Support NeoGAF

[Orgen]

Ah! for the first sentence.

Yo, I heard u like Nobunaga


[360] Nobunaga's Ambition: Way of Heaven (Koei) - 2.520 / 3.197 / 78,82% 04/03/10
[NDS] Nobunaga's Ambition DS 2 (Koei) - 9.398 / 46.185 / 20,35% 31/07/08
[NDS] Nobunaga's Ambition: Kunitori Zunou Battle (Koei) - 7.100 / 23.538 / 30,16% 26/06/08
[NDS] Nobunaga's Ambition DS (Koei) - / 17.143 / 0,00% 27/04/06
[PS1] Nobunaga's Ambition: Memories (Koei) - 55.388 / 176.399 / 31,40% 27/11/97
[PS1] Nobunaga's Ambition: Reppuuden (Koei) - 42.270 / 120.509 / 35,08% 09/09/99
[PS1] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki [Playstation the Best] (Koei) - 17.940 / 80.918 / 22,17% 28/03/97
[PS1] Nobunaga's Ambition: Reppuuden with Power Up Kit (Koei) - 9.147 / 9.147 / 100,00% 06/04/00
[PS1] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki with Power-Up Kit (Koei) - 6.693 / 6.693 / 100,00% 11/09/97
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Storm Century (Koei) - 40.282 / 142.172 / 28,33% 04/04/02
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Memories (Koei) - 46.921 / 124.807 / 37,59% 30/01/03
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Iron Triangle (Koei) - 38.560 / 89.032 / 43,31% 02/02/06
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Rise to Power (Koei) - 28.175 / 88.485 / 31,84% 01/04/04
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition Online (Koei) - 21.034 / 58.750 / 35,80% 12/06/03
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Rise to Power [Playstation 2 the Best] (Koei) - / 32.912 / 0,00% 01/12/05
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Iron Triangle with Power-Up Kit (Koei) - 9.465 / 31.379 / 30,16% 06/03/08
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Memories with Power-Up Kit (Koei) - / 26.828 / 0,00% 18/12/03
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Storm Century with Power-Up Kit (Koei) - 5.921 / 14.621 / 40,50% 03/10/02
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Rise to Power with Power-Up Kit [Koei Teiban Series] (Koei) - 1.471 / 13.567 / 10,84% 26/11/09
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition: Memories [Koei the Best] (Koei) - 1.256 / 1.256 / 100,00% 10/06/04
[PS2] Nobunaga's Ambition Online - Souha no Shou (Koei) - 580 / 580 / 100,00% 27/03/08
[PS3] Nobunaga's Ambition: Way of Heaven (Koei) - 40.330 / 106.276 / 37,95% 04/03/10
[PS3] Nobunaga's Ambition: Way of Heaven with Power-up Kit (Koei Tecmo) - 16.304 / 27.105 / 60,15% 26/05/11*
[PSP] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki (Koei) - 3.270 / 12.382 / 26,41% 01/09/05
[PSP] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki with Power-Up Kit (Koei Tecmo) - 4.470 / 4.470 / 100,00% 04/08/11
[SAT] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki (Koei) - 44.307 / 68.412 / 64,76% 29/09/95
[SFC] Nobunaga's Ambition: Tenshoki (Koei) - 40.953 / 140.403 / 29,17% 26/01/96
[WII] Nobunaga's Ambition: Iron Triangle with Power-Up Kit (Koei) - 650 / 650 / 100,00% 06/03/08
[XBX] Nobunaga's Ambition: Storm Century (Koei) - 9.329 / 16.933 / 55,09% 22/02/02

*To have the updated total, we must wait Famitsu top 1000, since it's been released this year.

The best selling entries did in the 140k territories, and it's a brand which sells during time normally.

Thanks for the numbers. At first look it'll be very difficult for Pokemon to put the title in the 500k numbers but we'll see.

Donkey Kong Country Returns is a bridge game. It is a 2D platformer and is a bridge game for Core/non-gamers like NSMB Wii or MK is. There is a big market on Wii for 2D Platformers. Not much evidence in a market for Action-Adventure titles on Wii.

Xenoblade, Sin & Punishment, Punch out, The Last Story, and Metroid: Other M all did fairly underwhelming. I'm also struggling to think of any 3rd party titles that did well other than Just Dance.

Zelda obviously still did pretty shitacular but I'd say a lot of that rests on the fact that it was released on Wii, not the game itself. Zelda may be a bigger name than the five games mentioned but I'd argue some of those such as The Last Story were more heavily marketed.

I know that we're in a Media Create thread but are we talking about japan sales only or worldwide sales? Because if it's the later Nintendo (or at least NOE) only considers S&P2 sales underwhelming/total bomb (which is a shame).

If we're talking only about Japan sales you'll be with me when I say that neither Metroid nor Punch Out are in the same ballpark that Zelda, right?

So we have Xenoblade and Last Story left. IMO the "there aren't Wii hardcore gamers now" excuse is bullshit. Are you telling me that if this 2 games released in 2008-2009 they would have sold more? Are we forgetting the Tales of Graces and Samurai Warriors 3 numbers? Maybe there's only 300k Wii action/RPG hardcore gamers so that's why Zelda can't sell more (j/k).

I don't know why SS has bombed in Japan but I'm sure that it's not because there aren't hardcore gamers there.

Well, Nintendo's big RPG push (Xenoblade, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower) sort of fell on deaf ears. Reginliev and Other M didn't do so hot either. I expect the new Fatal Frame to barely register too, all these games probably would've made way more impact had they come a couple years earlier.

DKCR sold great, but 2D platformers seem to have much more mainstream appeal, especially after what NSMBWii did for the genre on this system. Action, adventure or role playing games never really had a similar success story to drive the market for these later games.

As I've said before you're quickly forgetting that there were other RPG/action games (from more established sagas) that didn't do so hot a couple years before (Tales, Samurai Warriors and Final Fantasy). Why do you think Xenoblade and The Last Story would've made an impact?

Yeah, Xenoblade and Last Story basically came up too late, and if Xenoblade, in the end, didn't do too shabby, considering the 80k first week, and paved the way for a sequel, especially due to the amazing reception it had, The Last Story failed despite a much bigger advertising plan done by Nintendo, with even the bundle, and it didn't do so well in regard to general reception.

