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Media Create Sales: Week 39, 2011 (Sep 26 - Oct 02)
- Thread starter Chris1964
- Start date
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
But it was clear from the start? As in no DS Tales came close to Eternia PSP, yet they kept trying for 4 years.Takao said:
Takao said:
3DS isnt 3DS though - we know how Resident Evil looked on DS or Monster Hunter clones.
Those were series where the DS hardware just couldnt deliver the presentation which fans had gotten used to. With the 3DS its a whole other story, they will have 4GB/8GB cartdiges ready so fmv/cut-scenes and a ton of voice-work which is expected from a tales of title can be brought to the system.
They tried hard on the DS though. ToH especially was a solid lookin title - though they probably lost some fans after TotT.
lunchwithyuzo said:
And it will be the same this time.
They have shareholder too and once the 3DS has sold past a certain number they will have to support it with their key ips - its always like that. Higher Userbase + likely less dev-costs mean that the Vita title would have to outsell it by a good margin to keep the series from releasing on 3DS.
I wouldnt be suprised to see Vita/Ps3 Multi Tales of titles though.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
They skipped the first few and last few years of the DS.lunchwithyuzo said:
Tempest October 2006
Innocence December 2007
Hearts December 2008
The Tales of arguement is very compelling and interesting.
Xillia demonstrated that the userbase is possibly
1)Very loyal to the Sony brand
or
2)Not so happy to buy every system of the world to satisfy their Tales of desires, and so they tend to reward when a single platform is chosen.
Or it is a combination of these two possible motivations.
Or maybe it's just the way they prepared the coming of the main chapter to PS3.
Certainly, Vesperia and Graces results say that userbase liked those games, but they wanted them on PS3 (maybe for more compelling textures... naaaaah, this is not the West we are talking about
). And since they did very good, a truly new chapter was destined to do better.
But sincerly no one expected 600k. The return of the old times.
Maybe, it helped the lack of a proper competition from Square, just like what happened with Gust, Compile Hearts and others who saw a rare possibility of developing for a platform with a good RPG love without the main SH of the genre developing a lot; but it has been also how they paved the way to it and userbase's Sony loyalty.
The same can be said, even if not with main entries, for PSP: the brand has been introduced with ports, and then Radiant Mythology, Vs. ... doing better than most of the main entries released in the recent years.
So... will they entirely duck 3DS in favour of Vita and PS3?
If the platform continues to sell in this way, they can't: Namco doesn't leave money on the table.
And I think we'll see at least one main entry on 3DS.
But IMHO it would never do as much as...let's say...Vesperia's port (400k), because it seems Square will support a lot the platform, and this reduce the space for a Tales of game to use. At least, 3DS already has a remake of a Tales of, a remake doing probably better than two of the three ones released on PSP, which still can grow thanks to Holidays and its being a first year software...so maybe they prepared the userbase a bit better this time.
But Xillia's results will be impossible. For the different environment and "different" audience composition.
Xillia demonstrated that the userbase is possibly
1)Very loyal to the Sony brand
or
2)Not so happy to buy every system of the world to satisfy their Tales of desires, and so they tend to reward when a single platform is chosen.
Or it is a combination of these two possible motivations.
Or maybe it's just the way they prepared the coming of the main chapter to PS3.
Certainly, Vesperia and Graces results say that userbase liked those games, but they wanted them on PS3 (maybe for more compelling textures... naaaaah, this is not the West we are talking about
). And since they did very good, a truly new chapter was destined to do better.But sincerly no one expected 600k. The return of the old times.
Maybe, it helped the lack of a proper competition from Square, just like what happened with Gust, Compile Hearts and others who saw a rare possibility of developing for a platform with a good RPG love without the main SH of the genre developing a lot; but it has been also how they paved the way to it and userbase's Sony loyalty.
The same can be said, even if not with main entries, for PSP: the brand has been introduced with ports, and then Radiant Mythology, Vs. ... doing better than most of the main entries released in the recent years.
So... will they entirely duck 3DS in favour of Vita and PS3?
If the platform continues to sell in this way, they can't: Namco doesn't leave money on the table.
And I think we'll see at least one main entry on 3DS.
