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[BocoDragon]

He's not a kid, and he's not in junior high. He's a grown man now deeply involved in politics.

Well that's debateable

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt as an individual. Im saying that the affectation of an iron cross fits right in with his brand as a provactive dickwad. Calling him a Nazi has no dismissive effect on him, and actually plays into the reason why he'd wear such an item in the first place. To get a rise out of people. He loves it. He'd love triggering people who think he's literally a nazi.

At this point, I actually don't think he's a white supremacist. If evidence comes along I wouldn't be surprised, but it's not factual now. He's a western culture supremacist. That is his actual public position. Defeat that. It's enough.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

He loves it. He's love triggering people who think he's literally a nazi.

That's fine. If a grown man, working in politics when he's not branding himself tells me "look at this, I'm wearing Nazi regalia to "trigger"", then Imma call him a Nazi. Not like he didn't earn that.

Just to make you feel better about it, if someone's gonna sport a swastika flag as a neogaf avatar, I'd happily do the same. Even if he just wants to "trigger" people.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well that's debateable

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt as an individual. Im saying that the affectation of an iron cross fits right in with his brand as a provactive dickwad. Calling him a Nazi has no dismissive effect on him, and actually plays into the reason why he'd wear such an item in the first place. To get a rise out of people. He loves it. He'd love triggering people who think he's literally a nazi.

At this point, I actually don't think he's a white supremacist. If evidence comes along I wouldn't be surprised, but it's not factual now. He's a western culture supremacist. That is his actual public position. Defeat that. It's enough.

Why the hell of all people would Milo get the benefit of the doubt?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well that's debateable

I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt as an individual. Im saying that the affectation of an iron cross fits right in with his brand as a provactive dickwad. Calling him a Nazi has no dismissive effect on him, and actually plays into the reason why he'd wear such an item in the first place. To get a rise out of people. He loves it. He'd love triggering people who think he's literally a nazi.

At this point, I actually don't think he's a white supremacist. If evidence comes along I wouldn't be surprised, but it's not factual now. He's a western culture supremacist. That is his actual public position. Defeat that. It's enough.

Man, by the end of the month Milo is going to have more "liberal" support than alt-right support

 

[BocoDragon]

That's fine. If a grown man, working in politics when he's not branding himself tells me "look at this, I'm wearing Nazi regalia to "trigger"", then Imma call him a Nazi. Not like he didn't earn that.

I do get that.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the suspicion of it (he does, as you say).

I just don't think it's necessarily true (I don't think it's the accurate description of what is his true ethos and why people are attracted to him) and I don't think it has any effect to actually argue against him and defeat him.

 

[kadotsu]

Why the hell of all people would Milo get the benefit of the doubt?

The dumb argument that is currently proposed is that he is primary goal is trolling and anti semitism, misogyny and white supremacy are mere tools, so he isn't a neo-nazi. For me that is like a closeted gay man saying sucking dick is just the most effective way to do his breathing exercise.

 

[BocoDragon]

Man, by the end of the month Milo is going to have more "liberal" support than alt-right support

TrumpWrong.gif

I'm trying to clear away false charactures of Milo so that people can actually see what his role and message are to culture at large, so that he can actually be defeated for what he really stands for.

I think this "he's just a Nazi" dismissal is liberals driving into the ditch. It's completely ineffectual.

Unless you have evidence of him espousing literal Nazi doctrine, the "he's a Nazi" complaint is a self-satisfying piece of sky. It does more harm than good because it does nothing at all.

Why the hell of all people would Milo get the benefit of the doubt?

He wouldn't. I said I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm arguing for an accurate description of the menace.

 

[Jackpot]

So everything people warned would happen, happened.

Milo is just a white supremacist who dedicates his life to bullying and spreading anti-Semitic,sexist and racist views, who happens to wear German war memorabilia, names himself after a composer who was essentially used to provide the audio for the Nazi movement.

But not a Nazi.

Don't call him a Nazi.

Because reasons.

Because some posters seem to think calling someone a Nazi is worse than being a Nazi.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

TrumpWrong.gif

I'm trying to clear away false charactures of Milo so that people can actually see what his role and message are to culture at large, so that he can actually be defeated for what he really stands for.

