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Metal Gear Solid 4 |OT| No Place to Hide, No Time for a Legend to FoxDie

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Torquill

Member
Moray said:
Well call me naive and immature but I would much rather read a book to get a good story than to try and wade through the convoluted and seemingly shallow "mature" story that MGS4 is presenting.
Okay, I will. I think that's an immature attitude. Just because books have had more time to mature doesn't make them an, inheriently, superioer story-telling medium. I think games are just as condusive to story-telling as books, and certainly moreso than film (which suffers from insurmountably restrictive time issues, though the concept of a series can get around this). THey're just still very immature and people are still exploring the story-telling capacity.

EDIT: oh, you meant MGS specifically nm, that'll teach me to not actually read a post before I respond XD
 

DangerStepp

Member
Firewire said:
If I remember correctly you had to crawl under a car at one spot and under a collapsed wall at another. I'm sure there are more instances that will come into play, but due to limited playing time I'm only early on in Act 2.
Haha, me too! We're probably at the same spot, which is the reason why I was asking. I feel as though I'm not using the game to it's full potential if I'm not using every single item/ability. I guess I'll keep playing to find out. Thanks for the help, pal. Enjoy!
 
jaaz said:
I, for one, am not the least bit surprised to find some people complaining about the cut scenes. After all, many of these same people are from the same generation that believes Cloverfield was the greatest movie ever made, have never and would never play an adventure game if their life depended on it, and "DO NOT WANT" any semblance of an actual, mature story interfering with their run-and-shoot style of game playing.

On the other hand, some of us (perhaps the older crowd--who knows) want to view cut scenes so that we can understand and appreciate what we are doing in the gameplay, why we are doing it, and so that we can relate to and care about the character that we are playing. Any good movie director will tell you that if you can't make the audience care about what happens to the characters in your movie, you've failed.

Play any style game that you want, which may very well mean that MGS4 is not for you. But to criticize and label as "flawed" a game like MGS4 that actually dares in this day and age of mindless action shooters to blur the line between a movie and a game by using a number of cut scenes to tell a story and make the player care about the character they are playing, just shows naivety and immaturity.

While I agree with most of your post, I felt some of the cutscenes drug on a bit.

Spoilers:

Pretty much the entire closing sequence felt a little long, mostly due to the loading between each scene. Especially the scene with Drebin explaining the SOP syndrome deal and everything. Then Big Boss comes back and seemingly dies 5-6 times in the closing cinematic. As extatic as I was when he appeared, I was almost begging him to croke so I could see my stats. And the loading...god the loading. I didn't mind the chapter installs at first, but then going back to replay and finding that it has to do it every time I start a different act was a little annoying. I wish they would have just made the chapter installs 7-10 minutes long in order to avoid having to hit a loading screen every 3 minutes. Other than that it was all great.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
Moray said:
Well call me naive and immature but I would much rather read a book to get a good story than to try and wade through the convoluted and seemingly shallow "mature" story that MGS4 is presenting. You seem to be confusing mature themes with a mature story.

It may not be a fair criticism of the game since much of its popularity is indeed because of the cutscenes and such, but stereotyping people like that isn't helping discussion, especially when you throw the ageism in there. And by calling these days the "age of mindless shooters" you're ignoring games like BioShock that integrate a "mature" story in a more interactive fashion.


Good post.
 

Orlics

Member
jaaz said:
I, for one, am not the least bit surprised to find some people complaining about the cut scenes. After all, many of these same people are from the same generation that believes Cloverfield was the greatest movie ever made, have never and would never play an adventure game if their life depended on it, and "DO NOT WANT" any semblance of an actual, mature story interfering with their run-and-shoot style of game playing.

On the other hand, some of us (perhaps the older crowd--who knows) want to view cut scenes so that we can understand and appreciate what we are doing in the gameplay, why we are doing it, and so that we can relate to and care about the character that we are playing. Any good movie director will tell you that if you can't make the audience care about what happens to the characters in your movie, you've failed.

Play any style game that you want, which may very well mean that MGS4 is not for you. But to criticize and label as "flawed" a game like MGS4 that actually dares in this day and age of mindless action shooters to blur the line between a movie and a game by using a number of cut scenes to tell a story and make the player care about the character they are playing, just shows naivety and immaturity.

I like the way MGS presents its story, but the elitism and pretentiousness in this post ("we are older and more mature!!! LOL"/"action movies are juvenile"/"games should always have characters we care about"/"insult my game that takes cues from film and you're naive and immature") honestly makes me ashamed to be a MGS fan.
 

