Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
So it's okay to perpetuate ignorance because of tradition?
It's racism. Pure and simple, it may not be prejudice and it may not come from a place of hate, but racism is racism. Ignorance is not a defense.
Members of german carnival parade use redface to spew refugee hate
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It's racism. Pure and simple, it may not be prejudice and it may not come from a place of hate, but racism is racism. Ignorance is not a defense.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
I grew up in munich and big cities are more diverse than the more rural areas in germany. We always had enough black kids in my Kindergarten who wanted to play the part.
But usually it looks something like this:
Mardi Gras does have a similar tradition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras
Though I'm surprised coloring one's face really doesn't seem to be a thing at all at Mardi Gras while it's usually a big part of the "more advanced" costumes at the German carnival:
No, no, no...no, no...no. Conceptually, you have it all backwards. Context isn't some golden ticket that entitles you to a free pass. You are knowledge deficient. If you're employed, consider your job for a moment. If you don't have the knowledge, you don't just make it up as you go and hope for the best, do you?
C'mon guys...
Oh I thought you were talking about Americans doing this. And I was really confused. What's the name of this tradition?
Nobody said this, the german gaffers just told that there is just not that much awareness about what blackfacing means.
Some people just do this without a bad thought, because they dont know better or have that much exposure to black people to see the problem. Doesnt makes it much better, but its not "because culture".
Usually one is a white one with black face.
What country is this? I would call it wrong and there shouldn't be any need to use blackface.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Heilige drei Könige.
Christian churchgoers are walking around houses getting money for poor people (usually african countries).
Germany. Usually, since I also did it when I was a child, children dont actually like to wear black paint on their faces, because its itchy.
Ok, let's walk through this definition of racism.
Step 1
Seems like some people believe that all members of the black race have dark skin.
Step 2
When wearing blackface in this particular German tradition, no statement of superiority or inferiority is made or implied.
Verdict
I'll go with half racist.
I'll weigh in. I was first introduced to the existence of blackface on GAF, so I'm not coming from a place where it is tradition or anything. (side not, tradition is a bad excuse, anything can be tradition)
If you don't see something wrong with blackface, start doing so. You don't need to come to this thread to ask why, and constantly refute the idea that it has negative connotations, you have the internet for that.
And you know what? I'm not really convinced there is a difference between blackface in the US, and blackface at these carnivals. The difference in culture is that if a black person speaks up about it, he is told "it's culture here, get over it."
If you don't see something wrong with blackface, start doing so. You don't need to come to this thread to ask why, and constantly refute the idea that it has negative connotations, you have the internet for that.
And you know what? I'm not really convinced there is a difference between blackface in the US, and blackface at these carnivals. The difference in culture is that if a black person speaks up about it, he is told "it's culture here, get over it."
It's not ignorance or racism unless you do it in America.
Racism is believing in inferiority of different races than ones own. That is not what's happening here at all.
In fact it's the exact opposite of racism: It's teaching kids there is nothing weird, strange or inferior about having skin colours other than white. These kids LOVE looking that way. It promotes inclusion. Zwarte Piet, For that matter, is also seen as a cool, athletic and funny guy who brings joy. Also fun fact: majority of black people here have no problem with that. In fact on Curaçao, where people of colour are the majority, it's still celebrated exactly the same.
It's really sad that you and many others will probably never understand this and will continue to wage war against these kind of "bridges" between races, teaching kids inclusion and equality.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I just wonder why somehow in this thread the blackface issue is blown up that much, when you see such fucking and really racist shitty carnival cars. Compared to people dressing up as their favorite childrens show....
It isn't just deemed racist in America.
I find the notion that intent doesn't matter pretty weird to be honest. If someone offends me, of course it matters to me whether he or she did so intentionally or not.
Pizza con salsiccia
Banned
A wise post and a clear explanation.
Thanks to you.
Question though: in which country do you live?
Yeah that's thing but as a tradition where Americans go out and openly wear blackface is non-existant. I'm going to say our media like TV, movies, schools do not do this. I kinda think don't think you know what your talking about with this link.
I would so watch this.
what? Im not talking about anything. i just give context becasue someone asked what these kids a dressing up as. And the link is what they are dressing up as.
