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[birdchili]

No, it probably won't happen until a new console is released. Things like 1:1 controls would add a lot of potential.

this is what i meant. there's a lot of room for better motion controls with current hardware (and i do think coding for it is analogous to the hd-system's move to parallel architectures (ie: really, really tricky)), but there are huge limits to what can be done with the remote as it is.

there is no real incentive to try to do anything really innovative with the Wii.

i have great faith that this statement will be ultimately proven hopelessly naive.

 

[jesusraz]

Shame to see Chocobo MD disappear again after creeping back in last week. Vinnk, are there many copies available in stores (either used or new)?

It is BBA actually since Dengeki has the game at #15 too, going from #88 the previous week. The DS version is not back however and the original Brain Training is not back in the top 50 which is very surprising. The popularity of these games has surely decreased a lot. Nintendo sure can't rely on these to be system sellers in the future like Mario and Pokemon have been for generations.

Interesting. Seems Brain Training slipped back into the chart as well, whilst MBT jumped considerably. I wonder if the three were being promoted together last week. BBA Wii has the potential to grow further since it didn't do as well as expected when first released. Maybe the renewed interest in Wii and its casual games will help it like it seems to be doing with WarioWare: SM.

 

[liuelson]

The way gaming is going, you're going to be seeing a lot of ideas you couldn't even imagine. Developers need to be smart and continually evaluate the market because if your choices are based on old principles, you're probably not going to make it.

As a developer, messing around with motion controls might not be financially feasable. You're going to see a lot more inovation with the controls from the hacking movement. There are already plenty of amazing modifications done - some allowing for Minority Report like tracking and so on. Basically my point is that there is no real incentive to try to do anything really innovative with the Wii. The types of games that are selling aren't innovating or anything. Things like Wii Sports, Carnival Games and so on. They're just very basic games - like Duck Hunt or Donkey Kong on the NES.

I was following your argument right up until these 2 points. In the first, you're arguing that the market incentives are for developers to take more risks; in the second, you're arguing that the market incentives are for the developers to take less risks.

The Wii is the market leader in Japan in both hardware and software. Does this changed market from the PS2 generation encourage or discourage risk?

 

[charlequin]

Why should they?

Because a system with a first-party lineup like Nintendo's plus fat, happy third parties filling in genres and game styles that Nintendo can't or won't becomes an unstoppable juggernaut like the DS, while a system sold purely on first-party titles with a garbage wasteland of third-party stuff turns into... well, I don't know what, but it's a system where easy money is just sitting on the table for competitors to take.

It's definitely not smart to hubristically rely on developers to get pwned and crawl back to you; the leverage that would give you over them works as a deterrent to make that scenario even less desirable. If Nintendo's only plan for getting third-party games on the Wii is "they'll have no choice!" then I think we'll continue to see a lot of evidence of exactly how much choice developers do have.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I'm not going to predict what Namco expected SCLegends to sell since the inner workings of their corporations are completely lost to me, but I get a hunch they weren't expecting sub-10K sales.

Then they should have made a decent game. If they wanted it to sell greater than the sub 10k area maybe they should have put some real effort and money into it. You really can't blame people for not buying a game that gets shitty reviews.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I don't know. Other systems certainly aren't seeing a dearth of 3rd party games, so I don't see a need why they should bother.

I never understood why the onus was on Nintendo to market 3rd parties' shitty attempts. If a 3rd party doesn't invest in or market their games on the Wii, why do they expect sales like Nintendo gets?

I think this is particularly funny considering sales age loves to rag on Tales of the Tempest for being a half assed attempt on DS. If it's unacceptable on the hottest system in Japan, what would make it acceptable on the Wii?

 

[iidesuyo]

while a system sold purely on first-party titles with a garbage wasteland of third-party stuff turns into...

...a Game Cube with different controls and awesome hardware sales.

 

[Frillen]

Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA. Doesn't matter. It's an extremely niche title that would've bombed even on the 360.
Chocobo Wii deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. It still sold ok and about the same as the DS version.
SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. I think over 150k in the US alone is enough for this title.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask. They bombed in Japan yes, but so did the DS version. Sold well in the US though.
Wii Love Golf, by all accounts, is an A/B level title. Ok, so this one bombed, but it didn't sell that much worse than Super Swing Golf.
Nights deserves higher sales. It bombed in Japan, but we don't know how it fared in the US.
Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k. Niche title like Zack & Wiki. Would've bombed on the 360 as well.

