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[Irminsul]

What is the preferred German term for what the English speaking world calls race and what is its translation into English?

You are both trying to setup strawmen here.

Nothing, because that arbitrary and anthropologically wrong notion of “race” isn't really used. There's “ethnicity”, but that is obviously something different. And “race” in the US still has the one-drop rule, doesn't it? Now that's racist.

It's also very funny you think you get to decide what a strawman is despite having no clue at all.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

The "people on high horses" was meant towards the people jumping to conclusions about germany and it's population and traditions (Karneval being only really prominent in the most western parts of it) by some very poor floats. It's like jumping to conclusions about the US after seeing a KKK march.

Or a Donald Trump rally.

 

[Beefy]

"Using" a black child for such a purpose sounds...pretty sketchy to me.

It's your tradition of having one black child in the 3. In the UK it doesn't matter who the wise men are.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

if that is true.... I find that fascinating... That would lead to some crazy compounding impact on society over time.

Well, "race" is a pretty specific term in biology and as a matter of fact isn't suited to describe different types of humans. So scientifically its bullshit to speak of different races when speaking of humans.
The nazis talked a lot about "Rassetheory" (Race theory) a racist pseudoscience categorizing humans on the basis of a few phenotypical traits and then judging their abilities by the findings.
So instead of beeing just a wrongly used term like in english, in german there is always this connotation of the racist "Rassetheory" of the nazis.

That's a direct result of the Nazis.

Sure, history had an impact on that term in germany.
Just like history had an impact on painting ones face black or red in the US.
But this history is unique to these countries and therefore the conclusions we draw from this history might not apply to other countries.

What is the preferred German term for what the English speaking world calls race and what is its translation into English?
.

See above.
We don't have an alternative term for race. We just say "people from xy" when we want to refer to certain groups of people.

You are both trying to setup strawmen here.

I don't see why this would be a stawman.

It's a natural consequence of that word's significance in recent German history. When your country industrially murdered millions of people based on pseudo-scientific concepts of race and racial purity, the word and the very concept of race become massively toxic. If I am correct, contemporary anthropology in general discourages the use of the word as well as.

In biology its only used for some bakteria, certain kinds of crops and some insects.

Colloquially its also used for different dog breeds but from a scientific perspective thats not right either.

Internationally the term is still used though, even in science and even though its a vague term.
"Nach Forschungen zur Genetik menschlicher Populationen ist das Konzept der Menschenrasse wissenschaftlich überholt, Anthropologen und Humangenetiker vor allem in den USA verwenden ihn aber zum Teil weiter (vgl. Artikel Race (United States Census)). "
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasse

 

[Volimar]

I did kind of like this one:

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Nothing, because that arbitrary notion of “race” isn't really used. There's “ethnicity”, but that is obviously something different. And “race” in the US still has the one-drop rule, doesn't it? Now that's racist.

It's also very funny you think you get to decide what a strawman is despite having no clue at all.

In the English language race and ethnicity and generally interchangeable. Nothing is codified when it comes to race except for American Indians when it comes to government reparations. If your great grandfather was black but you look white it is completely up to you whether you check Black or White on the census. Or none at all, it is left entirely up to the individual to denote their race if they so desire.

Germany took denazification and snowballed it into something so insane that blackface isn't considered racist while the discussion of race and (apparently based on this thread) how certain traditions are racist is somehow racist.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

That's a direct result of the Nazis. What is the preferred German term for what the English speaking world calls race and what is its translation into English?

You are both trying to setup strawmen here.

Ethnicity. Race is a term only used for animals.

 

[Devil's advocate]

It's your tradition of having one black child in the 3. In the UK it doesn't matter who the wise men are.

So "whitewashing" is the solution? You are taking a character who has been described as black for hundreds of years and have him represented by a white kid. Isn't that more racist?

 

[cyba89]

Germany took denazification and snowballed it into something so insane that blackface isn't considered racist while the discussion of race and (apparently based on this thread) how certain traditions are racist is somehow racist.

Or maybe it's just the result of different cultures/different history and not some case of "The Germans are insane!"

 

[Makonero]

So "whitewashing" is the solution? You are taking a character who has been described as black for hundreds of years and have him represented by a white kid. Isn't that more racist?

It isn't biblical that the wise men are two white dudes and a black dude, sorry.

