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Game Pass = S-Tier

PS Plus = D-Tier

They are delusional

They aren't trying to be the same thing at all though.

All PS Plus is, is implied in the name. A 3 tier service offering to expand and enhance their core console experience. Game Pass doesn't even require an Xbox, its a complete replacement for a console-centric ecosystem.

MS' actual PS Plus equivalent, Games With Gold, has been phased out after years of decline.

 

[RickMasters]

Yeah, except Microsoft is now forcing absurd pricing on their first party games to force you into Gamepass. Failure jak Redfall should be on discount since launch, yet it stays at rock solid $70:

The above is for Xbox but it's the same on Steam. Choice and consumer friendly my ass. Even Diablo 4 already had some discounts.

What? You do realise Sony and Nintendo were the first to raise the prices in their games…. What do you have to say about that?


Also….. why would you buy redfall for 70 bucks when you can either try it for yourself at no real extra cost on GPU…. Or use common sense read the reviews and not spend 70 bucks on the game….. are you really this devoid of common sense, with your own wallet?



You keep pointing out that MS have 70 dollar games while ignoring the fact that Sony and Nintendo are selling their games at the same price. You can’t be taken seriously.

 

[Tams]

Yeah, I get your point.
But first we have to agree that Neogaf is in no way representative of the average consumer.
In fact, people on gaming forums are a minority within the core gaming demographic, which are already a minority in gaming.

Having said that, the average consumer plays COD, Fortnite, GTAV, maybe Apex Legends and then probably 1 racing game and 1 or 2 sports games.

To be anecdotal, typically, I play 1 or 2 multiplayer games which are my go-to games and then whatever major titles or games I'm interested in release a year (let's say 2 - 4 games on average outside any multiplayer game).

The cost of a game is negligible, because it's not like I buy games on a weekly or monthly basis.

Then there is the perception of something like GamePass. The perception is that it offers great value for it's price, but when you then look at what you'll most likely be playing, that perception already changes, because why am I paying for all those games I don't have interest in?
It's the same as Netflix, it seems like great value, until you realize you either don't like the majority of content or you're just not interested. So what's the point of paying for Netflix really?
This goes even more so for gaming, which btw is kinda niche compared to Netflix.

This anecdote falls more in line with the average consumer, with the biggest difference being that the average consumer doesn't nearly put in the same amount of time into gaming.

GamePass and any other streaming service will stagnate rather quickly this way, something we already see right now with GamePass.
That's why Jim Ryan mention GamePass being only 25M subs instead of 50M.

Yeah, unless you are someone who jumps around forms of media a lot, then subscriptions just aren't good value for money.

The only ones that really work are music, other audio (books and podcasts), and ebooks.

Music has the most merit, as: you can do other stuff while listening to it; are likely to want to listen to new music; it takes relatively little to produce; and most music is very short, so you can fit a lot of variety in.

Podcasts and audiobooks are longer, but are disposable. You don't tend to go back to them once done with them. They take longer to experience, but still nowhere near most games. And you can do other stuff at the same time.

Ebooks can take up a large amount of time, but to most people they are also disposable. Subscriptions to them have less solid founding. Comics are shorter and disposable, so have a stronger chance of being good value as a subscription service.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Actually again, there is plenty of good stuff I have to say about some of their products and even some of their direction especially in the past, but since I disagree about the saviour of gaming GamePass and all that should be burnt at the altar of making them succeed I have just my hateful opinion vs your joyous facts eh ?

Come on, you make yourself look like part of a cult, you are better than that. Edit: still with that “we know”, we… as if you were a collective and maybe you are eh ?

I have never implied that I think gamepass is the saviour of gaming so I'm not sure why you are putting those words in my mouth. I just like gamepass, it works for me.

Why is there some strange thing on this forum that if you say you like game pass for the service it provides that you apart of some cult?

Infact don't bother, I know the latest narrative after "Microsoft has no games" "just play on pc" etc etc is that anyone who likes a Microsoft product or game is a paid shill.

