Members of german carnival parade use redface to spew refugee hate

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Okay, so congratulation, both places are ignorant. That's not exactly a new revelation. The decision you now have to make as an individual is are you okay pandering to that ignorance? Or are you better than that. Writing blackface off as tradition and treating it as being innocent means you are not. It means you are welcoming the ignorance.

Edit: The part that makes this some sort of meta-ignorant is that so many Europeans are quick to dismiss Muslim people for their traditions. Meanwhile defending their own insensitive traditions as if they were just.

I find it kind of hard that some parts of Europe can't see even a tradition can be wrong. In the UK we still have people that won't move on. Black face etc here in the UK isn't illegal but is looked down opon. You will get asked to wash it off etc if a police man sees you and you will probably end up in the press getting ripped apart. Like when Cameron posed with Morris dancers who blackfaced he was deemed a idiot and they were deemed stuck in the past racists.
 
Apparently it's not the only one that's being sued. Another one that pictures the refugees as locust also had charges filed against it.
http://m.mdr.de/thueringen/sued-thu...tzung-karneval-wasungen100.html#mobilredirect

But at least they didn't use racist imagery.

sj6j7X1.jpg
 
Curious, how do you feel about the usage of different skin tones as a style choice around the world when the historical context comes from something completely innocuous and not cultural appropriation?

For example, ganguro in Japan. From a western perspective, it may look like blackface, but its actually based off youkai in Japanese folklore, and it's purpose is a contrast to the value placed on fair skin in Japanese culture. There are no persecuted groups involved with the style's creation, unlike blackface.

I'm not sure what you are asking. I'm not an expert of Japanese culture so my knowledge of 'ganguro' is a porn game in the early 00s. However I know Japan has a terrible track record with its representation of black people, so I'm not going to be particularly surprised if ganguro is equally insensitive.

By saying everyone is ignorant, everything is offensive and everything is racist we just trivialize real racism.
Which is btw exactly what happened in this thread.
There were actual racist statements made, even some suggesting killing refugees, but all we talked about was carneval costumes and whether or not they're offensive.

Saying everyone is ignorant is not trivializing it, it's stating basic fact. Per the above, I'm clearly ignorant to whatever ganguro means. However when that ignorance is demystified I have a decision to make. Do I continue to propagate the ignorance, or do I fight it? And by fight I don't mean go out and protest. I just mean not take part in a tradition that may be harmful.

I find it kind of hard that some parts of Europe can't see even a tradition can be wrong. In the UK we still have people that won't move on. Black face etc here in the UK isn't illegal but is looked down opon. You will get asked to wash it off etc if a police man sees you and you will probably end up in the press getting ripped apart. Like when Cameron posed with Morris dancers who blackfaced he was deemed a idiot and they were deemed stuck in the past racists.

All places have those people, and it's unfortunate that in some places (such as here in the US with the republican party) they grow to a size in which they have power.
 
Whoever hasn't been painted black as a kid impersonating Casper when going caroling throws the first stone.

Thinking back I'm kinda glad there were so few black people living in my area would have been awkward.
 
It's ignorant of us to expect 'race' to have the exact same connotation elsewhere. Just as it's Ignorant for a German to expect blackface to be acceptable because it's part of 'tradition'.

but Germans used blackface IN GERMANY, not elsewhere. So... yeah.

It would be the same as if Germany started a HUGE moral outrage about Americans using the term "race" to describe people IN the US. You don't see that happening.

Logic doesn't work "everyone else can't do what we find offensive, we can do whatever we want in our country though because everyone else is wrong"?

Anyway, did NOT think people would find little kids celebrating an ancient Christian tradtion to collect money for charity offensive. Good thing those things don't happen in the US then so why can't we all go home and be happy? There are MUCH bigger racism-issues going on (in Germany, mainly Muslim-related, or in the US about... any race not white) in the world that we don't have to condemn an innocent childhood tradition. You don't see adults dressing up as the three kings so it's clearly only a children's tradition.

