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MLB 2020 (Off-season/Spring Training/Regular Season) : Baseball is dull only to dull minds

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StormCell

StormCell

Member
greyshark said:
I’m struggling to care about who’s at fault in a battle between millionaires and billionaires to decide how they split up our money.
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I'm kinda tired of the whole money-making operation around sports. I feel like the players are the thing that should be paid really well, and if there's anything left over as surplus then that's nice for the owner. Instead, this is a big money-making business, and the outcomes of the sport have direct impact on the amount of money being made.

It's a conflict of interest for a business that operates around a supposedly fair sport.

EDIT:

I guess someone done anticipated me and my baseless complaints.

Owners say they simply don't have the cash flow to pay full, prorated salaries considering baseball halted spring training about 10 days before Opening Day. Hence, revenue hasn't materialized for 2020.

"The league itself does not make a lot of cash," Chicago Cubs owner Tom Ricketts said Tuesday. "I think there is a perception that we hoard cash and we take money out and it's all sitting in a pile we've collected over the years. Well, it isn't. Because no one anticipated a pandemic."
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I'm curious to know how open the Cubs books are. We can see the Braves' finances because they are publicly owned, but the rest of baseball is notorious for claiming no profits on the sport. Of course, this probably ignores a lot of additional sources of revenue through licensing, merchandising, and anything earned by and distributed by MLB to the individual owners.
 
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Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
That prorated “if the playoffs happen” is going to be where this dies. The crux of all of it was hedging against another covid situation so 50% prorated is a non-starter.

If the owners try to force it, the union will respond by challenging the neutral sites. It’ll end in court.
 
R

Rock And Roll

Member
greyshark said:
www.espn.com

MLB players reject latest offer, want schedule set

The Major League Baseball Players Association rejected MLB's latest proposal on Saturday and asked the league to set a schedule for the 2020 season.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

Well that’s the end of negotiations - will be interesting to see if the league follows through with their promise of a 50 game season.
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All those disgruntled pitchers angry at being forced back to work means the Astros are just going to get drilled even harder.
 
Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
Manfred walking back from his 100% "there will be baseball". Shocked. Ok. Not that shocked.

This was in the works for ages now. The owners don't want a season if a) the playoffs and the money associated with them are in jeopardy and b) if they can just break the union on the heels of the CBA expiring. The MLBPA saying "we're not countering, tell us when to report" is calling the owners' bluff. And the owners have nothing.

Also new rumors that there would be no season unless the MLBPA agreed to waive the right to any potential grievances. Game over. This is seemingly the last ploy the owners have in an attempt to say "We wanted a season! Blame the players!"

From here, unfortunately I don't see how it gets better. How exactly do you play the 2021 season with the CBA set to expire 12/31/21? Calling my next shot now-- owners consider claiming force majeure, voiding (or attempting to void) the last year of the CBA and then things go nuclear. Maybe arbitration delays it and we sneak in a 2021 season? That's a big if. But my expectations now are no 2020 season, a coin flip at best for 2021, and all hell breaking loose before 2022.

If things do go nuclear, I think there's a lot of teams that will be in serious trouble and you'll start to hear whispers of contraction and the like. Mind you, as bad as it looks "on paper", any of the contracted teams will still walk away with more than their current franchise value once their bought out. Why? Because the "surviving" teams will have fewer mouths to feed from their revenue deals (i.e. licensing, broadcasting etc etc).

Ironically, this is all about covid and not about covid at all at the same time. Covid was just the catalyst for years of mismanagement. Tony Clark sucks and should be replaced yesterday. Manfred should resign. Neither will actually happen.

Congratulations Gary Bettman, you're no longer the most incompetent commissioner in American sports.
 
greyshark

greyshark

Member
I think cooler heads will prevail by the time 2021 rolls around. There might be a delayed start as they complete their bickering, but no way they let another season go to waste assuming 2020 doesn’t happen.
 
Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
greyshark said:
I think cooler heads will prevail by the time 2021 rolls around. There might be a delayed start as they complete their bickering, but no way they let another season go to waste assuming 2020 doesn’t happen.
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The two sides have already proven they hate each other and this is as much about how badly the MLBPA took a beating in the last CBA as much as anything. You've seen how bad free agency has been. They rammed through a 5-round draft. There's virtually no way there's not a work stoppage on 12/31/21 so it doesn't leave a lot of room between where things stand today and there.

I *want* to be wrong. Ignore my avatar for a moment. I'm a baseball guy at heart. I was a teenager during the '94 strike and that took the steroid era to bounce back. I think you'd have an even tougher ask to come back again. The whole sports landscape has changed since '94. You're going to have a ton of undrafted players due to the 5-round draft. You're going to have knock-on impacts to the minors and who knows what the '21 draft would look like.....aside from the foundation of a pool of replacement players.

Here's sincerely hoping I'm wrong. But to go back to the avatar for a sec, I was the Falcons fan who said 28-3 at the half was still too early to celebrate. That ended well.
 
R

Rock And Roll

Member
Unfortunately I have to agree. They've been going full speed for a lockout over the last couple years with what has happened during free agency and the regular season with service time manipulation. Manfred's comments were complete and utter dogshit. He hates baseball and works for the owners, not the players.
 
Elpidio Valdés

Elpidio Valdés

Member
Man I'm missing baseball so much! My Marlins were going to royally suck again but who cares. I always enjoy going to the stadium 4 or 5 games every season. This lockout is specially hurtful for younger prospects. I was really looking forward to the continued development of Brian Anderson and maybe getting a look at Sixto Sanchez in the majors.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Its very simple to get it started, pay the players what you agreed to. If you signed ABC Player to $10 million a season and play half a season... pay him $5 million.

Thats $61,728.40 a game if I did my math right. Pay him that a game.
 
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B

Bladed Thesis

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
Its very simple to get it started, pay the players what you agreed to. If you signed ABC Player to $10 million a season and play half a season... pay him $5 million.

Thats $61,728.40 a game if I did my math right. Pay him that a game.
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Not to play devil's advocate for owners, but it is not that simple. To think it's that simple is to not understand the situation at all.

You didn't sign ABC Player to $10 million a season. You signed ABC Player to $10 million a season where that season has people at the stadium every game buying tickets and buying concessions. That all goes into the cost analysis of contracts.

If you were to take ticket sales and concessions out, ABC Player would not have been offered a $10 million a season contract. We all know this.

I also think when you try to make it that simple, it does a disservice to both sides of the negotiations. Both sides can't be broken down to a "very simple" explanation that ignores that these are COMPLICATED contracts in a complicated league going through an unprecedented and complicated situation. Add in that the MLBPA is still reeling from getting deep dicked on the last CBA and they really don't want to embarrass themselves again and you've got a recipe for prolonged talks and very hurt feelings.
 
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Setzer

Setzer

Member
People pinning all the blame on the Owners when it's both sides that are equally to blame. Players shouldn't be expecting full prorated salaries for games played without fans. They have to give a little here and I would say getting 75-80% of your prorated salary is more than fair. Bickering over getting paid millions to play a game with everything that's going on in the world is going to end up doing irreversible damage to the sport if a season doesn't happen.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Bladed Thesis said:
Not to play devil's advocate for owners, but it is not that simple. To think it's that simple is to not understand the situation at all.

You didn't sign ABC Player to $10 million a season. You signed ABC Player to $10 million a season where that season has people at the stadium every game buying tickets and buying concessions. That all goes into the cost analysis of contracts.

If you were to take ticket sales and concessions out, ABC Player would not have been offered a $10 million a season contract. We all know this.

I also think when you try to make it that simple, it does a disservice to both sides of the negotiations. Both sides can't be broken down to a "very simple" explanation that ignores that these are COMPLICATED contracts in a complicated league going through an unprecedented and complicated situation. Add in that the MLBPA is still reeling from getting deep dicked on the last CBA and they really don't want to embarrass themselves again and you've got a recipe for prolonged talks and very hurt feelings.
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Nothing for the Player has changed. You paid for the performance and wear and tear on the body. Thats the real exchange. My body for this much money lol. Sounds whorish but it is what it is.