 

[adamsapple]

How is this calculated? Doesn’t it include all the DLC purchases for games available on GP or even the games themselves (can you even buy a game outright that is available via GP)?

Yes, why wouldn't you be able to?

 

[Gravemind]

Cryin' Jim Ryan at it again.

 

[Tams]

Problem is they are fighting their own war. Sony and Xbox are fighting over the same generation. Nintendo are not even last gen, they're not even 2 gens behind. I would argue that Steam Deck is on the same gen as PS/Xbox than those two.

Nintendo are just doing their own thing, and it's working out great for them.

They have a strong stable of IPs, that they know the value of and have long fought to maintain the value of.

That's why you rarely see discounts on Nintendo games. It's why their GAAS games are very old emulations, often of IPs that they have left to languish (so no further harm can really be done), and some which they want to rebuild interest in.

 

[KXVXII9X]

This is false, I'm afraid. For as long as I've been ordering games online and reading about them on forums, gamers have been absolutely committed to paying as little as possible for their games and debating the value in the pricing.

Gamers have talked about the value of games relentlessly, from play time to comparing games to other mediums - how much does it cost to watch a movie per hour vs how much a game costs. Why Ocarina of Time is such good value when you can play it for days versus something that can be completed in a few hours.

Gamers are obsessed with value, ratings, stats, arguing and bad faith statements. Gamepass has not changed anything in that regard.

I see. That is a bit different than my experience then, but I haven't really got into Western gaming until 2011 though, so the gaming community (online and offline) I was exposed to was possibly different. The generations were different where we traded physical games with friends and went to Blockbuster to rent games (which is a similar idea to GamePass). Gamers were also tired of Nintendo games staying full price even back then, so this isn't entirely new.

I'm just seeing more extreme takes and maybe it is just me noticing them more. Some vocal online gamers are wanting everything free instead of just cheap (probably vocal minority of kids). Instead of 8-hour games being too small, games that aren't 50+ hours are too short, even if they are expertly made. I'm just seeing more of an emphasis on cost per hours played when it comes to purchasing games that I saw even several years ago. I think it is due to a multitude of reasons and not just GamePass. This is just all based on my personal experience. I could be wrong.

I think with Zelda OoT's case, it was also due to it being a big graphical upgrade over the previous Zelda game, while offering more immersive gameplay. The 3D open world environment was still very novel. It had a lot of things going for it. I don't think length was the only factor in its value. It was the full package.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

I think with Zelda OoT's case, it was also due to it being a big graphical upgrade over the previous Zelda game, while offering more immersive gameplay. The 3D open world environment was still very novel. It had a lot of things going for it. I don't think length was the only factor in its value. It was the full package.

Sorry, OOT was just the first title I thought of that wasn't 8 hours long, the fact that it's one of the greats is just more ammo for why it's a better 'investment' than some other games.

Going back to the early 2000s I remember people here in the UK buying games from Canada and either modding their consoles or buying discs to bypass region protection in order to save money on games.

The original PlayStation was arguably a giant hit partly because it was so easy to play copied games on, it was very, very widespread.

But whatever the case, gamers are always quick to get some kind of data worked out to try and work out an angle, sometimes for the sake of arguing about what's best, sometimes because it's been somewhat curated by decades of reviews being calibrated to a decimal point, etc. Etc.

I don't think there's any danger that someone won't be talking about how many hours it takes to complete a game and how much it cost them and how many hours they'll get out of it. Even more likely if it's first party.

 

[KXVXII9X]

You

You handwaved away the race to the bottom on mobile phones (people still spend a lot on all sorts of mobile phones and yet do not want to pay for games, $7.99 for Super Mario Run, $4.99 for Her Story… “oh my God sooo expensive!”) for software and yet it still happened. You are discovering people being stingy about everything but what they truly value where they splurge…

The “oh but it could not happen on consoles no matter how” seems wishful thinking.