Those were games Wii should have had 6 months after DQX announcement, when Wii was at least alive during the rest of the year...or, even better, during Holidays 2008. But we can say these things only NOW, when everything already happened, who knew Wii would have seen such a sharp downfall and that third parties would have (IMHO not an absolutely total wrong idea in theory, but wrong the way they did it ) really ignored it even after the first two years of almost complete absence of "first-tier console" offerings (the only exceptions being DQS in 2007, and Tales of Symphonia 2 and Taiko in 2008 ) despite the big hardware sales.

Maybe you can answer the questions I've made before ;P

 

[Kenka]

Not the best place to ask but at what time does NPD fall ?

 

[idlewild_]

Not the best place to ask but at what time does NPD fall ?

thread should be up in about an hour.

 

[Takao]

You know, I'd so like to see a Pokémon x Digimon crossover, especially now that Xros Wars made the brand relevant again, so much that

Spoiler

In some weeks we'll see the main characters of this series challenge the "captains" of the precedent five series

Haha, no. Digimon used to battle with Pokemon for the top ratings of the mon-series. It's not a battle between Xros Wars and Best Wishes, it's a blood bath.

 

[Mpl90]

Thanks for the numbers. At first look it'll be very difficult for Pokemon to put the title in the 500k numbers but we'll see.



Maybe you can answer the questions I've made before ;P

Releasing them earlier would have been these consequences.

First of all, the general wealth of software: in 2008 there was still some pretty trend advantaging it, and we saw good results such as ToS2, and big ones like the first Taiko, while in 2009 Wii was still a console selling AT LEAST 20k, in its low periods, and then it saw a big rise with MH3. It was still an healty platform (less in 2009 than 2008, but absolutely not the tragicness of these last two years ).

Secondarly, coming early allow a much bigger possibility to shine, considering there isn't still the competition you can expect your game to challenge, for example, in the fourth year of the platform, and so you can attract people before the (possible) big guns come.

Thirdly: 2008-first 9 months of 2009 were the months before the rebirth of PS3, which with the Slim, Tales of Vesperia and FFXIII-2 obtained to attract a lot of JRPG audience maybe still on fence about what home system to buy, maybe with already a Wii but a bit unsatisfied by the line-up...and then, PS3 became the de-facto home console for the JRPGs, but I'd also say for the "core" games as a whole.

 

[Orgen]

Releasing them earlier would have been these consequences.

First of all, the general wealth of software: in 2008 there was still some pretty trend advantaging it, and we saw good results such as ToS2, and big ones like the first Taiko, while in 2009 Wii was still a console selling AT LEAST 20k, in its low periods, and then it saw a big rise with MH3. It was still an healty platform (less in 2009 than 2008, but absolutely not the tragicness of these last two years ).

Secondarly, coming early allow a much bigger possibility to shine, considering there isn't still the competition you can expect your game to challenge, for example, in the fourth year of the platform, and so you can attract people before the (possible) big guns come.

Thirdly: 2008-first 9 months of 2009 were the months before the rebirth of PS3, which with the Slim, Tales of Vesperia and FFXIII-2 obtained to attract a lot of JRPG audience maybe still on fence about what home system to buy, maybe with already a Wii but a bit unsatisfied by the line-up...and then, PS3 became the de-facto home console for the JRPGs, but I'd also say for the "core" games as a whole.

That's a lot of What if's

Simply put, I don't think ToS2 numbers were good results and even less ToG numbers. And they were released when the Wii was "alive". My opinion? they'd make the same numbers today than 3 years earlier (and you can add MHTri too).

And yes, that's another what if for you We know Wii is "dead" now but still selling a lot of software (look at Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven or Kirby) so if Xenoblade or Last Story don't sell more than 200K (and Zelda: SS more than 300K) it's not a Wii health problem or the lack NOW of Wii core gamers in Japan (if there's a lack of Wii core gamers then it's been forever).

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

That's a lot of What if's

Simply put, I don't think ToS2 numbers were good results and even less ToG numbers. And they were released when the Wii was "alive". My opinion? they'd make the same numbers today than 3 years earlier (and you can add MHTri too).

And yes, that's another what if for you We know Wii is "dead" now but still selling a lot of software (look at Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven or Kirby) so if Xenoblade or Last Story don't sell more than 200K (and Zelda: SS more than 300K) it's not a Wii health problem or the lack NOW of Wii core gamers in Japan (if there's a lack of Wii core gamers then it's been forever).

Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven and Kirby all slot into mainstream friendly genres that have had huge success on the system before. Zelda doesn't really.

I'd say ToS2 had a great result given what it actually was (Tales of Budgetpokéspinoffia by Team Interns). I'd say the SW3 result wasn't really bad either, although Koei wasn't satisfied with it. For Wii's first (and last) Musou it was decent though, close to PS3's first Musou in fact. There's other examples earlier too, Fire Emblem did decently for one, Fatal Frame IV hit a series high too. Wii problem was that there wasn't enough of this sort of stuff, early enough, and no real genre kings to clear the way and build a sustainable marketplace. Wii's first two years really needed to look more like 3DS's first two years are, with huge 3rd party games and tons of support/filler titles to round everything out.

 

[electroplankton]

Pokémon + Nobunaga's Ambition has the chance to perform really well imo, since it can attract people loving Pokémon that just look for some new mechanics. I think in the range 200-300k would be really a success.

 

[Orgen]

Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven and Kirby all slot into mainstream friendly genres that have had huge success on the system before. Zelda doesn't really.

I'd say ToS2 had a great result given what it actually was (Tales of Budgetpokéspinoffia by Team Interns). I'd say the SW3 result wasn't really bad either, although Koei wasn't satisfied with it. For Wii's first (and last) Musou it was decent though, close to PS3's first Musou in fact. There's other examples earlier too, Fire Emblem did decently for one, Fatal Frame IV hit a series high too. Wii problem was that there wasn't enough of this sort of stuff, early enough, and no real genre kings to clear the way and build a sustainable marketplace. Wii's first two years really needed to look more like 3DS's first two years are, with huge 3rd party games and tons of support/filler titles to round everything out.

So how much do you think would Xenoblade/Last Story sell in 2008/2009? 200K? 300K? 500K?

