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[64bitmodels]

No. Because Rockstar setpieces wouldn't make sense if the player wants to play jumpy jumps at the side while the police are raiding the bank and you have to escape with the crew Pronto.

So make setpieces that are not so restrictive. You forget that Rockstar had no problem doing this in 6th gen.

 

[StueyDuck]

So make setpieces that are not so restrictive. You forget that Rockstar had no problem doing this in 6th gen.

but people want those setpieces, the best moments in GTA campaigns are when some bombastic crazy shit is happening.

 

[64bitmodels]

but people want those setpieces, the best moments in GTA campaigns are when some bombastic crazy shit is happening.

According to many people not on this forum but in general, the best parts in "GTA Campaigns" is when they're not happening and you can just shoot the shit with your friends exploring the open world. That's a game design failure. Why do you think more people are playing GTA Online and FiveM rather than actually enjoying the GTAV singleplayer campaign for what it is?

Oh yeah right it's because it's restrictive and FUCKIN BORING.

Also we quite literally JUST got a game that still has cinematic production values while having amazing amounts of player choice and exploration.... It's called Baldur's Gate 3.

 

[StueyDuck]

According to many people not on this forum but in general, the best parts in "GTA Campaigns" is when they're not happening and you can just shoot the shit with your friends exploring the open world. That's a game design failure. Why do you think more people are playing GTA Online and FiveM rather than actually enjoying the GTAV singleplayer campaign for what it is?

Oh yeah right it's because it's restrictive and FUCKIN BORING.

Also we quite literally JUST got a game that still has cinematic production values while having amazing amounts of player choice and exploration.... It's called Baldur's Gate 3.

this forum is like barely even 0.1% of gamers who own GTAV let alone those who play all of rockstar games.

people want the games they make, that is why they sell so much.

no one wants baldurs gate 3 rockstar, again GTA games aren't RPGs, they are incredible emergent open worlds with bombastic linear single player campaigns. That's why people buy these games.

 

[64bitmodels]

but do you not see insanely difficult it would be to account for every single deviation possible that a player can make? how can you account for tim tim who insists during the train heist that he has to drive the train no matter what

My brother in christ it's a train heist, you join the mission to hijack the train. Accounting for that would be one of the smartest choices R* could make in that scenario.

then tommy boy wants to jump off the train for funsies

Fail the mission then. Simple as.

jessie wants to unhitch the cart from the train

Sure why not? If you're doing a train heist and you're looking to get some sort of resource it's likely located on a specific cart on the train anyways. Again that'd be smart mission design.

then stevie wants to not kill anyone on the train heist and it goes on and on and on.

legit one of the easiest things an RDR game could implement. Not to mention, doesn't RDR2 have a system where depending on how nice or naughty you are the story changes...? this would legit integrate into RDR so well.

Even having these 3 options in a mission would make it VERY remarkable and memorable by Rockstar standards.

this forum is like barely even 0.1% of gamers who own GTAV let alone those who play all of rockstar games.

This is a criticism that more than NeoGAF has about rockstar games hence the NakeyJakey video. That's why I said "in general" because i've talked to many other people with this and they say similar things, the missions should be more open. This is getting pretty common at this point. GTA sells yes but mostly because of the MULTIPLAYER not the Singleplayer.
Just like how this forum is 0.1% of gamers, 0.1% of gamers have probably finished the GTAV/RDR2 campaign by now despite being extremely high selling record breaking games.

That ain't right.

And the thing you fail to realize is that if people keep gravitating towards the GTA multiplayer that means more shark cards and less well written stories.

 

[StueyDuck]

My brother in christ it's a train heist, you join the mission to hijack the train. Accounting for that would be one of the smartest choices R* could make in that scenario.

Fail the mission then. Simple as.

Sure why not? If you're doing a train heist and you're looking to get some sort of resource it's likely located on a specific cart on the train anyways. Again that'd be smart mission design.

legit one of the easiest things an RDR game could implement. Not to mention, doesn't RDR2 have a system where depending on how nice or naughty you are the story changes...? this would legit integrate into RDR so well.

Even having these 3 options in a mission would make it VERY remarkable and memorable by Rockstar standards.


