan. I think it's dependant on how wide an audience of people wanting to "get fit" is, and how many of those people are going to get such a relatively large, relatively costly application for it. The Japanese definitely are adverse to larger products.

Personally, I think it'll do about a million lifetime, similar to DDR on Playstation 1. But it won't be the next Brain-Age

You underestimate the audiance of 40 and higher. These are the people that pay attention to health but don't really go to the gym that much. I think it will definitly act as Brain Training in that regard, What it could miss though is the addictive nature of Brain Training. It was something that got the word out and spread like a virus. I don't know if WiiFit has that too, but knowing Nintendo, it probably does.

 

[Weisheit]

Are we going to say this for every game? PS3 has yet to fall, I think it's a bit presumptious to assume it'll just plummet again once there's a week without a game

"every game"? "PS3 has yet to fall"?
Its been three weeks, in those three weeks PS3 had a new sku, a new colour, a price drop and two big games. So no we wont "say this for every game", people will stop saying it when its an actual unbroken trend.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Of course, GT5P can go in the way SMG did and really either not move any consoles or move only small amounts of them, so we should not get ahead of ourselves. But it seems unlikely that with release of GT5P, PS3 sales will go down and not up.

Nothing's going down from November to December. It's just a question of how up.

can we have totals too?

For most of those on the list the numbers would be about the same. Games released in 2007 would only have numbers from outside the Top 30 if they were included in the mid-year Top 100 lists. Games released in 2006 or before are another exception.

Easiest to just link to total to-date software sales; you can make whatever comparisons you wish.
DS
PSP
PS3
Wii

 

[Parl]

with GT5P coming out soon, I am not sure if you can call it "unrealistic" trend anymore. We are now in for 3 full weeks. It will most likely continue few weeks after GT5P is released, so I am really not sure if 2 months can be called "unrealistic future trend".

Of course, GT5P can go in the way SMG did and really either not move any consoles or move only small amounts of them, so we should not get ahead of ourselves. But it seems unlikely that with release of GT5P, PS3 sales will go down and not up.

1st week: Dynasty Warriors + first day of price drop/new colour
2nd week: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th day of price drop
3rd week: Winning Eleven + 9th-15th day of price drop
4th week: ?

This is not your typical Smash Bros bump with nothing coming after it. PS3 had a price drop, a new colour, and 2 huge franchises.

How many weeks of PS3's life will it has a price drop, a new colour and a huge franchise release. This was a 3-hit combo to the Japanese market, and sales will failed to reach its predecessors.

Wii sales are low too. We'll see if its 2nd big audience expansion game pushes demand high (Wii Sports was the first, and worked). Mario Galaxy sold Wii's to the remaining few core users who didn't already have a Wii.

 

[AnimeTheme]

Shinobi reported sold-out for PS3 version of WE08. Even Konami underestimated the selling power of the PS3 version.

 

[Crusade]

donny mostly covered it, so I'm just going to add one thing. Grouping people together en masse and referring to them as "the hive" isn't going to win you any points either, even with those who are outside of what you would call "the hive".

You're new, so you have the choice. Are you going to be Tabris or are you going to be test_account? moku or schuelma? The choice is yours, but I encourage you to check the tags of the people in those pairings and choose accordingly.

I feel kind of alone here, so I guess it's kinda natural to feel like I'm being taken on "en masse." I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers though

You underestimate the audiance of 40 and higher. These are the people that pay attention to health but don't really go to the gym that much. I think it will definitly act as Brain Training in that regard, What it could miss though is the addictive nature of Brain Training. It was something that got the word out and spread like a virus. I don't know if WiiFit has that too, but knowing Nintendo, it probably does.

I can't underestimate what we don't really know. Nobody can really say what demographic Wii Fit falls into yet, and how receptive they'll be to it. It could swing either way. But to be fair, Wii Fit hit a cord with the mainstream media who saw it, good odds are the rest of the mainstream audience will feel similarly

"every game"? "PS3 has yet to fall"?
Its been three weeks, in those three weeks PS3 had a new sku, a new colour, a price drop and two big games. So no we wont "say this for every game", people will stop saying it when its an actual unbroken trend.

Well these are the weeks I'm talking about, last week it was "well PS3 just had Musou, things will be different next week", and before that it was "well PSP just had new colours, next week Wii will be on top again." I'm not saying it's a trend yet, I would be surprised if Wii wasn't on top next week - but this line has been repeated

 

[f@luS]

Shinobi reported sold-out for PS3 version of WE08. Even Konami underestimated the selling power of the PS3 version.

