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MLB 2016 Regular Season |OT2| - ASMR Edition ...with Ketchup

C

captmcblack

Member
So we got Torres (I consider the other guys throw-ins that'll never do much of anything), and Chapman didn't extend, so he could potentially come back this offseason?

And we still have Miller, Beltran and others to trade if we're full-on selling?

Good shit, Cashman. Hopefully Torres can fulfill his talent in our system...
 
G

gamz

Member
Sharma nails it per usual.

The names heading to the Bronx are many Cubs fans (especially the prospect lovers) know, but when broken down piece by piece, it may not seem as damaging a cost as originally believed.

Crawford is the least known of the four. He’s an athletic outfielder with a limited hit tool and not enough strength to start.

Warren has disappointed during his nearly four months with the Cubs, posting a 5.91 ERA with a 17.8 percent strikeout rate and 12.5 percent walk rate. He’s struggled to stick on the 25-man roster and was demoted prior to Sunday’s game.

Billy McKinney has a solid approach at the plate (13.5 percent walk rate), but he has little power (.070 ISO this season), is stuck in a corner outfield spot with little arm to show for and is essentially a one-tool prospect (hit). He could develop into more, but he’s largely viewed as a fringe fourth outfielder.

Torres is a strong offensive force who many scouts believe will move to second when he eventually reaches the big leagues. He has a 121 wRC+ for High-A Myrtle Beach this season and is roundly considered a top 30 prospect in the game. He’s still a few years away, the Cubs are quite fond of his abilities and parting with him stings the most.

If there is one question left lingering from this deal, it’s whether moving a piece like Torres will keep them from acquiring a cost-controlled starter this offseason, a goal that they’ve made clear. And if it doesn’t keep them from doing so, just how depleted will the farm system be by that point? It’s a fair question, but one that will have to be dealt with come winter.

Overall, the Yankees made out quite well in this deal, but those crying out that it’s a huge overpay are exaggerating. This is a lot to pay for any reliever, especially one who will be a free agent at season’s end. On the face, it looks like the Yankees have won this deal, especially if you only take into consideration years of control and future WAR.

But how this affects the Cubs is unique, as it would be for any other team acquiring Chapman. And Chapman himself is that rare-breed of reliever only seen a few times a generation. This isn’t the average closer the Cubs just acquired, for now those players have been used to get the best reliever in baseball and the top asset realistically available on the trade market.
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C

Choomp

Banned
I completely missed the fact that the Stros called up Bregman. They have him and Gurriel coming in, I'm expecting to see them in the playoffs. Really love that team
 
D

Dr_LawyerCop

Member
chicagocubsfan said:
Cashman was pretty great. Great calculated move getting Chapman when his value was so low.
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They took the risk and ate the PR hit, so they deserve to get a return on their investment. It's a big package, but I still like the deal. We have a window of a couple years to win before we're going to have to start looking for a new rotation. We might have been able to win without Chapman, but I feel more confident in our chances with him.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
Cubs aren't done yet. Evident they are going all in, I'd expect a trade for a SP to heat up.

I hope the Cards do something, but Cleveland is contending.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
billeh said:
Cubs probably gave up too much for Chapman, but given there was no place for most of them it makes it a little easier to swallow. The whole "number 1 prospect" means less and less as the Cubs have aggressively promoted guys.

Also kind of stupid to try and declared winners and losers of a trade 20 minutes after it happens, especially when it involves guys that have never seen major league playing time.
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How do you know there's no place for Torres? He's not MLB ready now. Anything can happen by the time he is.

The argument that there was no place for Torres because of Baez and Russell makes no sense because Torres was never going to contribute this year. Or next year, even.

This was a huge overpay for two months of a reliever. No getting around that.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
billeh said:
Cubs probably gave up too much for Chapman, but given there was no place for most of them it makes it a little easier to swallow. The whole "number 1 prospect" means less and less as the Cubs have aggressively promoted guys.

Also kind of stupid to try and declared winners and losers of a trade 20 minutes after it happens, especially when it involves guys that have never seen major league playing time.
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The only time TO declare a winner and loser is immediately after the trade happens.

You can't judge a trade by being results oriented, you judge a trade by what the assets were worth at the time of the trade.

2 months of Chapman isn't worth Torres + McKinney + another piece + Warren. He's probably not worth Torres by himself for just 2 months.
 
G

gamz

Member
Frozenprince said:
The only time TO declare a winner and loser is immediately after the trade happens.

You can't judge a trade by being results oriented, you judge a trade by what the assets were worth at the time of the trade.

2 months of Chapman isn't worth Torres + McKinney + another piece + Warren. He's probably not worth Torres by himself for just 2 months.
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To the Cubs it's most certainly worth it. Getting a elite game-changing closer for the playoffs is a huge get for the Cubs.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
gamz said:
To the Cubs it's most certainly worth it. Getting a elite game-changing closer for the playoffs is a huge get for the Cubs.
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No. It isn't. Not for the assets you gave up.

Prospects don't just exist in a vacuum, they have value. Just because you don't need them at the moment of the trade doesn't mean you didn't give up bad value for 2 months of one pitcher.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
Frozenprince said:
No. It isn't. Not for the assets you gave up.

Prospects don't just exist in a vacuum, they have value. Just because you don't need them at the moment of the trade doesn't mean you didn't give up bad value for 2 months of one pitcher.
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It's easy for us to armchair QB, but considering the amount of teams interested in Chapman, Cubs felt the overpay was worth it. If Chapman resigns, or extends before FA, then it's in the Cubs favor.
 
G

gamz

Member
Frozenprince said:
No. It isn't. Not for the assets you gave up.

