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[gohepcat]

Terminology.




Okay... Not too many people have seen others completely lose their shit with a gun in their hand. I have.

Yea. I haven't...'cause I try not to live in gun crazy shitholes.

It makes me sad to think the people defending this stuff have never lived in a place were guns are simply not around and crime is super low.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I imagine this guy is a stone's throw away from being a serial killer, but too soft to just go out into the night and attack random victims unprovoked. There has to be people out there like that.

He sat there waiting for an encounter he new was coming (and seemingly failed to report prior burglaries) and then mutilated some teenagers after they already were incapacitated.

Also, 64 is not all crazy old man territory yet. So there isn't that.

 

[travisbickle]

A message from local news stories as well. You'd think that with all the fear mongering that comes from people that break into a house people would actually stop doing it.

It's like there's no correlation between the risk of death and the want of a burglar...it's like they have no choice?

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

I read it as the girl (Kifer) laughed, not the shooter. (Smith)

She probably laughed out of shock, or maybe shes just hard as hell. edit* Oh didnt know she was a drug addict, couldve been that

Oh, you're right. Reading comprehension fail. Guess the guy may not have been as full on psychotic as I perceived. He still went overboard, obviously.

I wouldn't want to be a jury member in this case, that's for sure. Had he simply shot them each once, they probably would have still died and it would have been justifiable. Unloading on them like you're the fucking Terminator, especially at close range where at that point he can tell they are no longer armed or a threat makes it pretty fucked up and seems like murder to me.

It's like there's no correlation between the risk of death and the want of a burglar...it's like they have no choice?

How did they not have a choice? It's more like people who want to do certain things convince themselves the fucked up things that happen to others can't possibly happen to them. No drug addict ever thinks they're going to die of an overdose, no drunk driver thinks they're going to smash their car into a tree at a 100 MPH, and no burglar thinks they're hitting the house with an armed and ready home owner. They all had choices, but chose to be delusional about the risks.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Guy doesn't have a chance to ever see the outside of whatever prison he's going to be living in for the rest of his life.

 

[greepoman]

I am a gun owner who would shoot anyone who came into my house, and think comments about firing warning shots or shooting someone in the shoulder are pretty dumb.

I can sympathize with wanting to thwart burglars but man people with itchy trigger fingers scare me too. Reminds me of a guy in my town not long ago who shot his wife when she came home early to surprise him cause he thought she was a burglar. Here's some of the situations me and my family have experienced which could've went the same way: Kids playing a prank, confused elderly person, drunk person who accidentally opens wrong door...shoot first ask questions later right?

 

[Wolfe]

Waiting a day to turn yourself in for killing two teenagers in your own home isn't some remarkably outrageous thing after what appears to be a psychotic episode.

Dude probably will never be right in the head again...

Sounds like he wasn't right in the head to begin with.

 

[scar tissue]

He didn't kill them in self defense, he executed them. Fucking psychopath, I hope he rots in jail.

The kids weren't saints or anything, but they didn't deserve to die either. Especially not after he had already wounded them. WTF man.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Alright. I wanted to take some time to think about this before I commented.

First. I don't feel bad for the burglars. Don't want to risk getting shot? Don't break into someone's home. Period. I don't like getting shot. I try my best not to put myself in scenarios that have a known likelihood to increase my odds of getting shot. This includes but is not limited to:

-Starting fistfights
-Burglary
-Home Invasion
-Assault
-Gang Activity

Alright. Now that I've gotten my inner self-defender out of the way I'll say that this scenario as I've read it stopped being a self defense situation and transitioned into a murder.

He shot them both *after* he incapacitated them and stopped the threat. That's a no-no. If he had shot them to stop them and they happened to have died right them...then tough shit for them. But that's not what happened. He stopped the threat and then after the fact finished em off. That combined with waiting an entire fucking day to contact authorities and then combined with bagging and moving the bodies?

This guy is going away. And he should go away. For a very very very long time.

What a fucking idiot.

 

[The Culture Vulture]

The more I read about this the more I tend to think even the first shots were unjustifiable.

He heard an intruded and made no attempt to contact the police, instead he armed himself found a good shooting position and fired as soon as he saw a good center mass target. He gave no warning before shooting. Perhaps he thought the intruder could be armed but even the first shots along with his testimony seem like he wanted the opportunity to kill.