I believe this could be right. Since DAY one was like 150K PS2 / 105K PS3 and weekly its 300K PS2 / 150K PS3......
it was the same here in europe (at least in france) PS3 PES was impossible to find the first 2 weeks

 

[Kandinsky]

Nice to see the SDF back to these threads

 

[Hammer24]

Shinobi reported sold-out for PS3 version of WE08. Even Konami underestimated the selling power of the PS3 version.

Too bad for Konami. I figure given the games quality, that there will be used copies very soon, thus killing the legs.
Vinnk, maybe you could check for your next report?

 

[marc^o^]

I believe this could be right. Since DAY one was like 150K PS2 / 105K PS3 and weekly its 300K PS2 / 150K PS3......
it was the same here in europe (at least in france) PS3 PES was impossible to find the first 2 weeks

Isn't it a new low for the series? It used to be a front loaded yearly million seller. Or did it have legs?

 

[f@luS]

Isn't it a new low for the series? It used to be a front loaded yearly million seller. Or did it have legs?

it is a bit low though..... we can say its a 450k 1st week, but with the possibility of ps3 version shortage, it could have been 500k maybe? anyway , the game doesnt deserve much better sales....

 

[Crusade]

1st week: Dynasty Warriors + first day of price drop/new colour
2nd week: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th day of price drop
3rd week: Winning Eleven + 9th-15th day of price drop
4th week: ?

This is not your typical Smash Bros bump with nothing coming after it. PS3 had a price drop, a new colour, and 2 huge franchises.

How many weeks of PS3's life will it has a price drop, a new colour and a huge franchise release. This was a 3-hit combo to the Japanese market, and sales will failed to reach its predecessors.

Wii sales are low too. We'll see if its 2nd big audience expansion game pushes demand high (Wii Sports was the first, and worked). Mario Galaxy sold Wii's to the remaining few core users who didn't already have a Wii.

Woah. You've gotta give PS3 a little leniance here, "hit the numbers of it's predecessors"? That's a bit unrealistic of an expectation - especially as PS3 had a perfectly viable counterpart in PS2 to contend with in PES.

I wonder how Musou will do for legs. Anybody got sales trends for how they do over time? It may become the game to buy with your PS3, that I was just saying PS3 doesn't have

I'd agree, with you that this is probably the most viable spot for PS3 to make a turn-around considering both the price drop, new colour model and three big games. It reminds me of DS, except none of the games could really be the next Nintendogs.

 

[schuelma]

You're new, so you have the choice. Are you going to be Tabris or are you going to be test_account? moku or schuelma? The choice is yours, but I encourage you to check the tags of the people in those pairings and choose accordingly.

Wait, you're lumping me in with moku? I full admit I'm a Wii guy, but I try and be somewhat balanced. I guess I'm doomed

 

[schuelma]

Shinobi reported sold-out for PS3 version of WE08. Even Konami underestimated the selling power of the PS3 version.

Very good news for Sony IMO. PS3 just had a much stronger PS3/PS2 debut than anything the Wii has done.

Verrrrrry interesting

 

[Grecco]

Wait, you're lumping me in with moku? I full admit I'm a Wii guy, but I try and be somewhat balanced. I guess I'm doomed

Hes comparing you to Moku hence your more balanced. I think. I dont speak Segata

 

[ksamedi]

Wait, you're lumping me in with moku? I full admit I'm a Wii guy, but I try and be somewhat balanced. I guess I'm doomed

I didn't notice you were a big Nintendo fanboy if that makes you feel better.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Wait, you're lumping me in with moku? I full admit I'm a Wii guy, but I try and be somewhat balanced. I guess I'm doomed

Yes, to clarify, there were two pairings there, a Sony-biased pairing and a Nintendo-biased pairing. Then, within each pairing, there was a nutters-butters who gets banned a lot and a reasonable, rational poster who can get past their own preferences and discuss things properly.

 

[Grecco]

Yes, to clarify, there were two pairings there, a Sony-biased pairing and a Nintendo-biased pairing. Then, within each pairing, there was a nutters-butters who gets banned a lot and a reasonable, rational poster who can get past their own preferences and discuss things properly.

Moku is more of an Xfan than a Ninthing though at least recently

 

[schuelma]

Yes, to clarify, there were two pairings there, a Sony-biased pairing and a Nintendo-biased pairing. Then, within each pairing, there was a nutters-butters who gets banned a lot and a reasonable, rational poster who can get past their own preferences and discuss things properly.