Owners of teams signed players for the performance or overall value. They justify the cost by how much it will return in profit sure.

So whether Max Scherzer pitches in front of 10 people or 50,000, his body still goes through the same damage.

Setzer said:
People pinning all the blame on the Owners when it's both sides that are equally to blame. Players shouldn't be expecting full prorated salaries for games played without fans. They have to give a little here and I would say getting 75-80% of your prorated salary is more than fair. Bickering over getting paid millions to play a game with everything that's going on in the world is going to end up doing irreversible damage to the sport if a season doesn't happen.
Click to expand...

If you are making $20 an hour at Best Buy and they said only $10 right now because we have less foot traffic, you wouldn't feel this way.
 
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Setzer

Setzer

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
Nothing for the Player has changed. You paid for the performance and wear and tear on the body. Thats the real exchange. My body for this much money lol. Sounds whorish but it is what it is.

Owners of teams signed players for the performance or overall value. They justify the cost by how much it will return in profit sure.

So whether Max Scherzer pitches in front of 10 people or 50,000, his body still goes through the same damage.



If you are making $20 an hour at Best Buy and they said only $10 right now because we have less foot traffic, you wouldn't feel this way.
Click to expand...
We're talking about millions to play a game vs. making minimum wage to work in a department store. Big difference.

Players are already overpaid as it is.
 
JareBear: Remastered

JareBear: Remastered

Banned
If anyone is interested in taking over a team in the NeoGAF Fantasy Baseball league please hit Musky up with your e-mail so he can switch us out. I am not going to be able to participate this year, situation has changed but draft has already happened so I can't just drop out, has to be a direct switch.

Would be doing me a favor, and the league a favor (avoiding having a dead no-activity roster). Thanks in advance
 
Elpidio Valdés

Elpidio Valdés

Member
Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen said:
If anyone is interested in taking over a team in the NeoGAF Fantasy Baseball league please hit Musky up with your e-mail so he can switch us out. I am not going to be able to participate this year, situation has changed but draft has already happened so I can't just drop out, has to be a direct switch.

Would be doing me a favor, and the league a favor (avoiding having a dead no-activity roster). Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

The way things are going it looks like there won't be a season but I would love to participate in next year's league. I've only ever played Fantasy Football though so I have to read up on how Fantasy Baseball works, especially since games are played every day.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
We're talking about millions to play a game vs. making minimum wage to work in a department store. Big difference.

Players are already overpaid as it is.
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Wrong. Completely wrong.

Juan Soto
Pete Alonso
Walker Buehler

Check them. They aren't making Millions. First they (the team) gets them real cheap. Players who go thru the years of team control "pay their dues" for in order to get those Millions later on.

Teams Draft Players. Get them incredibly cheap for the first few years. Then still at a massive discount. Then CHOOSE whether or not they want to sign them for those Millions.
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
Wrong. Completely wrong.

Juan Soto
Pete Alonso
Walker Buehler

Check them. They aren't making Millions. First they (the team) gets them real cheap. Players who go thru the years of team control "pay their dues" for in order to get those Millions later on.

Teams Draft Players. Get them incredibly cheap for the first few years. Then still at a massive discount. Then CHOOSE whether or not they want to sign them for those Millions.
Click to expand...

You picked out 3 players out of how many in MLB? The average MLB salary is like 4mil, so no, I'm not wrong. A large majority of the players are making millions and I have no sympathy for any of them. If the season gets cancelled then they'll only get 4% of their base salary. Sorry, but if I'm making that kind of money and I can take a deal that will pay me 80% of my prorated salary vs. not playing at all and only getting 4% then I'm taking the deal to play.

At this point, they should either cancel the season or get replacements.
 
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Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
You picked out 3 players out of how many in MLB? The average MLB salary is like 4mil, so no, I'm not wrong. A large majority of the players are making millions and I have no sympathy for any of them. If the season gets cancelled then they'll only get 4% of their base salary. Sorry, but if I'm making that kind of money and I can take a deal that will pay me 80% of my prorated salary vs. not playing at all and only getting 4% then I'm taking the deal to play.

