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MLB Off-season Thread 2015-2016 IOTI Back to the Future was a lie

ValleyJoe

Neo Member
But why do you like the opt out? Because you are afraid he'll turn into a pumpkin? If that is true then you are stuck with him for 6 years. If he balls out and pitches like an ace for 2 years then you either have to re-up and give him more money/years to keep him, or lose him for nothing. None of those scenarios are good for the team. I mean, in the super specific scenario that he plays like a Cy Young for 2 years, opts out, leaves and then signs with someone else and proceeds to turn immediately into Mike Hampton, I guess you could say "Whew we dodged a bullet", but again, if you still had him under contract you could just trade him for a haul if you really thought "This guy's been amazing but I get the feeling he's going to turn into a fat turd almost immediately".
Actually I totally missed what you had said about trade value. In this particular case because the AAV is so cheap, you're right that Cueto would be an extremely valuable trade chip assuming he hasn't completely fallen apart. I really think that what it comes down to is that they had no choice but to offer the 2 year opt out to get him to sign so cheap, but because he's had some shoulder issues in the past, and is not really a highly conditioned athlete compared to someone like Greinke or Price, it's a sacrifice they're willing to make for 2 good cheap years.
So, I guess I agree with you in principal that opt outs always benefit the player and not the team, but sometimes a team can potentially dodge a bullet by having someone opt out and then break down, and they feel Cueto has better odds of being that bullet than someone like Price or Greinke.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I go to the hospital early this morning for surgery and I come out and find out SF signs Cueto?

Dunno how to feel about that. Might be the hydrocodone though.
 
Like you said most people haven't read any analysis of what PEDs actually do so in their minds he'd "maybe have an OBP of .300, we don't know!"

Well, pitchers tend to not pitch in the zone to a guy who can mash the hell out of the ball, so yeah, PEDs do actually have an effect on OBP. No doubt, Bonds had Hall of Fame talent long before he ever applied the cream and the clear, but those PEDs helped more stats than just his HR totals.
 
A Korean pitcher and the greatest closer, arguably in asian baseball history, was just unilaterally blackballed from the sport for gambling allegations.

Gambling has a tangible impact on perception of a level playing field in baseball, look at the rampant corruption in FIFA because of how the bookies and gangsters literally run the sport worldwide. Rose shouldn't just get a pass because he was a great, incredible hitter. It sucks, but if he didn't outright lie to Selig and Manfred, he's probably reinstated a decade ago.

He kept lying to them, that's whats keeping him out of baseball. How can you believe his claims about the breadth and depth of his gambling during his playing career if he can't even be honest about what he's doing now?

If he didn't keep lying he should have been allowed in, but unfortunately for Pete, he just keeps lying about this.
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
Betting on baseball is definitely worse than jacking up on roids and ruining the integrity of the game. For suuuuuure.

Get the fuck over it.

To the credibility of a sport? Yes.

Im not saying roided out dudes is a good thing and should face their own punishment but I rather have that then wondering whether people threw a fucking game or not because they have money on it. If you bet on baseball while in the sport (or any sport for that matter) get the fuck out.
 
But could he throw left handed. Thats where the real money is at.

*Would like to once again state that my son is left handed*

giphy.gif
 
PEDs helped Big Mac and Sammy break the HR record and helped Cal Ripken Jr break Lou Gherig's streak. If not for those two things baseball would be on Destination America right now.
 

cashman

Banned
A Korean pitcher and the greatest closer, arguably in asian baseball history, was just unilaterally blackballed from the sport for gambling allegations.

I keep researching this, and I can't actually find out if he gambled on baseball or not. It seems like it's just a Korean thing because they're not allowed to gamble on anything at all overseas.
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
But you are guaranteeing those years. You're acting as though the player is definitely going to opt out, but he only does that if he can exceed the value of the remainder of the contract.

I get what you're saying about prefering younger players, there's no doubt that's beneficial. But it almost seems as if you're assuming the player opts out, with no risk to the club. You're also assuming all pitchers break down at some point, which seems counterintuitive to your previous point.

And the other thing you're missing is that, although personally you don't like signing aging pitchers, teams are clearly willing to do it. The fair market value for Greinke far exceeded what was remaining on his Dodgers contract. Therefore, without that opt-out clause, the remainder of the Greinke contract is an asset to the Dodgers.

The team is guaranteeing them, but it's not guaranteed to the team. Player options! The thing is, if the player in question breaks, well, without the opt-out you'd be paying them anyways. An opt-out just gives a lucky team the potential to escape a long-term contract before the player breaks.