Thank you for the clarification.

Just for that, I'm going to go buy TWO copies of Ghost Squad!

 

[ksamedi]

Moku is more of an Xfan than a Ninthing though at least recently

Wha?

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Moku is more of an Xfan than a Ninthing though at least recently

Really? I missed the last joke character staff meeting. I was sick.

 

[Magicpaint]

Really? I missed the last joke character staff meeting. I was sick.

:lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Thank you for the clarification.

Just for that, I'm going to go buy TWO copies of Ghost Squad!

Ghost Squad is waaay more fun than it should be. I'm glad it was put out at a discount price or I might not have grabbed it.

 

[Lightning]

Too bad for Konami. I figure given the games quality, that there will be used copies very soon, thus killing the legs.
Vinnk, maybe you could check for your next report?

The games quality? It's already been patched, fixing alot of the issues.

And i am pretty sure Konami will have more PS3 version copies available pretty quickly.

 

[Parl]

Woah. You've gotta give PS3 a little leniance here, "hit the numbers of it's predecessors"? That's a bit unrealistic of an expectation - especially as PS3 had a perfectly viable counterpart in PS2 to contend with in PES.

I wonder how Musou will do for legs. Anybody got sales trends for how they do over time? It may become the game to buy with your PS3, that I was just saying PS3 doesn't have

I'd agree, with you that this is probably the most viable spot for PS3 to make a turn-around considering both the price drop, new colour model and three big games. It reminds me of DS, except none of the games could really be the next Nintendogs.

I meant massively missed the numbers of its predecessors. PES isn't as bad though - I imagine it's a very core Sony user-base kind of game, which makes up much of the current PS3 market.

After the Musou franchise became established, it was really front loaded, iirc.

I'm not stating that this is PS3 making a turn around, I'm saying that despite PS3 getting a freaking price drop with a while model, and 2 new huge franchise installments, its sales are 50k.

Price drops cause front-loaded bumps most of the time (more advertising can help this be much less front-loaded) and games without massive legs don't cause sustainable increases in hardware sales.

This is just a 3-hit combo Gundabump from what I can see so far. The holidays will be another part of the combo. Luckily, it has some big games next year too, but not one EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

 

[schuelma]

Ghost Squad is waaay more fun than it should be. I'm glad it was put out at a discount price or I might not have grabbed it.

Yeah, I might pick it up after the Holiday's. Great price point.

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

Famistu

DS Lite - 115,000

Dragon Quest IV (DS) - 600,000

Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (PS2) - 300,000
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (PS3) - 140,000
Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (360) - 10,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DSL 116,000
PSP 89,000
PS2 15,000
PS3 58,000
Wii 47,000
360 5,800

DS up once again and these Dragon Quest IV figures are difinitely incredible for a first week. Wii up and PS3 up, but I would wait for Media Create before say that PS3 > Wii...

And these PSP numbers simply make no sense at all.

1. Dragon Quest IV (DS) - 602,000
2. Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (PS2) - 305,000
3. Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (PS3) - 145,000
4. Mario Party DS (DS) - 97,000（454,000）
5. Mega Man Star Force 2 (DS) - 84,000
6. Final Fantasy XI Altana (PS2) - 83,000
7. Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (Wii) - 67,000
8. Dinosaur King - 7 Pieces (DS) - 53,000
9. ぱちんこ必殺仕事人III パチってちょんまげ達人13 (PS2) - 42,000
10.Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) - 37,000

other new games
11.ワンタメ ミュージックチャンネル どこでもスタイル (DS)　34,000
18.FFXI360　13000
20.WE360　12000
外.AIR (PSP)　6900
外.Dokapon Kingdom (PS2)　6800
外.四八　6500
外.Final Fantasy XI: The Vana'diel Collection (PS2)　4600
外.Medal of Honor: Airborne (360)　3500
外.Final Fantasy XI: The Vana'diel Collection (360)　3200
外.Gegege no Kitarou (Wii)　2000
外.Kouenji Joshi Soccer 2: Koi wa Nebagiba Kouenji (DS)　1600

Super Mario Galaxy sold almost exactly as last week.... This is a good news, because this could be its stabilisation point until Christmas. Ah: Mario & Sonic at The Olimpics didn't bomb as I expected after all.