They were actually most likely Zoroastrians and therefore middle eastern.

 

[Irminsul]

In the English language race and ethnicity and generally interchangeable.

That doesn't make sense, really. Especially because most of the “races” are only applicable in an American context. For example, what would “Hispanic” mean in a European context? Or better yet: what “race” is a Spaniard? It has no real usage. Ethnicity is something pretty different.

 

[Principate]

Yes it has. Going by the Wikipedia definition of racism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Kids having a good time doesn't fall under these points.


As someone mentioned before, there are multiple example of different standards in different cultures.
Things that might be offensive in the US might not be offensive elsewhere and vice versa.
Even usuing the term "race"(Rasse) in connection with humans is not acceptable in germany.
In the US its no problem.
But no german would go ahead and say americans who are usuing the term race when they refer to different ethnicity are per se racist.
In germany when you speak of race you're are quickly called a nazi.
The term just has a lot of history in germany, just like blackfacing has a history in the US.
But in the US the only history the term has is as a synonym for ethnicity, and the only history blackfacing has in germany and the netherlands are some weird christian tranditions or dressing up as famous cartoon characters.*

*I don't know if Jim Knopf is known outside of germany. But the depiction is highly questionable, yet he is a hero for many kids and they want to dress up like him.(At least back in my days.)

Wikipedia definition, hahahaha use a damn dictionary man it's not difficult. Wikipedia is not a reputable source in itself. Namely because anyone can change it.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Edit: misunderstood argument

 

[Izuna]

Edit: misunderstood argument

No I agree with you though.

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

 

[sankt-Antonio]

No I agree with you though.

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

I have been to school/university for 20 years and never had a black guy in my class and thats in Munich. So i figure its not always that easy to just get a black kid to do it.

 

[Beefy]

So "whitewashing" is the solution? You are taking a character who has been described as black for hundreds of years and have him represented by a white kid. Isn't that more racist?

If there are no black children able to play a wise man then why not? It's better then painting a white childs face black.

Edit: who said anything about whitewashing? Why couldn't one of the wise men be asian etc? If there are no black children.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Wikipedia definition, hahahaha use a damn dictionary man it's not difficult. Wikipedia is not a reputable source in itself. Namely because anyone can change it.

Same fucking thing:

Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

You need a specific cultural context to allege "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism" or the believe of superiority.
In germany this cultural context just doesn't exist so I have a hard time calling these people racists.
You can call it stupid and insensitive, but racist?

 

[Oersted]

snip

Racism and sexism do not need intent.

Learning from the past would include more than ackknowledgement of selected crimes, esp when jews had to fight to get them ackknowledged. The doctrin of the first chancellor was let the past be the past and forget about it.

 

[Devil's advocate]

It isn't biblical that the wise men are two white dudes and a black dude, sorry.

They were actually most likely Zoroastrians and therefore middle eastern.

Yeah I did a quick wiki check to see if there was always 2 white and 1 black king and saw that it's not in the bible.

I still find it weird that having 3 white kids is somehow the least racist way of doing it. I always saw the 3 kings as a representation of all mankind so they have to be of different ethnicity. And with the lack of black kids in germany there is little choice but using face paint.

Ps: And yes ideally there should also be an asian king, but then we have the same problem with "yellow face"...

 

[NoblesseOblige]

No I agree with you though.

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

I agree, that should always be the first choice. I think the person I was quoting was discussing a scenario when only white candidates existed. So I don't know if it'd be whitewashing. Whitewashing to me is picking a white person to represent a non-white character when there is qualified black candidates. But in that scenario you shouldn't employ blackface to make up for the lack of diversity.

 

[ElTorro]

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

When I grew up there wasn't a single black kid in my entire school which was attended by over 1000 kids. That's how most German schools look(ed) like, especially outside the ten largest cities. As others have said, Germany does not really capture a person's race during its census, which is why the specific numbers on Germany's black population that I could find fluctuate heavily between 300k and 800k people. In any case, this population has only started to grow over the last two decades or so.

 

[Beefy]

I agree, that should always be the first choice. I think the person I was quoting was discussing a scenario when only white candidates existed. So I don't know if it'd be whitewashing. Whitewashing to me is picking a white person to represent a non-white character when there is qualified black candidates. But in that scenario you shouldn't employ blackface to make up for the lack of diversity.