Dont know what you want from me here.
they are called Caspar, Melchior and Balthasar.
I meant isn't .
Actually, very few countries are as willing to talk so much about their past crimes as germany, the focus is mostly on World War II but don't pretend germany didn't learn from its history.
How many american schools drill crimes committed by the american government, military and people into their students heads for example? "We committed horrible crimes and it must never happen again" is an attitude MANY germans have.
The problem isn't that germans and europeans generally are racially insensitive, it's that sensitivities are in fact different and vary from country to country.
For many europeans using blackface can be as harmless as putting on a wig, "character x has long red hair, so I have to wear a wig, character y has black skin, so I have to paint my skin", it's a very simple thought process with no malicious intent.
If that offends you talk to them, explain why it offends you but also understand that the person you're talking too did not mean to hurt you. Do not scream "THAT'S RACIST AND YOU SHOULD KNOW WHY!" because even if it seems unbelievable to americans many europeans actually don't know and if you explain it to them expect them to defend their position and accept that they're not going to change immediately, the important thing is to start a dialog.
However, many europeans know exactly what they're doing and use blackface maliciously, those people are without a doubt racist assholes and their behavior is inexcusable.
Context always matters in my opinion.
A 12 year old in a B.A. Baracus costume with blackface? Not something I'd give the kid shit for it, focus on the fact that he likes a black character (which is a good start) and explain the issue with the costume calmly.
A group of soccer fans in blackface, making monkey sounds and throwing bananas (something that actually happened)? Fuck them sideways.
Hahahahahahahahhaa
Chairmanchuck
Member
? What does that mean?
You responded to my comment about my confusion to whenther the poster's I responded to was talking about a American Tradition. I assume your link was in response to the notion that is also a American Tradition. As in America we also have the 3 wiseman but I've never anyone dressed up in Blackface.
If you were talking about a the european tradition, my bad. Another poster linked me to a wiki page about it.
CaptainBanana
Neo Member
That is insane. This whole discussion has gotten so out of hand it's not even remotely funny anymore, but this... At this point you're just being offended for the sake of being offended. If anything, this is a show of inclusion, of different people and ethnicities coming together to celebrate the birth of Jesus (in this special case). As a german, I really, honestly, do not understand how you could take it as anything other than that.
Also, a lot of people on really high horses here...
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Yes it has. Going by the Wikipedia definition of racism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
Kids having a good time doesn't fall under these points.
As someone mentioned before, there are multiple example of different standards in different cultures.
Things that might be offensive in the US might not be offensive elsewhere and vice versa.
Even usuing the term "race"(Rasse) in connection with humans is not acceptable in germany.
In the US its no problem.
But no german would go ahead and say americans who are usuing the term race when they refer to different ethnicity are per se racist.
In germany when you speak of race you're are quickly called a nazi.
The term just has a lot of history in germany, just like blackfacing has a history in the US.
But in the US the only history the term has is as a synonym for ethnicity, and the only history blackfacing has in germany and the netherlands are some weird christian tranditions or dressing up as famous cartoon characters.*
*I don't know if Jim Knopf is known outside of germany. But the depiction is highly questionable, yet he is a hero for many kids and they want to dress up like him.(At least back in my days.)
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
You seem to be defending this from a place of moral relativism. This is incorrect. Morality is universal. What's racist is racist, universally. As much as it doesn't come from a place of malice, it is still racist. It's paternalistic racism. It's willful ignorance. It's a hill that too many here seem to be willing to die on.
sankt-Antonio
Banned
The people who stepped over the line are being prosecuted for hate speech (Volksverhetzung).
Silver Arrows
Banned
Apparently not wanting black people to be mocked with something that has massive racial connotations = 'being on a high horse'
Let me guess, we're the real racists for pointing it out, right?
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Using the term "race" in connection with humans is deemed racist in germany.
Would you say thats universal? Because if thats universal basically everyone in the US is using this racist term regularly in the US.
But not for blackfacing or redfacing but for implying that they want to shoot refugees with a tank.
What? I don't think there's a universal agreed-upon notion of what is racist. For example, being asked for your race in a census would be considered pretty offensive in Germany.