And Zelda? 500K? 700K? 1 million?

That's a lot of speculation and we can make excuses all day (for example Mario Galaxy 2 selling the same (or more) than Mario Galaxy even with the Wii dying... or is Mario 3D a "mainstream friendly genre" now too? ;P) but the reality is that Xenoblade and Last Story sold about 150K each and Zelda:SS will sell 350K at max. I don't think it's because the Wii is dead but I can't demonstrate it, so... better left this here (I'm no fan of speculation in discussions, sorry )

Now, how can Nintendo know what happened with SS in Japan? Maybe making a survey in its web? What other solutions could Nintendo get to prevent this from happening again?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

PHEW. It has been bugging me for years that the software lines on Garaph were shifted juuust off so they poked out to the right more than they should unless you manually set it to display further to compensate. I let it just sit like that because it mostly worked, I thought it would be some barely-off calculation somewhere hard to detect, and I didn't want to risk making things worse. But tonight I decided to track it down, and found it. $lineplot[$numcur]->SetCenter(); What I thought was something to keep the text used on the X axis centered to the ticks turns out to... well, do what it was doing. With that commented out, everything just snaps together so much more nicely.

Before and After

 

[Erethian]

Now, how can Nintendo know what happened with SS in Japan? Maybe making a survey in its web? What other solutions could Nintendo get to prevent this from happening again?

Put it on a handheld.

 

[Souldriver]

Put it on a handheld.

Put it on a console that the hardcore gamers haven't abandoned for over a two years.

 

[Orgen]

Put it on a handheld.

I didn't ask what does Nintendo have to do with the Zelda franchise. I'm asking what can Nintendo do to know why Zelda: SS has bombed so hard in Japan.

Put it on a console that the hardcore gamers haven't abandoned for over a two years.

Here we go again... to the bed!

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

So how much do you think would Xenoblade/Last Story sell in 2008/2009? 200K? 300K? 500K?

And Zelda? 500K? 700K? 1 million?

That's a lot of speculation and we can make excuses all day (for example Mario Galaxy 2 selling the same (or more) than Mario Galaxy even with the Wii dying... or is Mario 3D a "mainstream friendly genre" now too? ;P) but the reality is that Xenoblade and Last Story sold about 150K each and Zelda:SS will sell 350K at max. I don't think it's because the Wii is dead but I can't demonstrate it, so... better left this here (I'm no fan of speculation in discussions, sorry )

Now, how can Nintendo know what happened with SS in Japan? Maybe making a survey in its web? What other solutions could Nintendo get to prevent this from happening again?

Probably a bit better for Xenoblade/TLS, but not hugely so. Had Nintendo secured an early genre king that helped build the RPG market on Wii (say FFXIII and/or DQIX) then I think they'd have sold substantially better, like doubled or possibly even tripled. Markets have to be built and nurtured, the earlier the better.

If you want to get into Galaxy 2, the genre isn't so massmarket friendly, but the brand certainly is and was helped by big releases every single year on Wii. Galaxy 2 also had some very conscious design decisions to make the game more straightforward and approachable versus it's predecessor (Super Guide, retro styled level selection, more linear level designs, even a bundled "how to play" DVD). Which again, all separates it quite a bit from something like Zelda. Sorry if these sound like excuses to you, but it's the reality of it.

 

[DCharlie]

The real sweet justice is that Dark Souls outsold Skyward Sword.

Justice, but even funnier...

SUPER BOMBA OF THE FOREVER - The VITA - outsold Skyward Sword.

Given the installed user base of Wii that has to snatch the crown as bomba of the year. Even FF13-2 has bested it and -that- apparently bombed (though - special award for Legs or whatever Nintendo people call it...)

So let's crown it - Skyward Sword - biggest bomb of 2011. Vita loses it's crown.

#trollface

 

[Lord_Byron28]

So how much do you think would Xenoblade/Last Story sell in 2008/2009? 200K? 300K? 500K?

And Zelda? 500K? 700K? 1 million?

That's a lot of speculation and we can make excuses all day (for example Mario Galaxy 2 selling the same (or more) than Mario Galaxy even with the Wii dying... or is Mario 3D a "mainstream friendly genre" now too? ;P) but the reality is that Xenoblade and Last Story sold about 150K each and Zelda:SS will sell 350K at max. I don't think it's because the Wii is dead but I can't demonstrate it, so... better left this here (I'm no fan of speculation in discussions, sorry )

Now, how can Nintendo know what happened with SS in Japan? Maybe making a survey in its web? What other solutions could Nintendo get to prevent this from happening again?

It's quite obviously exactly how you put it. There wasn't an audience for Adventure and RPG titles. Had Nintendo made a big push for the RPG and Adventure crowd back in 2008 when the system was still young and the PS3 wasn't popular it likely could've gotten that crowd. A lot of games did pretty good at first, showing that there was an audience for "hardcore" games(RE4, TP, etc) but Nintendo and 3rd parties squandered that potential and the audience abandoned the Wii for greener pastures.

 

[Orgen]

Probably a bit better for Xenoblade/TLS, but not hugely so. Had Nintendo secured an early genre king that helped build the RPG market on Wii (say FFXIII and/or DQIX) then I think they'd have sold substantially better, like doubled or possibly even tripled. Markets have to be built and nurtured, the earlier the better.

If you want to get into Galaxy 2, the genre isn't so massmarket friendly, but the brand certainly is and was helped by big releases every single year on Wii. Galaxy 2 also had some very conscious design decisions to make the game more straightforward and approachable versus it's predecessor (Super Guide, retro styled level selection, more linear level designs, even a bundled "how to play" DVD). Which again, all separates it quite a bit from something like Zelda. Sorry if these sound like excuses to you, but it's the reality of it.

Well, then we could agree that the "dead or alive" Wii situation has no impact in the numbers of Xenoblade and Last Story, right? Thank you! (the DQ IX or FF XIII for Wii is more than speculation and has nothing to do with the discussion).