This is a criticism that more than NeoGAF has about rockstar games hence the NakeyJakey video. That's why I said "in general" because i've talked to many other people with this and they say similar things, the missions should be more open. This is getting pretty common at this point. GTA sells yes but mostly because of the MULTIPLAYER not the Singleplayer.
Just like how this forum is 0.1% of gamers, 0.1% of gamers have probably finished the GTAV/RDR2 campaign by now despite being extremely high selling record breaking games.

That ain't right.

And the thing you fail to realize is that if people keep gravitating towards the GTA multiplayer that means more shark cards and less well written stories.

lol just the infinite possibility game while still delivering high quality production values, totally plausible, it's just an if statement in the code right

Again you have a very small view on who the audience is for GTA and Rockstar if you think forums and nakey jakey fans are the majority of owners, i can promise you that at least 90% of people who bought RDR2 and GTAV give a shit about this, they just want to play the campaign, enjoy the story and explore the open world. GTAV made 1billion on day one of sales, no MP available, RDR2 did great numbers too $725mil, no MP available, the games sell for the SP as much as for the MP

if these issues were so damning and prevalent in these games as you suggest to most gamers, these games wouldn't sell the number of copies that they do.

again, sure being less quick to show a fail state is fair enough, but i don't need 100 ways to complete every single mission and it then dynamically shifting the entire campaign with each mission going forward, it's needlessly ambitious and not possible and is the antithesis of why I play a rockstar game to begin with. If i wanted to "Choose my own adventure" then i'd play an RPG

 

[RoboFu]

I’ve said many times… It seems all gamers want is interactive movies these days. The exceptions to this usually have to be truly exceptional.

 

[64bitmodels]

if these issues were so damning and prevalent in these games as you suggest to most gamers, these games wouldn't sell the number of copies that they do.

I addressed this already. People buy Rockstar games for the MULTIPLAYER. Not the singleplayer. yes they're selling but not to the people who made GTA what it is, it's selling to the people who want to use money to buy an Oppressor MK2 and fly around killing & inconveniencing other less brain damaged players.

 

[K2D]

Haven't read your post to completion OP, but the first thing I thought of was playing as Trevor on the scope-out mission on the docks, and the game prompted me to take pictures of the frater/container ship.. only I soon realized I had to stand at an exact spot dictated by the game.

I hope for more flexibility and multiple paths during missions. Not "choose route A or B" before mission begins.

A sort of multiple points of fail safes during missions to minimize trial and error.

Edit: Reminds me how much I enjoyed the gameplay of MGS5..!

 

[StueyDuck]

I addressed this already. People buy Rockstar games for the MULTIPLAYER. Not the singleplayer. yes they're selling but not to the people who made GTA what it is, it's selling to the people who want to use money to buy an Oppressor MK2 and fly around killing & inconveniencing other less brain damaged players.

that's not addressing anything again, these games sold stupid numbers on day 1 without mp even being available. Sure maybe recently these games sell for MP but to outright state that GTAV only sold because it had multiplayer is just a ludicrous and incorrect statement and the same would be said for RDR2.

you need to stop thinking that twitter circles and forums make up the majority of gamers. the fifa/cod crowd are the ones who make up the majority of gamers and they want GTA the way it is, which is why these games smash records every time they release.

 

[kuncol02]

Haven't read your post to completion OP, but the first thing I thought of was playing as Trevor on the scope-out mission on the docks, and the game prompted me to take pictures of the frater/container ship.. only I soon realized I had to stand at an exact spot dictated by the game.

I hope for more flexibility and multiple paths during missions. Not "choose route A or B" before mission begins.

A sort of multiple points of fail safes during missions to minimize trial and error.

There is infamous example in GTAV where in assassination mission killing target to early is fail trigger.

 

[Krappadizzle]

I adore RDR as a franchise, both 1 and 2 are easily in my favorite games of all time. I do wish you had more agency in RDR2 to quasi-free form finish the missions in the way I choose. Still, I loved what they gave me so I'm not exactly set on drastic changes to it's formula as long as the quality still stands.

 

[K2D]

There is infamous example in GTAV where in assassination mission killing target to early is fail trigger.

On the other hand, the game's somewhat lenient on completing mission parameters before being prompted, exemplified in one of the earlier mission where you take out the aztecas.