And well, yeah, I think every player (sans Bonds) will break eventually. It's a matter of when, and a team can assess this on a case by case basis when deciding how to offer an opt-out structure. I don't think it's counter-intuitive to my argument though because without opt-outs, teams are taking on the risk of a broken player in every deal. With opt-outs, they have a slightly better chance of not getting bogged down with a big money, no value player.

Teams are willing to sign guys to long-term deals into their late 30s because collusion is illegal and the prisoner's dilemma insures that some team is going to make a deal like that, so they basically all have to. They've also done such a good job of limiting the salaries of younger players that most of them can afford an albatross or two and be fine. That doesn't mean that smart teams can't take advantage of teams like the Diamondbacks by letting them absorb the expensive 32+ year old players.

And the market value of Greinke's contract for the next 3 years was only valuable to the Dodgers if they were going to trade him, which seems doubtful. Sure it helps their $/WAR ratio compared to the market rate, but since there isn't a direct correlation between spending (or spending efficiency) and winning, I'm not sure this matters? [Edit: So I was a few beers in when I wrote this and another beer later I'm realizing I kind of contradicted myself here. Spending efficiency is basically the entirety of what I'm arguing for. That being said, I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe that avoiding the risk attached to the post opt-out years of a contract is more valuable to a team than the savings differential between the remaining balance of the original contract and the cost of either re-signing the player or replacing them.]

You are completely discounting the fact that having an elite player under contract, even if he's 32, is an extremely valuable asset. Look at what the Phillies were able to do with Hamels when they decided he didn't fit into their plans anymore. If Grienke had no opt out, and the Dodgers decided they were too scared his elbow was going to explode, they could have traded him for a haul this offseason.

I tried to address this with my last paragraph in the post that you quoted. I waffle on this point. Trading the player for prospects is definitely better than letting them walk into free agency, but figuring out *when* to trade them is basically going to be impossible, and I think there are other factors to consider (which, again, are in the post you quoted). It's going to be easier for teams to just say to their fans "Well, he left on his own," then justifying trading him if he's still producing at a high level.

I'm sure the Dodgers would like to have Greinke next year, but they were fine to bid for his services again and they're also fine without him. There's less risk without him (going forward given his age) and I think that has value on its own that makes up for the differential caused by downgrading from him to a lesser player in his roster spot/payroll space.

Edit 2: Also Keith Law kind of agrees with me FWIW:

Keith Law said:
That said, Cueto also didn't throw enough strikes after he arrived in Kansas City, and the reason isn't known, at least not to us. The Giants seem to be betting that the True Cueto will return for 2016 and beyond, and they might be placing a particular bet that he'll be healthy and effective enough in Years 1 and 2 that he'll opt out and spare them what could be some ugly subsequent years. Player opt-outs are bad deals for teams on paper, but in Cueto's specific case, in which he might be a terrible long-term risk but an acceptable short-term one, I can at least see San Francisco's argument in favor of giving him the opt-out and making it fairly early within the deal.
 
There's a pretty spirited discussion over this opt out business at the Cards board I frequent since it's believed getting that second opt out is partially why Heyward spurned us for the Cubs. I think most everyone agrees that the opt out puts more of the risk on the team by giving the player more power but people disagree on the extent of said risk.

The team is guaranteeing them, but it's not guaranteed to the team. Player options! The thing is, if the player in question breaks, well, without the opt-out you'd be paying them anyways. An opt-out just gives a lucky team the potential to escape a long-term contract before the player breaks.

And well, yeah, I think every player (sans Bonds) will break eventually. It's a matter of when, and a team can assess this on a case by case basis when deciding how to offer an opt-out structure. I don't think it's counter-intuitive to my argument though because without opt-outs, teams are taking on the risk of a broken player in every deal. With opt-outs, they have a slightly better chance of not getting bogged down with a big money, no value player.

Teams are willing to sign guys to long-term deals into their late 30s because collusion is illegal and the prisoner's dilemma insures that some team is going to make a deal like that, so they basically all have to. They've also done such a good job of limiting the salaries of younger players that most of them can afford an albatross or two and be fine. That doesn't mean that smart teams can't take advantage of teams like the Diamondbacks by letting them absorb the expensive 32+ year old players.
It's a little silly to frame it only as a way that teams can escape a potentially awful backend of a contract. The flip-side to a world without opt outs is that the team gets a relative bargain if the player is locked into a below market rate deal. So it all comes down to whether the team can accurately predict the performance/health of the player and the state of the market in 3, 4 years. The player holds all of the cards since he doesn't have to decide today. Another great point somebody brought up is that a contract without the opt out gives the team more cost certainty - it'll know what obligations it has ahead of time so it can properly budget its expenses when planning out trades or other signings. Having that wild card of a player option potentially throws a monkey wrench into those plans.