Moray

Member
Torquill said:
Okay, I will. I think that's an immature attitude. Just because books have had more time to mature doesn't make them an, inheriently, superioer story-telling medium. I think games are just as condusive to story-telling as books, and certainly moreso than film (which suffers from insurmountably restrictive time issues, though the concept of a series can get around this). THey're just still very immature and people are still exploring the story-telling capacity.

No, it's a fundamental difference because (non-illustrated) books leave everything up to your imagination. I personally prefer that form of story-telling and so I'm usually not looking for much of a story in my games (and usually just stick to multiplayer stuff). Just saying that there are exceptions to his stereotype... I'm not immature for not appreciating MGS's story-telling method.
 

Dez

Member
teh_J0kerer said:
I dont get it.. isnt this series supposed to be about sneaking? If sneaking only leads to getting caught and being forced to easily kill everyone, whats the point? The Thief games do this right: sneak or die.

The game is most intense when you're trying to sneak through the levels with no alerts. There's a certain satisfaction to playing the games that way. There is motivation to do this, with rewards for no alert runs etc.
 

Torquill

Member
Gorechylde said:
I wish they would have just made the chapter installs 7-10 minutes long in order to avoid having to hit a loading screen every 3 minutes.
Doesn't quite work out that simply. You can't just convert load time into install time :p. Load time is not JUST disc reading :p.
 

Firewire

Banned
Moray said:
Well call me naive and immature but I would much rather read a book to get a good story than to try and wade through the convoluted and seemingly shallow "mature" story that MGS4 is presenting. You seem to be confusing mature themes with a mature story.

It may not be a fair criticism of the game since much of its popularity is indeed because of the cutscenes and such, but stereotyping people like that isn't helping discussion, especially when you throw the ageism in there. And by calling these days the "age of mindless shooters" you're ignoring games like BioShock that integrate a "mature" story in a more interactive fashion.


MGS fans know about the cut scenes, and they appreciate the cut scenes because they allow major segments of the story to be unraveled. There has been allot of talk about cut scenes and the length of them before the game even released. Anyone that purchased MGS4 should have known what they were getting into, using cut scenes now as a reason to bitch against MGS4 is just laughable.
 

DangerStepp

Member
To those who are griping about cut-scene length. Metal Gear is obviously not the game for you and you should go back to Madden.


On a similar note, has anyone noticed how the story isn't shy about doing into deep territory without any effort to catch an uneducated player up to speed? I love it.

I'm curious to see how those who haven't played the previous games are faring. About as well as a fish out of water no doubt.
 

Moray

Member
Firewire said:
MGS fans know about the cut scenes, and they appreciate the cut scenes because they allow major segments of the story to be unraveled. There has been allot of talk about cut scenes and the length of them before the game even released. Anyone that purchased MGS4 should have known what they were getting into, using cut scenes now as a reason to bitch against MGS4 is just laughable.

I mentioned this in a previous post but I'm not bitching against MGS4... it's my first Metal Gear game and I bought it knowing what I was going into. The gameplay is phenomenal. I just don't care for the cutscenes (and skip the non-action orientated ones), although I acknowledge that I probably would had I played the previous games. Just offering some criticism on the story-telling method from an outsider's point of view.
 

$h@d0w

Junior Member
DangerStepp said:
To those who are griping about cut-scene length. Metal Gear is obviously not the game for you and you should go back to Madden.


On a similar note, has anyone noticed how the story isn't shy about doing into deep territory without any effort to catch an uneducated player up to speed? I love it.

I'm curious to see how those who haven't played the previous games are faring. About as well as a fish out of water no doubt.

I was surprised about this actually. When Payton had mentioned the flashbacks, I thought they were going to be optional cutscenes that literallly replayed scenes that had already happened in previous games.
 

Moray

Member
lawblob said:
I am not sure what I am doing wrong, but Militia members keep shooting me, even though I haven't killed a single one. Why?

Have you
helped them against the PMCs?
(not major spoiler)
 

Torquill

Member
I think there's a fundamental scission between people who don't mind lots of inter-mingled passive watching with their gameplay and those who find they enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks. It only bugs me when people try to make arguments that the concept is "inherently bad" and "should never happen".
 

Orlics

Member
Torquill said:
I think there's a fundamental scission between people who don't mind lots of inter-mingled passive watching with their gameplay and those who find they enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks. It only bugs me when people try to make arguments that the concept is "inherently bad" and "should never happen".

The people who are saying that those who don't like it are "immature" and should "go back to Madden" are just as bad.

I haven't been around GAF too long but I'd be willing to bet that we argue about the exact same things whenever a MGS game comes out. :lol
 

Torquill

Member
Orlics said:
The people who are saying that those who don't like it are "immature" and should "go back to Madden" are just as bad.