That's my take on it as well.

 

[His Majesty]

I agree, that should always be the first choice. I think the person I was quoting was discussing a scenario when only white candidates existed. So I don't know if it'd be whitewashing. Whitewashing to me is picking a white person to represent a non-white character when there is qualified black candidates. But in that scenario you shouldn't employ blackface to make up for the lack of diversity.

It's a kids holiday. 'Candidates' aren't picked based on skin colour but on the level of friendship. At least that's how we did it. I always went to sing from door to door with my two best friends who happened to be white.

 

[Izuna]

I agree, that should always be the first choice. I think the person I was quoting was discussing a scenario when only white candidates existed. So I don't know if it'd be whitewashing. Whitewashing to me is picking a white person to represent a non-white character when there is qualified black candidates. But in that scenario you shouldn't employ blackface to make up for the lack of diversity.

I fully understand that this is how we have this situation in the first place. You have a whole neighbourhood that wants to be inclusive, so they black up some people and argue that skin colour doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it's still the same kid that is doing it, and his skin colour doesn't change who he is.

I get that. But I don't think they put much effort into finding black kids for this role. Besides, with the internet and such, people should get the message that it isn't appreciated by the very people that are supposed to be included. So it's like, |"cut it out", you know?

 

[Principate]

Same fucking thing:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

You need a specific cultural context to allege "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism" or the believe of superiority.
In germany this cultural context just doesn't exist so I have a hard time calling these people racists.
You can call it stupid and insensitive, but racist?

Hahaahahahaha do you actually just do that, I mean really do you actually just do that? There's another definition right there which you pursposefully ignored, which is equally valid because that how dictionaries work. You don't get to ignore definitions just because it doesn't fit your agenda. There's a reason why there's mutiple non-contradicting definitions in a dictioary.

Did they not teach you this school?

Here I'll post it up for you.

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism"

Note the especially, you just mentioned one part of it.

 

[Pandy]

Why should fancy-dress make-up of a particular colour be excluded just because it has been used by racists in the past/present?

I'm a white guy in the UK, and I would quickly report someone who dressed as a 'Golliwog' or someone who put on blackface and started making 'monkey' noises or something equally repellant, but I find the idea that dressing up as a person of another race in a positive manner is somehow intrinsically 'wrong' to be ridiculous.

Context is key.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Judging by the refugee threads around here, i bet some gaffers are silently clapping at the brave actions of these 'heroes'.

No doubt.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

That's my take on it as well.

Even if there is a black kid available, its still up to the kids, who gets play who.

Over the last two years I had a group of kids at my door where a black kid played one of the white kings and a white kid played the black king. (so effectively two black kings because the black kid didn't paint its face white).
When I asked why they did it that way he told me something about only one king having a sword and he wanted to be the one with the sword.

 

[Toxi]

Say what you want about USA but you don't see this kinda shit here.

We have a football team called the Redskins dude.

 

[Captin Quacker]

ITT:blackface is a way to Include black people without actually including them

 

[Izuna]

Why should fancy-dress make-up of a particular colour be excluded just because it has been used by racists in the past/present?

I'm a white guy in the UK, and I would quickly report someone who dressed as a 'Golliwog' or someone who put on blackface and started making 'monkey' noises or something equally repellant, but I find the idea that dressing up as a person of another race in a positive manner is somehow intrinsically 'wrong' to be ridiculous.

Context is key.

Try to walk outside with blackface on. Go on.

I can't wait to hear about you on local news.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Hahaahahahaha do you actually just do that, I mean really do you actually just do that? There's another definition right there which you pursposefully ignored, which is equally valid because that how dictionaries work. You don't get to ignore definitions just because it doesn't fit your agenda. There's a reason why there's mutiple non-contradicting definitions in a dictioary.

Did they not teach you this school?

The other definition focusses only on the idea of superiority, based on distinguishing characteristics.
The first definition contained that and more.

 

[SolidusDave]

No I agree with you though.

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

Practical reasons. There are few black people in Germany and you have these dressed up kids in every village etc.

The thought would not cross someones mind either way, the black king is seen as equal to the other two so it doesn't matter who plays him.
I guess they could start distinguishing them only by their gifts but actually from a certain perspective it's kinda neat to show that the three are from different cultures/ ethnicity yet all the same/united by the same goal. Maybe one could use different clothes?

edit: late

 

[Principate]

The other definition focusses only on the idea of superiority, based on distinguishing characteristics.
The first definition contained that and more.

