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Media Create Sales: Week 48, 2011 (Nov 28 - Dec 04)
- Thread starter Chris1964
- Start date
I don't think Nintendo should try going into core gamer genres which they have not had any experience in. They have other developers which they own (or are close with) who can make stuff like that for them. They should focus on their strengths instead of trying stuff that is outside their comfort zone.
Isn't that precisely the problem here though? Everybody is complaining that each franchise rests upon its laurels. How about Nintendo co-develops an ARPG with monoliftsoft or something. Ya know, mono can show ninty the ropes and all.
It's not a massive step into a new genre - that would be FPS. An ARPG can draw upon Zelda. I think you'd like this new Zelda inspired ARPG better.
It's not a massive step into a new genre - that would be FPS. An ARPG can draw upon Zelda. I think you'd like this new Zelda inspired ARPG better.
test_account
XP-39C²
What happends if there are three friends that only own a Vita and one that owns a 3DS, and all are interested in playing MH? Then the 3 friends with Vita are "forced" to buy a 3DS. People need to adapt to the platform regardless if there is an exclusive game on it that they want to play. It can kinda suck to have to buy a whole platform if you're only interested in one game on it (generally speaking, not specifically referring to the 3DS). This problem is somewhat eliminated if the game is multiplatform.
I see MH going multiplatform more as a way to expand and make things easier rather than being hindered by coordination problems. I see the arguement, but it has been like this with PS3 and Xbox 360 for 5 years now, yet it seems to be no big problem. If you want to play with friends on those systems you need the same system regardless if it is local (LAN, some games support this) or online. The system have still sold fine, the same goes with a lot of multiplatform games
Not everyone is complaining about that. I think that there is enough of an audience for traditional Nintendo offerings, and they should not stop serving that audience. At the same time there are other things they can experiment with which could end up being extremely successful, as long as it is something Nintendo can excel at. New Legend of Zelda does not mean that all Zeldas should be canned in favor of that. It means that they can try that out, while brainstorming the next big console Zelda or whatever.
rahuljx
Member
I love, love the idea of returning to the original Zelda design but Im not in favour of randomization because that would mean really generic puzzles. My biggest issue with the new Zeldas is that I just dont get stumped anymore. When the first Zelda came out every puzzle solution had a sense of discovery. While I cant expect them to replicate that, now its just a case of light the torch, shoot the eye, etc. And even when you cant figure it out you know where to go because everything feels highlighted. Remember those days where you find yourself returning to the same rooms over and over again because you missed something? So yes give me smaller dungeons so that its not a pain to check each room.
They also need to stop designing the bosses like a puzzle. Its fine when the dungeon item exposes his weakness but there needs to be some danger and unpredictability atleast for the boss fight. I couldnt agree with you more on designing new items. The Boomerang, Bombs, Hookshot, Boots, Mirror shield and Arrows are pretty much a given. Thats 6 dungeon items which one expects. Wheres the sense of wonder of getting a new item?
So yeah barring randomization for single player I would be happy with the other changes.
Predictions:
[3DS] Nintendo 3DS Hardware (Nintendo) - 400000
[3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Shine/Dark (Level 5) - 200000
[PS3] PlayStation 3 Hardware (SCE) - 100000
[PS3] Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Square Enix) - 700000
[PSV] Playstation Vita Hardware (SCE) - 350000
[PSV] Minna no Golf 6 (Hot Shots Golf) (SCE) - 100000
[PSV] Uncharted: Golden Abyss (SCE) - 50000
[PSV] Dynasty Warriors Next (Koei Tecmo) - 60000
[3DS] Nintendo 3DS Hardware (Nintendo) - 400000
[3DS] Inazuma Eleven Go: Shine/Dark (Level 5) - 200000
[PS3] PlayStation 3 Hardware (SCE) - 100000
[PS3] Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Square Enix) - 700000
[PSV] Playstation Vita Hardware (SCE) - 350000
[PSV] Minna no Golf 6 (Hot Shots Golf) (SCE) - 100000
[PSV] Uncharted: Golden Abyss (SCE) - 50000
[PSV] Dynasty Warriors Next (Koei Tecmo) - 60000
frankie_baby
Member
well as things currently stand there arent 3 friends with a vita, in fact there arent any at all, capcom is banking on the 3ds userbase being larger than the vita (which it undoubtably will be) so there'll be yet more friends to play monster hunter with
test_account
XP-39C²
In 10 days there will be 3 friends with a Vita
But i just mean that i'm sure there are groups of friends around in Japan that will only have a Vita, or have it as their prefered handheld system. Having the game on both platforms is a good way to expand rather than being hindered by something. I dont think that the coordination stuff is a big problem, it hasnt been that with the PS3 and Xbox 360 as far as i know.This isnt really an arguement that MH should come to the Vita by the way. I'm just saying that i think it can do the serie good regarding sales to go multiplatform.