 

[damidu]

yeah it’s horrible in rdr2
they created a great living, breathing world and story missions in it are basically glorified cutscenes, where you have to follow the most linear, restricted path imaginable to not get a fail state.

 

[Jakk]

I addressed this already. People buy Rockstar games for the MULTIPLAYER. Not the singleplayer. yes they're selling but not to the people who made GTA what it is, it's selling to the people who want to use money to buy an Oppressor MK2 and fly around killing & inconveniencing other less brain damaged players.

That is completely wrong and I seriously have no idea what would even make you think so.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...Redemption-2-Achieves-Entertainment’s-Biggest

Rockstar Games® is proud to announce that the critically acclaimed Red Dead Redemption 2 has achieved the single-biggest opening weekend in the history of entertainment*. With over $725 million in worldwide retail sell-through during its first three days, Red Dead Redemption 2 is the second-highest grossing entertainment launch of all time next to Rockstar Games' previously released title, Grand Theft Auto V, which achieved over $1 billion in retail sell-through in three days.

GTA Online was launched around two weeks after GTA V and Red Dead Online was launched a month after RDR2. Furthermore, RDR2 is still selling well, despite the fact that Red Dead Online is no longer receiving content updates. Sure, GTA Online has helped improve lifetime sales of GTA V a lot, but saying that people buy Rockstar games for multiplayer is probably one of the most ridiculous takes I have ever read on this forum.

 

[TheMan]

Agreed. Over the past decade the sentiment has been shared quite a bit. I really hope that rockstar tries to remedy this issue with GTA VI

 

[Hawke502]

that's not addressing anything again, these games sold stupid numbers on day 1 without mp even being available. Sure maybe recently these games sell for MP but to outright state that GTAV only sold because it had multiplayer is just a ludicrous and incorrect statement and the same would be said for RDR2.
you need to stop thinking that twitter circles and forums make up the majority of gamers. the fifa/cod crowd are the ones who make up the majority of gamers and they want GTA the way it is, which is why these games smash records every time they release.

Well, if Rockstar wants to make games for the FIFA/COD crowd thats a shame.

You talk like accounting for different styles of gameplays is so hard, when we have games like9 Dishonored, Hitman, Prey, all doing this, why the allmighty Rockstar can't?

The quest structure in RDR2 is pretty outdated, every mission was a variation of "travel to this place, stand in the yellow mark on the minimap, talk to someone. Oh no, shit happens, shoot and then run, or run and then shoot"

 

[Adam_802]

Yeah their mission structure is so limiting. And they still need to really improve their shooting mechanics already.....

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

True Crime Streets Of LA had better mission design 20 years ago.

 

[March Climber]

StueyDuck I’m sorry but there are tons of people in this thread bringing up good examples left and right and your dismissal of them all keeps boiling down to you not thinking it’s possible(the opposite of artistic growth), or you simply wanting Rockstar to keep going down the same course of action(stagnation).

Since you’re so adamant about this and you’re going off on wild NakeyJakey tangents, there’s no way to have a reasonable conversation where you can meet any of us halfway in opinion on anything.

Here’s the last thing I want to say about it: Rockstar has about 2-3 games left in the tank with this same exact type of mission design before gamers finally start to turn on them, just like people have been getting annoyed with Bethesda for doing the same exact things in Starfield that they did in prior games without changing much at all. This will especially be the case the more we start to see competitors evolve to either rival or leapfrog rockstar in that type of mission design in an open world game, as it’s only a matter of time.

If Rockstar decides to implement any of the things that you’re saying is impossible in this thread, don’t turn around and be a hypocrite when that happens and then suddenly praise them for it. I want to see you be upset that they did the ‘impossible’ to please the rest of us who wanted more from them. I have a feeling you won’t though and I will laugh when it happens.

 

[Batiman]

Ya I got that same feeling from RDR2. That’s probably the worst offender. The openness of the world sort of made up for the scripted missions to me though.