 

[PantherLotus]

while the eloquence of my suggestion isn't there, Frillen hath nailed it on the head. These games would be bombing on any system.

 

[Pureauthor]

I never understood why the onus was on Nintendo to market 3rd parties' shitty attempts. If a 3rd party doesn't invest in or market their games on the Wii, why do they expect sales like Nintendo gets?

I think this is particularly funny considering sales age loves to rag on Tales of the Tempest for being a half assed attempt on DS. If it's unacceptable on the hottest system in Japan, what would make it acceptable on the Wii?

Wasn't this entire argument about how to get 3rd parties to support the Wii? I honestly don't care much about their performance or where they go, since I'm already sitting pretty on a set of game systems that'll last me quite a while yet. But those who want the Wii to receive more 3rd party support should start arguing why this should occur, shouldn't they?

 

[Core407]

I was following your argument right up until these 2 points. In the first, you're arguing that the market incentives are for developers to take more risks; in the second, you're arguing that the market incentives are for the developers to take less risks.

The Wii is the market leader in Japan in both hardware and software. Does this changed market from the PS2 generation encourage or discourage risk?

My argument is that the Wii is bringing in a segment of new gamers that don't want innovation and as a result, developers are going to be releasing more casual titles that appeal to this segment. This is in itself preventing a lot of innovation with the Wii mote/nunchuck. You can make an argument for the gamers not wanting innovation on the PS3/360 (marine bald shooters), but the Wii embraces innovation and uses it as a selling point.

The comment about small developers was related to someone mentioning rising development costs on PS3/360. My belief is that while costs will rise, the small developers will have to change with the times and embrace relatively new forms of distribution which inturn should cause them to reevaluate their stance on game development and change their approach.

Take for example movies created within game worlds. Eventually the tech will reach a point where consumers will be just as interested in watching as they would be in playing the game. So what can developers do with this? How about create a scripted runthrough of a game, cut down and edit all of the video and create a story from there. Sell it for $5-10 and you've found a new income source. Seen the GTA4 trailers? They're very cinematic and very well done. Sooner or later they're not going to be just trailers.

 

[Deku]

Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA. Doesn't matter. It's an extremely niche title that would've bombed even on the 360.
Chocobo Wii deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. It still sold ok and about the same as the DS version.
SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. I think over 150k in the US alone is enough for this title.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask. They bombed in Japan yes, but so did the DS version. Sold well in the US though.
Wii Love Golf, by all accounts, is an A/B level title. Ok, so this one bombed, but it didn't sell that much worse than Super Swing Golf.
Nights deserves higher sales. It bombed in Japan, but we don't know how irt fared in the US.
Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k.Niche title like Zack & Wiki. Would've bombed on the 360 as well.

It's a good game, but it's not an AAA. By your standards, there would be a lot of AAA games and more precisely many more AAA games bombing.

This would be a completely standard fare if say, it were to be put on the DS or the PS2.
It's status is merely enhanced because its about the only good game out in months and months of garbage third party releases.

 

[PantherLotus]

Wasn't this entire argument about how to get 3rd parties to support the Wii? I honestly don't care much about their performance or where they go, since I'm already sitting pretty on a set of game systems that'll last me quite a while yet. But those who want the Wii to receive more 3rd party support should start arguing why this should occur, shouldn't they?

No, that's not the argument. The argument is:

1. Whether or not 3rd parties are faring that badly at all.
2. Whether or not they actually deserve it.

The marketing sub-conversation is irrelevant except for the fact that it isn't working. Also note that the majority of these games that are bombing are actually new IPs, something we've debated that Nintendo never got enough of.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

agreed?

No, imo 3rd parties don't know about things like respect. They are here to milk our money milking systems, games and developers...


I know the first time didn't quite surprise anyone but the PS3 60GB scam in amazon is just...horrible.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B000JJ9K3U/
84,800Y from a reseller. Used units from users starting at 69700Y....

 

[Stumpokapow]

Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA. Doesn't matter. It's an extremely niche title that would've bombed even on the 360.

I'm not defending the 360's japanese sales, dude. It's possible to say "Wii 3rd-party sales are bad" on an absolute, universal scale without simultaneously believing that another platform is better.

SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. I think over 150k in the US alone is enough for this title.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask. They bombed in Japan yes, but so did the DS version. Sold well in the US though.
Nights deserves higher sales. It bombed in Japan, but we don't know how it fared in the US.

We're not talking about the US and I have no idea why the US would ever be brought up in this conversation.

Then they should have made a decent game. If they wanted it to sell greater than the sub 10k area maybe they should have put some real effort and money into it. You really can't blame people for not buying a game that gets shitty reviews.

It's not a black/white situation. It's not "All AAA games should sell 1 million+, all other games deserve 0 copies". Yes, shitty games deserve to sell fewer copies than good games. Everyone gets this. What we don't get is why 6/10, 7/10, and 8/10 games are all selling fewer than 50,000 copies lifetime and people are responding to this with "SHOULD HAVE MADE A 9/10 GAME! SHOULD HAVE MADE A 10/10 GAME!"

Shinobi PS2. Released in 2002. Solid 6.5-7.5/10. 200k+ copies sold
Victorious Boxers PS2. Released in 2000. Based on a B-grade licence, 7.5/10 or so game. 300k+ copies sold.
Unlimited Saga PS2. 2002. Piece of shit. 440k copies sold.
Battle Stadium DON GCN. 76k
Doshin the Giant GCN. 118k
SIMPLE SERIES DS VOLUME 1: MAHJONG. 33k Released before the DS exploded, no dev time, no unique qualities at all, poor reviews, and not even that cheap. Still running laps around SCL. When Simple series is outselling you, you know you have a major problem.
QuickSpot DS. 117k.
Oneechanbara vorteX Xbox 360. 18k.
Bullet Width Xbox 360. 16k.
Comic Party Dreamcast. 77k
Derby Time PSP. 70k.
WTF PSP. 50k Basically a tenth rate WarioWare knockoff. No budget, no marketing.

The PS2 has 7 Pachi-Slot games that have broken 200k. These are categorically awful, and there are literally trillions of them on the market.

Yeah, if developers released nothing but AAAA titles with multi-million marketing budgets, they'd do well. They shouldn't have to. Even 6/10 and 7/10 games with no marketing deserve to sell better than 10k.

Furthermore, given that some of these games are only selling through 30% of their admittedly pathetic shipment numbers, we have cases of companies expecting their software to bomb, and having it bomb even harder than they expect. That's truly awful, when a company says "Well, this is going to tank" and it proceeds to tank harder than anyone could ever imagine.


I think what will happen is similar to the DS. It'll be a combination of 3rd parties producing higher quality games and the market starting to buy more games, even the 6/10 and 7/10 ones.

 

[ksamedi]

So when are we going to argue why the games bombed instad of blaming the Wii userbase for choosing Nintendo software over these titles. Everyone here who thinks that Wii third party sales are poor because of the Wii userbase can't even give an argumant why.

 

[Count Dookkake]

My argument is that the Wii is bringing in a segment of new gamers that don't want innovation and as a result, developers are going to be releasing more casual titles that appeal to this segment.

Wrong. It is bringing in people who are responding to innovation. These people obivously have a different opinion than you of what is innovative.

 

[jarrod]

Knowing Scamo, they likely expected 500k for SCL. :lol

 

[AnimeTheme]

Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA. Doesn't matter. It's an extremely niche title that would've bombed even on the 360.
Chocobo Wii deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. It still sold ok and about the same as the DS version.
SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level. I think over 150k in the US alone is enough for this title.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask. They bombed in Japan yes, but so did the DS version. Sold well in the US though.
Wii Love Golf, by all accounts, is an A/B level title. Ok, so this one bombed, but it didn't sell that much worse than Super Swing Golf.
Nights deserves higher sales. It bombed in Japan, but we don't know how it fared in the US.
Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k. Niche title like Zack & Wiki. Would've bombed on the 360 as well.

I see some terrible spinnings here when you imagine titles like Zack and Wiki and Kororinpa on 360.

Also, this is MC thread and we are talking about the sales in Japan. How these titles will do in the US do not really mean anything here.

 

[Core407]

Wrong. It is bringing in people who are responding to innovation. These people obivously have a different opinion than you of what is innovative.

Apart from Wii Sports, what is so innovative about the games?

 

[schuelma]

Apart from Wii Sports, what is so innovative about the games?