 

[Wool]

I live in the area and this has been all over the news. It sounds like he was a normal guy who got carried away with anger. He said over the last couple years there have been 8 break ins at his house, and just last month he had ~$10000 worth of guns and cash stolen.

The only thing I think he was really in the wrong about was waiting a day to call the police. He claimed that he didn't want to bother them on Thanksgiving, but that is an awful excuse.

Anyway, I don't think he has a criminal history, and his neighbor even went to the press to defend him. The guy just wanted to be left alone. I don't think the burglars deserved to be killed, but when someone breaks into your house to steal things how do you know what they're going to do?

I have no sympathy for the burglars, but I do feel bad for the families.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The more I read about this the more I tend to think even the first shots were unjustifiable.

He heard an intruded and made no attempt to contact the police, instead he armed himself found a good shooting position and fired as soon as he saw a good center mass target. He gave no warning before shooting. Perhaps he thought the intruder could be armed but even the first shots along with his testimony seem like he wanted the opportunity to kill.

Possibly. But no one in their home is under any legal obligation to give a verbal warning or fire a warning shot or retreat from the home and call authorities from safety.

None of which matters considering his actions AFTER the criminals were incapacitated. Once the threat is stopped you stop shooting. He didn't. He should go to jail. I'm all for home defense but this wasn't that after he double tapped dude for the kill shot.

 

[Cat Party]

The more I read about this the more I tend to think even the first shots were unjustifiable.

He heard an intruded and made no attempt to contact the police, instead he armed himself found a good shooting position and fired as soon as he saw a good center mass target. He gave no warning before shooting. Perhaps he thought the intruder could be armed but even the first shots along with his testimony seem like he wanted the opportunity to kill.

I agree with you. He'd still probably escape liability if he only fired the one shot, benefit of the doubt and all, but I have no doubt that this guy wanted to shoot someone.

 

[Zoe]

I live in the area and this has been all over the news. It sounds like he was a normal guy who got carried away with anger. He said over the last couple years there have been 8 break ins at his house, and just last month he had ~$10000 worth of guns and cash stolen.

The only thing I think he was really in the wrong about was waiting a day to call the police. He claimed that he didn't want to bother them on Thanksgiving, but that is an awful excuse.

Anyway, I don't think he has a criminal history, and his neighbor even went to the press to defend him. The guy just wanted to be left alone. I don't think the burglars deserved to be killed, but when someone breaks into your house to steal things how do you know what they're going to do?

I have no sympathy for the burglars, but I do feel bad for the families.

Only thing? No. There's already precedent that shooting after incapacitating is murder.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Dude went into overkill mode.

IDK though, if I just shot someone and then their partner was still advancing I would ask questions later.

Who the hell would keep exploring a house you are robbing if you hear gunshots? Unless the dude was armed and she thought he shot the owner, or she was completely out of her mind on drugs.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I agree with you. He'd still probably escape liability if he only fired the one shot, benefit of the doubt and all, but I have no doubt that this guy wanted to shoot someone.

He has every right to shoot two people breaking into his house. What he doesn't have the right to do is finish them off once the threat was stopped. Or move the bodies. Or don't call police.

Dude went into overkill mode.

IDK though, if I just shot someone and then their partner was still advancing I would ask questions later.

Who the hell would keep exploring a house you are robbing if you hear gunshots? Unless the dude was armed and she thought he shot the owner, or she was completely out of her mind on drugs.

Pill addicts looking for a fix is NOTHING to fuck with. But when you shoot someone and they're down: Stop.

 

[Cat Party]

He has every right to shoot two people breaking into his house.

Not necessarily.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

...damn they tried to rob a nut job, school of hard knocks. Should be a conviction if he admitted to all that

 

[Kinyou]

I could even imagine that they girl talked to him before he shot her when she walked down. It seems so weird to imagine that she'd watch/hear her cousin getting shot and then just goes down the same stairs a few minutes later. It would make more sense for someone in that situation to jump out of a window or to talk to the guy with the gun.

 

[The Culture Vulture]

He has every right to shoot two people breaking into his house.

Not necessarily...