But IMHO it would never do as much as...let's say...Vesperia's port (400k), because it seems Square will support a lot the platform, and this reduce the space for a Tales of game to use. At least, 3DS already has a remake of a Tales of, a remake doing probably better than two of the three ones released on PSP, which still can grow thanks to Holidays and its being a first year software...so maybe they prepared the userbase a bit better this time.
But Xillia's results will be impossible. For the different environment and "different" audience composition.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Don't forget that Graces Wii and TOI/TOH were handicapped in comparison to the Sony Tales of titles.
Graces was handicapped by the bad reception of TOS2 and its moronic release date (1 week after NSMB Wii and 1 week before FF13), while TOI and TOH were handicapped by the fact that they were outsourced and released after the disaster that was Tales of the Tempest (which set back expectations for DS Tales of games)
There's much more to the Tales sales than just platform holder loyalty.
At the very least, what we know for certain is that graphic fidelity does not factor into the sales of Tales games in any significant fashion (see Graces F and Xillia's sales)
Graces was handicapped by the bad reception of TOS2 and its moronic release date (1 week after NSMB Wii and 1 week before FF13), while TOI and TOH were handicapped by the fact that they were outsourced and released after the disaster that was Tales of the Tempest (which set back expectations for DS Tales of games)
There's much more to the Tales sales than just platform holder loyalty.
At the very least, what we know for certain is that graphic fidelity does not factor into the sales of Tales games in any significant fashion (see Graces F and Xillia's sales)
Vesperia, Graces and Xillia.
Tempest, Innocence and Hearts.
Its not hard to see why the DS titles didnt sold as much, besides of the DSs technical limitations. They where labeled as "mothership" but the first 2, and especially Tempest was horrible and havent been developed by the main teams. So its easy to say that the games didnt sell on DS, when Hearts was the only really good one. But after two mediocre titles who can blame fans for not trusting Bamco and their DS out comings ?
No one ever gave a damn about those Tales of main-charas, where heroes like Yuri had been hyped by all tales of fangirls for years after release. Ps3 got definitive versions of two of the best versions ever and the probably most-hyped new entry of the franchise the developed by their top-team.
Tempest, Innocence and Hearts.
Its not hard to see why the DS titles didnt sold as much, besides of the DSs technical limitations. They where labeled as "mothership" but the first 2, and especially Tempest was horrible and havent been developed by the main teams. So its easy to say that the games didnt sell on DS, when Hearts was the only really good one. But after two mediocre titles who can blame fans for not trusting Bamco and their DS out comings ?
No one ever gave a damn about those Tales of main-charas, where heroes like Yuri had been hyped by all tales of fangirls for years after release. Ps3 got definitive versions of two of the best versions ever and the probably most-hyped new entry of the franchise the developed by their top-team.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Hearts was developed by Tales Studio, even though Tempest (Dimps) and Innocence (Alfasystem) weren't.
Magicpaint
Member
Really.Nuclear Muffin said:
Bad reception for Tales of Legendia did not stop people from buying Tales of the Abyss a few months after. ToS2 was not even THAT bad (considering it featured technology that wasn't even used in main games). It certainly wasn't Tempest bad. That's not a good enough excuse.Nuclear Muffin said:
Release date? Neither. ToR released near DQVIII and TotA released near KHII. Didn't seem to affect those titles much. What you're saying is that a Tales game on a Nintendo platform shouldn't be released near the release dates of other big titles? Especially during a holiday season where the market is much healthier?
Yeah but I don't buy those excuses.Nuclear Muffin said:
What we DO know for certain is that for some unexplainable reason, Tales games perform MUCH better on Sony systems than they do on Nintendo systems. This has been true from the very first release of ToP for the Super Famicom where the PS1 remake vastly outperformed the original.Nuclear Muffin said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
ReyBrujo said:
Read the title carefully. Cumulative sales from the previous 52 weeks. It might be more accurate to say "rolling sales window of the last 52 weeks".
I thought it was only Wii and DS but I hadn't noticed PSP also took a big hit these last 6 months. If there aren't the big titles the increased number of lower profile games has no chance to balance the sales. Type-0 is PSP's last big title, it will be interesting to see how things will look next year.Road said:Famitsu FY 2011 first half conference
PSP hardware and software sales by fiscal year
Edit: No, they are comparing previous full FY to the first half of this one.