Sorry, of course. I took it for granted that Zelda would still always exist. It just sounded as if you wanted a new IP rather than a new zelda.
frankie_baby
Member
In 10 days there will be 3 friends with a Vita
dont be silly, only 2 will be sold
I've said this since the beginning - MH going multiplatform and splitting the userbase would be a very bad idea. Capcom has decided to move the series to the 3DS, so they will most likely stick with it, otherwise it will ruin the biggest selling point of the series: local multiplayer.
In other words, I highly doubt MH will come out for the Vita. To me I believe it's a done deal.
In other words, I highly doubt MH will come out for the Vita. To me I believe it's a done deal.
Generally, when people say Zelda's not an RPG, they point out that there's no character progression in it. The question I'd have is: If you took a bog-standard Zelda title (let's just grab Skyward Sword directly) and just bolted on experience and getting stronger each time you went up a level - would that actually be a better experience? A more interesting one?
If that's not the case... what could Zelda *gain* by going full ARPG?
test_account
XP-39C²
3 will buy it, but the problem is that they arent friends hehe.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
I would be all for a The New Legend of Zelda. They should do New Metroid too.
What's the "real" problem with zelda and why doesn't it sell?
Yeah, the series could use some shake ups or changes but I don't think that's why it has middling sales.
This might sounds silly to some, but I think it's a combination of a lack of higher end graphics and marketability. To be more specific, I think the fact that it's a core adventure game without visual panache that makes the game difficult to market towards its target audience.
With franchises like mario or DK, the target audience cares less about visuals and more about gameplay and accessability. Yeah, those games also look great, but their visual style makes them very easy to market.
With zelda it's a bit different. I think TP had much more hype around it not simply because it had a more "realistic" art style but also because it came out earlier this gen. People were more than willing to game in SD. But now? The majority of core gamers that might be interested in a game like zelda aren't as readily hooked when they see it...and I don't think that has to do with its art style. While I think SS looks great, it's more of a visually pleasing game rather than visually impressive. That's what makes it so difficult to properly market the title and to drum up hype outside of the dedicated fanbase. A lot of people have played SS and gone "wow, great game," but I think very few people have seen commercials or adverts and thought "wow, looks amazing, I want to play that." Compare that to something like Skyrim where it's much more common for the average gamer to see adverts and think "big ass dragons? FUCK YEAH!"
Yeah, the series could use some shake ups or changes but I don't think that's why it has middling sales.
This might sounds silly to some, but I think it's a combination of a lack of higher end graphics and marketability. To be more specific, I think the fact that it's a core adventure game without visual panache that makes the game difficult to market towards its target audience.
With franchises like mario or DK, the target audience cares less about visuals and more about gameplay and accessability. Yeah, those games also look great, but their visual style makes them very easy to market.
With zelda it's a bit different. I think TP had much more hype around it not simply because it had a more "realistic" art style but also because it came out earlier this gen. People were more than willing to game in SD. But now? The majority of core gamers that might be interested in a game like zelda aren't as readily hooked when they see it...and I don't think that has to do with its art style. While I think SS looks great, it's more of a visually pleasing game rather than visually impressive. That's what makes it so difficult to properly market the title and to drum up hype outside of the dedicated fanbase. A lot of people have played SS and gone "wow, great game," but I think very few people have seen commercials or adverts and thought "wow, looks amazing, I want to play that." Compare that to something like Skyrim where it's much more common for the average gamer to see adverts and think "big ass dragons? FUCK YEAH!"