Of course, I don't think giving the player that option should necessary be a deal breaker. It's not so much that teams have to spend their $$$ on older free agents sans collusion but in a competitive environment, there will always be someone willing to take on a little bit more risk than you are. If you're risk averse like the Cardinals are, you're likely to miss out on many free agents as other teams gamble more with their contact offers. At some point, a team has to be willing to dive into the deep end if it wants a player badly enough.

That element of risk is basically what separates the larger market teams from the smaller market ones, in terms of the possible number of mulligans a team has at its disposal.
I think the Cards erred too much on the side of caution with Heyward btw
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
It's a little silly to frame it only as a way that teams can escape a potentially awful backend of a contract. The flip-side to a world without opt outs is that the team gets a relative bargain if the player is locked into a below market rate deal. So it all comes down to whether the team can accurately predict the performance/health of the player and the state of the market in 3, 4 years. The player holds all of the cards since he doesn't have to decide today. Another great point somebody brought up is that a contract without the opt out gives the team more cost certainty - it'll know what obligations it has ahead of time so it can properly budget its expenses when planning out trades or other signings. Having that wild card of a player option potentially throws a monkey wrench into those plans.

Of course, I don't think giving the player that option should necessary be a deal breaker. It's not so much that teams have to spend their $$$ on older free agents sans collusion but in a competitive environment, there will always be someone willing to take on a little bit more risk than you are. If you're risk averse like the Cardinals are, you're likely to miss out on many free agents as other teams gamble more with their contact offers. At some point, a team has to be willing to dive into the deep end if it wants a player badly enough.

That element of risk is basically what separates the larger market teams from the smaller market ones, in terms of the possible number of mulligans a team has at its disposal.
I think the Cards erred too much on the side of caution with Heyward btw

It's not the only way. But it's probably the easiest way to escape a bad deal. Dan Szymborski recently did some #math and found that the 10th best contract of $90 million or more dollars is likely to add +2 WAR above the value of the contract. Granted, I'm not sure what the n of the sample is, but it seems there's a better chance of a team either losing out or breaking even on a deal than coming out on top.

A lot of the disagreement here seems to be over the value of potentially having a below-market contract on a good player in the post opt-out years of a contract. I think there's 3 possible outcomes in play: (1) the player performs well throughout the contract and the team has a below-market asset locked up; (2) the player performs at a level that makes him and the team break even on the market value of the contract; (3) the player breaks and the team has a negative-value asset. You can use the expected utility of each outcome to compare the value of each outcome. Expected utility multiplies an outcome's value by the likelihood that happens. This is the part where I could be completely wrong, but I am assuming that the order of likelihood, from highest to lowest, for each option is 3 > 2 > 1, by large margins in each case. By this method, the value of option 1 isn't actually that high because it's very unlikely to happen. Meanwhile, the negative value of option 3 is still probably going to be large enough that option 3 + option 2 + option 1 will still be a negative integer. Given this, you should assume the post opt-out years of a contract will be bad value.

On the point about cost certainty, teams who have handed out contracts with opt-outs shouldn't be betting on players exercising them. So they should still be budgeting around the idea that they'll have to pay for the entire contract. That way they don't get burned, but they might suddenly have extra cash to buy or trade for a younger player or extend a younger player they already have or whatever.

And yeah, I think teams should be willing to pay up for good players and take on the risk of a bad contract. But I also think players should be making at least 90% of the revenue (after accounting for a tax on sports revenue of, say, 70%?). I have little actual interest in seeing teams save money. I just think opt-outs can be a benefit to teams (provided they aren't the ones who get stuck paying $28million/year for the 38 year old).

Side note: I would have given Heyward a 12 year, $480 million contract because I love him and I don't give a fuck. But I'm not rational when it comes to Heyward.
 
I'm not saying there aren't very specific instances where the opt out might end up benefiting the team, I'm saying opt outs are inherently not team friendly. They put all of the risk on the team and none on the player. The Giants would prefer to sign Cueto with no player opt out. They didn't add it in there because it would help them in anyway.
 