I think this "he's just a Nazi" dismissal is liberals driving into the ditch. It's completely ineffectual.

Unless you have evidence of him espousing literal Nazi doctrine, the "he's a Nazi" complaint is a self-satisfying piece of sky. It does more harm than good because it does nothing at all.

I don't care about labeling him a Nazi, but he is a white supremacist which you seem to have trouble acknowledging. "Western culture supremacist" doesn't even make sense because non-white culture has been part of western culture for centuries. White supremacist is succinct, familiar, and applies to Milo.

Would you be this protective of an anti-white "troll"?

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

What I hate about Milo is that whenever he's interviewed he spins every opinion he has. He can go on Twitter and say "Black people should die", and then he won't even acknowledge it when questioned. With idiots like Fred Phelps you at least knew who they were no matter where you got your information, but people like Milo you have to investigate from top to bottom to understand how much hatred they carry.

It's scary. A co-worker sent me a Milo post on Facebook, and then it turns out the guy had no idea about the horrible shit Milo says and does. My co-worker is a very progressive guy, so he was appalled when he really found out who Milo is.

Because that how people like Milo work. They're entire intention is to rile people up and then flip it around back on them. He's an instigator and agitator.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Maher was tougher on the guy who refused to partake in this Milo circus than he was on Milo

“Liberals will continue to lose elections as long as they follow the example of people like Mr. Scahill whose views veer into fantasy and away from bedrock liberal principles like equality of women, respect for minorities, separation of religion and state, and free speech,” Maher said in a statement, according to Entertainment Weekly. “If Mr. Yiannopoulos is indeed the monster Scahill claims — and he might be — nothing could serve the liberal cause better than having him exposed on Friday night.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...yiannopoulos-booking-after-panelist-boycotts/

Scahill: I won't partake in platforming a bigot.

Maher: You living in a fantasy world and clearly aren't dedicated to respecting minorities and other liberal values.

Milo: Trans women are sexually confused men who are more likely to be sexual predators than anyone else and have to be kept out of bathrooms to protect women and girls!

Maher: Sounds reasonable

 

[Jackpot]

I think this "he's just a Nazi" dismissal is liberals driving into the ditch. It's completely ineffectual.

Unless you have evidence of him espousing literal Nazi doctrine, the "he's a Nazi" complaint is a self-satisfying piece of sky. It does more harm than good because it does nothing at all.

oh ffs. If your criteria for being a Nazi can only be him dressing in SS uniforms and saying "I'm a Nazi" then you're simply being disingenuous. A variant of "I admit racism happens but will strenuously deny incident XYZ was racist"

On top of being a homophobic, transphobic, racist, misogynist bigot, which align quite nicely with Nazi idealogy, dude used to call himself Milo Wagner (Wagner was a famous antisemite composer), took photos of himself with Hitler books, wore an iron cross which is popular with neo-nazis, and writes some pretty wank antisemitic poetry at times. Called a Jewish Buzzfeed writer "thick as pig shit media jew". Oh, and Holocaust memes are the best!

All those combined are a bit suspect, but I'm not going to call him a Nazi because some people here get triggered that I'm not being politically correct

.

 

[Branduil]

Milo is alot of things but he is not a nazi. Please stop referring to him as one.

Are you offended by me accurately calling him a Nazi?

 

[BocoDragon]

I don't care about labeling him a Nazi, but he is a white supremacist which you seem to have trouble acknowledging. "Western culture supremacist" doesn't even make sense because non-white culture has been part of western culture for centuries. White supremacist is succinct, familiar, and applies to Milo.

Would you be this protective of an anti-white "troll"?

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if internally he equates western culture with white culture. But that's purely your conjecture (and some others), and doesn't address his broad appeal to people to have no interest in white supremacy.

If we're playing conjecture... I think Milo as a Catholic far more equates western culture with the superiority of Catholic/Christian identity, and not "race". I think he (like Steve Bannon) is more of a defender of the superiority of Christendom versus all other challengers to civilization (ie Islam).