You don't see how Wii Fit is innovative?

Or hell, Galaxy?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Apart from Wii Sports, what is so innovative about the games?

Budget
Accessibility
waggle
etc

Some people think the use of these is innovative. You do not.

We'll see who is right in the long run. I'm gonna side with the creators of the d-pad for now.

 

[Stumpokapow]

You don't see how Wii Fit is innovative?

Or hell, Galaxy?

You guys arguing with Core407 that the Wii is innovative is like me trying to tell ksamedi that the Wii could use higher 3rd party sales. Wanna switch arguments?

 

[Pureauthor]

Budget
Accessibility
waggle
etc

Some people think the use of these is innovative. You do not.

We'll see who is right in the long run. I'm gonna side with the creators of the d-pad for now.

Oh, you have insight into their opinion? Cause, see, the creators of the d-pad haven't been seen on the gaming scene for... well, a very long time now.

 

[ksamedi]

Apart from Wii Sports, what is so innovative about the games?

The versatalisy is amazing. In one game its a normal controller in the next game its a gun and in the other game its a tennis racket. It really is an aqmazing piece of hardware.

 

[Core407]

You don't see how Wii Fit is innovative?

Or hell, Galaxy?

Wii Fit innovative? Yeah I guess, but it's innovation is aimed at casuals and nothing more. As a gamer who was raised on Genesis and owned a multiple consoles every generation, where is the innovation for me. My whole point is that Nintendo is marketing towards a different market - one that is interested in completely different things from actual gamers.

 

[ksamedi]

You guys arguing with Core407 that the Wii is innovative is like me trying to tell ksamedi that the Wii could use higher 3rd party sales. Wanna switch arguments?

You still can't give a reason as to why 5 million people don't buy third party games. I'm open for anything.

 

[Frillen]

We're not talking about the US and I have no idea why the US would ever be brought up in this conversation.

Then why did you mention SSX Blur? Did you seriously think that that title would sell over 20k or something in Japan?

I see some terrible spinnings here when you imagine titles like Zack and Wiki and Kororinpa on 360.

How is that spinning? Zack & Wiki was pretty much send to die. It was dead on arrival. Everyone expected it to bombed. Of course it matters how it would've performed on other systems. That IS the point basically. Zack & Wiki is a niche games that only sell to a small niche group. The title would NOT have sold better on the 360 nor the PS3.

Also, this is MC thread and we are talking about the sales in Japan. How these titles will do in the US do not really mean anything here.

So again, why did he include SSX Blur?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Wii Fit innovative? Yeah I guess, but it's innovation is aimed at casuals and nothing more. As a gamer who was raised on Genesis and owned a multiple consoles every generation, where is the innovation for me. My whole point is that Nintendo is marketing towards a different market - one that is interested in completely different things from actual gamers.

yeah mario galaxy is a nongame

 

[mclem]

Sorry, I meant traditional next-gen games.

Is there an oxymoron-of-the-month award?

 

[schuelma]

Wii Fit innovative? Yeah I guess, but it's innovation is aimed at casuals and nothing more. As a gamer who was raised on Genesis and owned a multiple consoles every generation, where is the innovation for me. My whole point is that Nintendo is marketing towards a different market - one that is interested in completely different things from actual gamers.

The balance board in Wii Fit holds a ton of promise in the "real games" sports genres wouldn't you agree?

 

[Core407]

yeah mario galaxy is a nongame

Mario Galaxy definitely innovates. There are a handful of innovative titles aimed at gamers and most of them have bombed sales-wise (3rd party games here). What does that tell developers?

 

[DiddyBop]

Once again, ppl are listening to music and watching their anime on their psp,not pirating. pirating a psp slim is a complicated process,much more so than just getting an r4 and throwing some games on it for the DS,yet the DS software sales are huge,thats cause the DS is a gaming system frist,while the psp can be used for most of your multimedia needs. you'd have to be really ignorant to think that 4 million psp users in japan know how to install a custom firmware. they are just too busy doing other things with their psp to be bothered with playing games.

 

[schuelma]

Mario Galaxy definitely innovates. There are a handful of innovative titles aimed at gamers and most of them have bombed sales-wise (3rd party games here). What does that tell developers?

Like what, Opoona with its revolutionary nunchuck control?