I think what will be the most interesting thing to see is if ToI-R can prove that people on Sony handhelds (or possibly handhelds in general) actually want a handheld Tales game deeper than cross-over spinoffs.
The ports of console games fell off pretty hard after Eternia, NDX didn't really do anything too special, and I don't think any of the DS games got past the 300K mark, but the Radiant Mythology games do really well in comparison and even VS seems to have done pretty comparable numbers to most of the DS games. I'm not sure if there's a lot of interest in a console-style Tales game on a handheld, Sony or otherwise.
The ports of console games fell off pretty hard after Eternia, NDX didn't really do anything too special, and I don't think any of the DS games got past the 300K mark, but the Radiant Mythology games do really well in comparison and even VS seems to have done pretty comparable numbers to most of the DS games. I'm not sure if there's a lot of interest in a console-style Tales game on a handheld, Sony or otherwise.
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Magicpaint said:
Tales of Legendia was not the first Tales game to hit the PS2. Before that you had Tales of Destiny 2, Tales of Rebirth and Tales of Syphonia PS2. One bad game is not enough to destroy a streak of solid releases like that (and on top of that, you also have the solid streak of quality titles from the PS1 onwards too that showed that Namco were serious with Sony platforms)
TOS2 however was the first Tales game to hit the Wii and set the expectations for all future games on the platform. Same goes for Tempest. The fact that the "real" Tales of game hit the 360, while the Wii got spin off scraps spoke volumes.
Magicpaint said:
The audience for Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are very different. Dragon Quest is a far more wide reaching game in terms of demographics (and the Disney link with KH also makes its demographics much more widespread too). Final Fantasy and the Tales series however, feature much more overlap in terms of demographics and as such, Final Fantasy eats into the sales of Tales games much more so than DQ or KH.
Magicpaint said:
The series had grown much moreso by then. TOP SNES was released at the end of its life as well. TOP PS1 outselling TOP SNES was to be expected as the series' total fanbase had increased by an order of magnitude by then.
Magicpaint
Member
I could argue that despite extra content Symphonia PS2 was a pretty sloppy port, which would even things out, but that's far reaching, as is the idea that a solid spinoff like ToS: KoR somehow poisoned the well so deep that a high quality mainline Tales wasn't even able to do better. At least we saw actual improvements after Tempest with Innocence -> Hearts.Nuclear Muffin said:
You say this but then you used NSMB Wii as an example yourself of how ToG's sales might be affected. I mean come on, it just sounds like you're digging very deep into conjecture now.Nuclear Muffin said:
The question then is WHY did it grow? CT didn't have much trouble selling well late in the life of the SNES so why did ToP struggle?Nuclear Muffin said:
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Magicpaint said:
I would argue that FF13's proximity was a much stronger factor than NSMBWii, but it may have had some level of impact as well.
Magicpaint said:
Chrono Trigger came from Squaresoft, who were a powerhouse brand. It also had creative input from Yuji Horri and Akira Toriyama of Dragon Quest fame, which of course lent it even more brand recognition and hype.
Tales of Phantasia however came from Namco, who weren't known for their RPGs. They were starting from scratch, while CT was able to leverage the Squaresoft and Horri/Toriyama brands.
Over time however, Namco were able to grow and establish the Tales series as the 3rd largest RPG brand in Japan during the PS1 and PS2 era (at least until Kingdom Hearts pushed it into 4th place) by releasing quality titles with a strong USP (being the first Action RPG series of its kind), celebrity endorsement (pop group songs) and strong merchandising and promotion.
Magicpaint
Member
What kind of impact are we looking at? Especially as you easily downplayed the potential impact of DQVIII/KHII? Those were of a similar genre (unlike NSMB Wii) AND on the same console (unlike FFXIII).Nuclear Muffin said:
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Magicpaint said:
I'm talking about the impact amongst those who could have become new fans of the series, who may have never played a Tales game before.
Those who may only have a Wii and were hungry for something new. NSMB Wii might have taken away sales in terms of people who may have given TOG a chance as their first Tales game.