This isn't really true though. We're in a Media Create thread talking about poor Zelda sales in Japan. Twilight Princess performed just as poorly as Skyward Sword. There wasn't really much "hype" around it at all. Phantom Hourglass ended up selling about twice what Twilight Princess did, so it's definitely not a "graphics" thing.
frankie_baby
Member
I wouldn't say twilight princess sold poorly, it still shifted over half a million
A 3-4 year development cycle on a major title in a million selling Nintendo franchise being outsold by Tales games isn't selling poorly? You have funny definitions.
Well I'm more talking about worldwide sales than anything else. In japan the reasons are more obvious. Zelda is mildly popular but I don't believe it's ever been a sensational hit. Portables are also much more popular there than consoles.
While Zelda has never been as popular as Mario, both Famicom Zeldas sold 1.6 million copies, and LttP and OoT both sold over a million copies. There has been a significant decline since then, and there's definitely more that Nintendo can do to try and address this and make the series more appealing to a larger audience once more.
Sony also once used to be the marketleader. But we don´t live in the past anymore.
azalyn was 150k off with initial shipment estimate, sinobi was correct.
Maybe there is a possibilitty for an immediate second shipment for MH3G if the demand is there but how big is unknown.
I don't see what you're trying to say. 3D Mario games also encountered a huge drop in popularity in the same generations where Zelda started to see a decline sales. That doesn't mean that Nintendo sat back and went "Oh well, times have changed, and there's nothing we can do about it. This is about what we can expect from Mario in the Japanese market now."
Instead they realized that while Mario was still very popular overseas, especially in America where Galaxy sold really well, the series was in danger in Japan. Their solution to fight this decline was to come up with NSMB on the DS, and then eventually make a Wii version as well. The plan paid off, and it sold way beyond what anyone expected. It showed that the huge multi-million audience for Mario that existed in the FC and SFC eras STILL exists in Japan. They just had to be tapped in a different way.
Why would anyone argue that Zelda is any different. If Nintendo can find a way to make a Zelda game sell 1.5-2 million in Japan again, it would be a huge success, and something that was totally worth investing research and development into.
If you use NSMB as an example. What did Nintendo right with both NSMB DS and NSMB Wii? They concentrated their efforts on aspects that made the originals popular, released those games at the peak of the systems in questions popularity and success (NDS and Wii) and with a huge marketing campaign.
In other words the exact opposite of what some fans in this thread are looking for, who want the series to change dramatically.
In other words the exact opposite of what some fans in this thread are looking for, who want the series to change dramatically.
Are you even following the current discussion?
Haha, not even close, but my country is at far worse financial situation than yours thanks to the losers politicians we have.
Of course I am. What a silly question.
Your comments often suggest otherwise.
I think duckroll pretty much nailed how a 3DS Zelda should be. Strip it down to NES-level gameplay (with a few LTTP features) and add a lot of content.
There's obviously lots of social aspects they should copy from DQ IX (i.e. randomized dungeons you can trade with friends). Maybe even have a dungeon editor included so people could make them.
That'd be a pretty big hit. I think you could make that with smaller team fairly easily.
Of course people overseas would still want a OOT-style Zelda for 3DS, and you'd still have the issue of how to continue to tweak the 3D Zeldas to something better than Aonuma's vision of item-trading (Skyward Sword is a big step in the right direction).
There's obviously lots of social aspects they should copy from DQ IX (i.e. randomized dungeons you can trade with friends). Maybe even have a dungeon editor included so people could make them.
That'd be a pretty big hit. I think you could make that with smaller team fairly easily.
Of course people overseas would still want a OOT-style Zelda for 3DS, and you'd still have the issue of how to continue to tweak the 3D Zeldas to something better than Aonuma's vision of item-trading (Skyward Sword is a big step in the right direction).
What I'm worried about most for future console Zeldas is that once Nintendo moves on to HD visuals, the potential costs for realizing the vision of an epic 3D Zelda in HD is going to be pretty... significant. Out of all of Nintendo's franchises, Zelda is probably the one which will be hit the hardest by increasing development costs because of increased visual fidelity.
Hopefully they'll figure something out. I really wouldn't mind a lot radically different art style like Wind Waker if it helps bring a refreshing look to the series without requiring assets which could burn a huge hole in the development budget.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
What are the odds of the 3DS outselling the Vita during it's launch week?