The only possible game you might have a point with is Zack and Wiki, which as others have pointed out, would have been a hard sell on any system.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Knowing Scamo, they likely expected 500k for SCL. :lol

I hope we get their estimates for the Family series...1m each?

1/31 Family Sky
3/6 Family Jockey
3/27 Family Stadium
TBA Family Trainer

 

[Core407]

The balance board in Wii Fit holds a ton of promise in the "real games" sports genres wouldn't you agree?

Like which sport? I can't think of too many. Snowboarding, skiiing, skate boarding, etc. Yeah, I like the potentials of it but the people have been talking about the potentials of the Wii since its announcement.

 

[schuelma]

Like which sport? I can't think of too many. Snowboarding, skiiing, skate boarding, etc. Yeah, I like the potentials of it but the people have been talking about the potentials of the Wii since its announcement.

Yeah I'm done with this one.

 

[Core407]

Like what, Opoona with its revolutionary nunchuck control?

The only possible game you might have a point with is Zack and Wiki, which as others have pointed out, would have been a hard sell on any system.

Take Pro Evo for example. With the cursor, you point at where you want to pass/shoot/etc. It might not be a huge thing on paper, but I imagine it completely changes the way you have to play the game.

The Wii was sold on promises and so far, very few things have really validated those expectations.

 

[Frillen]

Mario Galaxy definitely innovates. There are a handful of innovative titles aimed at gamers and most of them have bombed sales-wise (3rd party games here). What does that tell developers?

Those third-party titles also lacks several things compared to the average 360/PS3 third-party game.

1. A high budget
2. Ads
3. Hype
4. Most importantly; quality

 

[Core407]

Yeah I'm done with this one.

Huh? I don't get if you're arguing with me or agreeing with me. :lol

The Wii Fit seems to be a basic form of what we've seen in arcades where you stand on the snow board or skate board, etc.

 

[schuelma]

Huh? I don't get if you're arguing with me or agreeing with me. :lol

The Wii Fit seems to be a basic form of what we've seen in arcades where you stand on the snow board or skate board, etc.

I'm done arguing with you. Not worth it

 

[Core407]

Those third-party titles also lacks several things compared to the average 360/PS3 third-party game.

1. A high budget
2. Ads
3. Hype
4. Most importantly; quality

Great. As a consumer, I don't really care what the cause of it is. My main concern is with solving it. I don't buy games or systems to be nice to the creators - I buy them for my own self indulgence. Are you trying to excuse the Wii for not having the 3rd party quality titles? It doesn't matter whose fault it is. It's a fact and that's all that matters for a consumer.

 

[Core407]

I'm done arguing with you. Not worth it

Mind explaining what exactly was wrong with my response. (The Wii fit one) I thought it was pretty much spot on with the potentials.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Wasn't this entire argument about how to get 3rd parties to support the Wii? I honestly don't care much about their performance or where they go, since I'm already sitting pretty on a set of game systems that'll last me quite a while yet. But those who want the Wii to receive more 3rd party support should start arguing why this should occur, shouldn't they?

The argument as I brought it up was why people think that the Wii`s 3rd party sales are so bad as to abandon the platform. When I asked for examples, I got Soul Calibur Legends and Nights to go along with Chocobo Tales and We Love Golf. Yes, these titles did abysmally, that`s not up for dispute, but this is not a crop of titles I would look at when deciding whether or not i`m going to continue to support the Wii. What did we truly expect these titles to sell? Other people look at NMH and laugh and scream bomba, but the predecessor did what, 12K on the PS2? How often are we going to blame Nintendo for poorly marketed, quickly constructed games?

To answer your question, Nintendo is doing everything they need to get 3rd party developers to support the Wii. They`ve created an environment where titles built to take advantage of the system (Like Umbrella Chronicles and DQS) and are marketed well thrive. That`s all they SHOULD HAVE TO DO. Back in the Gamecube gen, developers complaints were that the install base wasn`t there to bother with development, and now it is, not to mention that both the PS3 and 360 are doing abysmally, and even the mighty PS2 is slowing down. It`s all fun to say `Hell, put everything on the DS!`but would any developer in their right mind completely forgo a super hot market like the Wii because 2nd and 3rd tier titles bomb on the system?