Magicpaint
Member
You may be right but I just don't see how this is based on anything concrete. For me the hard numbers are far too striking for me to give much weight to the hypotheses you're throwing out.Nuclear Muffin said:
Nuclear Muffin
Banned
Magicpaint said:
So you choose to believe that platform holder loyalty is the number one reason then? Surely at the very least you can appreciate the impact that these decisions have made on the potential sales of these Tales games? (which would otherwise have been much higher if they hadn't been handicapped) Never mind the influence of the general poor quality of most 3rd party Wii titles (which may have pushed people towards buying 1st party games only)
Platform holder loyalty may have had some impact, but I do not believe that it is as big a reason as the other factors that I listed. Not for one second.
Magicpaint
Member
I don't claim to have the answers I just don't buy these excuses/reasoning that's all. They're not compelling enough. And trust me being a big Tales of fan, I take interest in the sales pattern of these games.Nuclear Muffin said:
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
Anyway, beyond Tales I'm eager to see how Musou Vs and WE2012 perform on 3DS and if they can pass their predecessors. WE had a great debut on Wii way back, but Konami mishandling later installments (late releases, zero promotion) led to the series sinking on the system. I hope they don't repeat that with 3DS.
And after SSF4, I wonder why Capcom hasn't announced SFxT or UMVC3 for 3DS yet?
And after SSF4, I wonder why Capcom hasn't announced SFxT or UMVC3 for 3DS yet?
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
lol, no wonder Sony lost Monster Hunter. Twice.Takao said:
test_account
XP-39C²
Of course Sony will never ban some developers just because they make games for other system. Every game that comes out for Sony platform will generate money for Sony through royalties, so even if they just get 1 game from Capcom, then that will bring more money in than 0 games.
Sony will never ban some developers just because they make games for other system. Every game that comes out for Sony platform will generate money for Sony through royalties, so even if they just get 1 game from Capcom, then that will bring more money in than 0 games.On consoles Xillia is the first and only case of a later Tales game outselling the first Tales game on a given system. On handhelds traditional Tales games just don't fly, as shown by Hearts and NDX (the only real efforts in that regard on DS respectively PSP, both with very lackluster sales compared to console entries). So far RM style crossover games sell much better on handheld systems than any traditional games, be it ports or original.Magicpaint said:
BurntPork said:
no inafune ratted about capcommunist's ways, and troubles with sony in a recent interview
Jaded Alyx
Member
That doesn't even sound like Inafune. I call shenanigans.Takao said:
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Graces Wii also suffered through a recall due to bugs, since people are discussing that. I don't think it did bad anyway. Less than PS3, sure. But since when are 200k extra sales in a single region not worth it? The only reason not to keep providing the other titles on it too is if they assumed that the whole fanbase also has a PS3 and the only reason the Wii got those sales was that it was out on it first, and it wouldn't have sold at all if it was a simultaneous release or if people knew a PS3 version is coming...
Graces poor sales on Wii aren't rocket science. Tales game that came before it wasn't crash hot, and it was on a system that hadn't built up a reliable core audience due to a lack of broad third-party support.
I'm sure releasing so close to FFXIII had some impact, but there was no way Tales games were going to do as well on Wii as they eventually did on PS3 considering the disparity in third-party support.
As to how support will go on handhelds this generation, I'm not expecting much. Spinoffs and ports on both systems with the main games on PS3 would be the smart move. But who knows with Namco.
I'm sure releasing so close to FFXIII had some impact, but there was no way Tales games were going to do as well on Wii as they eventually did on PS3 considering the disparity in third-party support.
As to how support will go on handhelds this generation, I'm not expecting much. Spinoffs and ports on both systems with the main games on PS3 would be the smart move. But who knows with Namco.
The Graces "recall" shouldn't have much effect on the first week sales, only on its legs (which are negligible for Tales games anyway). The stories about Graces being buggy are way overblown for that matter, there were are couple glitchy corner cases for new game+ as well as some exploitable battles, nothing out of the ordinary with previous entries where such stuff either never got fixed (Abyss) or only in some full price DC release (Destiny PS2). The Abyss 3DS port has way graver bugs, one which apparently corrupts the save...
charlequin
Banned
Mpl90 said:
I do think 2) is relevant (and that's part of why Xillia saw an uptick in sales) but I think the "RPG-friendly platform/umbrella game" theory is the most important. Over the past five years, there have been three systems with strong libraries and performances by RPGs in Japan: DS, PSP, and PS3. The first of the three had potential as a Tales system but Namco salted the Earth with TotT. The other two both became successful homes for the Tales series.