Also for the record, where I grew up we wouldn't have HAD enough black kids to play one of the three wise kings, so you expect us to either a) abandon something entirely non-offensive to collect charity money just because someone halfway across the globe is offended by it?

Making fun of Communists/China would be VERY offensive in China, does that mean everyone in the rest of the world has to stop doing it? no.
 
In my opinion neither place is ignorant in these regards.
There is nothing wrong with usuing the term "race" colloquially in the US. Using it in a scientific context when refering to humans is wrong, but its just a factually wrong statement, nothing offensive.
Doing a black face in germany is poor taste. "Scientifically traditions are an idiot thing." So its an idiot thing, too. Whether it offensive or not depends. But its certainly not racist.


By saying everyone is ignorant, everything is offensive and everything is racist we just trivialize real racism.
Which is btw exactly what happened in this thread.
There were actual racist statements made, even some suggesting killing refugees, but all we talked about was carneval costumes and whether or not they're offensive.

It is amazing that someone gave you the power to define "real racism". Whoever it was, never listen to that person again.
 
but Germans used blackface IN GERMANY, not elsewhere. So... yeah.

It would be the same as if Germany started a HUGE moral outrage about Americans using the term "race" to describe people IN the US. You don't see that happening.

Logic doesn't work "everyone else can't do what we find offensive, we can do whatever we want in our country though because everyone else is wrong"?

Anyway, did NOT think people would find little kids celebrating an ancient Christian tradtion to collect money for charity offensive. Good thing those things don't happen in the US then so why can't we all go home and be happy? There are MUCH bigger racism-issues going on (in Germany, mainly Muslim-related, or in the US about... any race not white) in the world that we don't have to condemn an innocent childhood tradition. You don't see adults dressing up as the three kings so it's clearly only a children's tradition.

Germans using blackface in Germany is offensive to reasonable people everywhere.
 
Say what you want about USA but you don't see this kinda shit here.

hahahahhahaha.

seriously, do you think germans and americans are that different? I guarantee that as far as uneducated racist pieces of shit goes each country has their fair share.
 
but Germans used blackface IN GERMANY, not elsewhere. So... yeah.

If that's your argument then Germany sure sounds xenophobic. Maybe there's a reason so few black people are present.

Edit:

Making fun of Communists/China would be VERY offensive in China, does that mean everyone in the rest of the world has to stop doing it? no.

Why did you combine Communists and China into one? Making fun of communism is making fun of a political ideology, not a subset of unchoosable traits.
 
Germans using blackface in Germany is offensive to reasonable people everywhere.

I have NEVER heard of anyone being offended by three wise kings blackface in my 19 years of growing up in Switzerland, neither in Switzerland nor in Germany.

This isn't your American "blackface with tradition of being used to portray stupid black people" blackface, this is a Christian Christmas dress-up for kids. None of these kids (or their parents) think one of the three wise kings is inferior to another.

If that's your argument then Germany sure sounds xenophobic. Maybe there's a reason so few black people are present.

Again - the US using the term "race" to describe people would be hugely offensive elsewhere too, does that mean the US using it means that they're using it to say "PICK WHETHER YOU'RE HUMAN OR DOG"? no.
 
You are too quick to dismiss the dangers of mass ignorance, coupled with longstanding societal norms which stem from a very different period in history.

For someone with such a personal connection, you seem fairly ignorant. There is no value in the perspective you share. But there is plenty of potential danger. How in the world do you think these atrocities were committed in the first instance?

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not talking about the assumption of inferiority and danger that led to slavery and the Holocaust in the first place. I categorize that as malice. I'm more talking about things that no one with common sense would assume said things are offensive without being raised in an environment where it's drilled into their heads that it's offensive. A type of ignorance that can transform into malice is not one based on common sense.

If someone with no inherent racism is doing something offensive and they're told that, they would apologize and stop. If someone is doing something intentionally racist, they will double down on their beliefs when told to stop. You see how there's a difference here, right?
 
but Germans used blackface IN GERMANY, not elsewhere. So... yeah.