This was the point I was trying to make, thank you. I saw this kind of thinking take over mobile games before they were known as F2P dominated. A lot of mobile games before would be considered indie darlings. A lot of creative games that used touch controls. You also had bigger budget games like Infinity Blade, N.O.V.A. 3, and Chaos Rings that offered you PSP like experiences at that time for a third less. It was sadly the mobile titles that were too expensive. I'm seeing some of the same attitudes pour into console gaming and noticing a shift in how games are made and how the community reacts to paid games vs the F2P model.

 

[dotnotbot]

What? You do realise Sony and Nintendo were the first to raise the prices in their games…. What do you have to say about that?


Also….. why would you buy redfall for 70 bucks when you can either try it for yourself at no real extra cost on GPU…. Or use common sense read the reviews and not spend 70 bucks on the game….. are you really this devoid of common sense, with your own wallet?



You keep pointing out that MS have 70 dollar games while ignoring the fact that Sony and Nintendo are selling their games at the same price. You can’t be taken seriously.

Huh? The problem isn't 60 or 70 bucks, the problem is lack of discount when virtually no one buys this game anymore. If you want to try this game you're forced to sub to Gamepass.

why would you buy redfall for 70 bucks when you can either try it for yourself at no real extra cost on GPU

See? That is the problem. If Gamepass didn't exist, Redfall would be already bargain bin game.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Sorry, OOT was just the first title I thought of that wasn't 8 hours long, the fact that it's one of the greats is just more ammo for why it's a better 'investment' than some other games.

Going back to the early 2000s I remember people here in the UK buying games from Canada and either modding their consoles or buying discs to bypass region protection in order to save money on games.

The original PlayStation was arguably a giant hit partly because it was so easy to play copied games on, it was very, very widespread.

But whatever the case, gamers are always quick to get some kind of data worked out to try and work out an angle, sometimes for the sake of arguing about what's best, sometimes because it's been somewhat curated by decades of reviews being calibrated to a decimal point, etc. Etc.

I don't think there's any danger that someone won't be talking about how many hours it takes to complete a game and how much it cost them and how many hours they'll get out of it. Even more likely if it's first party.

I think I do remember people would buy disc from a different region, mostly due to it not being available or to get games in the states due to them being cheaper but not to that extent. Interesting. I also didn't know people copies games on PSX. There was a lot of copying and pirating stuff back then. The CD's and the internet were the wild west of burning any free content you could find.

I still think games now are mostly being judged primarily on how many hours they take to beat instead of other things that also effect the overall quality. I hardly see discussions on the soundtracks of game, gripping stories, or cool gameplay implementations like physics and AI. As long as games offer a lot of content, it seems like the overall communities eat them up. Zelda TotK and Baldur's Gate 3 are some of the first games in while where gameplay systems were the spark of gaming discussion. Same with Elden Ring, even though I didn't enjoy it much.

 

[DrFigs]

Huh? The problem isn't 60 or 70 bucks, the problem is lack of discount when virtually no one buys this game anymore. If you want to try this game you're forced to sub to Gamepass.



See? That is the problem. If Gamepass didn't exist, Redfall would be already bargain bin game.

This is a really interesting argument. i've never heard it before wrt subscription services.

 

[RickMasters]

Huh? The problem isn't 60 or 70 bucks, the problem is lack of discount when virtually no one buys this game anymore. If you want to try this game you're forced to sub to Gamepass.



See? That is the problem. If Gamepass didn't exist, Redfall would be already bargain bin game.

Or it just be a flat out sales bomb. Because there would be no option…. “Forced” is a gross exeaggeration. You still have the option to buy. That’s always there. But at least I got to try it for myself before I declared it a dud.


Look how many shit games come out that you can’t demo but are ‘forced’ to buy Should you IGNORE the reviews….at least I can say “I tried it for myself on gamepass”


You are not forced into anything. Stop being so dramatic. If game pass existed earlier maybe some of the studios MS closed down could have gotten by on the of niche games they were doing.


What you are saying makes no sense. ME Sony and Nintendo charge you 70 bucks for a new game. Yet you don’t describe the other two as a forced scenario….. your aversion and hate to all things Xbox has literally blinded you to this very fact. How are you seriously gonna gonna talk about MS forcing you to pay 70 bucks for a game when Sony and Nintendo are doing the exact same thing?…… yet MS is the only one with the OPTION to sub and have access to it all? I think you don’t know what the term ‘forced’ means at this point…..



As for discounts. I can’t speak for psn but I k ow I’ve bought AAA games in sales marked 70% below RRP. There’s a publisher sales on the Xbox market place right now… 70% off AAA games. You want 99% off or something?

 

[Thirty7ven]

This is a really interesting argument. i've never heard it before wrt subscription services.

We’ve been talking about this for a minute now. They will give you a discount if you have gamepass and buy a game that is on gamepass though lolol

MS will keep first party game prices high not because they are ever green, far from it, but because it artificially adds value to gamepass.

 

[OuterLimits]

I don't disagree with some points Jim makes, but hard to take him seriously when PS+ Premium is a giant scam.(and it just increased even more in price.). Rarely are classics actually added, and I believe zero PS2 games have been added since the first batch released at the launch of the tier.

 

[Jboemios]

Game Pass = S-Tier

PS Plus = D-Tier

They are delusional

I would call the original PSNow D-tier. That was really trash. The new PSN service is good, but Gamepass is still superior.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

We will see and you will break in a cold sweat later lol. The point is all the same game value perception. Game Pass hurts that… or are you going to say that game sales have improved on Xbox or stayed the same because MStestified of the opposite… … come on…

Gamepass doesn't hurt the perception of value in the way that you think it does. Gamepass seems like great value because you can play $70 games for $15. It doesn't make $70 games seem like $15 games.

 

[jorgejjvr]

I love gamepass but Jim isn't necessarily wrong. I'm sure not even Microsoft is happy with their current numbers. Gp is great for consumers but subscription services aren't an automatic winning strategy, even steaming services are strugtling to keep up

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I love gamepass but Jim isn't necessarily wrong. I'm sure not even Microsoft is happy with their current numbers. Gp is great for consumers but subscription services aren't an automatic winning strategy, even steaming services are strugtling to keep up

Xbox consoles aren't selling and PC gamers only care about Steam.

I honestly don't know how Microsoft thinks it can get more subscribers.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Gamepass doesn't hurt the perception of value in the way that you think it does. Gamepass seems like great value because you can play $70 for $15. It doesn't make $70 seem like $15 games.

In your head the rationale might stop halfway to the point where you have but praise for the service, but in reality what happens is that people stop buying games because they consider them too expensive, and I mean they consider they aren’t worth the asking price, and the buck doesn’t stop at full price either.

To think people used to throw shade at games that sold millions more after discounts, yet somebody who would spend 20$ a month on heavily discounted games is now much much more likely to wait for the game to hit gamepass.

 

[Banjo64]

Xbox consoles aren't selling and PC gamers only care about Steam.

I honestly don't know how Microsoft thinks it can get more subscribers.

I’m guessing they think CoD will rail road users in to their eco system.

We already saw what happened when ABK tried to do that by making CoD a Battle.net exclusive. It didn’t work, and they had to bring it back to Steam.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Gamepass doesn't hurt the perception of value in the way that you think it does. Gamepass seems like great value because you can play $70 for $15. It doesn't make $70 seem like $15 games.

It does, even MS is aware of it, but not only they do not care, they know how it can be key to outspend competitors out of business.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

It does, even MS is aware of it, but not only they do not care, they know how it can be key to outspend competitors out of business.

Microsoft know that Gamepass makes $70 games feel like $15 games? That's a wild claim to be making. I can't believe it. I am sorry, but you have at some point lost connection with reality.