Magicpaint said:
This is, at best, sort of a jumbled correlation/causation fallacy.
I'm agreeing more with Magicpaint on this. You can try to guess the reasons for why Tales doesn't do too well on Nintendo or other non-Sony platforms as much as you want. But the fact remains that Tales and the other not quite mainstream RPGs which became semi big on Playstation continue to do better on Sony turf.charlequin said:
There is a preference hinting with this audience and it also shows with the DS which aside from the big SE mainstream titles which appeal to an audience beyond the pure RPG one did not perform that great compared to earlier or current Sony ones. Rather sales are more in line with the SNES days.
I always thought PS era RPGs did better because of lower prices thanks to the new medium (some SNES RPGs cost as much as a Gameboy, a piece of hardware!) but DS showed that even with lower prices the Nintendo RPG fans just don't match the numbers of the Sony ones.
Magicpaint said:
Here two interesting points to the discussion.
1. the best selling handheld Final Fantasy in Japan is FF3 for NDS and not on PSP so far
2. no FF after that sold as well as FF3 on NDS, even FF4 sold considerably worse
As I remember correctly and actually did the same thing, many people complaint about the archaic gameplay and were disappointed by FF3 and didn´t bother to buy the sequel, especially after seeing Crisis Core. If that really was the case, then why shouldn´t the lackluster Tales of Tempest (and several mainline-ports for PSP) have had the same effect on future Tales of games on NDS?
Before PS3 got Xilia, there was FF13 that brought a huge chunk of the RPG fanbase to the PS3 and also two really good and well recieived Tales of games with Vesperia and Graces among a relative good number of other RPGs. I think that played a big part. What did Wii get before, let´s say the Tales of Symphonia- spinoff? Wasn´t it just Opoona? It´s obvious why the Jrpg fanbase wasn´t big on Wii and therefor a big hindrance to better performances for these kind of games.
sinobi:
-Based on preorders and sales of series, AC: AH is estimated to to have a 200k LTD including the bargain edition
-AKB is the main reason for Just Dance Wii preorders at his store
-Forza 4 is expected to have similar sales to Forza 3
-DR2: OTR no very popular
-Super Scribblenauts could have kinda good sales in Japan, WW sales at 2 million
-Based on preorders and sales of series, AC: AH is estimated to to have a 200k LTD including the bargain edition
-AKB is the main reason for Just Dance Wii preorders at his store
-Forza 4 is expected to have similar sales to Forza 3
-DR2: OTR no very popular
-Super Scribblenauts could have kinda good sales in Japan, WW sales at 2 million
qq more said:
Yes, there is.
...And he's not only a common worker
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16015563&postcount=35
galian beast
Banned
Japan consistently commits brand suicide... I could never understand it.
galian beast
Banned
Why are people so shocked and awed?
Look at the following games...
Resident Evil Code Veronica - Released on the Dreamcast
Resident Evil 4 - Gamecube (Remember the Gamecube 5?)
Resident Evil Remake - Gamecube
Resident Evil 0 - Gamecube
Genma Onimusha - 360
Devil May Cry 4 - 360/PS3
Monster Hunter Tri - Wii
Monster Hunter Online - 360
Monster Hunter 4 - 3DS
Why is anyone surprised?
But remind me the results of all of the games listed except for MH4?
Look at the following games...
Resident Evil Code Veronica - Released on the Dreamcast
Resident Evil 4 - Gamecube (Remember the Gamecube 5?)
Resident Evil Remake - Gamecube
Resident Evil 0 - Gamecube
Genma Onimusha - 360
Devil May Cry 4 - 360/PS3
Monster Hunter Tri - Wii
Monster Hunter Online - 360
Monster Hunter 4 - 3DS
Why is anyone surprised?
But remind me the results of all of the games listed except for MH4?