It would be the same as if Germany started a HUGE moral outrage about Americans using the term "race" to describe people IN the US. You don't see that happening.

Logic doesn't work "everyone else can't do what we find offensive, we can do whatever we want in our country though because everyone else is wrong"?

Anyway, did NOT think people would find little kids celebrating an ancient Christian tradtion to collect money for charity offensive. Good thing those things don't happen in the US then so why can't we all go home and be happy? There are MUCH bigger racism-issues going on (in Germany, mainly Muslim-related, or in the US about... any race not white) in the world that we don't have to condemn an innocent childhood tradition. You don't see adults dressing up as the three kings so it's clearly only a children's tradition.

Also for the record, where I grew up we wouldn't have HAD enough black kids to play one of the three wise kings, so you expect us to either a) abandon something entirely non-offensive to collect charity money just because someone halfway across the globe is offended by it?

Nice strawman with the kids, great way to miss the point.

Reminder, the actual point is pretty easy to understand, yellow/black/redface being racist. Casual racism which makes racism like displayed in the OP much more likely.
 
I have NEVER heard of anyone being offended by three wise kings blackface in my 19 years of growing up in Switzerland, neither in Switzerland nor in Germany.

This isn't your American "blackface with tradition of being used to portray stupid black people" blackface, this is a Christian Christmas dress-up for kids.

People think it's cute. Because that's what it is over here. Kids painting their skin black. Because they're kids. That's all there is to it.
 
Nice strawman with the kids, great way to miss the point.

Reminder, the actual point is pretty easy to understand, yellow/black/redface being racist. Casual racism which makes racism like displayed in the OP much more likely.

There's a difference between "blackface" as it's used in the US and blackface as it's used by German kids though. That's my point.
People think it's cute. Because that's what it is over here. Kids painting their skin black. Because they're kids. That's all there is to it.

that's my point, too.
 
What does that have to do with people defending blackface?

Because little kids dressing up and painting their skin black is NOT offensive in Germany.

Because "indicate your race" is NOT offensive in the US.

Roles reversed, it WOULD be offensive. So why is one okay but the other one isnt?
 
It is amazing that someone gave you the power to define "real racism". Whoever it was, never listen to that person again.

I used the defintion Wikipedia gave me, then someone told me Wikipedia isn't a good source, so I used the definition from a dictionairy, which was the same as the one on Wikipedia.

Should I have asked you?



If that's your argument then Germany sure sounds xenophobic. Maybe there's a reason so few black people are present.
Yeah, the reason is africans weren't shipped to germany as slaves.
 
I have NEVER heard of anyone being offended by three wise kings blackface in my 19 years of growing up in Switzerland, neither in Switzerland nor in Germany.

This isn't your American "blackface with tradition of being used to portray stupid black people" blackface, this is a Christian Christmas dress-up for kids. None of these kids (or their parents) think one of the three wise kings is inferior to another.



Again - the US using the term "race" to describe people would be hugely offensive elsewhere too, does that mean the US using it means that they're using it to say "PICK WHETHER YOU'RE HUMAN OR DOG"? no.


Are you trying to say you never asked or listened? I admittingly did the same, but you know, you can change that.
 
This whole thread started because some Germans felt the Native Americans should have fought harder

No, this whole thread started because people were more offended by dress-up than by the message portrayed.

I don't think ANYONE here is arguing that the message was legitimate and good, if that's all that had happened this thread would have died on page 1. But it escalated from there.

Are you trying to say you never asked or listened? I admittingly did the same, but you know, you can change that.

I'm saying when I dressed up as a little kid and went to collect donations, black Swiss people never opened the door and yelled OMG YOU LITTLE PIECE OF SHIT at me.
 
US-Americans thinking the term "American" automatically means "citizen of the United States of America", probably.

actually because germany doesn't have any african protectorates like france had and has.

Wasn't like... Nigeria German? I don't remember the exact details.
 
Yeah, the reason is africans weren't shipped to germany as slaves.