Yes, they are excuses:

1.- I give you one Nintendo game (DKCR) that has sold more than 900K when the Wii was dead and it doesn't count because it's a 2D platformer.
2.- Then I give you more software (like Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven and Kirby) that is selling well RIGHT NOW with the Wii buried and they don't count because they are "mainstream friendly genres that have had huge success on the system before" (Did the dance genre had huge success before on Wii in Japan? uh?)
3.- Finally I show you Mario Galaxy 2 with more than 1 million sold with the Wii dying (just like Mario Galaxy did with the Wii exploding in sales) and then it doesn't count because it "had some very conscious design decisions to make the game more straightforward and approachable versus it's predecessor". And now I'll ask you, have you played Zelda: SS? Because it fits perfectly with your Galaxy 2 criteria. And even with that it has sold half of TP

But don't worry, I don't need more "reality" to prove my point. I just wanted to state that the Wii situation/"hardcore gamers leaving the system" it's not the reason for the low sales of Zelda:SS and we have agreed in your first paragraph (with the Xenoblade example).

Now I'm off to bed. Good night everyone!

P.S.: I see that some of you are well trained in the spin/damage control art of sales-age. Be prepared with your best weapons (comgnet lists, amazon predictions, more excu... "reality") when DQX ships because this could get really ugly ;P

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Well, then we could agree that the "dead or alive" Wii situation has no impact in the numbers of Xenoblade and Last Story, right? Thank you! (the DQ IX or FF XIII for Wii is more than speculation and has nothing to do with the discussion).

Yes, they are excuses:

1.- I give you one Nintendo game (DKCR) that has sold more than 900K when the Wii was dead and it doesn't count because it's a 2D platformer.
2.- Then I give you more software (like Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven and Kirby) that is selling well RIGHT NOW with the Wii buried and they don't count because they are "mainstream friendly genres that have had huge success on the system before" (Did the dance genre had huge success before on Wii in Japan? uh?)
3.- Finally I show you Mario Galaxy 2 with more than 1 million sold with the Wii dying (just like Mario Galaxy did with the Wii exploding in sales) and then it doesn't count because it "had some very conscious design decisions to make the game more straightforward and approachable versus it's predecessor". And now I'll ask you, have you played Zelda: SS? Because it fits perfectly with your Galaxy 2 criteria. And even with that it has sold half of TP

But don't worry, I don't need more "reality" to prove my point. I just wanted to state that the Wii situation/"hardcore gamers leaving the system" it's not the reason for the low sales of Zelda:SS and we have agreed in your first paragraph (with the Xenoblade example).

Now I'm off to bed. Good night everyone!

P.S.: I see that some of you are well trained in the spin/damage control art of sales-age. Be prepared with your best weapons (comgnet lists, amazon predictions, more excu... "reality") when DQX ships because this could get really ugly ;P

This still doesn't really prove me wrong. I stated that the Wii's "Hardcore" audience left. Mario, Kirby, Dragon Quest, Just Dance, Donkey Kong, and Rhythm Heaven are all mainstream ips that sell millions and there are also several games in similar genres that have allowed the audience to thrive(2d platformer and fitness audience). Zelda isn't one of these, it hasn't reached a million sales since 1996. There has been no Zelda type game(action-adventure) that has succeeded on the Wii and been made popular other than TP as a launch title.

What is your reasoning that Zelda didn't sell well? You actually adamantly proved that there was never an audience on the Wii for RPG and action-adventure titles.

 

[Augemitbutter]

happy for the dark souls numbers.

weird to see a new zelda game as the biggest bomba of the year

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Well, then we could agree that the "dead or alive" Wii situation has no impact in the numbers of Xenoblade and Last Story, right? Thank you! (the DQ IX or FF XIII for Wii is more than speculation and has nothing to do with the discussion).

Yes, they are excuses:

1.- I give you one Nintendo game (DKCR) that has sold more than 900K when the Wii was dead and it doesn't count because it's a 2D platformer.
2.- Then I give you more software (like Just Dance, Rhythm Heaven and Kirby) that is selling well RIGHT NOW with the Wii buried and they don't count because they are "mainstream friendly genres that have had huge success on the system before" (Did the dance genre had huge success before on Wii in Japan? uh?)
3.- Finally I show you Mario Galaxy 2 with more than 1 million sold with the Wii dying (just like Mario Galaxy did with the Wii exploding in sales) and then it doesn't count because it "had some very conscious design decisions to make the game more straightforward and approachable versus it's predecessor". And now I'll ask you, have you played Zelda: SS? Because it fits perfectly with your Galaxy 2 criteria. And even with that it has sold half of TP

But don't worry, I don't need more "reality" to prove my point. I just wanted to state that the Wii situation/"hardcore gamers leaving the system" it's not the reason for the low sales of Zelda:SS and we have agreed in your first paragraph (with the Xenoblade example).

Now I'm off to bed. Good night everyone!

P.S.: I see that some of you are well trained in the spin/damage control art of sales-age. Be prepared with your best weapons (comgnet lists, amazon predictions, more excu... "reality") when DQX ships because this could get really ugly ;P

No we're not in agreement since I stated the games would've sold more earlier in the cycle. That to me doesn't indicate "no impact", indeed quite the opposite.

I'm not going to waste my time much more since it's abundantly clear you're not actually interested in any real reasoning or context as to why certain Wii games sell or not, your dismissive language and tone indicates you're not really interested in discussion at all and your drive-by DQX trolling probably exposes why. Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite.

 

[Cipherr]

No we're not in agreement since I stated the games would've sold more earlier in the cycle. That to me doesn't indicate "no impact", indeed quite the opposite.

I'm not going to waste my time much more since it's abundly clear you're not actually interested in any real reasoning or context as to why certain Wii games sell or not, your dismissive language and tone indicates you're not really interested in discussion at all and your drive-by DQX trolling probably exposes why. Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite.

I find the second part of your post humorous, seeing as it would hinge on how exactly you would manage to, without any doubt, prove the highlighted... Say what you want about his position, but he backed it with more than just assumptions. He brought you concrete numbers, if you are reflexing with what you 'feel' those games may have sold years ago, you don't really have much room to be calling anyone out on not being interested in 'reasonable' conversation.

Honestly I don't see why any of you all feel like any of that is relevant anyway.

 

[DCharlie]

Honestly I don't see why any of you all feel like any of that is relevant anyway.

this basically. I'm not sure why Nintendo fans in particular get so wound up by Japanese sales figures.

The Zelda sales figures are surprising, the game was well advertised - especially on the rolling videos on the Yamanote line, had a presence in games stores, etc.