At this point I think Milo would be totally okay with all non-whites who would bend their knee to western/Catholic society. Which is another kind of puerile. But that's not the same as a Nazi/KKK ethos at all.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Wait now we can't even call Steve fucking Bannon a white supremacist?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

The guy who likes Hitler and wears Nazi symbols can't be a Nazi because he didn't participate in WWII, duh.

 

[BocoDragon]

Wait now we can't even call Steve fucking Bannon a white supremacist?

I've never seen it established that he is, and I've studied the man. Ask Ben Shapiro, who used to work with Bannon at Breitbart, had a falling out with Bannon, now hates Bannon... but he thinks the idea of him as a "white supremacist" is a characture.

Both Bannon and Milo seem quite the same to me.. western culture supremacists, defenders of "Christendom", neo-Crusaders, basically lazily dismissed as white supremacists with no evidence since Trump won.

I'm amenable to evidence otherwise. The Milo stuff posted above just seems like his schtick, hard to take seriously... but Bannon is straight faced. He will be easier to pin white supremacy on.

 

[neoanarch]

oh ffs. If your criteria for being a Nazi can only be him dressing in SS uniforms and saying "I'm a Nazi" then you're simply being disingenuous. A variant of "I admit racism happens but will strenuously deny incident XYZ was racist"

.

Wow anyone who sees that and still hesitates to call him a Nazi might as well literally hide their head in the sand.

 

[deli2000]

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if internally he equates western culture with white culture. But that's purely your conjecture (and some others), and doesn't address his broad appeal to people to have no interest in white supremacy.

If we're playing conjecture... I think Milo as a Catholic far more equates western culture with the superiority of Catholic/Christian identity, and not "race". I think he (like Steve Bannon) is more of a defender of the superiority of Christendom versus all other challengers to civilization (ie Islam).

At this point I think Milo would be totally okay with all non-whites who would bend their knee to western/Catholic society. Which is another kind of puerile. But that's not the same as a Nazi/KKK ethos at all.

 

[nelsonroyale]

He seems like the Boris Johnson of the Gay Community. All humorous, shallow small talk, to hide a cunning, disturbed mind. I don't think he is as funny or as clever as Johnson though (who I still think is a simply clever idiot).

 

[BocoDragon]

Nope. You're being very lazy. This meme doesn't even apply to what I said.

Milo and Bannon are villains in my view, and I am saying that you're describing their villainy inaccurately. I want you to describe what they stand for accurately so you can actually hope to defeat them. "nazi" and "white supremacist" are misnomers that will lead you in the wrong direction.

If the pejorative used about them was "Crusader", I'd think it more accurate. They think western culture is the righteous player against hostile Others.

 

[Gattsu25]

Nope.

The detail here that gives me hope is that the democrats' view of the economy didn't immediately tank. Shows that they are still basing their opinions on facts.

 

[APF]

I've never seen it established that he is, and I've studied the man. Ask Ben Shapiro

Hmm how did Shapiro characterize Milo?


With that said, as I wrote at The Washington Post in August, Bannon has openly embraced the racist and anti-Semitic alt-right – he called his Breitbart “the platform of the alt-right.” Milo Yiannopoulos, the star writer at the site, is an alt-right popularizer, even as he continuously declares with a wink that he’s not a member. [...] The alt-right, in a nutshell, believes that Western culture is inseparable from European ethnicity.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Milo's 'air head' schtick is just a tool he uses to coat his revolting and 'attention grabbing' opinions in some saccharine. He seems to be one of those people who is desperate for attention and controversy. Self loating beneath the surface no doubt.

Maher is like the Jerry Springer of interviewers...Not a very good debater and not particularly eloquent.