I haven't been around GAF too long but I'd be willing to bet that we argue about the exact same things whenever a MGS game comes out. :lol

I agree, and I have no doubt lol.
 

Barrett2

Member
Moray said:
Have you
helped them against the PMCs?
(not major spoiler)

Yes. I did everything I could think of in that regard, but as soon as
I descend into their underground lair in Act1
, they shoot me on sight.
 

Steroyd

Member
I have a question, if I aim to get the Big Boss emblem, am I killing about 4 or 5 birds with 1 stone (i.e do I get the similar emblems on the lower difficulties?)

I think i'll have some fun playthoughs on solid normal and stock up on ammo and weapons now. :D
 

rabhw

Member
This might be a silly question, but I'm not a series 'veteran'. I beat the game a couple of days ago on solid normal (loved it), and I'm trying to do a no kill / alert run now on new game+. If I accidentally trigger an alert, what's the best way to "quick load" back to the nearest place? If I let the enemies kill me and let the game load the nearest checkpoint, will the alert that I triggered before I died be counted? Do I have to exit to the title screen and load the last major save?
 

Dez

Member
rabhw said:
This might be a silly question, but I'm not a series 'veteran'. I beat the game a couple of days ago on solid normal (loved it), and I'm trying to do a no kill / alert run now on new game+. If I accidentally trigger an alert, what's the best way to "quick load" back to the nearest place? If I let the enemies kill me and let the game load the nearest checkpoint, will the alert that I triggered before I died be counted? Do I have to exit to the title screen and load the last major save?

I believe letting yourself die works. In MGS3, you could use the fake death pill to kill yourself. Unfortunately there's nothing like that in 4.
 
lawblob said:
Yes. I did everything I could think of in that regard, but as soon as
I descend into their underground lair in Act1
, they shoot me on sight.
Did you stop when they asked you to? Everytime someone spots you, they'll ask you to not move. After a while they say something like, "oh, it's you. Go.".
 

DangerStepp

Member
rabhw said:
This might be a silly question, but I'm not a series 'veteran'. I beat the game a couple of days ago on solid normal (loved it), and I'm trying to do a no kill / alert run now on new game+. If I accidentally trigger an alert, what's the best way to "quick load" back to the nearest place? If I let the enemies kill me and let the game load the nearest checkpoint, will the alert that I triggered before I died be counted? Do I have to exit to the title screen and load the last major save?

That sounds about right. I figure it'll take you back to the checkpoint before you were spotted.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
lawblob said:
Yes. I did everything I could think of in that regard, but as soon as
I descend into their underground lair in Act1
, they shoot me on sight.

You need to
sneak into their back room and find one of their outfits in a locker.
After that, they'll leave you alone.
 

Steroyd

Member
lawblob said:
Yes. I did everything I could think of in that regard, but as soon as
I descend into their underground lair in Act1
, they shoot me on sight.

Have you ever accidently killed any rebels?

They need to "see" you fight against the PMC's btw.
 

Barrett2

Member
archnemesis said:
Did you stop when they asked you to? Everytime someone spots you, they'll ask you to not move. After a while they say something like, "oh, it's you. Go.".

I think that is my problem. Now that I think about it, I do remember disregarding NPCs when they said that to me. Damn....

edit: I also didn't know about
finding their uniform in a locker
. I will look for that.
 
N

NinjaFridge

Unconfirmed Member
birdman said:
Shit! How? Shooting the legs?


Yeah couple of shots to one of the legs and they will go down. i don't know if it actually knocks them out but it puts them down long enough for you to get by them without getting into any problems
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
I just finished Act 3 and watched the briefing to Act 4. The emotion in this game is incredible. Honestly, I haven't felt this attached to a game on an emotional level since Shadow of the Colossus.
 
Moray said:
Well call me naive and immature but I would much rather read a book to get a good story than to try and wade through the convoluted and seemingly shallow "mature" story that MGS4 is presenting. You seem to be confusing mature themes with a mature story.

It may not be a fair criticism of the game since much of its popularity is indeed because of the cutscenes and such, but stereotyping people like that isn't helping discussion, especially when you throw the ageism in there. And by calling these days the "age of mindless shooters" you're ignoring games like BioShock that integrate a "mature" story in a more interactive fashion.

to be honest story forms a pretty important motivation for me in games....a complex plot, developed characters, and interestings are certainly hallmarks of superior storytelling...another aspect however is a certain atmosphere sorrounding the characters which I find difficult to articulate...charisma? warmth? personality traits etc. I find the characters in MGS have these qualities, which, personally, gives me certain interest in the plot... In contrast, a game such as Mass effect has much more realistic character dialogue and a consistant plot, I certainly enjoy that game as well, but the characters lack this quality....

Personally I think gaming is a better medium than films for complex fictional storytelling and has as much potential as books, the level hasn't reached yet though
 

domlolz

Banned
I like Cloverfield-I also like the abundance of cutscenes in MGS4

I felt the last twist was a bit heavy handed though-I'd of been fine to have had Liquid actually taking over Ocelot's body and not Ocelot pretending to be Liquid-after that it makes us question why exactly were we chasing Ocelot around the world

But apart from that-it's all fantastic
 

Steroyd

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
I just finished Act 3 and watched the briefing to Act 4. The emotion in this game is incredible. Honestly, I haven't felt this attached to a game on an emotional level since Shadow of the Colossus.

You think that now, just wait till near the end of Act 5. So awesome. :)
 

Epix

Member
The rumble is very well done. Every thing that effects Snake physically (be it during gameplay or cutscenes) is accurately represented with rumble feedback. Best rumble so far IMO.
 
2h6wztf.jpg


Man I love this game.

DOM
I have been meaning to tell you this bro.
Your avatar is awesome nice job.
 

Undeux

Member
jaaz said:
I, for one, am not the least bit surprised to find some people complaining about the cut scenes. After all, many of these same people are from the same generation that believes Cloverfield was the greatest movie ever made, have never and would never play an adventure game if their life depended on it, and "DO NOT WANT" any semblance of an actual, mature story interfering with their run-and-shoot style of game playing.

On the other hand, some of us (perhaps the older crowd--who knows) want to view cut scenes so that we can understand and appreciate what we are doing in the gameplay, why we are doing it, and so that we can relate to and care about the character that we are playing. Any good movie director will tell you that if you can't make the audience care about what happens to the characters in your movie, you've failed.

Play any style game that you want, which may very well mean that MGS4 is not for you. But to criticize and label as "flawed" a game like MGS4 that actually dares in this day and age of mindless action shooters to blur the line between a movie and a game by using a number of cut scenes to tell a story and make the player care about the character they are playing, just shows naivety and immaturity.

Are you kidding? There's not much I can add to Moray's response, but do you honestly think that a (end spoiler)
armless ninja fighting off an endless supply of genetically enhanced soldiers
constitutes a mature plot? It's embarrassing that MGS4 counts as a good, mature story.

Torquill said:
Okay, I will. I think that's an immature attitude. Just because books have had more time to mature doesn't make them an, inheriently, superioer story-telling medium. I think games are just as condusive to story-telling as books, and certainly moreso than film (which suffers from insurmountably restrictive time issues, though the concept of a series can get around this). THey're just still very immature and people are still exploring the story-telling capacity.

They have the potential to be a great story telling vehicle, but the content chosen is consistently horrible. The shining examples of storytelling in video games are awful - look at any JRPG, or MGS, and even Bioshock has huge problems. The argument that video games need more time to "mature" is irrelevant - a story is a story. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Adapting that to video game form doesn't take enough to excuse stories from being so bad, especially with a game like MGS4, where it essentially is 45% cutscenes.
 

Solo

Member
One of the more awesome graphical touches in the game is from the final fight.
I absolutely loved/was amazed by how Snake's suit, all torn up from the giant microwave thingie, rippled in the wind on top of the ship, much like his bandanna always does.
 
Explanation for FOXDIE:
Ocelot was the youngest, which is why it took him the longest to get killed by FOXDIE. I am also certain EVA didn't die from FOXDIE. She died from being impaled on the fence and slowly bled out. Maybe the weakened state of her body accelerated the effects of FOXDIE, but I am certain she died from being impaled. Sure FOXDIE would have eventually killed her, but getting skewered by a fence sure accelerated things. Finally, Big Boss was the oldest and in the worst shape. He spent must of his life in a limbless state where he was barely alive. Being in such a weak state probably left him with little immune system to slow down the virus.
Explanation for Liquid Ocelot's motives:
The reason why Liquid Ocelot won't tell Snake his true intentions until all is said and done, because the only way to defeat the Patriot's is to use their power and ways against them. Since the Patriot's are a series of AI, they are somewhat predictable in the way they operate. That's why a lot of the characters mention that the "cycle" will just continue unless The System is destroyed. Knowing this Liquid Ocelot was able to manipulate the situation in order to have Solid Snake and Philanthropy infect GW and take down The System. The Patriot's were unaware of Liquid's true intentions. They thought Liquid was planning to take over SOP through GW, but his plan all along was to destroy The Patriots using the indirect help of Solid Snake and Naomi. The Patriots knew that GW had to be destroyed in order to stop Liquid's supposed insurrection. That is why they guided Solid Snake all the way into Outer Haven where he ultimately plants the virus that is supposed to destroy GW, effectively stopping Liquid's insurrection. However, The Patriots did not take into account Sunny's programming skills, which created FOXALIVE that would disperse throughout the whole Patriot's Network dismantling the entire Patriots. Ocelot needed to maintain the facade that he was only in it to take over the Patriots, not to destroy it. If The Patriots get any hint of Liquid's true intentions, the whole operation would have been called off, in fear of the virus that was created compromising the entire System. The Patriots took for granted the fact that everyone thought it was impossible to destroy all the AIs through GW. It took the mind of a child, who has not grown up in the propaganda-filled world of The Patriots to destroy The System. She was unfettered by the misconceptions that the Patriots were unstoppable, which allowed her to create the virus that destroyed them. Sunny was someone that always lived on the "inside" where the propaganda created by The Patriots didn't exist. She was never subjected to the subliminal messaging of the Patriots. Sunny was able to see that they are just a system of computers, nothing more, nothing less.
 

Ferrio

Banned
snack said:
Explanation for FOXDIE:
Ocelot was the youngest, which is why it took him the longest to get killed by FOXDIE. I am also certain EVA didn't die from FOXDIE. She died from being impaled on the fence and slowly bled out.


If i recall Big Boss flat out said Foxdie killed her
 

Durante

Member
Undeux said:
Are you kidding? There's not much I can add to Moray's response, but do you honestly think that a (end spoiler)
armless ninja fighting off an endless supply of genetically enhanced soldiers
constitutes a mature plot? It's embarrassing that MGS4 counts as a good, mature story.
I'm not going into a discussion of how "mature" MGS4's plot is as I consider it meaningless, but are you arguing here that no fantasy story (or any story not grounded in reality) can be good or mature?

Solo said:
One of the more awesome graphical touches in the game is from the final fight.
I absolutely loved/was amazed by how Snake's suit, all torn up from the giant microwave thingie, rippled in the wind on top of the ship, much like his bandanna always does.
I agree, until I zoomed in
and subsequently even started to play
I couldn't believe that that part was realtime.
 

Orlics

Member
Durante said:
I'm not going into a discussion of how "mature" MGS4's plot is as I consider it meaningless, but are you arguing here that no fantasy story (or any story not grounded in reality) can be good or mature?

The way I see it, some fantasy stories have more depth than others. MGS4 certainly has more depth than something like Serious Sam.

However, this doesn't mean that "mature" players (however you define that) HAVE to tend toward the one with more depth, always. Some people just dislike having to pay attention playing video games, AND THIS SHOULD NEVER BE CONSIDERED A BAD THING. Wanting a simple plot and wanting to have more gameplay don't make the person less mature.
 

Undeux

Member
Durante said:
I'm not going into a discussion of how "mature" MGS4's plot is as I consider it meaningless, but are you arguing here that no fantasy story (or any story not grounded in reality) can be good or mature?

Definitely not, but I guess I just think that at some point a line should be drawn. If the fantasy element is being used to present themes that couldn't have otherwise been explored
(like the system, the patriots, etc)
then I think it's perfectly fine. And ridiculous action scenes are fine too, but, like i said, a line has to be drawn. I think my post gives a bad impression - I don't really care if a story is mature or not, as long as it's a good game. My problem was the original poster's somewhat pretentious attitude more than the maturity of the story.
 

burgerdog

Member
rabhw said:
This might be a silly question, but I'm not a series 'veteran'. I beat the game a couple of days ago on solid normal (loved it), and I'm trying to do a no kill / alert run now on new game+. If I accidentally trigger an alert, what's the best way to "quick load" back to the nearest place? If I let the enemies kill me and let the game load the nearest checkpoint, will the alert that I triggered before I died be counted? Do I have to exit to the title screen and load the last major save?

Go to the save menu, click on exit to title screen and reload your game. That is the fastest way. If you let enemies kill you and continue that will count as an alert AND continue both so you do not want to do that.
 
Dez said:
I believe letting yourself die works. In MGS3, you could use the fake death pill to kill yourself. Unfortunately there's nothing like that in 4.

Pause, go to save, and there is a quit to title screen option there. Faster than suiciding, usually.

edit: beaten
 
BruceLeeRoy said:


Man I love this game.

DOM
I have been meaning to tell you this bro.
Your avatar is awesome nice job.

i wish i could have that cover. anyone want to do a hirez scan of the european artistic cover so i can print it and throw away that cg shit.
 
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