 

[Banjo64]

Microsoft know that Gamepass makes $70 games feel like $15 games? That's a wild claim to be making. I can't believe it. I am sorry, but you have at some point lost connection with reality.

Redfall was a $70 game that felt like a $5 game. And Microsoft sanctioned its release.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Well Jimbo, it is easy to have that after they assumed all the risks and started the market for such service, buy you guys are used to doing that.

To be fair EA was first. Actually no it may have been GameTap or Online can't remember which. But EA started the modern generation with Origin Access.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Redfall was a $70 game that felt like a $5 game. And Microsoft sanctioned its release.

Nobody is going to defend Redfall, but the way it was created or released had nothing specifically to do with Gamepass, not least because it predated being a first party release.

But well done.

 

[Banjo64]

Nobody is going to defend Redfall, but the way it was created or released had nothing specifically to do with Gamepass, not least because it predated being a first party release.

Strange POV IMO, considering Microsoft set the price for the game, Microsoft put it on Game Pass and Microsoft had the final say on realising the game in the state it was in.

 

[L*][*N*K]

To be fair EA was first. Actually no it may have been GameTap or Online can't remember which. But EA started the modern generation with Origin Access.

It is not the moon landing, Microsoft has taken way too much risks especially with the day 1 games

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I don't disagree with some points Jim makes, but hard to take him seriously when PS+ Premium is a giant scam.(and it just increased even more in price.). Rarely are classics actually added, and I believe zero PS2 games have been added since the first batch released at the launch of the tier.

Honestly, all these services are a scam.

If you're a longtime playstation fan/owner, I don't even see why you would ever buy anything but the basic Plus subscription. And that's only because of paywalled multiplayer.

 

[Surfheart]

I just cancelled my Plus sub that has been active since day one what the fuck do you think about that Jimbo!

 

[aygomyownroad]

I love gamepass, it lets me play games I would never have bought otherwise (looking at you Sea of Stars, Cities Skylines and Eastward), and saves a lot of money on new games letting e try them (Starfield for example).

If it wasn't for these savings I wouldn't be able to buy PS5 games so I think Ryan should be thankful in that respect as my games are usually bought for the PS5 over Xbox

 

[8BiTw0LF]

The future is F2P live service games, Jim is right

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The future is F2P live service games, Jim is right

The first one of many seems to be the new Helldivers 2, and the overall feel is that it looks really tempting. I'm gonna preorder the $60 version (base is $40). Concord is also in the way, but we really don't know much about it. Firesprite made something for Star Citizen previously, so waiting to see what's their next move.

They gonna throw many FPS games and see what sticks. I would love a realistic setup like SOCOM.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

The first one of many seems to be the new Helldivers 2, and the overall feel is that it looks really tempting. I'm gonna preorder the $60 version (base is $40). Concord is also in the way, but we really don't know much about it. Firesprite made something for Star Citizen previously, so waiting to see what's their next move.

They gonna throw many FPS games and see what sticks. I would love a realistic setup like SOCOM.

They should do another M.A.G. or that rumored Killzone game a la Battlefield.

Or both.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

They should do another M.A.G. or that rumored Killzone game a la Battlefield.

Or both.

Never played MAG, but it looks fire when seen gameplay of it a year ago on youtube! It would be wonderful to have it as a mass war game.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Never played MAG, but it looks fire when seen gameplay of it a year ago on youtube! It would be wonderful to have it as a mass war game.

It had it's issues, but I loved it. Too bad they closed Zipper.

I wonder which studios they own that could actually pull off great live service franchises.
All I could see atm is Bungie. We'll be getting Horizon mp and Factions, but outside of that?

Probably why they plan to heavily invest in live services for FY25. I assume that includes possible acquisitions and hiring of experienced developers and such?

 

[DAHGAMING]

Jim Ryan cant wait to play COD on hes Xbox using gamepass.

 

[itshutton]

Anyone else just excited he mentioned PlayStation Home???

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It had it's issues, but I loved it. Too bad they closed Zipper.