Minnesota law allows a homeowner to use deadly force on an intruder if a reasonable person would fear they're in danger of harm.

You couldn't shoot a toddler for crawling onto your porch or blasting an over zealous Avon lady. Did he have reasonable fear? Probably but certainly not every right.

 

[KHarvey16]

Not necessarily...



You couldn't shoot a toddler for crawling onto your porch or blasting an over zealous Avon lady. Did he have reasonable fear? Probably but certainly not every right.

You've ignored the most important part of what was said. Neither a toddler nor an over zealous Avon lady are breaking into the house.

 

[Camp Lo]

lock him up

Yep. Seems clear as day.

 

[The Culture Vulture]

You've ignored the most important part of what was said. Neither a toddler nor an over zealous Avon lady are breaking into the house.

Understood and maybe a bad attempt at a joke.....how about a severly intoxicated person stumbles into the wrong house. Is he a threat? Maybe, what if they are drugged out?

What I meant is it's not cut and dry if someone comes in to your house you have a RIGHT to shoot them.

 

[GungHo]

Yeah, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. If he sees someone he doesn't recognize coming up to the door, he grabs a hand gun and confronts them, even if it's a mailman he doesn't recognize. He has guns and knives taped to the wall and underneath furniture. He's also racist as hell, and you can imagine how he took the recent election results.

And my sister lets her kids go over there, shoot those weapons, and call him crazy grandpa. But she thinks she's not going to visit with him so often anymore since he told her he's an atheist.

Good to see she has her standards for protecting her children from truly threatening situations.

...

We're talking in this thread about not feeling bad about the consequences of criminals breaking and entering, how about not feeling bad about mentally unstable people losing access to their firearms

I'm with you on this one. There really need to be better inputs for health care professionals in the NICS system. It's never going to be foolproof, but that doesn't mean you don't try to close the gap with cost-effective controls.

Also, 64 is not all crazy old man territory yet. So there isn't that.

People 64 and younger can have degenerative brain diseases or other behavorial issues that look just like "crazy old man territory."

 

[KHarvey16]

Understood and maybe a bad attempt at a joke.....how about a severly intoxicated person stumbles into the wrong house. Is he a threat? Maybe, what if they are drugged out?

What I meant is it's not cut and dry if someone comes in to your house you have a RIGHT to shoot them.

Again, there is a difference between stumbling onto your property and breaking into your house. If a severely intoxicated man forces his way through your door you can absolutely defend yourself with deadly force.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Not necessarily.

Castle Doctrine exists in Minnesota. As such there's no duty to retreat. If he had shot them both and stopped there's no way in hell that State is going to prosecute a man in his own home opening up on two people breaking into someones home.

The law professor in the article gets it:

"I think the first shot is justified," Olson said. "After the person is no longer a threat because they're seriously wounded, the application of self-defense is over."

 

[The Culture Vulture]

Again, there is a difference between stumbling onto your property and breaking into your house. If a severely intoxicated man forces his way through your door you can absolutely defend yourself with deadly force.

I disagree but it really doesn't apply since we all agree this is pretty straight forward, dude lost it, and is rightfully fucked for life because of it.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

This story is all kinds of crazy.

Spoiler

I wish there were no guns anywhere.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I disagree but it really doesn't apply since we all agree this is pretty straight forward, dude lost it, and is rightfully fucked for life because of it.

I'll agree with this.

 

[Gilby]

The way he murdered them has me questioning if they were actually breaking-in in the first place. After all, who robs a place with their teenage female cousin?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Spoiler

I wish there were no guns anywhere.

I wish we lived in a magical place where none suffered and there wasn't a need for self defense either...

Spoiler

Not to suggest this was self defense. We all know it stopped being that after they were dropped. But people should always have the right to self defense. And the right to self defense is completely useless without the means.

 

[KHarvey16]

I disagree but it really doesn't apply since we all agree this is pretty straight forward, dude lost it, and is rightfully fucked for life because of it.

You can disagree but that is how the law is written today, and you'd be hard pressed to find many who would disagree with it. Anyone forcing their way into your home is a threat, and there is absolutely no duty for a person inside the home to take the time to ascertain why they're there or what their mental state is.