 

[LordBlodgett]

This is absolutely true, and yet I still love the games. Most of the times the missions are done well enough that they really shine, and then some are usually crazy or outrageous enough in some way that you want to keep going. The main missions are basically you playing a TV show or movie. What you can do outside of those missions just dinking around is the reason I put so much time into the games. But yeah, make no mistake, the worlds are open but these are not RPG's by any means

 

[TheInfamousKira]

I'm sure I'm not the only person here to say this, but whenever I play a modern Rockstar game like GTAV and RDR2, playing the missions in them feels more like I am playing a game centered around trying to do scenes as an actor in a movie than anything else. I say that because there is so little freedom in them, they basically insta-fail you for deviating from playing them exactly how the developer wanted you to play them. The end result, IMO, is a game where the missions feel like you're an actor doing scenes for a movie. They demand that you absolutely must stick to the script, most attempts to improvise are met with what feels like the director calling cut and resetting you to the start of the scene and making you do it again, with the game essentially telling you "stick to the script this time."

IMO this kinda ruined the feel of playing these games. I never really felt like I was just playing a mission the way I wanted to, I was just constantly getting railroaded from one action scene to the other, doing as told, as expected, getting punished any time I tried to be creative or have some fun with them. I am bringing this up now because every time I try to play these games again, they simply feel really laborious, and I am literally just doing most things exactly how I had to do them before, making any new playthroughs feel like there is nothing new to see.

Uncharted is another good example of a franchise like this, although veiled slightly better. There are SEVERAL encounters in the first three titles that will have you basically instantly die if you don't take the exact scripted route to get through the encounter. The armored guy in the sinking ship in U3 is the example my mind immediately jumps to.

 

[BouncyFrag]

Lack of mission checkpoints in the older games could be brutal tho.

 

[StueyDuck]

Well, if Rockstar wants to make games for the FIFA/COD crowd thats a shame.

You talk like accounting for different styles of gameplays is so hard, when we have games like9 Dishonored, Hitman, Prey, all doing this, why the allmighty Rockstar can't?

The quest structure in RDR2 is pretty outdated, every mission was a variation of "travel to this place, stand in the yellow mark on the minimap, talk to someone. Oh no, shit happens, shoot and then run, or run and then shoot"

none of those games are at all like GTA that is why we don't compare immersive sims with loading screens and small sandbox areas to an open world?

do people really not know the difference between genres, people here wanting it to be an immersive sim, an rpg, a breath of the wild/minecraft clone.

At the end of the day people want GTA to be exactly like GTA, that is why they buy these games.

and yes the fifa cod crowd is exactly who you want to target, that's how your game makes a billion dollars on it's first day of release vs being called a let down by the publisher and watching studios shutter.

 

[Hawke502]

and yes the fifa cod crowd is exactly who you want to target, that's how your game makes a billion dollars on it's first day of release vs being called a let down by the publisher and watching studios shutter.

Yeah, you're right, more and more studios are taking the GaaS approach, and Rockstar is already doing this with GTA Online, that's why they don't actually need to launch any new game. I don't have to like it, though, nor pretend that this is good.

 

[StueyDuck]

Yeah, you're right, more and more studios are taking the GaaS approach, and Rockstar is already doing this with GTA Online, that's why they don't actually need to launch any new game. I don't have to like it, though, nor pretend that this is good.

the MP is a different story and i will agree the online is predatory as all hell, i stopped playing GTO when the second sets of heists came out and everything cost an arm and a leg

 

[Hawke502]

the MP is a different story and i will agree the online is predatory as all hell, i stopped playing GTO when the second sets of heists came out and everything cost an arm and a leg

well, the fifa and cod crow don't mind, and they are exactly who you want to target, right?

 

[StueyDuck]

well, the fifa and cod crow don't mind, and they are exactly who you want to target, right?

yes the original GTAV made a billion dollars the day it released because of GaaS. even though it literally didn't exist and no one knew what to expect from GTAO, it wasn't available, very astute observation you have made there.

or is the observation that fifa and cod fans only started buying games in the last year or so

 

[Hawke502]

yes the original GTAV made a billion dollars the day it released because of GaaS. even though it literally didn't exist and no one knew what to expect from GTAO wasn't available, very astute observation you have made there.