But for -unknown reason X- the largest Japanese userbase decided not to buy the game outside of reasonable numbers.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I find the second part of your post humorous, seeing as it would hinge on how exactly you would manage to, without any doubt, prove the highlighted... Say what you want about his position, but he backed it with more than just assumptions. He brought you concrete numbers, if you are reflexing with what you 'feel' those games may have sold years ago, you don't really have much room to be calling anyone out on not being interested in 'reasonable' conversation.

I think Tales makes a good example of core games decline on Wii, the low budget escort game made by new staff having sold on par with the promoted and bundled Team Destiny mainline just a year and a half later. Symphonia KOR was a decent result and gave a positive indication for the series/genre potential on Wii, Graces was definitetly not in either respect. To me this illustrates a heavy decline and market erosion for these sorts of games on the platform, and seemingly did the same for Namco. I don't know if that "proves without any doubt" my position, but that seems a pretty high goalpost to suddenly set. I wouldn't say Orgen's hit that bar, would you?

 

[charlequin]

To think Sony wants anything less than handheld gaming dominance is a bit naive.

I'm sure they want it, but they also knew they were launching in a lousy situation. It would be prudent to reduce their chances at "domination" somewhat in exchange for also reducing the chances of losing a ton of money. It's a question of risk vs. reward; the Vita is a less sensible platform to take a risk on than PSP was, which inevitably means the reward upside is a bit less as well.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I think Tales makes a good example of core games decline on Wii, the low budget escort game made by new staff having sold on par with the promoted and bundled Team Destiny mainline just a year and a half later. Symphonia KOR was a decent result and gave a positive indication for the series/genre potential on Wii, Graces was definitetly not in either respect. To me this illustrates a heavy decline and market erosion for these sorts of games on the platform, and seemingly did the same for Namco. I don't know if that "proves without any doubt" my position, but that seems a pretty high goalpost to suddenly set. I wouldn't say Orgen's hit that bar, would you?

Tales of Symphonia 2 getting negative word of mouth killed any future for Tales on Wii.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

this basically. I'm not sure why Nintendo fans in particular get so wound up by Japanese sales figures.

The Zelda sales figures are surprising, the game was well advertised - especially on the rolling videos on the Yamanote line, had a presence in games stores, etc.

But for -unknown reason X- the largest Japanese userbase decided not to buy the game outside of reasonable numbers.

I think people are just trying to get to -unknown reason X-. I mean, you look at Skward Sword and the dissapointing result isn't far off or uncharacteristic from the similar dissapointing results of action, adventure and role playing games on Wii the past two years (Xenoblade, Last Story, Other M, Reginliev, Pandora's Tower, Earth Seeker, Basrara 3, etc.). There's a pattern there that's not that difficult to identify.

 

[DCharlie]

I think people are just trying to get to -unknown reason X-. I mean, you look at Skward Sword and the dissapointing result isn't far off or uncharacteristic from the similar dissapointing results of action, adventure and role playing games on Wii the past two years (Xenoblade, Last Story, Other M, Reginliev, Pandora's Tower, Earth Seeker, Basrara 3, etc.). There's a pattern there that's not that difficult to identify.

I think there's also questions of shipping numbers. For instance - Pandora's Tower is rising and rising in price second hand. People want it and it's going up and getting harder to find.

Reginliev is easier to find but is still at the 3480-4000 yen range second hand - it's -still- holding value.

Last Story just out and out bombed - it was 1980 yen in no time.

Same thing for Zelda - the second hand game is holding it's value so that might suggest the shipment was close to demand or people buying the game just aren't selling it on (and there's demand) - or of course it's still a prime Nintendo franchise and it -should- hold it's value. I've tried to figure out -unknown reason X- and i don't think it's as simple as it sounds. For 3rd parties - as i've stated recently - i'm stunned at how little shelf space games get on 3ds in stores. I've had to ask for games when looking for them (same again yesterday), yet i CANNOT MISS Monster Hunter, Mario Kart or Mario.

I'm sure they want it, but they also knew they were launching in a lousy situation. It would be prudent to reduce their chances at "domination" somewhat in exchange for also reducing the chances of losing a ton of money. It's a question of risk vs. reward; the Vita is a less sensible platform to take a risk on than PSP was, which inevitably means the reward upside is a bit less as well.

It really depends on what their battle plan for this year really is. At the moment it looks muddled and confused. Now i've stuck the boot in to Sony many many times over the years, but i can't see even them being stupid enough to literally roll out the exact same approach but this time with added security and higher specs. Rumour has it they were talking with 3rd parties extensively so assumption is they at least have -some- heavy hitters or some ideas that are going to help propel the machine. I personally at this point in time have no idea what the could possibly be - but should be fun finding out.

 

[clemenx]

I saw it discussed in some pages but how good would an the eventual Pokemon Gray sell? I don't think it's good for a pokemon game to have half of the generation in the previous Gen System, how would it connect with the DS games?

I think Nintendo should bypass the "3rd title" for Gen V and throw Pokemon Gen VI out of nowhere in late 2013.

 

[Alexios]

They should make Grey for DS & include 3DS mode with higher res, 3D, camera use, and whatever else. 3DS Enhanced!

 

[durrrrrrrrrr]

I think Tales makes a good example of core games decline on Wii, the low budget escort game made by new staff having sold on par with the promoted and bundled Team Destiny mainline just a year and a half later. Symphonia KOR was a decent result and gave a positive indication for the series/genre potential on Wii, Graces was definitetly not in either respect. To me this illustrates a heavy decline and market erosion for these sorts of games on the platform, and seemingly did the same for Namco. I don't know if that "proves without any doubt" my position, but that seems a pretty high goalpost to suddenly set. I wouldn't say Orgen's hit that bar, would you?

not really, ToS2 was just Namco poisoning the well like starting with TotT on DS. 'test' games almost always end up subpar and ruining the series for the platform. ToH was a fine game, i'm sure that one crashed and burned as well.

 

[Busaiku]

They should make Grey for DS & include 3DS mode with higher res, 3D, camera use, and whatever else. 3DS Enhanced!

I just need WPA2 support already.

 

[qq more]

They should make Grey for DS & include 3DS mode with higher res, 3D, camera use, and whatever else. 3DS Enhanced!