I wonder which studios they own that could actually pull off great live service franchises.
All I could see atm is Bungie. We'll be getting Horizon mp and Factions, but outside of that?

Probably why they plan to heavily invest in live services for FY25. I assume that includes possible acquisitions and hiring of experienced developers and such?

+ Concord + Helldivers 2. I think they cancelled the game by Deviation Games? I think the closer we get to the the more info. We're yet to see more footage of Concord.

Anyone else just excited he mentioned PlayStation Home???

Had hundreds of hours on that! Wonderful platform.

 

[RickMasters]

Redfall was a $70 game that felt like a $5 game. And Microsoft sanctioned its release.

And everybody who could be bothered played it through their subs and never paid 70 dollars let alone 5 for it. What’s your point?


We all know the game sucked. Even MS apparently. Talk about beating a dead horse…..


We’ve all moved on to starfield and are looking forward to forza, with, hellblade 2 and stalker 2 just around the corner…. Why are you stuck in April? We know redfall sucked. Arkane feel about it as the devs. They will make a better game to their usual high quality next time round. some other games that came out this year and nobody is getting hung up on those. Shit happens sometimes . I doubt typo even one an Xbox let alone played the game so chill… you didn’t have to suffer even seeing it on your dashboard, did ya?…. Moving on…..

 

[RickMasters]

They should do another M.A.G. or that rumored Killzone game a la Battlefield.

Or both.

Battle M.A.G zone!

 

[Banjo64]

And everybody who could be bothered played it through their subs and never paid 70 dollars let alone 5 for it. What’s your point?


We all know the game sucked. Even MS apparently. Talk about beating a dead horse…..


We’ve all moved on to starfield and are looking forward to forza, with, hellblade 2 and stalker 2 just around the corner…. Why are you stuck in April? We know redfall sucked. Arkane feel about it as the devs. They will make a better game to their usual high quality next time round. some other games that came out this year and nobody is getting hung up on those. Shit happens sometimes . I doubt typo even one an Xbox let alone played the game so chill… you didn’t have to suffer even seeing it on your dashboard, did ya?…. Moving on…..

Just addressing the poster who said Microsoft won’t end up treating $70 games as though they are only worth $15. It’s already happened, several times.

Chill yo self holmie.

 

[damiank]

Cancelled my Premium sub when they increased the price, just not worth it for me anymore when the delays makes me buy the games anyway, it’s a service for LTTP gamers.

So you had, say, 6 months of sub and you cancelled that because they increased price?

 

[Killjoy-NL]

Battle M.A.G zone!

That game would be GOAT

 

[ClosBSAS]

not really. i paid an entire year for ps plus and that shit hasnt given me a single good game. bought a ps5 for ff16, sold it already...come on jim, you gotta try harder.

 

[Negotiator101]

You know what I don't think it matters to Gaf if it's Spencer or Ryan the majority hate both I love it.

 

[Negotiator101]

Huh? The problem isn't 60 or 70 bucks, the problem is lack of discount when virtually no one buys this game anymore. If you want to try this game you're forced to sub to Gamepass.



See? That is the problem. If Gamepass didn't exist, Redfall would be already bargain bin game.

Why is it selling for cheap good? The developer gains very little from that. At least with Gamepass the game could get a decent player count so more incentive to keep updating the game to improve it.

 

[Fess]

So you had, say, 6 months of sub and you cancelled that because they increased price?

Kinda, yeah. Cheap prepaid sub from when they launched the new PS+, similar to the cheap Gamepass subs. Was a thread about it when it happened, was possible to stack PS Now subs and convert to PS+ Premium, ended in a monthly cost at roughly $5. The thought of going back to regular subscription fee soon was bad enough but the new price was just way too much.

 

[NickFire]

Jim may or may not be wrong when he opines on MS efforts. But he's full of crap when he says they have a meaningful subscription service. If they dropped the paid online requirement most of PS+ customers would drop PS+ in a heartbeat.