 

[Lime]

It's so fucked up that fascism and nazism are these ahistorical labels that are somehow some fantastical and illusory things. I read this thing by Wark the other day and it's fitting to all those delusional people who think that nazis are some sort of aberration and rarity:

McKenzie Wark: It's curious that the political categories of liberal, conservative and so forth are treated as trans-historical, but you are not supposed to use the category of fascism outside of a specific historical context. There are self described neoconservatives, and even supposed Marxists have taken the neoliberals at their word and used their choice of name without much reflection. But somehow there's resistance to talking about fascism outside of its historical context. I have often been waved off as hysterical for wanting to talk about it as a living, present term. Even if it is admitted to the contemporary lexicon, it is treated as something exceptional.

http://cultureandcommunication.org/galloway/american-fascism

 

[Sianos]

Alright, so he got to speak and participate in one of those "rational debates" - you know, a "debate" being when you just spew transphobic bullshit and get told your views are reasonable - but now the problem is we're being too judgemental of Milo? Wow, who could have seen this twist coming?

Now that we've ensured Milo gets to spew his hate unabated, maybe let's put in work on coming up with effective counterargument against it? I would assume people would be just as enthusiastic about that, right?

 

[Mesousa]

The people horrified he compared Milo to Hitchens really must be living the past through rose-colored glasses, or simply too young to remember the persona Hitchens had with the Media.

I am old enough to remember him going on American TV, before they had even fully scraped Princess Diana off the tunnel walls, and basically calling her a gold digging tart. He was an edge-lord in the same vein as the Milo character, and both got away with it because they have personalities that charm people.

 

[BocoDragon]

Hmm how did Shapiro characterize Milo?


With that said, as I wrote at The Washington Post in August, Bannon has openly embraced the racist and anti-Semitic alt-right – he called his Breitbart “the platform of the alt-right.” Milo Yiannopoulos, the star writer at the site, is an alt-right popularizer, even as he continuously declares with a wink that he’s not a member. [...] The alt-right, in a nutshell, believes that Western culture is inseparable from European ethnicity.

That's not really a condemnation of Milo so much as the alt-right as a whole. And we should all know by now that the alt-right is a coalition of diverse fringe right wing interests, some of who are pure racists and some of whom are not (but are deplorable by nature of trevalling with racists to further their cause).

This statement just as much impugns Bannon, who Shaprio also specifically said is not a white supremacist.

I have no problem with condemning Milo and Bannon for being okay with capitalizing on having a segment of their audience that is pure racist. But that's an altogether more nuanced claim than saying that they are just forwarding Nazi/white supremacy ideology, when they aren't, so the critique won't stick.

It's so fucked up that fascism and nazism are these ahistorical labels that are somehow some fantastical and illusory things. I read this thing by Wark the other day and it's fitting to all those delusional people who think that nazis are some sort of aberration and rarity:



http://cultureandcommunication.org/galloway/american-fascism

Facism is a different word than Nazism. I have no problem saying that Trump himself is a fascist (appealing to a golden past by using strongman tactics to persecute hated outsiders responsible). Bannon and Milo in the fascist boat? Sure, could be!

But Nazism implies ethnic superiority ideology, which isn't necessarily established as a position for any of these men.

 

[Infinite]

Nope. You're being very lazy. This meme doesn't even apply to what I said.

Milo and Bannon are villains in my view, and I am saying that you're describing their villainy inaccurately. I want you to describe what they stand for accurately so you can actually hope to defeat them. "nazi" and "white supremacist" are misnomers that will lead you in the wrong direction.

If the pejorative used about them was "Crusader", I'd think it more accurate. They think western culture is the righteous player against hostile Others.

Not convinced you actually want that. You spent most of your time here defending Milo from being mislabeled for nothing other than pedantry than you have condemning him (and Maher) for what he demonstrated in this interview. You're woefully misguided and you're wasting everyone's time. Your "concern" is not needed, friend.

 

[TheOddOne]

“It’s just a joke, bro!” and “There are worst things in the world to complain about!” are terrible arguments to justify narrow minded views that have had real world consequences.

 

[BocoDragon]

Not convinced you actually want that. You spent most of your time here defending Milo from being mislabeled for nothing other than pedantry than you have condemning him (and Maher) for what he demonstrated in this interview. You're woefully misguided and you're wasting everyone's time. Your "concern" is not needed, friend.

Sanctimoniously question my motives all you want, it's all there in my posts:

Milo is a problem. "Nazi/white supremacy" mislabels the problem.

