Moé/Lolicon

Status
Not open for further replies.
lethial said:
goggles.jpg


I'm curious to know the opinions of the dudes who collect all those dolls and creepy Japanese magazines on this topic.

That pic is just says soo much.

As for the Ecchi mags - a friend of mine collects some of them - but he states they were better between the 70's and the 80's. Not to say there isnt good works but there in a state of confusion/flux on should they go mainstream as the mainstream becomes more like those folk, or are they gonna be mainstream by default? Intresting times.

There was a post on these dolls on this board...dont know the link.
 
After 20 pages of discussion I'm surprised no-one has linked to any fairly detailed explanations of Moe. One of the easiest to read articles with good examples would be Colony Drop's look at the subject. http://www.colonydrop.com/index.php/2009/11/10/moe-studies-the-fetishization-of-mental-illness-early-wip-1?blog=1 It's probably a useful look because it is a well rounded description.

On the other end of the readibility scale is http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2009/Galbraith.html which is essentially an academic paper on the subject. While it does contain pretty much everything you could want to know Moe it is roughly 9000 words long so you'd have to be pretty commited to read the whole thing.

Also what the hell, why does no-one inthe world like Michiko e Hatchin? That show was surprisingly excellent, featured stunning animation and was largely focused on the plights of fairly strong female characters. Quite a few episodes where stand alone episodes yet the whole show felt fairly consistent. Ah well.
 
eggandI said:
The rankings speak for themselves :lol

I see your point, but I don't really find that data as a reliable indicator because it's based on how well-seeded a torrent is (from most number of seeders to downward in number), 10 or more hentai-related results were out of the Top 50, and the DVD releases. Just look at the ratios on those torrents. There's been an inflation of seeding since they lowered the good seed-to-leech ratio from 1.0 to like 0.5 to encourage more leeching. Not to mention a lot of those torrents (haven't checked all yet) are not older than December when they were added.

I would prefer a list like the Dengeki and 2ch one posted a few pages back. I find them more telling especially if the criteria asked was more specific like rank animes between 05-09 or something.

Jexhius said:

Why thank you. Will read later in the afternoon.
 
Jexhius said:
Also what the hell, why does no-one inthe world like Michiko e Hatchin? That show was surprisingly excellent, featured stunning animation and was largely focused on the plights of fairly strong female characters. Quite a few episodes where stand alone episodes yet the whole show felt fairly consistent. Ah well.

The show was pretty good and there are many that like it (I'm one of them).
But the show focuses, as you put it, on the plight of two fairly strong female characters (of which one is a loli).
That's enough to shrink the percentage of people that might be interested, imo.
 
Jexhius said:
Also what the hell, why does no-one inthe world like Michiko e Hatchin? That show was surprisingly excellent, featured stunning animation and was largely focused on the plights of fairly strong female characters. Quite a few episodes where stand alone episodes yet the whole show felt fairly consistent. Ah well.
I've been screaming about this show for quite a while, in this thread as well, but no one seems to care. :(
 
Lain said:
The show was pretty good and there are many that like it (I'm one of them).
But the show focuses, as you put it, on the plight of two fairly strong female characters (of which one is a loli).
That's enough to shrink the percentage of people that might be interested, imo.
Let's not get carried away with this loli branding. You can have children in stories and not sexualize them, you know.

(OP sequence aside)
 
Novid said:
That pic is just says soo much.

As for the Ecchi mags - a friend of mine collects some of them - but he states they were better between the 70's and the 80's. Not to say there isnt good works but there in a state of confusion/flux on should they go mainstream as the mainstream becomes more like those folk, or are they gonna be mainstream by default? Intresting times.

There was a post on these dolls on this board...dont know the link.

Sorry what's Ecchi? I don't remember when, but in one of the pick up threads some guy had magazines with cartoon kids all over them wearing next to nothing.
 
I think ecchi is hentai marketed towards people who don't want to commit fully to being branded a hentai consumer, but still wants that type of content.
 
Brobzoid said:
I've been screaming about this show for quite a while, in this thread as well, but no one seems to care. :(
Not sure what's up in this thread (tastes should be better around here), but yeah, having strong female characters with realistic (non-moe) flaws (and one with well-realized and confident sexuality) limits the appeal of a show pretty fast around most parts of the weeaboonet. The relationship between Michiko, the immature and selfish mother, and daughter Hatchin, who's scrappy and self-reliant from being on her own, feels genuine.

The style, music, settings, and action in the show are all A+. There's a couple of stinker episodes (around ep. 5-7), but the rest is awesome. I especially loved the Wong Kar Wai-inspired lake-hotel episode and the
fucking awesome highway chase
in ep 23 or so.
 
lethial said:
Sorry what's Ecchi? I don't remember when, but in one of the pick up threads some guy had magazines with cartoon kids all over them wearing next to nothing.
Ecchi is the 'i can't believe its not butter' of Hentai.