B/W already supports camera (and I think HG/SS too?) So I think that part is already covered!

 

[DCharlie]

but what about AR Pokemon so they can sell us a bunch of sweet collectable cards?!

 

[Mpl90]

I think Xenoblade would have done 250-300k if it had been released earlier. The Last Story 200k. Being earlier in the life of Wii would have certainly helped: more attention towards the platform, healty environment still, especially for first party content and with PS3 still limited in appeal. This is what I'm saying, basically.

However, top 50 is out. Just an anticipation

WII - 15
3DS - 10
NDS - 8
PSP - 7
PS3 - 6
VITA - 4

 

[DCharlie]

think Xenoblade

again, second hand price is high and becoming harder to find. Would be great if we could somehow get actual shipping figures.

 

[Takao]

but what about AR Pokemon so they can sell us a bunch of sweet collectable cards?!

Why SCE has never pushed Invizimals more I don't know...

 

[Alexios]

B/W already supports camera (and I think HG/SS too?) So I think that part is already covered!

Not THREE DEE camera!

 

[Mpl90]

21./25. [WII] Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games <SPT> (Nintendo) {2011.12.08} (¥5.800)
22./19. [PSP] Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball 2011 Ketteiban <SPT> (Konami) {2011.12.22} (¥5.250)
23./35. [PSP] Little Battlers eXperience: Boost <RPG> (Level 5) {2011.11.23} (¥4.980)
24./18. [PS3] Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - Dubbed Edition <ACT> (Square Enix) {2011.12.22} (¥7.980)
25./39. [WII] PokePark 2: Beyond the World <ADV> (Pokemon Co.) {2011.11.12} (¥5.800)
26./27. [WII] Itadaki Street Wii <TBL> (Square Enix) {2011.12.01} (¥6.090)
27./10. [3DS] SD Gundam G Generation 3D # <SLG> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.12.22} (¥6.090)
28./41. [WII] New Super Mario Bros. Wii <ACT> (Nintendo) {2009.12.03} (¥5.800)
29./28. [PSV] Hot Shots Golf: World Invitational <SPT> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2011.12.17} (¥4.980)
30./40. [3DS] Pokemon Rumble Blast <ACT> (Pokemon Co.) {2011.08.11} (¥4.800)
31./38. [NDS] Kirby Mass Attack <ACT> (Nintendo) {2011.08.04} (¥3.800)
32./30. [PS3] Mobile Suit Gundam Extreme Vs. <ACT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.12.01} (¥8.380)
33./20. [PSP] Frontier Gate <RPG> (Konami) {2011.12.22} (¥5.250) - 15.800 / 44.443 (-45%)
34./45. [WII] Family Fishing # <SPT> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.08.04} (¥5.040)
35./44. [PSP] Hatsune Miku: Project Diva Extend <ACT> (Sega) {2011.11.10} (¥5.299)
36./32. [WII] The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword # <ADV> (Nintendo) {2011.11.23} (¥6.800)
37./42. [3DS] The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D <ADV> (Nintendo) {2011.06.16} (¥4.800)
38./00. [PSP] AKB1/48: Idol to Guam de Koishitara... # <ADV> (Bandai Namco) {2011.10.06} (¥5.229)
39./00. [NDS] Mario Kart DS (Nintendo) {2005-12-08} (¥4.800)
40./29. [PSV] Uncharted: Golden Abyss <ADV> (Sony Computer Entertainment) {2011.12.17} (¥5.980)
41./33. [PS3] Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball 2011 Ketteiban <SPT> (Konami) {2011.12.22} (¥6.980)
42./00. [3DS] Nicola Kanshuu: Model Oshare Audition 2 <SLG> (Alchemist) {2011.11.03} (¥5.980)
43./00. [NDS] Tamagotchi Collection <ETC> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.11.10} (¥5.040)
44./34. [PSV] Dynasty Warriors Next <ACT> (Koei Tecmo) {2011.12.17} (¥6.090)
45./50. [NDS] Pokemon Black / White <RPG> (Pokemon Co.) {2010.09.18} (¥4.800)
46./00. [NDS] New Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo) {2006-05-25}
47./47. [PS3] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2012 <SPT> (Konami) {2011.10.06} (¥7.980)
48./00. [3DS] Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime 3 <ACT> (Square Enix) {2011.11.02} (¥6.090)
49./00. [NDS] Power Pro Kun Pocket 14 <SLG> (Konami) {2011.12.01} (¥5.250)
50./36. [PSV] Lord of Apocalypse <RPG> (Square Enix) {2011.12.17} (¥5.980)

 

[AniHawk]

probably the last time we'll see nsmb and mario kart ds in the top 50.

i know i said that last year, but i really mean it this time.

 

[Mpl90]

probably the last time we'll see nsmb and mario kart ds in the top 50.

i know i said that last year, but i really mean it this time.

We'll see at least one of them this year end too, don't worry.

 

[Man God]

I saw it discussed in some pages but how good would an the eventual Pokemon Gray sell? I don't think it's good for a pokemon game to have half of the generation in the previous Gen System, how would it connect with the DS games?

I think Nintendo should bypass the "3rd title" for Gen V and throw Pokemon Gen VI out of nowhere in late 2013.

You do realize isn't Nintendo's first rodeo with split console 3rd games and that one did very well for itself.

 

[Gravijah]

I saw it discussed in some pages but how good would an the eventual Pokemon Gray sell? I don't think it's good for a pokemon game to have half of the generation in the previous Gen System, how would it connect with the DS games?

I think Nintendo should bypass the "3rd title" for Gen V and throw Pokemon Gen VI out of nowhere in late 2013.

so you're saying we should go 3 years without a mainline pokemon entry?

 

[Kenka]

We'll see at least one of them this year end too, don't worry.

They will both be charting there next year at Obon.


Mario Kart 2011 outsold Mario Kart 2010.
New Super Mario sold 250k last year which is probably more than Xenoblade, a fresh release, and it is its fifth year on the market.

So, no real doubt.

 

[Mpl90]

However

42./00. [3DS] Nicola Kanshuu: Model Oshare Audition 2 <SLG> (Alchemist) {2011.11.03} (¥5.980)
43./00. [NDS] Tamagotchi Collection <ETC> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.11.10} (¥5.040)
44./34. [PSV] Dynasty Warriors Next <ACT> (Koei Tecmo) {2011.12.17} (¥6.090)

...Lol?