 

[Zoe]

The way he murdered them has me questioning if they were actually breaking-in in the first place. After all, who robs a place with their teenage female cousin?

In the first thread about this, someone said that drug use is pretty rampant in the area.

Edit: From the article:

She said that Kifer had been in treatment more than once for abuse of controlled substances, and speculated that her cousin might have been after pills. Kifer had recently returned to school and had been trying to straighten out her life, Shaeffel said, adding that Kifer had stolen Adderall pills from Shaeffel's home.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

I wish we lived in a magical place where none suffered and there wasn't a need for self defense either...

Spoiler

Not to suggest this was self defense. We all know it stopped being that after they were dropped. But people should always have the right to self defense. And the right to self defense is completely useless without the means.

Spoiler

You don't need guns for self defense, and they are mainly defense against other users of guns. Oh, we have nuclear weapons b/c they have nuclear weapons and may use them, better stock up. Yes, my analogy is terrible, and is equivalent to yours.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Spoiler

You don't need guns for self defense, and they are mainly defense against other users of guns. Oh, we have nuclear weapons b/c they have nuclear weapons and may use them, better stock up. Yes, my analogy is terrible, and is equivalent to yours.

If you don't feel the need to own them for self defense then don't. Problem solved. I do and I own them. All that is asked of me is to utilize them responsibly. Which I do. Once again, problem solved.

This douchenozzle didn't and murdered two people. He will pay the price for that choice.

Spoiler

I didn't make an analogy. I used a heavy dose of hyperbole. There's a difference.

 

[IsntChrisL]

They really picked the wrong house to rob. Straight up.

I kind of feel bad for the guy. He was clearly messed up in the head, but he wasn't bothering anybody until these two came looking for trouble. They pretty much woke up a sleeping monster. He shouldn't have shot them so many damn times but they sure as shit shouldn't have been robbing his home either. It's not really fair to sit at your computer with no looming threat upon you, saying how the guy should have acted. He clearly has issues and should get some jail time, but it's not like he went looking for it.

Fucked up situation all around, really.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Sounds like sociopaths all around here.

He shot the kids, wounding them and then shot them again after they were down. Guy's an obvious nutcase and cold blooded. If he had shot each of them once, taking them down and then called the police, he'd be okay. But he stepped way over the line. Can't sympathize with him.

However, that girl laughing after he shot her once. Either she reacted that way because she was in some kind of shock or whatnot or the girl was also a sociopath.

Since the kids broke into someone's house, I can't sympathize with them. You break into someone's home, you get exactly what you deserve. However, can't feel sorry for the old man due to his cold-blooded nature.

Everyone's at fault here.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

They really picked the wrong house to rob. Straight up.

I kind of feel bad for the guy. He was clearly messed up in the head, but he wasn't bothering anybody until these two came looking for trouble. They pretty much woke up a sleeping monster. He shouldn't have shot them so many damn times but they sure as shit shouldn't have been robbing his home either. It's not really fair to sit at your computer with no looming threat upon you, saying how the guy should have acted. He clearly has issues and should get some jail time, but it's not like he went looking for it.

Fucked up situation all around, really.

I feel you but the first thing an owner of a firearm should know is the rules. He has an obligation to know the rules of engagement in his State. He chose to ignore them and killed two people.

Yea, he wasn't bothering anyone at the time and some pill heads got dealt with and while I won't lose any sleep other their loss you GOTTA be able to control yourself when you own a firearm.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

I can sympathize with wanting to thwart burglars but man people with itchy trigger fingers scare me too. Reminds me of a guy in my town not long ago who shot his wife when she came home early to surprise him cause he thought she was a burglar. Here's some of the situations me and my family have experienced which could've went the same way: Kids playing a prank, confused elderly person, drunk person who accidentally opens wrong door...shoot first ask questions later right?

Totally what I said...

Personally, we have alarms on our doors/windows. So I would hope that if someone I know came in and heard that, they'd start yelling for me or something. I in no way have an "itchy trigger finger". I think my post (the part you didn't quote) made it pretty clear:

The thought of having to kill someone to defend myself makes me sick to my stomach

Not saying I wouldn't do it, I would. But, I don't lay in bed at night hoping I get to play Rambo and blow someone to pieces. If anyone broke in, I would lock the bedroom door, call the police, and sit there and wait. If the person tries getting into the bedroom, there are no warning or wounding shots. You either believe your life is in danger and you shoot to kill, or you don't.