Who is saying that? All im saying is that after it released and it was a massive hit Rockstar shifted focus, thats obvious. RDR2 sold more than 50 million copies and still Rockstar was disappointed they couldn't milk RDR Online the same way they did with GTA Online. GTA V's campaign and story is still considered by many one of the weakest and still is the most successful GTA. There are kids (like my brother and his friends) that never played GTA V's single player, they keep playing GTA Online forever.

 

[StueyDuck]

Who is saying that? All im saying is that after it released and it was a massive hit Rockstar shifted focus, thats obvious. RDR2 sold more than 50 million copies and still Rockstar was disappointed they couldn't milk RDR Online the same way they did with GTA Online. GTA V's campaign and story is still considered by many one of the weakest and still is the most successful GTA. There are kids (like my brother and his friends) that never played GTA V's single player, they keep playing GTA Online forever.

and millions of people bought the game the day it released, so much so that the record still stands, just to play GTAV for the SP. That is the point, because you guys know a few kids who play GTAO now all of a sudden it was a poorly selling game till MP came along, the fact is Rockstar games sell boatloads for their SP and open worlds, RDR2 (which launched without mp and after GTAO) sold massive units day 1 and again RDR never had the same carry as GTA does.

you can dislike it, but people love these games for the SP and Open worlds, the Online just keeps them hooked, and do we wanna target kids anyway it's an adult game, the kids are the ones wanting minecraft/fortnite clones which GTA isn't.

GTA is a unique game, why make it into another game we have already have, i can stick logs together in the bland zelda game, why would i want to do that in GTA, i already have that zelda game.

 

[Hawke502]

and millions of people bought the game the day it released, so much so that the record still stands, just to play GTAV for the SP. That is the point, because you guys know a few kids who play GTAO now all of a sudden it was a poorly selling game till MP came along, the fact is Rockstar games sell boatloads for their SP and open worlds, RDR2 (which launched without mp and after GTAO) sold massive units day 1 and again RDR never had the same carry as GTA does.

you can dislike it, but people love these games for the SP and Open worlds, the Online just keeps them hooked, and do we wanna target kids anyway it's an adult game, the kids are the ones wanting minecraft/fortnite clones which GTA isn't.

GTA is a unique game, why make it into another game we have already have, i can stick logs together in the bland zelda game, why would i want to do that in GTA, i already have that zelda game.

 

[StueyDuck]

your argument is that the general gaming audience (Cod Fifa people) can only ever play GaaS games now and they are kids apparently and that's why Rockstar shouldn't target their traditional audience and instead some niche crowd online that just want a different game they already own.

GTA is GTA, that's what makes it great and the general gaming audience WILL buy it for it's SP and it's Openworld, that's never going to be untrue or incorrect. GTA6 will smash records at launch and it will launch without online as per usual with Rockstar and we'll all be in threads discussing how the game is just making disgusting profit from how exceptionally well it is selling.

 

[Hawke502]

GTA is GTA, that's what makes it great and the general gaming audience WILL buy it for it's SP and it's Openworld, that's never going to be untrue or incorrect. GTA6 will smash records at launch and it will launch without online as per usual with Rockstar and we'll all be in threads discussing how the game is just making disgusting profit from how exceptionally well it is selling.

Whatever dude, maybe i will buy some rockstar shares, but otherwise this doesn't interest me much

your argument is that the general gaming audience (Cod Fifa people) can only ever play GaaS games now and they are kids apparently and that's why Rockstar shouldn't target their traditional audience and instead some niche crowd online that just want a different game they already own.

Your words:

and yes the fifa cod crowd is exactly who you want to target, that's how your game makes a billion dollars on it's first day of release vs being called a let down by the publisher and watching studios shutter.

I think this discussion went out of the window right now, it stopped making sense. But if you think Rockstar didn't change, then why Dan Houser and other people like Lazlow Jones left? Anyway, doesn't matter i guess.

 

[Danjin44]

I have zero love for modern R* games, they very detail open world but actually playing their games feels miserable. I feel like R* just wanted show off their technical abilities with RDR 2 rather than make proper game.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

J jakub

Don't know what's so funny. It's a fact that the story evolves how succesful you have been.(True Crime Streets Of LA)

Meanwhile Rockstar sticks to the garbage mission failed repeat it we have to continue with our great story.

Yeah in the end you have two(GTAIV) or three(GTA)options.