I dislike how people are using moe and loli as a catchall term for percieved negative aspects.
 
Brobzoid said:
I think ecchi is hentai marketed towards people who don't want to commit fully to being branded a hentai consumer, but still wants that type of content.
It's more like your PG-13 or R-rated sex comedies as opposed to your porno.

Pandaman said:
I dislike how people are using moe and loli as a catchall term for percieved negative aspects.
So you're saying there are aspects of moe and lolicon that are not completely negative and that shouldn't be eradicated?
 
Pandaman said:
it loses alot of merit in the yandere/when they cry section though.

Well then you can always try turning to the rather unfriendly essay. I'm surprised The Anime Encyclopaedia doesn't have a definition of Moe in there. Then again it isn't something that can be easily summed up.

Also the dread spectre that is Moe isn't exactly new http://www.colonydrop.com/index.php/2009/06/28/generic-proto-moe-1986-cartoons-cosmos?blog=1 (Not that I'm trying to sell Colony Drop or anything) Of course now moe is much more refined as a form that can be packaged and sold to people and it dominates the market. Yet the only the reason that it exists as such a dominant market force is because it is guaranteed to sell to it's small but devoted fanbase.

When ever people hark back to anime from the 1980's period it is has to be taken into consideration just how different the economy was in Japan. When you have the bubble growing through the 1980's you have a ludicrous amount of money flowing through the anime industry so it's no surprise that a wide variety of interesting and well animated shows were produced. Yet it has to be emphasised that a fair amount of shows/movies/ova's produced in that decade would never be produced at any other time. Think about Angels Egg - that's a real movie yet no-one would ever have funded such a project at any other time. Or Legend of the Galactic Heroes - a huge series that's hardly going to make much money or have a wide appeal. But after the bubble burst people weren't rolling in money any more - indeed Japan's economy has been on a downwards trend ever since. It's not that there's a lack of creativity in the modern industry by comparison (although there certainly is) and that there's a lack of new talent ready to move into the business (anime probably suffers a talent drain to the much more lucrative video game industry) when you combine that with the silly high prices that DVD's cost in Japan you see how problems can arise. Furthermore there isn't that many great reason to get into anime, long working hours, poor pay, working on maybe some in-betweening animation? Those are only some of the factors that affect the state of anime today.

Short Version : There any many, many factors that have shaped the current anime industry, it's not that everyone suddenly decided to start making crap. It's just that there's a security in making shows that will make money - as moe shows will. Heck, it's not as if the past decade has really even been bad, there were still lots of interesting shows, although the last two years were pretty slim on excitement.
 
jiji said:
So you're saying there are aspects of moe and lolicon that are not completely negative and that shouldn't be eradicated?
yes.

exhibit A:
opuvqw.jpg


'ARIA is moe' = correct
'ARIA is moe shit' = punch to the fucking face.

exhibit B:
1253u60.jpg


'Haibane renmei is moe' = correct
'haibane renmei is moe shit' = rocket punch from lovecraftian horror loli

exhibit c:
jkal3l.jpg


'Mei is moe as all fuck' = correct
'Mei is oversexualized pedo bait' = god fucking damnit.


people seem to forget that alot if not most of Moe is intended to be nonsexual. But hey, why watch a good show when you can rage over shitty-porn-show-of-the-season as if it represents the entire genre.

As for loli, I honestly don't care. they're moving pictures, i have trouble being bothered by such things, if there are a legion of pedos out there supporting a harmless legal alternative to child exploitation then i say that's reason enough to keep it around.
 
Geneijin said:
You'd be surprised what fans would think.

As someone who watched Lucky Star, the Konata-Kagami yuri thing some fans said was there baffled me. I just don't see it and I still don't.
Better than Kagami/Tsuka--

I'm not even going to go there.
 
I wonder how many lolifans bought Fantastic Children only to throw it away in frustration because it wasn't what they thought it would be.
 
Pandaman said:
Ecchi is the 'i can't believe its not butter' of Hentai.
In terms of how they're used by anime/manga fans:
Ecchi = Pervy. Needlessly large breasts, panty shots, etc.
Hentai = Porn. X number of pegs into Y number of holes.

Pandaman = Apologist of creepy shows that don't necessarily fit into terms used in the present discussion.
 
Pandaman said:
somebody voted that Lain was moe? the fuck?

but yea, the haibane anime fits snuggly into moe, i mean its basically a long break the cutie plot with a daughter character as your protagonist. how isn't it moe?
You're reading what you want to see into it. If it's not intended as moe, it's not moe.
 
Halycon said:
Better than Kagami/Tsuka--

I'm not even going to go there.