No the other definitions are more encompassing I'll post it again.

The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: theories of racism

The superiority or inferiority are born from that, but that's not the only form of racism.

 

[Zaru]

Hahaahahahaha do you actually just do that, I mean really do you actually just do that? There's another definition right there which you pursposefully ignored, which is equally valid because that how dictionaries work. You don't get to ignore definitions just because it doesn't fit your agenda. There's a reason why there's mutiple non-contradicting definitions in a dictioary.

Did they not teach you this school?

But when you ignore the other definition, it's alright? Please be less obvious.

But I don't think they put much effort into finding black kids for this role.

Is it really that hard to understand the ethnic composition of central Europe

There are vast swathes of land where non-European minorities simply don't live in notable numbers or even AT ALL. Those usually live in particular cities. You can grow up in those countless rural towns without ever seeing a black person in real life.
What are they gonna do, redistribute urban black kids to rural towns?

 

[Captin Quacker]

We have a football team called the Redskins dude.

And have Native Americans call them out on it, just for them to double down on it with the same excuses used in this thread

 

[Beefy]

Try to walk outside with blackface on. Go on.

I can't wait to hear about you on local news.

Yep he/she would get called out with in minutes.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

No the other definitions are more encompassing I'll post it again.

Thats the definition I refered too.

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:"
Believe of superiority based on specific charcteristics abilities or qualities.

The believe of superiority is not present. So whats left are the charcteristics, abilities and qualities. The only characteristic thats displayed is black skin.

If thats enough for you to call it racist, this means everyone who acknowledges different skin colors is a racist.

 

[chadskin]

No I agree with you though.

If they REALLY want to portray this wise man as black, why not get a black kid to do it?

Since the German census doesn't register people by skin color, there are no solid numbers on the black population in Germany but estimate put them at about 800K, or roughly 1% of the country's total population, similar in percentage to Maine, Idaho, the Dakotas or New Hampshire (via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_African-American_population).

Anecdotally, at my high school of 1,300 ten years ago, we had only two black kids. One was from Cuba and the other I didn't personally know.

 

[Principate]

But when you ignore the other definition, it's alright? Please be less obvious.



Is it really that hard to understand the ethnic composition of central Europe

There are vast swathes of land where non-European minorities simply don't live in notable numbers or even AT ALL. Those usually live in particular cities. You can grow up in those countless rural towns without ever seeing a black person in real life.
What are they gonna do, redistribute urban black kids to rural towns?

I'm not ignoring the other definitions because the other definition are not contradictory, and makes up a part of it. Because that's the reason why there's multiple definitions in a dictionary, did you never actually bother to wonder why that is.

 

[Izuna]

Is it really that hard to understand the ethnic composition of central Europe

Hey when I went to school in North England, I was the only black kid (I'm mixed).

I'm not saying it isn't hard to find a black person in certain areas, I'm saying that I doubt there is any effort at all in finding someone for the role. And I don't think there should be even. But the effort instead going into blacking up a kid's face is not good.

Worse of all, that kid is going to think it's perfectly okay as he grows up and Europe becomes more diverse.

It should be seen as an issue so it can be corrected, not ignored.

 

[spekkeh]

I think blackface is racist everywhere because even at its most benign it creates an otherness out of the skin colour. But I also think there's merit in the argument that the severity of how we experience such crassness changes with the background of the country. Creating otherness based on skin color has been a bigger problem quantitywise in the US than in Europe (though you wouldn't say it with the current zeitgeist in Europe) and so people are rightfully extremely sensitive about it. Conversely I thought 'PC master race' by ElTorro was a good example. In the US that would be perceived from anywhere between normal to edgy to at worst kind of cringe worthy. If you lived under fascism and had half your family shipped to extermination camps, that term would have a very different connotation.

Disclaimer: not saying blackface is okay, as I said I consider it racist everywhere.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

It's a kids holiday. 'Candidates' aren't picked based on skin colour but on the level of friendship. At least that's how we did it. I always went to sing from door to door with my two best friends who happened to be white.

I was speaking for pageants and performances which is why I edit my initial response as I misunderstood the context.