I guess Germans had the foresight to keep their terrible deeds against black people in Africa so that in the future they can defend their use of blackface.

No, it isn't. It's a common term in Germany. America is the continent, US-Americans are people from the United States.

What is this thread?

USA is in the Americas (The North America in fact). Saying US implies being in America. Thus saying US-America is redundant.
 
This whole thread started because some Germans felt the Native Americans should have fought harder
That's actually not what it says. The translation in the OP is a bit sloppy.

Correct is "The Indians couldn't do anything against immigration. Now they're living in reservations"

It's an idiotic argument, but it also doesn't blame the Indians for anything.
 
I'm not sure what you are asking. I'm not an expert of Japanese culture so my knowledge of 'ganguro' is a porn game in the early 00s. However I know Japan has a terrible track record with its representation of black people, so I'm not going to be particularly surprised if ganguro is equally insensitive.

The thing is blackface IS a thing in Japan which is actually acknowledged as offensive and ignorant as it was taken from American culture. Ganguro on the other hand is based on folklore and kabuki theater, and I think some would consider the notion that it's insensitive at all culturally insensitive on its own.

US-Americans is redundant.

There are South American countries that would find that statement extremely insensitive. I've seen gaffers from I think Brazil that have said as much.
 
No, this whole thread started because people were more offended by dress-up than by the message portrayed.

I don't think ANYONE here is arguing that the message was legitimate and good, if that's all that had happened this thread would have died on page 1. But it escalated from there.
It still comes from a place of ignorance and is wrong.

Europe has a lot of growing up to do when it comes to race relations. It's only going to get worse with the mass migration of people this century. Europeans didn't have to worry about other races because they were tucked away nice and neat in their little colonies. Times are changing and shit like blackface, even as innocuous as this stuff, won't be acceptable forever.
 
Like, the opposition against Black Pete a few years ago wasn't enough to translate to "don't do blackface" ?
 
It still comes from a place of ignorance and is wrong.

Europe has a lot of growing up to do when it comes to race relations. It's only going to get worse with the mass migration of people this century. Europeans didn't have to worry about other races because they were tucked away nice and neat in their little colonies. Times are changing and shit like blackface, even as innocuous as this stuff, won't be acceptable forever.

yeah let's learn from the US where black people get shot for being black by cops? what?

I'm talking about a little kid's tradition that's ONLY offensive to US-Americans because of their OWN tradition/history with slavery and blackface. It is NOT used in that context in Europe and means something much, MUCH different.

Not that I know of, Namibia though.



Colonies and protectorates aren't exactly the same.

ah yes it was Namibia, my bad
 

Not sure what the avatar quote is meant to mean.

The thing is blackface IS a thing in Japan which is actually acknowledged as offensive and ignorant as it was taken from American culture. Ganguro on the other hand is based on folklore and kabuki theater, and I think some would consider the notion that it's insensitive at all culturally insensitive on its own.

I'm not sure what Ganguro can be offensive to since it looks orange (from my searches anyway) and there's no such thing as orange people.
 
Are you using a strawman to not face your racism?

did you read the entire post/any of the other posts I made in this thread?

Him saying "Europe needs to learn about racism"... from whom? Who's the rolemodel here? I'd argue kids dressing up is MUCH less harmful to black people than getting shot for being black by cops.

Not sure what the avatar quote is meant to mean.
.

I noticed your avatar is a character with a black face.
 
yeah let's learn from the US where black people get shot for being black by cops? what?
Deflection. "Look! The US still suffers from racism so our racism isn't so bad!"


When people act racist in the United States they are generally called out and shamed/educated for it. They don't stick their fingers in their ears and yell "tradition!" at the top of their lungs over and over again.
 
Deflection. "Look! The US still suffers from racism so our racism isn't so bad!"


When people act racist in the United States they are generally called out and shamed/educated for it. They don't stick their fingers in their ears and yell "tradition!" at the top of their lungs over and over again.

Last time I heard about that someone said "WELL BLACK PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE WEARING HOODIES", so............. yeah.
 
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