Nice catch on my edit.

And also, you have saddened me by mentioning that.

GDGF said:
I wonder how many lolifans bought Fantastic Children only to throw it away in frustration because it wasn't what they thought it would be.

I think you're mixing moe and loli together. I'm sad to say this regarding Fantastic Children (Voyage is awesome), but lolis can still like lolis without moe moments.
 
Pandaman said:
yes.

'Haibane renmei is moe' = correct

people seem to forget that alot if not most of Moe is intended to be nonsexual. But hey, why watch a good show when you can rage over shitty-porn-show-of-the-season as if it represents the entire genre.

As for loli, I honestly don't care. they're moving pictures, i have trouble being bothered by such things, if there are a legion of pedos out there supporting a harmless legal alternative to child exploitation then i say that's reason enough to keep it around.

I don't think anyone has claimed that 'loli' porn is as bad as 'real' pedophile pornography. Yet that doesn't mean we have to claim that it has any redemable features, the least of which would be to keep pedophiles entertained so they don't go and get 'real' porn.

Furthermore the two shows you mentioned aren't really 'moe' shows. Moe is a certain trait that characters have. If the show contains certain characters who could be classified as 'moe' that doesn't automatically make it a moe show. A moe show has to have few redeeming features beyond that, it's aim is simply to provide a whole host of these characters in situations where they can be super moe. Azumanga Daioh may have moe character types but it is clearly a comedy.
 
Geneijin said:
but lolis can still like lolis without moe moments.

What? translation?

Also, pretty sure anyone who identifies themselves as a "lolicon" is a pedophile. No Japanese word is going to change that.
 
eggandI said:
What? translation?

Moe and loli have always been two separate enough definitions to me. loli I would generalize as someone sexually attractive to young looking girls while moe is similar to saying "kawaii," or refering to something cute a character does. I never saw moe as meaning exclusively young "budding" girls in cute fashion really (or something like that).

Edit:

Yeah, I meant lolicons, or pedophiles, pretty much. My mistake.
 
Jexhius said:
I don't think anyone has claimed that 'loli' porn is as bad as 'real' pedophile pornography. Yet that doesn't mean we have to claim that it has any redemable features, the least of which would be to keep pedophiles entertained so they don't go and get 'real' porn.
why would that be the 'least of which'? If it prevents just one law abiding pedophile from monitarily supporting child abusers, abductors or worse yet becoming one his or herself, then that would be the greatest of reasons to justify anything.

Furthermore the two shows you mentioned aren't really 'moe' shows. Moe is a certain trait that characters have. If the show contains certain characters who could be classified as 'moe' that doesn't automatically make it a moe show. A moe show has to have few redeeming features beyond that, it's aim is simply to provide a whole host of these characters in situations where they can be super moe. Azumanga Daioh may have moe character types but it is clearly a comedy.
they are moe shows in every sense of the word, they are character driven sequential shows that feature prominent 'weak' and 'cute' characters growing through their difficulties. the idea is you d'awwwwwwwwwwwww and want them to succeed at whatever they're doing, its textbook nonsexualized moe.

this is exactly what i meant earlier, you're deriding moe down to be nothing but selfless bobblehead lolis wandering around being vapid for 26 episodes.

Geneijin said:
Moe and loli have always been two separate enough definitions to me. loli I would generalize as someone sexually attractive to young looking girls while moe is similar to saying "kawaii," or refering to something cute a character does. I never saw moe as meaning exclusively young "budding" girls in cute fashion really (or something like that).
I'd just like to second this distinction.

its just unfortunate that usually tatseful moe characters become lolibait when the fans get to them. there are some nice exceptions though. i'm happy to say i've never seen haibane or aria porn and i don't want that to change.
 
Pandaman said:
well, aside from the italian characters love of boobs it isn't sexual per say, but its rife with fanservice.

for example, in one episode a character steals another characters panties, which leads to the victim stealing yet another chracters panties which leads to... well, suffice to say there was atleast one pantiless character in every scene. keep in mind that pants were never invented in strike witches.

funnily enough, it was a surprisingly accurate portrayal of the ace the character was based on.

WTF? Why would you even want to watch lolicon crap like this? And this is coming from someone who likes Queen's Blade.
 
Pandaman said:
I'd just like to second this distinction.

its just unfortunate that usually tatseful moe characters become lolibait when the fans get to them. there are some nice exceptions though. i'm happy to say i've never seen haibane or aria porn and i don't want that to change.

Yeah. It disgusted me when I first encountered what those exact fans had done to Air TV.
 
Pandaman said:
they are moe shows in every sense of the word, they are character driven sequential shows that feature prominent 'weak' and 'cute' characters growing through their difficulties. the idea is you d'awwwwwwwwwwwww and want them to succeed at whatever they're doing, its textbook nonsexualized moe.

this is exactly what i meant earlier, you're deriding moe down to be nothing but selfless bobblehead lolis wandering around being vapid for 26 episodes.