I fully understand that this is how we have this situation in the first place. You have a whole neighbourhood that wants to be inclusive, so they black up some people and argue that skin colour doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it's still the same kid that is doing it, and his skin colour doesn't change who he is.

I get that. But I don't think they put much effort into finding black kids for this role. Besides, with the internet and such, people should get the message that it isn't appreciated by the very people that are supposed to be included. So it's like, |"cut it out", you know?

I don't know if we're agreeing or disagreeing. I'm just saying to never do blackface. There's never any need, even when diversity isn't an option for whatever case.

 

[Principate]

Thats the definition I refered too.

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:"
Believe of superiority based on specific charcteristics abilities or qualities.

The believe of superiority is not present. So whats left are the charcteristics, abilities and qualities. The only characteristic thats displayed is black skin.

If thats enough for you to call it racist, this means everyone who acknowledges different skin colors is a racist.

If you believe all black people have have pitch black skin, and calling african people with lighter skin not black because they lack that characteristic, then it's pretty racist, same with big lips, and any characteristic you can think of because hint, your talking about over a billion people here. There will be variation.

 

[Gutek]

In the English language race and ethnicity and generally interchangeable. Nothing is codified when it comes to race except for American Indians when it comes to government reparations. If your great grandfather was black but you look white it is completely up to you whether you check Black or White on the census. Or none at all, it is left entirely up to the individual to denote their race if they so desire.

Germany took denazification and snowballed it into something so insane that blackface isn't considered racist while the discussion of race and (apparently based on this thread) how certain traditions are racist is somehow racist.

They are not. E.g. Race is white. Ethnicity is Germanic or Slavic.

 

[Izuna]

I don't know if we're agreeing or disagreeing. I'm just saying to never do blackface. There's never any need, even when diversity isn't an option for whatever case.

We're agreeing. I'm just adding.

--

I have to admit though, I did attempt to paint my face red so I could be like Red-Eye from Last Bronx.

But I was like, 5 - 6?

So I see why children or people who don't understand the racist connotations would think blackface is okay. It's just not, and the more people deny that is it a problem, the less likely that this will go away. Kids who grow up in areas that aren't mixed see skin colour as the biggest difference. It's up to responsible adults to teach them that it isn't.

EDIT: Holy shit I've been dressing in drag my whole life...

 

[CaptainBanana]

I'm not saying it isn't hard to find a black person in certain areas, I'm saying that I doubt there is any effort at all in finding someone for the role. And I don't think there should be even. But the effort instead going into blacking up a kid's face is not good.

They're not doing a citywide casting call for that. It's usually kids going around their neighbourhoods or blocks or even just their street.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

If you believe all black people have have pitch black skin, and calling african people with lighter skin not black because they lack that characteristic, then it's pretty racist, same with big lips, and any characteristic you can think of because hint, your talking about over a billion people here.

You're moving goalposts.
People are using whatever facepaint they have at hand. Sometimes they have brown faces, sometimes pitch black faces.
Its symbolical. It doesn't imply that every black person looks like that, just like the crown doesn't imply that every ancient king had a crown and coat like that.

 

[Zaru]

If you believe all black people have have pitch black skin, and calling african people with lighter skin not black because they lack that characteristic, then it's pretty racist, same with big lips, and any characteristic you can think of because hint, your talking about over a billion people here.

Painting someone's skin with a dark color to "represent" the non-Arabic parts of Africa is not the same as believing all people from there have that exact same skin color.
In this context, it's just an easy visual reference. We're talking about kids here.

It seems you can't understand this due to cultural differences, but if you've got a better idea on how to make one kid represent black people in a positive, kind-of-inclusive context, go ahead. Because the alternative is omitting their existence altogether.

 

[Irminsul]

So I see why children or people who don't understand the racist connotations would think blackface is okay. It's just not, and the more people deny that is it a problem, the less likely that this will go away. Kids who grow up in areas that aren't mixed see skin colour as the biggest difference. It's up to responsible adults to teach them that it isn't.

I don't think you can back up that claim.

I'm also not quite sure if I get the logic behind this. If skin colour is the biggest difference, but one that doesn't really matter, isn't that a good thing? I'm just not sure if not “seeing” blatantly obvious differences is so much better than seeing them but don't care for them. And yes, these are honest questions, but I don't know if it's just a matter of wording.