 

[samn]

Not convinced you actually want that. You spent most of your time here defending Milo from being mislabeled for nothing other than pedantry than you have condemning him (and Maher) for what he demonstrated in this interview. You're woefully misguided and you're wasting everyone's time. Your "concern" is not needed, friend.

Why bother condemning him when you're all doing that just fine by yourselves. Makes sense to focus on the points where you disagree then repeat the obvious/what's already been said.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Sanctimoniously question my motives all you want, it's all there in my posts:

Milo is a problem. "Nazi/white supremacy" mislabels the problem.

Would you also say that Breitbart isn't a white supremacy website?

 

[MTE]

I haven't read the thread, but just saw the episode.

I was dismayed how Bill let Milo run the interview and be kept off track.

Also, Milo's comments about how it's just "words on the internet" is absolute bullshit. The Internet is a large part of peoples' lives, and western society these days. Personal attacks on the internet, at least to young people, are effectively the same as anything done in the "real world".

 

[APF]

That's not really a condemnation of Milo so much as the alt-right as a whole.

In the same breath he describes Milo as the star Bannon used to popularize the alt-right on Breitbart, and specifically says he "winks" about not being a member eg to get people like you mired in handwringing semantic debates.

And we should all know by now that the alt-right is a coalition of diverse fringe right wing interests, some of who are pure racists and some of whom are not (but are deplorable by nature of trevalling with racists to further their cause).

I mean, your source explicitly details what the alt-right is, and if it's not "white" supremacy it's "ethnocultural supremacy" that happens to be white.

This statement just as much impugns Bannon, who Shaprio also specifically said is not a white supremacist.

Well what he actually says is that he popularizes and enables them, is celebrated by them, and happens to have a mission that's 100% inline with their goals and beliefs, but he may or may not have different internal reasons for doing so that are more about his personal will to power. It's a distinction but not one that's a meaningful difference.

I have no problem with condemning Milo and Bannon for being okay with capitalizing on having a segment of their audience that is pure racist.

But that's not what your source did, he stuck Milo squarely in the box but as trying to dance around his actual allegiance. The critique sticks. It sticks like fucking superglue.

 

[BocoDragon]

Would you also say that Breitbart isn't a white supremacy website?

I would say it is technically not. It's visciously right wing, with a western superiority complex, denying the liberal view that ethnic minority disadvantage is the fault of anyone but themselves. But technically it is not ethnic supremacist. They'd love a token gay Jew to write for them, for one thing

I hate it, if that's what you're asking.

Stormfront is a white supremacy website.

 

[Infinite]

Sanctimoniously question my motives all you want, it's all there in my posts:

Milo is a problem. "Nazi/white supremacy" mislabels the problem.

You haven't really gave a good explaining why that distinction is important and why it actually matters. For what can see, this Brietbart mother fucker is definitely an enabler of nazism and white supremacy especially, even if you feel the label cannot or should not be applied to him. Therefore this debate you're having seems like a massive waste of time to me and amounts to nothing more than pedantry. It's like you're arguing if some one is a really a racists when they did something racists when were just talking about the impact of their action not them as a person beyond that. This is the wrong hill to die on, friend.

 

[nelsonroyale]

His assertion that 'if you don't show up to debate, you lose' is only relevant so far as debate is a game to score points. Taking it back into the real world, Milos arguments and articulation teen angst grade stuff. He doesn't say anything new, he just puts his own spangly veneer on it. He has some skill with words, or at least controlling the flow of discourse with his small talk and camp delivery, but the content is easy to see and recognise for what it is - appeals to 'abstract' and ill defined concepts such as free speech, to legitimise hateful positions. The most hateful things he says he usually delivers as small asides to slip them under the radar.

Again, I honestly think when it comes down to it this guy has a craving for fame/infamy, and is deeply confused and hateful. He probably needs to be sectioned, and genuine affection. As it is right now, he is a collosal arse.

 

[Lkr]

I was hoping to see Maher wipe the floor with him, sad it didn't happen
Does milo legit have any friends? He seems to hate literally everyone for no reason

 

[The Pope]

Just watched both the interview and the unwatchable overtime. Milo is such an intention whore. He is like a living contradiction. I agree with his point that if you dont show up to a debate you lose but goddamn if he could remain coherant and stop being so fucking obnoxious maybe someone would actually be able to debate him. However Milo knows if this was the case his arguments and whole act would crumble.