 

[Evlar]

I wonder how Musou will do for legs. Anybody got sales trends for how they do over time? It may become the game to buy with your PS3, that I was just saying PS3 doesn't have

Musou titles have terrible legs if I remember correctly. You'll need to look elsewhere for a killer app. GT5 for instance.

 

[schuelma]

This is just a 3-hit combo Gundabump from what I can see so far. The holidays will be another part of the combo. Luckily, it has some big games next year too, but not one EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

I agree with you that PS3 hardware sales aren't all that impressive.

But, I must say Wii hardware sales are disappointing right now as well. Galaxy, RE:UC, and Mario and Sonic all released, holiday season is starting, and its not getting above 45K.

Wii Fit needs to be huge.

 

[Crusade]

The games quality? It's already been patched, fixing alot of the issues.

And i am pretty sure Konami will have more PS3 version copies available pretty quickly.

Man, it's really sad when console games have become like this. Seriously, patches?

 

[donny2112]

I wonder how Musou will do for legs. Anybody got sales trends for how they do over time?

PS2 Shin Sangoku Musou     164K   30K    19K   ...   302K (20001231)
PS2 Shin Sangoku Musou 2   241K  122K    78K   ...   1.03 million (20021229)
PS2 Shin Sangoku Musou 3   723K  149K    73K   ...   1.18 million (20031228)
PS2 Shin Sangoku Musou 4   561K  128K    71K   ...   918K (20051225)

[b]PS3 Shin Sangoku Musou 5   176K   73K    31K   ...   ~281K (and growing)[/b]

.

 

[Crusade]

I meant massively missed the numbers of its predecessors. PES isn't as bad though - I imagine it's a very core Sony user-base kind of game, which makes up much of the current PS3 market.

After the Musou franchise became established, it was really front loaded, iirc.

I'm not stating that this is PS3 making a turn around, I'm saying that despite PS3 getting a freaking price drop with a while model, and 2 new huge franchise installments, its sales are 50k.

Price drops cause front-loaded bumps most of the time (more advertising can help this be much less front-loaded) and games without massive legs don't cause sustainable increases in hardware sales.

This is just a 3-hit combo Gundabump from what I can see so far. The holidays will be another part of the combo. Luckily, it has some big games next year too, but not one EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

I guess it could be doing better. But expectations must be tempered when you consider what PS3 was doing before. It pushed up PS3 considerably, then it's come to 50k. If it levels just a bit lower than this, then I think the 3-hit-combo will have done a very effective job. We'll have to see after Christmas to where it levels out though. I think going through Christmas and New Year sales, then running right into the January release of DMC4 will be good for PS3 too

 

[Evlar]

@ donny's numbers:

Yeah, pretty short half-life with the exception of Musou 2. I assume that got a budget re-release or pack-in or somesuch?

 

[Lightning]

Man, it's really sad when console games have become like this. Seriously, patches?

Assassins Creed is also getting a patch.

Konami didn't do this on purpose and they said they didn't know how it happened. It's fixed now anyway, so Japan would be uneffected by it, it was Europe that suffered.

 

[donny2112]

@ donny's numbers:

Yeah, pretty short half-life with the exception of Musou 2. I assume that got a budget re-release or pack-in or somesuch?

I don't include any budget re-releases with the numbers. Famitsu has a different title for those (usually <game name> (PS2 the Best)), so I track them separately.

Musou 2 had a bigger second week relative to it's launch week than the others and stayed in the charts for about 6 months from September until March (Musou 3/4 were in only 2-3 months and neither of those lasted through a New Year's buying period). With how low Musou 1 was, Musou 2 was probably the game that put Dynasty Warriors into the upper echelon of games for sales. The subsequent releases, therefore, all had much larger launches.

 

[Crusade]

.

Seems like a fairly similar drop so far. But I think there's the chance it has longer, more consistent legs. Obviously a big segment of the fanbase are still without it. And PS3 competition isn't exactly as stiff as PS2

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I agree with you that PS3 hardware sales aren't all that impressive.

But, I must say Wii hardware sales are disappointing right now as well. Galaxy, RE:UC, and Mario and Sonic all released, holiday season is starting, and its not getting above 45K.

This has become a weekly favorite recently, but here is (Famitsu) Wii 2007 and PS2 2001-2003 in November.

Official Famitsu numbers being a bit behind these early rounded things we get, this week would be week 4 on that list; well ahead of PS2 2001 and 2002. I'm not sure what was pushing PS2 so much in earlier November 2003; GCN and GBA software was at the top of the charts. Late November had Hot Shots Golf 4, though.