Again, this dude went overboard and deserves whatever punishment he gets.

 

[Wool]

I feel you but the first thing an owner of a firearm should know is the rules. He has an obligation to know the rules of engagement in his State. He chose to ignore them and killed two people.

Yea, he wasn't bothering anyone at the time and some pill heads got dealt with and while I won't lose any sleep other their loss you GOTTA be able to control yourself when you own a firearm.

Would you really be standing there thinking about the gun laws in your state if you had two drug addicted burglars in your house? The kill shots were not necessary, but in the heat of the moment its not hard to imagine how someone could shoot more times than they needed to.

 

[SpectreFire]

It's not even that he shot them multiple times, because that I can understand if panic/rage set in, but damn. Shooting that girl once, then unloading on her until your gun jammed, and then pulling out a pistol, putting it under her chin while she's still alive and blowing her brains out... and then telling the cops how that was a good clean kill.

Jesus fuck. That guy is a straight-up psychopath. Sucks for those two kids, but they probably took a serial-killer in waiting off the streets.

 

[TAJ]

They need to dig up this guy's basement and yard.

Also, DY_nasty hangs out with a lot of psychos.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

How the fuck can you defend a guy that wounds both teens to the point where they can no longer move or cause harm, then proceeds to fucking shoot them in the head?

This guy is obviously a fucking lunatic and the fact that he thinks a "good, clean finishing shot" is justification for shooting the girl in the head is fucking ridiculous. Maybe if you hadn't unloaded a fucking gun into her until it jammed before doing so, she wouldn't need your "finishing shot".

This guy is a piece of absolute shit.

 

[Valnen]

Not necessarily.

Depends on the state. Castle law is a nice thing.

A bat to the face works pretty well, or so I'm told.

I think I would rather be shot in the head than take a bat to the face and be disfigured for the rest of my life.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

It's not even that he shot them multiple times, because that I can understand if panic/rage set in, but damn. Shooting that girl once, then unloading on her until your gun jammed, and then pulling out a pistol, putting it under her chin while she's still alive and blowing her brains out... and then telling the cops how that was a good clean kill.

Jesus fuck. That guy is a straight-up psychopath. Sucks for those two kids, but they probably took a serial-killer in waiting off the streets.

Yeah. I know making guesses at someones mental health based off a single story is dumb, but dude sounds like he has serious mental problems. I don't think he'll end up in prison, but think he needs to be put somewhere for the rest of his life.

 

[Wool]

It's not even that he shot them multiple times, because that I can understand if panic/rage set in, but damn. Shooting that girl once, then unloading on her until your gun jammed, and then pulling out a pistol, putting it under her chin while she's still alive and blowing her brains out... and then telling the cops how that was a good clean kill.

Jesus fuck. That guy is a straight-up psychopath. Sucks for those two kids, but they probably took a serial-killer in waiting off the streets.

A 64 year old retiree living by himself in a semi-secluded area? The guy is not a threat to anyone except burglars. He certainly had a different (and disgusting) approach to the situation than what the average person would, but he is not a serial killer by any means.

 

[OJdaKiller]

Awwhhh...Look at the pretty little white burglar addicts along with their senior photos and the creepy crazy old man with guns..Sounds like he's guilty till proven innocent. He did society a favor but now will have to suffer the consequences as people defend the "rights" of the burglars...

 

[KHarvey16]

Awwhhh...Look at the pretty little white burglar addicts along with their senior photos and the creepy crazy old man with guns..Sounds like he's guilty till proven innocent. He did society a favor but now will have to suffer the consequences as people defend the "rights" of the burglars...

3/10

 

[Kinyou]

Awwhhh...Look at the pretty little white burglar addicts along with their senior photos and the creepy crazy old man with guns..Sounds like he's guilty till proven innocent. He did society a favor but now will have to suffer the consequences as people defend the "rights" of the burglars...

Just crawl back under your bridge

 

[Skeyser]

After reading the OP I thought "well, no one's going to try and defend the executions".

GAF proved me wrong once more.