 

[Frillen]

Great. As a consumer, I don't really care what the cause of it is. My main concern is with solving it. I don't buy games or systems to be nice to the creators - I buy them for my own self indulgence. Are you trying to excuse the Wii for not having the 3rd party quality titles? It doesn't matter whose fault it is. It's a fact and that's all that matters for a consumer.

That's exactly what I think, and personally, I think it's a pretty damn good "excuse" along with the other 3 points I made.

 

[jarrod]

Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k.

Oh come on. I liked the game and love Hudson, but this was throughly no-budget shovelware... it's barely C-level.

I hope we get their estimates for the Family series...1m each?

1/31 Family Sky
3/6 Family Jockey
3/27 Family Stadium
TBA Family Trainer

Honestly, this wouldn't surprise me! :lol

I think Famista's the only one that might not tank realistically... how well did the GBA/GC/DS Famistas do? At least Scamco's sure to bank by reusing the engine for Mario Baseball.

 

[Core407]

That's exactly what I think, and personally, I think it's a pretty damn good "excuse" along with the other 3 points I made.

That's fine. I mean, I'm not disagreeing with it. Still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have worthwhile third party support and as a consumer, I can't play an excuse on my Wii.

I'm sure others could and would make the argument that most people don't buy third party titles on Nintendo platforms and that's why you don't see the big titles.

Or the argument that Nintendo basically segmented themselves from Sony and MS on purpose to grab the new market that is mainly interested in Ninty products and thus, increasing their sales ten fold.

 

[Pureauthor]

The argument as I brought it up was why people think that the Wii`s 3rd party sales are so bad as to abandon the platform. When I asked for examples, I got Soul Calibur Legends and Nights to go along with Chocobo Tales and We Love Golf. Yes, these titles did abysmally, that`s not up for dispute, but this is not a crop of titles I would look at when deciding whether or not i`m going to continue to support the Wii. What did we truly expect these titles to sell? Other people look at NMH and laugh and scream bomba, but the predecessor did what, 12K on the PS2? How often are we going to blame Nintendo for poorly marketed, quickly constructed games?

To answer your question, Nintendo is doing everything they need to get 3rd party developers to support the Wii. They`ve created an environment where titles built to take advantage of the system (Like Umbrella Chronicles and DQS) and are marketed well thrive. That`s all they SHOULD HAVE TO DO. Back in the Gamecube gen, developers complaints were that the install base wasn`t there to bother with development, and now it is, not to mention that both the PS3 and 360 are doing abysmally, and even the mighty PS2 is slowing down. It`s all fun to say `Hell, put everything on the DS!`but would any developer in their right mind completely forgo a super hot market like the Wii because 2nd and 3rd tier titles bomb on the system?

Well, that depends on what you mean by 'completely forgo', but yes, I do think the publishers have every reason to be wary, because these titles are performing worse on the Wii than on the PS2.

 

[jarrod]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating... until 3rd parties allocate AAA level resources to Wii, they won't be seeing AAA level returns. Honestly, the first 3rd party game I think even qualifies in this area (for JP pubs at least) is probably Monster Hunter 3.

 

[Core407]

The argument as I brought it up was why people think that the Wii`s 3rd party sales are so bad as to abandon the platform. When I asked for examples, I got Soul Calibur Legends and Nights to go along with Chocobo Tales and We Love Golf. Yes, these titles did abysmally, that`s not up for dispute, but this is not a crop of titles I would look at when deciding whether or not i`m going to continue to support the Wii. What did we truly expect these titles to sell? Other people look at NMH and laugh and scream bomba, but the predecessor did what, 12K on the PS2? How often are we going to blame Nintendo for poorly marketed, quickly constructed games?

To answer your question, Nintendo is doing everything they need to get 3rd party developers to support the Wii. They`ve created an environment where titles built to take advantage of the system (Like Umbrella Chronicles and DQS) and are marketed well thrive. That`s all they SHOULD HAVE TO DO. Back in the Gamecube gen, developers complaints were that the install base wasn`t there to bother with development, and now it is, not to mention that both the PS3 and 360 are doing abysmally, and even the mighty PS2 is slowing down. It`s all fun to say `Hell, put everything on the DS!`but would any developer in their right mind completely forgo a super hot market like the Wii because 2nd and 3rd tier titles bomb on the system?

They probably won't, but they should if you look at it from a financial stand point. Their source of income is from the games themselves and if no one keeps buying the games - not matter what the userbase is - the company will inevitably lose money.