At this point, they should either cancel the season or get replacements.
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Thats not just 3 players. Its almost every player their first few years

Mike Trout
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
Sorry man, I don't have sympathy for any of them, even the rookies who only make 500k.

They should have taken the last deal the owners offered them.
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Says total Player salary is just under $4 Billion, lets just say $4 Billion

MLB Total revenue... $10.7 Billion
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
Says total Player salary is just under $4 Billion, lets just say $4 Billion

MLB Total revenue... $10.7 Billion
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Dude...80% or 4%? Which are you taking? The Owners can be total dicks about this and say cancel the season. There's already 8 owners who don't want play to resume. Would you rather have a season and get 80% or not have a season and only get 4%?

It seems the only way players are going to get their full prorated salaries is if the season is 50 games or less and the owners might just say "Fuck it" at that point and elect to cancel.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
Dude...80% or 4%? Which are you taking? The Owners can be total dicks about this and say cancel the season. There's already 8 owners who don't want play to resume. Would you rather have a season and get 80% or not have a season and only get 4%?

It seems the only way players are going to get their full prorated salaries is if the season is 50 games or less and the owners might just say "Fuck it" at that point and elect to cancel.
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Would you put your career on the line for less? They are asking for players to take the hit financially. The players would be taking all the risk.
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
Would you put your career on the line for less? They are asking for players to take the hit financially. The players would be taking all the risk.
Click to expand...

Sorry but I don't see any risks here. They'll be playing in empty stadiums with no exposure to fans and all players and personnel will be tested regularly. How about all the medical workers in the world right now making a fraction of what these players are making? They're the ones taking risks going to work each day.
 
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Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
Sorry but I don't see any risks here. They'll be playing in empty stadiums with no exposure to fans and all players and personnel will be tested regularly. How about all the medical workers in the world right now making a fraction of what these players are making? They're the ones taking risks going to work each day.
Click to expand...
happ.gif
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
Then you may as well not play at all because all those players take those risks as soon as they take the field....and this goes back to their little league days when they weren't getting paid.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
Then you may as well not play at all because all those players take those risks as soon as they take the field....and this goes back to their little league days when they weren't getting paid.
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Why pay them at all if they can get kids to do it for free?
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
I'm just pissed off at both sides about this whole thing. It sucks not having baseball and we're half way through June. Not only that, I can't play any of my fantasy league teams which is something I look forward to every baseball season.
 
Musky_Cheese

Musky_Cheese

Banned
Setzer said:
I'm just pissed off at both sides about this whole thing. It sucks not having baseball and we're half way through June. Not only that, I can't play any of my fantasy league teams which is something I look forward to every baseball season.
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I feel ya. Guess how I feel...

They had an opportunity to play games in a time people were desperate for entertainment. It’s a large part of how Tiger King got successful for example.

You are trying to reach a younger audience, and overall a larger audience.

They had the opportunity to reintroduce millions to the game at a time where no other option was available.

Unforced error
 
Setzer

Setzer

Member
Musky_Cheese said:
I feel ya. Guess how I feel...

They had an opportunity to play games in a time people were desperate for entertainment. It’s a large part of how Tiger King got successful for example.

You are trying to reach a younger audience, and overall a larger audience.

They had the opportunity to reintroduce millions to the game at a time where no other option was available.

Unforced error
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Yep. Could have been the first major sport in the US to resume playing and have that stage all to themselves. Would have been huge for baseball. Now we're looking at permanent damage being done, which may be irreversible, and it's all because of money.
 
Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
Am I crazy in saying it’s not (directly) about money? It’s about winning. The owners want to break the union. The union is mad as hell about the last CBA.

From there, sure it’s about (future) money but this is personal.
 
B

Bladed Thesis

Member
Ron Mexico said:
Am I crazy in saying it’s not (directly) about money? It’s about winning. The owners want to break the union. The union is mad as hell about the last CBA.

From there, sure it’s about (future) money but this is personal.
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I think its the exact opposite and I think the optics follow my logic.