I like to think duckroll's concept would work great for another LA style Zelda game: Set it in a seemingly familiar dream world with increasing inconsistencies as you proceed, only now you get to influence the unintrusive background story by choosing specific paths/unlocking specific items and dungeons. The dream framework would perfectly allow for such drastic changes in the landscape between playthroughs.
Please be true... Please be true...
Ooooh. That's more ambitious. I like it.
wat
I'm hoping not. Vita needs a good launch or all the recently silenced mobile phone gaming zealots will emerge from underneath their rocks to once again proclaim handheld gaming dead.
That's true, and I concede that there are things they can do to improve the franchise, but your recommendations feel like an appeal to make zelda more like skyrim. I don't think that's what the series needs to regain popularity in Japan or the rest of the world. I mean, wind waker sold considerably better than TP in Japan. Why was that? Personally, I think SS was an attempt to appeal more closely to Japanese tastes vs. western tastes. In my opinion, it hasn't succeeded due to a combination of Japanese gamers migrating to portables and the fact that the Wii has lost most of its momentum. Had it come out a few years earlier, it might have done much better.
Tell us how you really feel.
Skyrim? What are you talking about?
There are plenty of cool things to do with Zelda, I just don't think any of them will impact sales, unless it is painfully obvious from the advertising that it's not the same type of game.
Changing how dungeons work, changing item systems, the artstlye, the concept, adding a more indepth story, being "grittier" being "lighter"... I don't think any of those really matter. Oh sure, to us it will, but we're not the ones who need to be convinced to buy the game. Upgrade system? Return to hyrule type overworld? Return to Zelda 1 style "figure it out yourself"? Return to WW/SS overworld? More indepth combat? Not sure if those matter.
But at the very least, we've had 5 console Zelda's each with variations on the basic formula. I think it's safe to say that all the bases have been covered.
Changing how dungeons work, changing item systems, the artstlye, the concept, adding a more indepth story, being "grittier" being "lighter"... I don't think any of those really matter. Oh sure, to us it will, but we're not the ones who need to be convinced to buy the game. Upgrade system? Return to hyrule type overworld? Return to Zelda 1 style "figure it out yourself"? Return to WW/SS overworld? More indepth combat? Not sure if those matter.
But at the very least, we've had 5 console Zelda's each with variations on the basic formula. I think it's safe to say that all the bases have been covered.
Whoops, I misread the first part of your big post. My bad.
Still, I don't think dungeons are the problem with Zelda. I really don't like the idea of any kind of randomly generated dungeons, even if it's just the selection of quality dungeons that are randomized. Creating a large pool of possible dungeons leaves less time to really focus on making sure every dungeon is of the highest quality. Not to mention integrating story and pacing elements would be difficult.
I really like what SS did with it's pre-dungeon areas. I want them to expand on that. The way it's set up though it feels like you have hub town and then small tunneled paths that lead you to the next dungeon. I want those tunnels to be excavated and opened up to be continuous with the overworld, much like it is in ALTTP.
I don't particularly like randomization either. But my main point is that it is one method where I see a decent marriage between having a ton of content and not making the game feel overwhelming. 9 dungeons in total is a good pace for a single run through a Zelda game. That's what the first game had, and it should be retained. The story should be completely minimized and ignored, because that would also be going back to the roots of the original. If there are other ways to achieve the same aim, it would be preferable to randomization.
I'm not talking about replacing console Zeldas at all. In fact, I don't think they should take anything from recent console Zeldas into consideration when designing a New Legend of Zelda. The main focus should to be create a portable (at least initially) experience that recaptures the experience of the very first Legend of Zelda, while integrating some minor elements introduced in other popular 2D Zeldas, and creating it with the current technology, and with presentation and production values expected of a modern game, filled with content and variety.
Zoramon089
Banned
For some people it would be. But others? Notsomcuh.
frankie_baby
Member
Incredibly high
RE: New Legend of Zelda -- why do you think Nintendo has yet to resort to this? They obviously didn't have a problem doing it with Mario, so why have they been shy about doing it with Zelda? The series obviously needs a reboot of sorts, and taking it back to its roots -- gameplay-wise and graphics-wise, a la NSMBW -- could be one way of achieving that. It confuses me to no end...