 

[Cygnus X-1]

probably the last time we'll see nsmb and mario kart ds in the top 50.

i know i said that last year, but i really mean it this time.

Yes. Till Golden Week.

 

[electroplankton]

However

42./00. [3DS] Nicola Kanshuu: Model Oshare Audition 2 <SLG> (Alchemist) {2011.11.03} (¥5.980)
43./00. [NDS] Tamagotchi Collection <ETC> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.11.10} (¥5.040)
44./34. [PSV] Dynasty Warriors Next <ACT> (Koei Tecmo) {2011.12.17} (¥6.090)

...Lol?

Nicola.

 

[Road]

Dengeki Sales, Jan 02 - 08, 2012

01. (01) [3DS] Mario Kart 7 (Nintendo) - 153,166 / 1,304,646 (+30%)
02. (03) [3DS] Super Mario 3D Land (Nintendo) - 118,526 / 1,197,719 (+52%)
03. (02) [3DS] Monster Hunter Tri G (Capcom) - 95,118 / 1,069,817 (-3%)
04. (04) [PS3] Warriors Orochi 2 (Koei Tecmo) - 41,135 / 313,667 (-43%)
05. (06) [WII] Just Dance Wii (Nintendo) - 39,370 / 504,343 (-1%)
06. (07) [WII] Kirby's Return to Dream Land (Nintendo) - 35,733 / 563,915 (+27%)
07. (08) [3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Shine (Level 5) - 33,486 / 190,668 (+32%)
08. (05) [PS3] Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Square Enix) - 32,900 / 715,744 (-38%)
09. (10) [3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Dark (Level 5) - 32,269 / 155,585
10. (11) [WII] Go Vacation (Bandai Namco) - 30,094 / 254,165
11. (09) [WII] Wii Party (Nintendo) - 29,986 / ?
12. (17) [WII] Wii Sports Resort (Nintendo) - 25,241 / ?
13. (15) [WII] Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo) - 24,186 / ?
14. (13) [WII] Inazuma Eleven Strikers 2012 Xtreme (Level 5) - 24,100 / ?
15. (23) [NDS] Magician's Quest: Osharena Mahoutsukai (Konami) - 22,425 / ?
16. (18) [PSP] Monster Hunter Freedom 3 [PSP the Best] (Capcom) - 21,517 / ?
17. (22) [WII] Taiko Drum Master Wii: Ketteiban (Bandai Namco) - 18,894 / ?
18. (25) [NDS] One Piece: Gigant Battle! 2 New World (Bandai Namco) - 18,600 / ?
19. (14) [WII] Rhythm Heaven Fever (Nintendo) - 17,952 / ?
20. (24) [PSP] Little Battlers eXperience - Boost (Level 5) - 17,217 / ?


http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/445/445667/
http://megalodon.jp/2012-0113-2030-28/news.dengeki.com/soft/ranking/ranking.html

Week 52, 2011: 12-19~12-25

 

[Mpl90]

Dengeki Sales, Jan 02 - 08, 2012

01. (01) [3DS] Mario Kart 7 (Nintendo) - 153,166 / 1,304,646 (+30%)
02. (03) [3DS] Super Mario 3D Land (Nintendo) - 118,526 / 1,197,719 (+52%)
03. (02) [3DS] Monster Hunter Tri G (Capcom) - 95,118 / 1,069,817 (-3%)
04. (04) [PS3] Warriors Orochi 2 (Koei Tecmo) - 41,135 / 313,667 (-43%)
05. (06) [WII] Just Dance Wii (Nintendo) - 39,370 / 504,343 (-1%)
06. (07) [WII] Kirby's Return to Dream Land (Nintendo) - 35,733 / 563,915 (+27%)
07. (08) [3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Shine (Level 5) - 33,486 / 190,668 (+32%)
08. (05) [PS3] Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Square Enix) - 32,900 / 715,744 (-38%)
09. (10) [3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Dark (Level 5) - 32,269 / 155,585
10. (11) [WII] Go Vacation (Bandai Namco) - 30,094 / 254,165
11. (09) [WII] Wii Party (Nintendo) - 29,986 / ?
12. (17) [WII] Wii Sports Resort (Nintendo) - 25,241 / ?
13. (15) [WII] Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo) - 24,186 / ?
14. (13) [WII] Inazuma Eleven Strikers 2012 Xtreme (Level 5) - 24,100 / ?
15. (23) [NDS] Magician's Quest: Osharena Mahoutsukai (Konami) - 22,425 / ?
16. (18) [PSP] Monster Hunter Freedom 3 [PSP the Best] (Capcom) - 21,517 / ?
17. (22) [WII] Taiko Drum Master Wii: Ketteiban (Bandai Namco) - 18,894 / ?
18. (25) [NDS] One Piece: Gigant Battle! 2 New World (Bandai Namco) - 18,600 / ?
19. (14) [WII] Rhythm Heaven Fever (Nintendo) - 17,952 / ?
20. (24) [PSP] Little Battlers eXperience - Boost (Level 5) - 17,217 / ?


http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/445/445667/
http://megalodon.jp/2012-0113-2030-28/news.dengeki.com/soft/ranking/ranking.html

Week 52, 2011: 12-19~12-25

11./13. [WII] Go Vacation <ETC> (Bandai Namco Games) {2011.10.20} (¥5.800) - 26.852 / 208.017 (+39%)
10. (11) [WII] Go Vacation (Bandai Namco) - 30,094 / 254,165

Wow at the difference.

 

[Kenka]

Dengeki has a similar record to MC regarding top 4. Differences are almost null. That's outstanding.

 

[Orgen]

This still doesn't really prove me wrong. I stated that the Wii's "Hardcore" audience left. Mario, Kirby, Dragon Quest, Just Dance, Donkey Kong, and Rhythm Heaven are all mainstream ips that sell millions and there are also several games in similar genres that have allowed the audience to thrive(2d platformer and fitness audience). Zelda isn't one of these, it hasn't reached a million sales since 1996. There has been no Zelda type game(action-adventure) that has succeeded on the Wii and been made popular other than TP as a launch title.