It IS about winning but for the players union. They got so manhandled in the last CBA negotiations, negotiating for a luxury tax and not realizing it was basically negotiating for a salary cap with no floor, and now they need a win so bad to show the players and the sport that they won't get manhandled twice in a row.

The union wants to break the MLB owners for the last CBA.
 
R

Rock And Roll

Member
Setzer said:
Sorry man, I don't have sympathy for any of them, even the rookies who only make 500k.

They should have taken the last deal the owners offered them.
Click to expand...

It's easy to see these guys as a bunch of greedy millionaires, but I know myself if I were to run into that kind of money, I'd help my family out. Buy mom and dad a new place, same with the siblings etc... So you're in your 3rd-4th year and have finally netted a decent payday so you set your family up and now your income is gone.

Now I can't say for certain that all players are doing this, but I'm sure there's quite a few who are. $500 000 would barely get you a condo in my city. I'm less inclined to feel bad for the guys who hit free agency and already have made over $10 million in their career. But most players into their 4th year still aren't making ridiculous amounts of money at this point. I'm sure a lot of them do need the money for things over than lambos and waterslides in their backyards. So I can see why they are fighting against the owners for penny pinching, who are clearly billionaires and won't be hurting financially from this.
 
B

Bladed Thesis

Member
Rock And Roll said:
It's easy to see these guys as a bunch of greedy millionaires, but I know myself if I were to run into that kind of money, I'd help my family out. Buy mom and dad a new place, same with the siblings etc... So you're in your 3rd-4th year and have finally netted a decent payday so you set your family up and now your income is gone.

Now I can't say for certain that all players are doing this, but I'm sure there's quite a few who are. $500 000 would barely get you a condo in my city. I'm less inclined to feel bad for the guys who hit free agency and already have made over $10 million in their career. But most players into their 4th year still aren't making ridiculous amounts of money at this point. I'm sure a lot of them do need the money for things over than lambos and waterslides in their backyards. So I can see why they are fighting against the owners for penny pinching, who are clearly billionaires and won't be hurting financially from this.
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With interest rates where they've been for the last 2-3 years, if a baseball player making 500k isn't getting a low interest rate mortgage on a 500k condo he's a moron.

So putting that into perspective, a 500k condo at 3.92 will end up costing around $2,364 per month. At $500,000 annual salary, you're looking at a bi-weekly income AFTER taxes of about $12,951. So that's about $25k PER MONTH. If you're worried about these poor poor not-almost-millionaires being able to afford their $500k condos then I've got news for you.

To think that $25k PER MONTH is somehow NOT ridiculous amonts of money because you're comparing them with Trout's income then I don't know what to say.

And toput the MLB average salary of $4.36m into perspective, that's a bi-weekly takehome AFTER taxes of about $102,904. Twice a fucking month. At the league average. Millionaires fighting with billionaires, oh how my little violen strums.
 
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Ron Mexico

Ron Mexico

Member
Bladed Thesis said:
I think its the exact opposite and I think the optics follow my logic.

It IS about winning but for the players union. They got so manhandled in the last CBA negotiations, negotiating for a luxury tax and not realizing it was basically negotiating for a salary cap with no floor, and now they need a win so bad to show the players and the sport that they won't get manhandled twice in a row.

The union wants to break the MLB owners for the last CBA.
Click to expand...

Breaking the owners is an impossibility though when even a team like the Royals sold for $1B. Again that's why I'm not on the "we're going broke" train. The profits are there for the taking if/when the owners sold those clubs. The MLBPA's closest thing they could do to "breaking" the owners is to remain in solidarity.

The average MLB salary is also a total misnomer. When you have 6 years of club control, most of your players are going to be playing for at or near the MLB minimum. It's the megadeals for a comparatively FAR small subset of players that disproportionately skews the average.

I'm by no means an MLBPA apologist-- I've said a few posts above that Clark is completely out of his depth and we're here because under his watch, there was one of the worst CBAs in the history of the game. The MLBPA has an obligation to its players to negotiate a fair deal. They failed massively and now (in part) here we are.

Manfred and Clark both need to step aside for the good of the game. Neither will do so.
 
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