It's not the only way. But it's probably the easiest way to escape a bad deal. Dan Szymborski recently did some #math and found that the 10th best contract of $90 million or more dollars is likely to add +2 WAR above the value of the contract. Granted, I'm not sure what the n of the sample is, but it seems there's a better chance of a team either losing out or breaking even on a deal than coming out on top.

A lot of the disagreement here seems to be over the value of potentially having a below-market contract on a good player in the post opt-out years of a contract. I think there's 3 possible outcomes in play: (1) the player performs well throughout the contract and the team has a below-market asset locked up; (2) the player performs at a level that makes him and the team break even on the market value of the contract; (3) the player breaks and the team has a negative-value asset. You can use the expected utility of each outcome to compare the value of each outcome. Expected utility multiplies an outcome's value by the likelihood that happens. This is the part where I could be completely wrong, but I am assuming that the order of likelihood, from highest to lowest, for each option is 3 > 2 > 1, by large margins in each case. By this method, the value of option 1 isn't actually that high because it's very unlikely to happen. Meanwhile, the negative value of option 3 is still probably going to be large enough that option 3 + option 2 + option 1 will still be a negative integer. Given this, you should assume the post opt-out years of a contract will be bad value.

On the point about cost certainty, teams who have handed out contracts with opt-outs shouldn't be betting on players exercising them. So they should still be budgeting around the idea that they'll have to pay for the entire contract. That way they don't get burned, but they might suddenly have extra cash to buy or trade for a younger player or extend a younger player they already have or whatever.
I'm sure all the smart front offices have calculated the probability of each permutation and weighed the risks accordingly. For pitchers, you are probably right about the likelihood the player breaks before the contract ends. Probably less right for position players who aren't signed into their late 30s and beyond (like Heyward).

Regarding cost certainty, yeah, you don't want to spend money you may not have. But planning around the opt out means that part of the budget can't be used until the team knows how the player will act. In a fast moving market, that means potentially missing out on moves that could improve the team if the team knows the $$$ is available. Obviously, the variability of arbitration payouts is similar but the $$$ amount is likely a lot higher for the contracts with opt outs. It's an additional burden on teams that have to adhere to a budget.

I'm not saying there aren't very specific instances where the opt out might end up benefiting the team, I'm saying opt outs are inherently not team friendly. They put all of the risk on the team and none on the player. The Giants would prefer to sign Cueto with no player opt out. They didn't add it in there because it would help them in anyway.
Yep, only guaranteed benefit to the Giants is that it gets Cueto to sign with them instead of with another team.
 

BFIB

Member
The Cards have around $400 mil per the Post Dispatch to spend. Not including Holliday, Molina, Waino which brings the total up around $475 mil.

Time to take a chance Mo.
 
The Cards have around $400 mil per the Post Dispatch to spend. Not including Holliday, Molina, Waino which brings the total up around $475 mil.

Time to take a chance Mo.

Just not sure there are any impact free agents left. I kinda like Upton, but not really sure he's worth the upgrade over Piscotty.

Wonder if Cards could take a page from the Dodgers and Braves and buy some prospects by taking on bad contracts? Like, what would the Sox give up if we took Hanley's contract? Could play him at 1B too

edit: holy shit Hanley is owed $22m annually until 2018 with an option for 2019
 

BFIB

Member
Just not sure there are any impact free agents left. I kinda like Upton, but not really sure he's worth the upgrade over Piscotty.

Wonder if Cards could take a page from the Dodgers and Braves and buy some prospects by taking on bad contracts? Like, what would the Sox give up if we took Hanley's contract? Could play him at 1B too

edit: holy shit Hanley is owed $22m annually until 2018 with an option for 2019

I hear you, but no way would I want the Cards to be that desperate. I know the Cards look at overall value, not just one tool when determining a players worth. But 24th in the majors in offense, Upton, Davis would at least be an improvement. Getting rid of Mabry would help too.
 
Papelbon's no-trade list is out:

Athletics
Blue Jays
Brewers
Diamondbacks
Dodgers
Giants
Indians
Marlins
Orioles
Phillies
Pirates
Rangers
Rockies
Tigers
Twins
White Sox
Yankees
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Some team that he can be traded to should be like, "yeah we'll take him, if you give us Giolito too." Just mess with them.
 
It's a mistake to legally bet on baseball while being banished from the league?

Legal or illegal has nothing to do with it. If guy gets banned from the game for gambling on baseball, then continues to gamble on baseball, then there's no reason he should be reinstated.

Baseball is above the law. It it exempt from anti-trust, and lawmakers trip over themselves trying to please owners and the league. You think something about a player gambling legally or not is even a fly on the windshield?
 
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