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[Core407]

I can't help but wonder where you were when games were bombing on the PS3. Why does the PS3 get none of the blame for not being able to sell these games, and the Wii get all of the blame for selling these "non-games" as you call them?

The PS3 isn't bombing though. Sales wise, the system is doing better than the 360 did during its first year. Game-wise though, I can't tell you why some games aren't selling. I'm expecting it to pick up in '08, but it's definitely something Sony needs to address. Maybe a lot of the games will have legs and last through the generation. Who knows?

The Wii is selling games like Carnival Games to casuals.

 

[AniHawk]

Damn straight. The addition of optional waggle and pointing, next to buttons, is seriously lacking in control methods. Maybe they could've released a classic controller or have the GCN controller work for it too, but noooo. Nintendo is so stubborn.

I think having the control pad separate so one piece is in each hand is a much more comfortable and logical way to go for most games (unless you're feeling the need for a niche genre like fighting or something). I hope it becomes the next big thing, motion-sensing or not.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

The PS3 isn't bombing though. Sales wise, the system is doing better than the 360 did during its first year. Game-wise though, I can't tell you why some games aren't selling. I'm expecting it to pick up in '08, but it's definitely something Sony needs to address. Maybe a lot of the games will have legs and last through the generation. Who knows?

The Wii is selling games like Carnival Games to casuals.

If the PS3 isn't bombing then what the fuck are you complaining about?

 

[ksamedi]

The PS3 isn't bombing though. Sales wise, the system is doing better than the 360 did during its first year. Game-wise though, I can't tell you why some games aren't selling. I'm expecting it to pick up in '08, but it's definitely something Sony needs to address. Maybe a lot of the games will have legs and last through the generation. Who knows?

The Wii is selling games like Carnival Games to casuals.

Not this shit again.

 

[birdchili]

Think about if we could have had 1:1 controls. Don't you think we'd be seeing some interesting and intuitive games?

give it a few years. this is coming.

i'm slightly surprised at how few games have really done cool stuff with the motion controls (and pointer, really) (nintendo included), but i'll cut them some first year slack on this front.

did sim city or civilization do any japanese sales? the potential of the pointer for pc->console conversions (civ, spore) seems pretty good.

 

[Core407]

give it a few years. this is coming.

i'm slightly surprised at how few games have really done cool stuff with the motion controls (and pointer, really) (nintendo included), but i'll cut them some first year slack on this front.

did sim city or civilization do any japanese sales? the potential of the pointer for pc->console conversions (civ, spore) seems pretty good.

No, it probably won't happen until a new console is released. Things like 1:1 controls would add a lot of potential.

 

[dude]

The PS3 isn't bombing though. Sales wise, the system is doing better than the 360 did during its first year. Game-wise though, I can't tell you why some games aren't selling. I'm expecting it to pick up in '08, but it's definitely something Sony needs to address. Maybe a lot of the games will have legs and last through the generation. Who knows?

The Wii is selling games like Carnival Games to casuals.

Because brown colored shooters are MUCH better?:\

 

[ksamedi]

No, it probably won't happen until a new console is released. Things like 1:1 controls would add a lot of potential.

The technology is still new. I highly doubt that Nintendo had the time to do a better job with the Wiimote. There next console will probably support better sensor technology or even computer vision which would remove the need for sensors completely. Still though, the Wiimote has yet to show its true potential and it could lead to the Wii lasting 10years.

 

[AniHawk]

Because brown colored shooters are MUCH better?:\

That wasn't the problem. The fact that costs kept rising was the problem. Think about it. Since 2002 we've seen Square and Enix merge, Sammy buy out Sega, EA buy out Bioware, Activision and Vivendi merge, Namco and Bandai merge, Acclaim close up shop, and a lot of smaller companies die out, which is, quite frankly, very not good.

 

[Core407]

The technology is still new. I highly doubt that Nintendo had the time to do a better job with the Wiimote. There next console will probably support better sensor technology or even computer vision which would remove the need for sensors completely. Still though, the Wiimote has yet to show its true potential and it could lead to the Wii lasting 10years.

I think it has more to do with costs and the systems retail price. Wii lasting 10 years? Come on, man - you got to be kidding me. I definitely see the Wii as the NES of motion-control based systems. Very basic at this point but within a generation, we will see the potentials of motion controls become a reality and I guarantee you, you and everyone else will be commenting on how basic the Wii really was.