If you want inclusion then use a child whis is black instead of a child who is white with a black face. In the UK we still have people that call blackface a tradition but that is slowly being fazed out which I am happy about.
if that is true.... I find that fascinating... That would lead to some crazy compounding impact on society over time.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
That's a direct result of the Nazis. What is the preferred German term for what the English speaking world calls race and what is its translation into English?
You are both trying to setup strawmen here.
This objectively has nothing do with showings of superiority or inferiority of race (which is what racism is all about). It does not fit the definition of racism.
I once dreamed a dream...
Thelonelykoopa
Member
What the fuck Germany don't bring us into justification for your racism.
Chairmanchuck
Member
I guess its harder to find a black child in Germany than it is in the UK. I dont really need Balthasar (I guess that was the black king) to be black face and the children, like I said, dont like to have their face painted black because the paint stings after a while.
The children are usually collecting donations for about 4-5 hours or longer outside when its cold in January.
No one is justifying anything, but explaining why some German dont understand the blackface issue as much as Americans do. And like I wrote here before. Its actually quite sad to see that most of the thread is focusing on blackface while ignoring the real fucking racist carnival cars...
"Using" a black child for such a purpose sounds...pretty sketchy to me.
It's a natural consequence of that word's significance in recent German history. When your country industrially murdered millions of people based on pseudo-scientific concepts of race and racial purity, the word and the very concept of race become massively toxic. If I am correct, contemporary anthropology in general discourages the use of the word as well as.
SolidusDave
Member
Painting your face in any color to portray a person of the respective race is simply not seen as racist in Germany and other countries. There is no cultural background and it's not done with any sinister intention. It's really much more simple, trying to visually recreate what you want to present.
This includes anyone living there, i.e. the portrayed minorities themselves (as they would be equally less exposed to US culture).
I'm actually not against globally raising awareness about cultural insensitivity but I also see this practically: The only people offended and seeing ill intent are US (and UK?) citizens watching photos from a German parade on the Internet.
Wouldn't you agree that it would be super weird for e.g. a German to demand US comedy to stop making jokes about Jews because it's extremely offensive?
Anyway, over time and increased exposure from various countries things change naturally and when made aware also Germans try not to offend people who might visit/move there etc. These changes are so trivial that no one really will fight for the use of black face or against re-naming some of our food items (e.g. "Mohrenköpfe", Moor heads).
But as I said, due to the missing ill intent people will look at you weirdly if you try and call them out for racism.
(Disclaimer: I separated this issue from the political messages about immigration as that's a different topic)
This includes anyone living there, i.e. the portrayed minorities themselves (as they would be equally less exposed to US culture).
I'm actually not against globally raising awareness about cultural insensitivity but I also see this practically: The only people offended and seeing ill intent are US (and UK?) citizens watching photos from a German parade on the Internet.
Wouldn't you agree that it would be super weird for e.g. a German to demand US comedy to stop making jokes about Jews because it's extremely offensive?
Anyway, over time and increased exposure from various countries things change naturally and when made aware also Germans try not to offend people who might visit/move there etc. These changes are so trivial that no one really will fight for the use of black face or against re-naming some of our food items (e.g. "Mohrenköpfe", Moor heads).
But as I said, due to the missing ill intent people will look at you weirdly if you try and call them out for racism.
(Disclaimer: I separated this issue from the political messages about immigration as that's a different topic)
More Fun To Compute
Member
Blackface almost seems like a worse historical episode than genocide. The way that Americans glamorise and celebrate the history of their nation is much more offensive than blackface. That was just an insensitive cabaret act not stealing land, violence and horrific mass displacement.
CaptainBanana
Neo Member
I do get the fact that "blackface" has massive negative connotation in the US. However, the point you don't seem to get, is that it's not meant as mockery in this special tradition of "Heilige Drei Könige" (Three holy kings being the word for word translation).
The "people on high horses" was meant towards the people jumping to conclusions about germany and it's population and traditions (Karneval being only really prominent in the most western parts of it) by some very poor floats. It's like jumping to conclusions about the US after seeing a KKK march.
Fair enough point. And it's being done. But just deeming the whole thing racist seems way out of proportion to me for something that is in no way meant to be mocking or offensive or whatever.
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