Prospects don't just exist in a vacuum, they have value. Just because you don't need them at the moment of the trade doesn't mean you didn't give up bad value for 2 months of one pitcher.
Click to expand...

Right. They got us an elite closer which solidifies are main weakness which was our bullpen. Is it a overpay? Sure. But let's not get nuts here... Torres is the only guy that's going to be worth a damn in that trade and he's at least 3 years away. Chapman helps us now.
 
C

CosmicQueso

Member
Frozenprince said:
Prospects don't just exist in a vacuum, they have value.
Click to expand...

But so does the best player at his position in the game today.

Chapman is Elite. 12.6 K/9, 1.93 FIP, 5.5 K:BB.

However, the only way this trade isn't criticized for the next 20 years is if the Cubs win it all. Anything less and it'll be seen as a bad trade forever.

But lots of times, the big name prospects in a rental trade don't work out.

Best case for the Cubs? Probably 2008 - CC Sabathia to the Brewers for Matt LaPorta. People were saying the Brewers overpaid. Nope.

Not so good case for the Cubs? Everything the A's did a few years ago.
 
B

billeh

Member
gamz said:
Right. They got us an elite closer which solidifies are main weakness which was our bullpen. Is it a overpay? Sure. But let's not get nuts here... Torres is the only guy that's going to be worth a damn in that trade and he's at least 3 years away. Chapman helps us now.
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But Baez and Russell could get run over by a bus three years from now. Good job, Epstink!
 
B

bebop242

Member
As a Cub fan, I don't like it. I know I bitched about needing relief pitching during their slump recently but I also think back to last year when they lost against the Mets. Having Chapman last year would have changed nothing.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out at least.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
bebop242 said:
As a Cub fan, I don't like it. I know I bitched about needing relief pitching during their slump recently but I also think back to last year when they lost against the Mets. Having Chapman last year would have changed nothing.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out at least.
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You got the best bullpen arm in the game. The asking price was always going to be high.
 
C

captmcblack

Member
If the Cubs win the WS, they won the deal period. Doesn't matter if Torres turns into prime A-Rod for 20 seasons after that. Doesn't matter if Chapman gets injured and/or doesn't re-sign long-term. If the Cubs can win the World Series title, all sins are forgiven, and every move made was the right one.

This was a good move for both sides - the Cubs have a bunch of infielders with multi-year star potential locked up in Rizzo, Russell and Baez. They still have additional prospects with potential waiting for a chance as well. Giving up their top prospect is tough, but that's still just a lottery ticket - and he wasn't going to play any time soon. Chapman is as sure a thing as there currently is in baseball, and the Cubs pen became ultra-deadly just now. Yankees get a really nice piece to restock the prospect fridge with, and suddenly with Torres, Rutherford, Mateo, Kaprelian, Judge, Sanchez (and to a lesser extent Severino and Bird), the Yankees farm system is looking decent. If 1 or more of these guys pan out, the Yankees are set for the future.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
It's going to be glorious when Daniel Murphy and the Nats knock the Cubs out, continuing the Murphy curse, then Chapman resigns as a FA with the Yanks.
 
B

billeh

Member
Chapman has 25 scoreless appearances against the Cardinals for 46 K's over the last five years.

So they're scoring against him the next game we play.
 
G

gamz

Member
bebop242 said:
As a Cub fan, I don't like it. I know I bitched about needing relief pitching during their slump recently but I also think back to last year when they lost against the Mets. Having Chapman last year would have changed nothing.

Will be interesting to see how it all plays out at least.
Click to expand...

That's terrible reasoning. Every year is different and all you can do is get the best team out there. Last year has nothing to do with this year.

The Met's had what 2-3 blown saves in the WS last year. What if they had Chapman?
 
C

Choomp

Banned
gamz said:
That's terrible reasoning. Every year is different and all you can do is get the best team out there. Last year has nothing to do with this year.

The Met's had what 2-3 blown saves in the WS last year. What if they had Chapman?
Click to expand...

If the Mets had Chapman they would've found other ways to lose those games. Just wasn't meant to be.

Not gonna lie though the idea of Chapman closing out games at a packed Wrigley does kind of get me excited
 
M

Malo

Banned
Joel Sherman

Hear Hal Steinbrenner will look at any trade concepts Cashman gets but will not allow firesale, wants to still try to make playoffs #Yankees

Help us, Astros, you're our only hope.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Malo said:
Joel Sherman

Hear Hal Steinbrenner will look at any trade concepts Cashman gets but will not allow firesale, wants to still try to make playoffs #Yankees

Help us, Astros, you're our only hope.
Click to expand...
This is nonsense. You'll sell.
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
Malo said:
Joel Sherman

Hear Hal Steinbrenner will look at any trade concepts Cashman gets but will not allow firesale, wants to still try to make playoffs #Yankees

Help us, Astros, you're our only hope.
Click to expand...
Hal fucking up that posture.
 
C

CosmicQueso

Member
Choomp said:
If the Mets had Chapman they would've found other ways to lose those games. Just wasn't meant to be.
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Why bother coming up with teams at all then. Just put some guys out there. If you're meant to win, you'll win. As long as you want it more than the other guys and play the game the right way.
 
J

JoseDFrog

Banned
Malo said:
Joel Sherman

Hear Hal Steinbrenner will look at any trade concepts Cashman gets but will not allow firesale, wants to still try to make playoffs #Yankees

Help us, Astros, you're our only hope.
Click to expand...
I call bullshit. Chapman trade was a complete sell. #teamfiresale
 
C

Choomp

Banned
CosmicQueso said:
Why bother coming up with teams at all then. Just put some guys out there. If you're meant to win, you'll win. As long as you want it more than the other guys and play the game the right way.
Click to expand...

I was joking, but all in all Mests luck really seems to be that way
 
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