Hitchens would have destroyed this guy.

 

[ElectricThunder]

Maher knew better, he's tied to Vice's damn show, and THIS was the direction they went with...OT folks pitching in withstanding? Pretty much inviting him back to become a repeat guest even right at the end of the interview there?

Single worst calculated move in the show's history.

 

[Tarydax]

If a movement can't win a debate with someone like Milo, it deserves to lose.

Maher gave Milo a platform and normalized him. That's when he lost. There's no debating people like him.

If Maher were smart, he would have denied Milo that platform.

 

[Lime]

But Nazism implies ethnic superiority ideology, which isn't necessarily established as a position for any of these men.

And you seriously don't think this applies to Milo and his ethno-nationalism (and the fact that he has no trouble working with people who openly support these views?)?

BocoDragon, seriously, you need to realize what you're doing right now in terms of concern trolling about whether or not Milo is a fucking nazi. You can see all of his actions, all of his statements, all of his bigotry, and it should be clear that he's a transphobic, racist, misogynistic shithole who do violence to other people.

 

[Lime]

Milo is going to get eviscerated they said. Meanwhile:

 

[excelsiorlef]

Needless to say Bill Maher just reminded us why he's solidly in the Jonathan Chait level of liberals.... you know the ones you can't count on to be there when things get really real.

It is laughable after tonight that Maher will still call himself part of the resistance.

 

[GlenChivas]

Came in hoping to see some Larry Wilmore gifs. Got people debating over whether or not he classifies as a Nazi.

Why does it matter if the dude is or isn't a Nazi?

He's a smug asshole. That's enough for me.

 

[Oxn]

Milo is going to get eviscerated they said. Meanwhile:

No one said that lol.

 

[BocoDragon]

In the same breath he describes Milo as the star Bannon used to popularize the alt-right on Breitbart, and specifically says he "winks" about not being a member eg to get people like you mired in handwringing semantic debates.

Well yes, I agree, with the alt-right being a coalition of diverse interests hard to pin down, we get dragged into semantic debates.

I'm being precise to combat this. The people who are saying "it's just Nazis!" are not describing the accuracy of the situation at all, and leave themselves vulnuarable from people who don't encounter this face of the alt-right. And that's playing into the whole defence strategy of the alt-right (ideological deniability)

If many people view this flippant label of "they're all nazis" label as a silly characature, then that's an ongoing invitation for another person to go on national TV and describe the "hysterical left" who have gone off the deep end and don't get what's really going on. Not that this would happen... (yesterday... wink wink)

The more I am honest and educate others that, actually, the alt-right scene is diverse and it's not simplly "Nazis", the more I think culture at large will be able to actually grapple with the real scope of the problem, and defeat it.

I mean, your source explicitly details what the alt-right is, and if it's not "white" supremacy it's "ethnocultural supremacy" that happens to be white.

"My source" (Ben Shapiro for those tuning in) also emphatically thinks the characterization of this Bannon/Milo phenomenon as "white supremacy" is leftism gone mad. Now, he is a right winger who once worked for a kinder earlier incarnation of Breitbart, but take the point that there is a mislabelling going on that doesn't help us liberals deal with the problem.

But that's not what your source did, he stuck Milo squarely in the box but as trying to dance around his actual allegiance. The critique sticks. It sticks like fucking superglue.

The "alt-right uses deplorable racist audiences" fact doesn't stick in terms of

1. Describing what Milo actually believes

2. Describing what Milo actually says and has become popular for

3. Describing how to defeat Milo in the public sphere of opinion

"Nazi/white supremacist" label does fuck all to defeat Milo. If there are smoking guns on this point, by all means, we should all bring them forward.. but if it just serves as a liberal pat on the back it's useless.

 

[Xater]

Not surprised this turned into a shit show. Maher is also an insufferable asshole.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

So Bill is one of those tolerate my intolerance people?