 

[Core407]

That wasn't the problem. The fact that costs kept rising was the problem. Think about it. Since 2002 we've seen Square and Enix merge, Sammy buy out Sega, EA buy out Bioware, Activision and Vivendi merge, Namco and Bandai merge, Acclaim close up shop, and a lot of smaller companies die out, which is, quite frankly, very not good.

And that's why you're seeing things like PSN and XBLA. Those small developers are going to be moving to digital distribution for their games and release titles that aren't full blown blockbusters that cost $30 million to develop. Not to mention other emerging gaming divisions like cell phones and so on. Small developers aren't dying out - they're just changing how they approach development and their roles in the industry.

Edit: The way gaming is going, you're going to be seeing a lot of ideas you couldn't even imagine. Developers need to be smart and continually evaluate the market because if your choices are based on old principles, you're probably not going to make it.

 

[ksamedi]

I think it has more to do with costs and the systems retail price. Wii lasting 10 years? Come on, man - you got to be kidding me. I definitely see the Wii as the NES of motion-control based systems. Very basic at this point but within a generation, we will see the potentials of motion controls become a reality and I guarantee you, you and everyone else will be commenting on how basic the Wii really was.

I agree that its basic but that doesn't mean that it will cripple developers with ideas. Motion sensing is an unexplored concept in gaming which can lead to fresh ideas and new types of gameplay that nobody ever thought off. Thats why it could last 10 years.

 

[dude]

That wasn't the problem. The fact that costs kept rising was the problem. Think about it. Since 2002 we've seen Square and Enix merge, Sammy buy out Sega, EA buy out Bioware, Activision and Vivendi merge, Namco and Bandai merge, Acclaim close up shop, and a lot of smaller companies die out, which is, quite frankly, very not good.

Right, but I think that the rising costs made companies go into what they know will sale - every shooter is Halo these days and every action game is God of War, artistic vision has been cut out of the equation in most cases.

 

[Core407]

I agree that its basic but that doesn't mean that it will cripple developers with ideas. Motion sensing is an unexplored concept in gaming which can lead to fresh ideas and new types of gameplay that nobody ever thought off. Thats why it could last 10 years.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying but the the Wii audience buys certain types of games. As a developer, messing around with motion controls might not be financially feasable. You're going to see a lot more inovation with the controls from the hacking movement. There are already plenty of amazing modifications done - some allowing for Minority Report like tracking and so on. Basically my point is that there is no real incentive to try to do anything really innovative with the Wii. The types of games that are selling aren't innovating or anything. Things like Wii Sports, Carnival Games and so on. They're just very basic games - like Duck Hunt or Donkey Kong on the NES.

 

[AniHawk]

And that's why you're seeing things like PSN and XBLA. Those small developers are going to be moving to digital distribution for their games and release titles that aren't full blown blockbusters that cost $30 million to develop. Not to mention other emerging gaming divisions like cell phones and so on. Small developers aren't dying out - they're just changing how they approach development and their roles in the industry.

Edit: The way gaming is going, you're going to be seeing a lot of ideas you couldn't even imagine. Developers need to be smart and continually evaluate the market because if your choices are based on old principles, you're probably not going to make it.

I wasn't really talking about small companies such as indie developers. I meant smaller guys like Taito (and they were bought by SE). Looking at the larger picture, the fact that Bioware was bought by EA and Activision took control of Blizzard within six months of each other should be pretty alarming.

Right, but I think that the rising costs made companies go into what they know will sale - every shooter is Halo these days and every action game is God of War, artistic vision has been cut out of the equation in most cases.

For the most part, it's the only game they can afford to make. The rising development costs are the cause for the effect of the plethora of first-person shooters and action games there are (unless you're SE and can cater to a specific fanbase relatively well).

 

[Redd]

They're just very basic games - like Duck Hunt on the NES.

Duck Hunt was fan fuckingtastic. Wish I could should the dog sometimes though.

 

[Wii-za]

The PS3 isn't bombing though.

Yes, it is.

Sales wise, the system is doing better than the 360 did during its first year.

Wow...now thats...good?

 

[laserbeam]

41 out of 50 Games are Wii or DS. Domination total

 

[Pureauthor]

I dunno why people spout of that the PS3 is beating the X360 in hardware like it's something to be proud of.

 

[Core407]

I wasn't really talking about small companies such as indie developers. I meant smaller guys like Taito (and they were bought by SE). Looking at the larger picture, the fact that Bioware was bought by EA and Activision took control of Blizzard within six months of each other should be pretty alarming.



For the most part, it's the only game they can afford to make. The rising development costs are the cause for the effect of the plethora of first-person shooters and action games there are (unless you're SE and can cater to a specific fanbase relatively well).

Hardly. Blizzard was raking in the money - there was no forced need to merge. It was probably a decision that was made for various reasons.

 

[jay]

It's not that third parties make worse games than Nintendo. It's that the truly hardcore Nintendo fans are braindead cultists.

This is basically a tautology. Insane Nintendo fans are only interested in Nintendo, fine. More important is how many of these people actually exist. I have never met one in real life. That doesn't mean they aren't there but the idea that they make much of a difference is kind of silly.

I do know many non-insane Nintendo fans and we all have a handful of the better third party efforts as well as other companies consoles and handhelds.

Also, Nintendo makes better Wii games than most third parties. It can be said to be a matter of taste but you're in the small minority with your stance.

 

[Core407]

I dunno why people spout of that the PS3 is beating the X360 in hardware like it's something to be proud of.

No, people spout it because people claim the PS3 is doing awful when in reality, it's doing better than the 360 when it came out.

 

[Dascu]

No, people spout it because people claim the PS3 is doing awful when in reality, it's doing better than the 360 when it came out.

That line of logic might work, if the 360's sales actually meant something in Japan.

 

[PantherLotus]

Of "all" the 3rd-party games that have "bombed" on the Wii (yes, both in quotes), did one of them deserve to not bomb? I haven't seen one AAA game yet (look up my definition of AAA in that thread).

3rd parties are making a huge ass profit off of their efforts on the Wii. "Their efforts" being the problem.

 

[SovanJedi]

No, people spout it because people claim the PS3 is doing awful when in reality, it's doing better than the 360 when it came out.

How well do you consider the sales of the Gamecube, software and hardware? Just your thoughts on it.

 

[PhoenixDark]

No, people spout it because people claim the PS3 is doing awful when in reality, it's doing better than the 360 when it came out.

Like that's a good comparison

 

[Core407]

How well do you consider the sales of the Gamecube, software and hardware? Just your thoughts on it.

I realize the PS3 isn't setting sales records but I don't expect it to. For the price it launched at and for the amount of worthwhile titles released in the first year, I'd say it did pretty well. Maybe Sony was banking on blu-ray to drive sales in the first year but now we know it isn't motivation enough for consumers to make the plunge. They want games and a lower price point and I see the PS3 really picking up in mid '08.

Edit: The GCN came out at a lower price point than other systems ($50? less than Xbox/PS2), while the PS3 launched at $500/$600 - much higher than the other systems. Also - the PS3 itself just has more technology behind it than the GCN did and it's going to drive sales once blu-ray becomes more important and once all of these features Sony is promising release (or don't). I mean, with the GCN - it came out and that's all you got. With The PS3, Sony is expanding on features, improvement performance and really turning the system into a fully fledged media system. Soon we will see larger HDDs and hopefully DVR functionality.

Edit 2: To answer the question directly, I see the GCN as a failure compared to the other systems.

 

[Epiphyte]

No, people spout it because people claim the PS3 is doing awful when in reality, it's doing better than the 360 when it came out.

Doing somewhat better than COMPLETE FUCKING FAILURE is still awful

 

[Dascu]

I realize the PS3 isn't setting sales records but I don't expect it to. For the price it launched at and for the amount of worthwhile titles released in the first year, I'd say it did pretty well. Maybe Sony was banking on blu-ray to drive sales in the first year but now we know it isn't motivation enough for consumers to make the plunge. They want games and a lower price point and I see the PS3 really picking up in mid '08.

You avoided the question.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Of "all" the 3rd-party games that have "bombed" on the Wii (yes, both in quotes), did one of them deserve to not bomb? I haven't seen one AAA game yet (look up my definition of AAA in that thread).

3rd parties are making a huge ass profit off of their efforts on the Wii. "Their efforts" being the problem.

By game quality:
Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA.
Chocobo Wii deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level.
SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask.
Wii Love Golf, by all accounts, is an A/B level title.
Nights deserves higher sales.
Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Like that's a good comparison

Only 2 regions matter for developers when it comes to the PS3 or 360. Japan isn't one of them and that is where the lead stems from. It's a moot point for most people

 

[Core407]

You avoided the question.

Sorry, I edited it.

 

[PantherLotus]

By game quality:
Zack and Wiki bombed and is AAA.
Chocobo Wii deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level.
SSX Blur deserves more sales, although it's more A/B level.
Trauma Center (both versions) bombed in Japan, and they're either A or AAA depending on who you ask.
Wii Love Golf, by all accounts, is an A/B level title.
Nights deserves higher sales.
Kororinpa is A/B level, 20k.

None of those are remotely AAA titles. All of them are significantly flawed in one way or another, had limited budgets, limited marketing, or limited dev time. Like I said, please refer to my definition of what AAA means. While some of them (including the non-mentioned NMH, Elebits, Dewey) are bound to become cult classics, every one of them are 2nd-tier titles.

3rd parties cannot expect anything more until they treat the system with respect. Or maybe they're satisifed making a killing on 2nd and 3rd tier titles that they spent very little money on?

 

[Sage00]

Only 2 regions matter for developers when it comes to the PS3 or 360. Japan isn't one of them and that is where the lead stems from. It's a moot point for most people

Yeah, Japan is totally irrelevant to all developers making games for PS3/360. For example, titles like Tales of Vesperia, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, etc are obviously aimed at a western audience and should sell billions there, while I doubt anyone cares about those games in Japan.

 

[Stumpokapow]

None of those are remotely AAA titles. All of them are significantly flawed in one way or another, had limited budgets, limited marketing, or limited dev time. Like I said, please refer to my definition of what AAA means. While some of them (including the non-mentioned NMH, Elebits, Dewey) are bound to become cult classics, every one of them are 2nd-tier titles.

I don't think there's any need to have a debate based on a tautological definition. If you define AAA to be awesome, high budget, high dev time, and well marketed, it's virtually impossible for the game to fail. Especially since "well marketed" is defined almost exclusively in hindsight relative to the exposure and sales of the game.

It doesn't matter how poor Capcom's marketing was, Zack and Wiki sold substantially less than it deserved to. I think when you look at the first year of the PS2, while overall software sales may be similar, the software is vastly more stratified.

Or to put it another way, I suspect Nights PS2 will outsell Nights Wii. Nights PS2 will have had a lower dev time, lower budget, and lower marketing. While Nights Wii reviews have been mixed, it's certain it doesn't have poisonously bad word of mouth (IE Seiken Densetsu 4, Tales of the Tempest) and so I'm not willing to interpret a lack of quality as the prime reason for the downfall.

Here's the point:
- On the PS2, a company could achieve high sales on a good game, a bad game, a big game, a little game, a well-marketed game, a poorly-marketed game, a long-term project, or a seasonal pumpout.
- On the Wii, a company can achieve high sales on a good game, a big game, a well-marketed game, and a long-term project.

This might seem like a positive change, but in practice devs are risk-averse and if they can't buoy their high risk titles with slop, they'll stick to the slop altogether.

 

[schuelma]

None of those are remotely AAA titles. All of them are significantly flawed in one way or another, had limited budgets, limited marketing, or limited dev time. Like I said, please refer to my definition of what AAA means. While some of them (including the non-mentioned NMH, Elebits, Dewey) are bound to become cult classics, every one of them are 2nd-tier titles.

3rd parties cannot expect anything more until they treat the system with respect. Or maybe they're satisifed making a killing on 2nd and 3rd tier titles that they spent very little money on?

I think you're making this strawman where you are arguing that people expect these titles to be million sellers. We don't.

But these are absolutely BOMBING. Just because it isn't a pure AAA title doesn't mean it deserves to sell 20%, 30% of its initial shipment.

 

[iidesuyo]

It's funny how everyone bashes PSP sales and complains about Third Parties ignoring Wii while PSP has 3 Third Party games in the charts and Wii has only one (and many games have been released recently, like Nights or Soul Calibur).

When there are noteable PSP releases, they will make it into the Top 10. Monster Hunter 2 proves to have huge legs. But all the Third Parties jumped the ship when the PSP was destroyed by the DS, thus the number of releases is currently very thin. It will pick up again.

 

[kurosawa]

With The PS3, Sony is expanding on features, improvement performance and really turning the system into a fully fledged media system. Soon we will see larger HDDs and hopefully DVR functionality.

so you're saying PS3 will be the next PSP in Japan?

 

[Shiggy]

It's funny how everyone bashes PSP sales and complains about Third Parties ignoring Wii while PSP has 3 Third Party games in the charts and Wii has only one (and many games have been released recently, like Nights or Soul Calibur).

Considering their quality and marketing efforts it's no wonder that both bombed...

When there are noteable PSP releases, they will make it into the Top 10. Monster Hunter 2 proves to have huge legs. But all the Third Parties jumped the ship when the PSP was destroyed by the DS, thus the number of releases is currently very thin. It will pick up again.

That's not really true, there were so many games that simply bombed, did you see the sales of Hot Shots Golf PSP 2? These SE & Monster Hunter titles seem to be different though, that's true.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Yeah, Japan is totally irrelevant to all developers making games for PS3/360. For example, titles like Tales of Vesperia, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, etc are obviously aimed at a western audience and should sell billions there, while I doubt anyone cares about those games in Japan.

North American Developers in Japan: Can't sell there
European Developers in Japan: Can't sell there
Japanese Developers in Japan: One week of fun in the sun then the heavy dropoff.

This is for PS3 or 360.

Musou and Hot Shots Golf 5 are the only ones IIRC that has bucked this trend.

 

[PantherLotus]

Well I think this requires statistical analysis of the following:

1. Wii vs. PS2 first year 3rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)
2. Wii vs. PS1 first year 3rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)

3. Wii vs. PS2 first year 1st party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)
4. Wii vs. PS1 first year 1rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)

anybody help with that?


I love all these "any game can sell on the PS2" arguments when the system was the successor to the Japan-conquering PS1, and even then its in vague terms. I want numbers where available. I want to see what everyone is talking about. I believe we're still in a natural transition cycle and we're seeing that. Let's look at the numbers to prove or disprove my theory.

 

[Pureauthor]

Considering their quality and marketing efforts it's no wonder that both bombed...

Quality has relatively little to do with a game's success.

And why didn't Nintendo help them with their marketing efforts, if it was so poor?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Well I think this requires statistical analysis of the following:

1. Wii vs. PS2 first year 3rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)
2. Wii vs. PS1 first year 3rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)

3. Wii vs. PS2 first year 1st party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)
4. Wii vs. PS1 first year 1rd party sales (a top 50 or 100 would work)

anybody help with that?


I love all these "any game can sell on the PS2" arguments when the system was the successor to the Japan-conquering PS1, and even then its in vague terms. I want numbers where available. I want to see what everyone is talking about. I believe we're still in a natural transition cycle and we're seeing that. Let's look at the numbers to prove or disprove my theory.

I like this idea.

 

[schuelma]

I like this idea.

Josh!!! You are needed!!

 

[SovanJedi]

Josh!!! You are needed!!

If he turns up I want to know what on earth his interesting new tag is about too. :S

 

[PantherLotus]

Quality has relatively little to do with a game's success.

And why didn't Nintendo help them with their marketing efforts, if it was so poor?

Is this a common practice on other systems?

 

[Saitou]

And why didn't Nintendo help them with their marketing efforts, if it was so poor?

Why should they?

MS and SONY need the 3rd party games they pay marketing for because they can't hold up by themselves. I thought that was what this whole conversation was about?

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

3rd parties cannot expect anything more until they treat the system with respect.

After 'epic, not enough of it' comes 'respect, not enough of it' :lol

 

[PantherLotus]

After 'epic, not enough of it' comes 'respect, not enough of it' :lol

agreed?

 

[Pureauthor]

Is this a common practice on other systems?

I don't know. Other systems certainly aren't seeing a dearth of 3rd party games, so I don't see a need why they should bother.

I thought the subject at hand was how to get more 3rd parties to develop for the Wii?