What is your reasoning that Zelda didn't sell well? You actually adamantly proved that there was never an audience on the Wii for RPG and action-adventure titles.

So, in your opinion Zelda is a hardcore ip and not a mainstream one? be careful with your answer here!

I know what you have stated. Now throw some evidence (numbers?) that shows me that the hardcore audience has left the Wii in Japan. Seeing that Mario and Kirby examples don't count (games that are selling now the same or more than their previous entries) look for some games comparable with Xenoblade and Last Story that sold buttloads before (I'll give you two hints: Dragon Quest Swords and MonHun Tri, because any other example will prove my point).

Heck, I'll do it for you! (MC numbers from Chris database)

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (27/11/06): 560.961
Elebits (27/11/06): 66.234
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (19/02/07): 159.070
Super Paper Mario (16/04/07): 502.686
Dragon Quest: Swords (09/07/07): 521.268
Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon (10/12/07): 100.423
Shiren the Wanderer 3 (02/06/08): 107.718
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World (23/06/08): 210.042
One Piece: Unlimited Cruise 1 - The Treasure Beneath the Waves (08/09/08): 147.604
Disaster: Day of Crisis (22/09/08): 33.968
Rune Factory Frontier (24/11/08): 42.235
Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of the Moon (19/01/09): 39.101
One Piece: Unlimited Cruise 2 - Awakening of the Hero (23/02/09): 109.859
Monster Hunter G (20/04/09): 242.129
Arc Rise Fantasia (01/06/09): 49.052
Monster Hunter 3 (27/07/09): 958.515
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers (09/11/09): 56.566
Pokepark: Pikachu's Adventure (30/11/09): 280.539
Samurai Warriors 3 (30/11/09): 230.592
Tales of Graces (07/12/09): 194.378

And a lot more sub 100K. And then...

Xenoblade (07/06/10): 103.762 (Last number known 20/06/10)
The Last Story (27/01/11): 157.359 (Famitsu numbers)

I bolded the more comparable examples (Mario & Pokemon are mainstream and don't count, right? ;P) and I could argue that MH and DQ are two franchises with a dedicated fanbase that will buy the game no matter the system.

Sooooooo... where's the decline?

And for why Zelda didn't sell... I don't know :/ Maybe a combination of circumstances like high price, not enough Motion Plus, some people disinterested in the franchise/console (but not 300K persons, mind you), not enough advertising... made the game sell a lot less. But I'm not in Japan so I can't gauge the situation regarding the game.

That's because I don't say "hardcore have left the Wii!" to justify the bomb sales of SS. Maybe it's a factor (not a major one IMO) but there's more than that for sure.

No we're not in agreement since I stated the games would've sold more earlier in the cycle. That to me doesn't indicate "no impact", indeed quite the opposite.

I'm not going to waste my time much more since it's abundantly clear you're not actually interested in any real reasoning or context as to why certain Wii games sell or not, your dismissive language and tone indicates you're not really interested in discussion at all and your drive-by DQX trolling probably exposes why. Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite.

Selling 30K-50K more for me is a "no impact" situation and doesn't show any decline in the hardcore audience for the Wii RPG, sorry.

And about the discussion, Cipherr said it better than me:

I find the second part of your post humorous, seeing as it would hinge on how exactly you would manage to, without any doubt, prove the highlighted... Say what you want about his position, but he backed it with more than just assumptions. He brought you concrete numbers, if you are reflexing with what you 'feel' those games may have sold years ago, you don't really have much room to be calling anyone out on not being interested in 'reasonable' conversation.

Honestly I don't see why any of you all feel like any of that is relevant anyway.

But don't worry, because even if I think this is irrelevant too (you can't prove that the RPG audience has left the system) I'll give you some more entertainment:

I think Tales makes a good example of core games decline on Wii, the low budget escort game made by new staff having sold on par with the promoted and bundled Team Destiny mainline just a year and a half later. Symphonia KOR was a decent result and gave a positive indication for the series/genre potential on Wii, Graces was definitetly not in either respect. To me this illustrates a heavy decline and market erosion for these sorts of games on the platform, and seemingly did the same for Namco. I don't know if that "proves without any doubt" my position, but that seems a pretty high goalpost to suddenly set. I wouldn't say Orgen's hit that bar, would you?

So, your example of heavy decline is this?

Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the World (23/06/08): 210.042
Tales of Graces (07/12/09): 194.378

Maybe it's because Tales has a dedicated fanbase of 200K people outside Sony platforms.

Tales of Vesperia: 200.885
Tales of the Tempest: 191.268
Tales of Innocence: 236.129
Tales of Hearts (CG+Anime Edition): 252.309

Any other examples?

I think people are just trying to get to -unknown reason X-. I mean, you look at Skward Sword and the dissapointing result isn't far off or uncharacteristic from the similar dissapointing results of action, adventure and role playing games on Wii the past two years (Xenoblade, Last Story, Other M, Reginliev, Pandora's Tower, Earth Seeker, Basrara 3, etc.). There's a pattern there that's not that difficult to identify.

So we have 5 new IP's (Xenoblade, Last Story, Reginliev, Pandora's Tower, Earth Seeker), a game from an irrelevant franchise in Japan (Other M) and a multiplatform game (Sengoku Basara 3).

I could make excuses for all this titles (niche developer (Reginliev), trash game (Earth Seeker), irrelevant game (Other M), multiplatform game (Basara 3) and new IP's (XB, LS and PT)). But do you know? Just like Lord_Byron28 I'll let you show me another similar examples (new IP, RPG's, action/adventure, multiplatform...) that sold better in the past so I can see this heavy decline in the hardcore audience you are talking about.

And just for fun (I don't have the numbers in hand, sorry):

Seeing that Yakuza of the End sold 150K less than Yakuza 3&4, that Ni No Kuni won't sell more than 150K and FF XIII-2 won't sell half of what FF XIII sold... would you think that the PS3 RPG audience is declining too?

I saw it discussed in some pages but how good would an the eventual Pokemon Gray sell? I don't think it's good for a pokemon game to have half of the generation in the previous Gen System, how would it connect with the DS games?

I think Nintendo should bypass the "3rd title" for Gen V and throw Pokemon Gen VI out of nowhere in late 2013.

;D haha (I'm with you on this).