You said it was a moe show yet just because it features 'cute' characters doesn't make it a moe show. A moe show is presumably a show created to centre around moe characters doing cute things - some shows may fit that description but not many. When a show, like Haibane Renmei, appears it may illicit a 'moe' response in the viewer yet the show is built around a premise with characters and some slowly filled in story line. It's is not this product that is designed to cater to a certain fanbase (one can hope) To make things somewhat clearer I'll borrow a defintion from Patrick Galbraith, whose essay I linked to above "...the word moe indicates a response to fantasy characters, not a specific style, character type or relational pattern." Any character who draws such response out of the audience is 'moe', be it in anime or films or any medium. It is simply the anime industy that has turned this response, or feeling, into a brand and fetishised it and sold it. When people see a show that is designed soley to create this one response they have every right to not watch it - yet if a whole host of shows are like this then there may be nothing much to watch.



Neither does Moe have to mean 'lolis being vapid' - you can have older characters or male characters that are illict the 'moe' response. It is quite clear that Moe and Loli are seperate things, except in the title of this thread.
 
Read the colony drop article and it came off as sensationistic. You can make any kind of argument if you deconstruct all the characters down and focus on specific tropes.
 
Jexhius said:
You said it was a moe show yet just because it features 'cute' characters doesn't make it a moe show. A moe show is presumably a show created to centre around moe characters doing cute things - some shows may fit that description but not many. When a show, like Haibane Renmei, appears it may illicit a 'moe' response in the viewer yet the show is built around a premise with characters and some slowly filled in story line. It's is not this product that is designed to cater to a certain fanbase (one can hope)
this is where the problem is, you're looking at moe as if it must be conscious milking of the otaku and that a moe show couldn't possibly have any depth to it. both haibane and ARIA revolve around protagonists who are unabashedly moe, its cute scene followed by cute scene followed by cute scene, it also so happens that these scenes correlate with a well written character driven story, but that doesn't change the fact that the characters are moe and do cute things alot.

2hquiao.jpg



To make things somewhat clearer I'll borrow a defintion from Patrick Galbraith, whose essay I linked to above "...the word moe indicates a response to fantasy characters, not a specific style, character type or relational pattern." Any character who draws such response out of the audience is 'moe', be it in anime or films or any medium.
I agree, although i might not over the specific response a moe character may invoke. i would say there are several, both sexual and 'innocent'.

It is simply the anime industy that has turned this response, or feeling, into a brand and fetishised it and sold it. When people see a show that is designed soley to create this one response they have every right to not watch it - yet if a whole host of shows are like this then there may be nothing much to watch.
no argument here, there certainly is an active milking of the fanbase by dailing the moe up to 11. Remember i'm only objecting to people using the term solely for the negative conotations that you just described.
 
Pandaman said:
this is where the problem is, you're looking at moe as if it must be conscious milking of the otaku and that a moe show couldn't possibly have any depth to it. both haibane and ARIA revolve around protagonists who are unabashedly moe, its cute scene followed by cute scene followed by cute scene, it also so happens that these scenes correlate with a well written character driven story, but that doesn't change the fact that the characters are moe and do cute things alot.

I'd call this a confusion of definiton - a show with moe aspects need not be a moe show - it may just contain those aspects. I'm not saying moe is essentially a good thing or a bad thing for a show, or even if its a type of show or character. It's is simply that reaction. Yet when most people talk of moe they are implying the show that contains nothing but moe, no characters really, just a vessel for merchandising.

anotheriori said:
Read the colony drop article and it came off as sensationistic. You can make any kind of argument if you deconstruct all the characters down and focus on specific tropes.

I don't really know if they are making an argument so much as listing off character types and linking it all together into one web. And if they are makign an argument, which they may be, isn't the deconstruction of characters necessary to explain any potential argument?

And surely that breakdown and deconstruction is the very point of the moe phenomenon, at least for otaku. How else would a term like tsundre exist, and people a well known character type? From the comments to the article dotdash explains that "Moé is the result of the consumer as an active participant. It comes from the otaku, using his implacable collector's urge to break down and classify, deconstructing the repeated elements of the product and arranging them in a kind of database. In anime made under this consumption model the database is supreme and the narrative, like the characterisation, is merely a set of signifiers to be mixed, matched and reassembled." They key here is really the merchandising potential.

Which is essentially what is also mentioned in the essay "This is what Azuma refers to as 'the database,' a collection of design and personality points, characters and situations that can produce moe. Narratives and characters are deconstructed – i.e., emptied of depth and removed from context – and rearticulated in multiple ways by consumers in pursuit of moe."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom