Support NeoGAF

[Gilatif]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,143556,00.html


LOS ANGELES, Calif. — The line between virtual reality and the real world in today's online computer games is getting dangerous, some critics argue.

"Any hobby can be a good or a bad thing — it just depends on whether or not you take care of your life while you're enjoying your hobbies," said Andrew Marks, a player of EverQuest (search), a popular game that allow thousands of PC, Macintosh or Sony PlayStation users to take on different roles competing and cooperating with each other in a fantasy environment.



But critics say sometimes players can't turn off the virtual life and return to the real one.

"You don't eat meals, or you actually have people bring food to you," said Dr. David Greenfield of the Center for Internet Studies. "Or, you keep food stashed next to the computer because you literally do not want to get up from the computer."

Players of EverQuest and other "massively multiplayer online role-playing games" can now play against opponents around the world thanks to the huge, make-believe online environment. This year, more than a million people are expected to plug in and play.

The pastime can be so addictive for some that they have given EverQuest a sinister nickname — "EverCrack."

In 2001, 21-year-old Shawn Woolley (search), a Wisconsin man who suffered from epilepsy, depression and schizoid personality disorder, moved back in with his mother and quit his job.

Not long afterward, he killed himself over a personal betrayal — in the EverQuest world.

His mother, Liz Woolley, found the body.

"There he was sitting, on his chair, in front of the computer that had the EverQuest game on, with the rifle," Woolley painfully recalled. "I didn't stay in there very long."

Woolley turned her grief into action and launched Online Gamers Anonymous. Thousands of people have used the Web site to escape the grip of games that Woolley insists are made to be addictive, she said.

"They are designed to keep people coming back, they put hooks in, they play mind games with people to keep 'em in there and they absolutely know what they're doing, and they're doing it in the name of money," she said.

These interactive online games do charge players a monthly fee, but Sony (search) and other companies that make the games insist their products are harmless and nothing more than entertainment.

It's up to the gamers to prioritize their lives responsibly, they insist.

 

[mumu]

"They are designed to keep people coming back, they put hooks in, they play mind games with people to keep 'em in there and they absolutely know what they're doing, and they're doing it in the name of money," she said.

I agree. Save those poor bastards.

 

[Gek54]

What was he doing playing videogames with epilepsy?

 

[Unison]

a Wisconsin man who suffered from epilepsy, depression and schizoid personality disorder, moved back in with his mother and quit his job.

I blame Everquest for this man's failed life!

 

[mosaic]

What was he doing playing videogames with epilepsy?

Well, he had to stop watching Pokemon....

 

[aoi tsuki]

What was he doing playing videogames with epilepsy?

i've got epilepsy. i've never had a problem with videogames or flashing lights.

 

[Gilatif]

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, the addy for onling gamers anonymous is

http://www.olganon.org/


There's even a message board!

 

[Magnus]

It's up to the gamers to prioritize their lives responsibly, they insist.

And that should be the final, end-all statement on every discussion of this issue.

 

[Eggo]

http://www.olganon.org/

I, I don't have a problem!

...is the server back up yet?

 

[Unison]

Actually, it's cool that she's forming this. There probably are people out there who need help. It's better than having her sue Sony.

 

[mumu]

And that should be the final, end-all statement on every discussion of this issue.

If some guys kills himself over Everquest, you can't tell me he was prioritizing his live responsibly.

 

[olimario]

Aren't online gamers already anonymous? I doubt somebody's real name is 'd3m0n_sl4y3r'.

 

[Mzo]

Good think I'm not weak and pathetic, then I might become addicted to a video game and kill myself.

 

[Deg]

Well it happens so it has to be done

 

[iapetus]

Actually, it's cool that she's forming this.

No, it's not. Have you read the site?

Step 3 of their 12-step process for giving up online gaming is "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Step 5 involves having a chat with God.

Step 12 is experiencing a spiritual awakening.

 

[Goreomedy]

His mother, Liz Woolley, found the body.

"There he was sitting, on his chair, in front of the computer that had the EverQuest game on, with the rifle," Woolley painfully recalled. "I didn't stay in there very long."

At least she had enough class not to camp his corpse.

"They are designed to keep people coming back, they put hooks in, they play mind games with people to keep 'em in there and they absolutely know what they're doing, and they're doing it in the name of money," she said.

Maybe she should focus more on what caused her son's depression and personality disorder and less on the game he used to fill that void in his life?

This is a question about personal responsibility, but those in the entertainment industry shouldn't be expected to pay the consequences for someone else's self-neglect.

 

[Goreomedy]

Have you read the site?

Step 3 of their 12-step process for giving up online gaming is "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Step 5 involves having a chat with God.

Step 12 is experiencing a spiritual awakening.

Yeah, a bit crazy that. I was just going to leave this thread alone until I visited the site. A lot of blame being thrown around, and no one with the courage to examine what's really wrong with them.

 

[DarienA]

Call me callous... but I think you're a pretty weak willed person if you do some of the stuff I keep reading that online gamers end up doing... or not doing. Which alludes to problems that were already there WAY before these folks started gaming online.

 

[Jonnyram]

What was he doing playing videogames with epilepsy?

Never mind that - what's he doing playing an MMORPG when he suffers from depression and schizoid personality disorder.

 

[Gek54]

Darwin award.

 

[fossen]

No, it's not. Have you read the site?

Step 3 of their 12-step process for giving up online gaming is "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

Step 5 involves having a chat with God.

Step 12 is experiencing a spiritual awakening.

This is completely standard 12 Step stuff.

You may not agree with it, but it's not like she's some fringe lunatic. These are the 12 steps behind AA and any other group modeled after it.

And as Unison said, as long as Step 1 isn't "Sue someone else for your lack of self-control.", I'm cool with it.

 

[fossen]

Though I will say this about something on her site:

Please sign your copy (after you break it), with the date, and your screen name or your character’s name in the game. We’ll showcase the most creative ones here.

"Sign your copy"?

How bloody anonymous is it when she wants you to sign your name, then put it up on teh Intarweb?

 

[UltimateMarioMan]

Yeah MMORPG's are addictive...for a few months until you get tired of them. This mother is the one who can't grasp reality. If it hadn't been the game something else would have triggered this. He had serious mental problems and SHOULD NOT have been playing the game in the first place. Someone needs to form "Mothers in denial anonymous".

 

[duckroll]

Any of you who want to start shooting off your mouth about how the mother is in denial, the game is not to blame at all, and people should completely ignore the problems of online addiction need to shut the fuck up unless you're parents with teen kids of your own.

I'll state this clearly and simply, you may not have a problem, but some people DO. It's a very real thing. Sure it's a avenue for them to escape from their real problems, blahblashblah deal with the problem not the game blahblahbalh, so tell me, how many of you talk to your parents about what you do online, all your life problems, etc on a daily basis. If you do, great, personally I communicate with my parents well too, but some people don't have that luxury. It's not always the parents fault either, some people have insecurity and communication problems. The last thing they need is after escaping into a MMORPG or internet chatrooms to escape from their problems, to not also have a way out. This is a way out for people who HAVE problems and find themselves addicted to online games who want to get out. This doesn't mean that everyone who plays MMORPGs have a problem, some people do, this is a great idea. If you don't have the problem don't put down other people or mock solutions like you know any better. GAF needs to grow the fuck up, oh wait, did I just say that? GAF and grow up? Hahahahaha, guess I'm the delusional one.

 

[akascream]

:lol

 

[fossen]

Yeah MMORPG's are addictive...for a few months until you get tired of them. This mother is the one who can't grasp reality. If it hadn't been the game something else would have triggered this. He had serious mental problems and SHOULD NOT have been playing the game in the first place. Someone needs to form "Mothers in denial anonymous".

My common sense says I shouldn't get into this, but:

Welcome to addiction, friends. It's always personal issues at the root of addictions (or at least that's the belief of any 12-step program). Someone is trying to escape into something: drugs, sex, alchohol, an online game. Yes, it would have been something else if not videogames ..... but it wasn't.

All this really says is that if you are addicted to online games, and can't break free, you need to get help with the issues driving you to it. She's not calling for legislation, she's not suing, she's providing a lifeline to people to have a problem. She also - nowhere I can find - indicates that all online gamers have a problem.

Don't know why the hell everyone wants to take potshots at someone who is not suing or calling for legislation, but instead asking people to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Rahul]

Any of you who want to start shooting off your mouth about how the mother is in denial, the game is not to blame at all, and people should completely ignore the problems of online addiction need to shut the fuck up unless you're parents with teen kids of your own.

I'll state this clearly and simply, you may not have a problem, but some people DO. It's a very real thing. Sure it's a avenue for them to escape from their real problems, blahblashblah deal with the problem not the game blahblahbalh, so tell me, how many of you talk to your parents about what you do online, all your life problems, etc on a daily basis. If you do, great, personally I communicate with my parents well too, but some people don't have that luxury. It's not always the parents fault either, some people have insecurity and communication problems. The last thing they need is after escaping into a MMORPG or internet chatrooms to escape from their problems, to not also have a way out. This is a way out for people who HAVE problems and find themselves addicted to online games who want to get out. This doesn't mean that everyone who plays MMORPGs have a problem, some people do, this is a great idea. If you don't have the problem don't put down other people or mock solutions like you know any better. GAF needs to grow the fuck up, oh wait, did I just say that? GAF and grow up? Hahahahaha, guess I'm the delusional one.

ducky nails it

EDIT: another case of Google hilarity? check the foxnews article and then see what kind of google ads are on there :B

 

[akascream]

 

[Haibane]

Apparently she was planning to sue Sony, but I can't find any online references to an actual lawsuit being filed.

"She is now considering suing Sony. At the least, she wants Sony to include a warning label, saying that Everquest may be a risk for some people."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/17/48hours/main525965.shtml

"Because EverQuest figures so prominently in the last days of her son's life, Elizabeth said she plans to sue the company to find out what role it may have played. She also wants to warn players of its potential for addiction."
http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,51490,00.html

 

[iapetus]

You may not agree with it, but it's not like she's some fringe lunatic.

No, you're right there. Does being a mainstream lunatic make it any better?

 

[Foobar]

Actually, it's cool that she's forming this. There probably are people out there who need help. It's better than having her sue Sony.

She already tried that, I think.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Though I will say this about something on her site:



"Sign your copy"?

How bloody anonymous is it when she wants you to sign your name, then put it up on teh Intarweb?

But she wants you to sign it "Captain Bilforn" or whatever.

 

[fossen]

But she wants you to sign it "Captain Bilforn" or whatever.

nope. Sign it, date it, AND add your character name.

As the images demonstrate:
http://www.olganon.org/Gamer/Recovery/Break_CDs_/break_cds_.html

 

[Mzo]

At least she had enough class not to camp his corpse.

This is the funniest shit I've read online all week, and nobody gave him props. For shame.

 

[Madrin]

I wonder if it they'll soon start putting warnings of the addictiveness of MMORPGs on the boxes or opening screens of them.

I've never played one before, but after hearing all of these addiction horror stories, I'm somewhat intrigued.

 

[fossen]

No, you're right there. Does being a mainstream lunatic make it any better?

I'm not saying I agree with it, but the Twelve Steps have helped a whole lot of people, including numerous member of my family. I personally think it's a bit of claptrap, but if it works .... I don't have a big problem with it.

I'm just saying that it's not like she made these up off the top of her head, these are pretty tried and true, and have done a lot of good for other people with problems. No one assumes that AA is attacking the alchohol industry, yet it's being assumed that admitting some people can't put gaming in proper perspective is some kind of attack.

 

[duckroll]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but the Twelve Steps have helped a whole lot of people, including numerous member of my family. I personally think it's a bit of claptrap, but if it works .... I don't have a big problem with it.

I'm just saying that it's not like she made these up off the top of her head, these are pretty tried and true, and have done a lot of good for other people with problems. No one assumes that AA is attacking the alchohol industry, yet it's being assumed that admitting some people can't put gaming in proper perspective is some kind of attack.

Don't bother. The people posting here are obviously the type that don't bother about other people. If they don't have the problem it's best to pretend no one does. It's great to point and laugh at people and systems set up to help people that aren't you isn't it iapetus. Anyone religious is a nutjob. Anyone who wants to help people with a problem using their religion is a nutjob. Hell anyone who DARES to even IMPLY that games could have different effect on people other than yourself HAS TO BE A NUTJOB! Right? Oh except, no.

 

[iapetus]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but the Twelve Steps have helped a whole lot of people, including numerous member of my family. I personally think it's a bit of claptrap, but if it works .... I don't have a big problem with it.

There's some sensible stuff in the twelve steps as well. I just think it can probably work without the element of religious indoctrination. Still, if you're going to take advantage of people, might as well be when they're at their weakest, yes?

Don't bother. The people posting here are obviously the type that don't bother about other people. If they don't have the problem it's best to pretend no one does. It's great to point and laugh at people and systems set up to help people that aren't you isn't it iapetus. Anyone religious is a nutjob.

If you'd care to get off your high horse and join the rest of us on the ground perhaps you might find some time for reading, then you'd see that your pathetic straw men aren't fooling anyone. Nice self-righteous rant, though. I enjoyed it - seven out of ten.

Now that you're back on the ground and remembering how to read, you'll see that I haven't pointed and laughed at people for suffering from gaming addiction, because I recognise it as a real problem for some people (as others have pointed out, not necessarily caused by the gaming primarily, but with the addiction being a symptom of more deep-seated problems).

If you've read any of the religion debates you'll also have seen that I don't believe anyone religious is a nutjob, and I've taken people to task for taking just that stance.

What I object to is a 'help' program that seems to be at least partly designed to take people at a weak and suggestible stage of their lives and indoctrinate them into a religion. I find that pretty fucking offensive on all fronts.

But you know, to throw your attitude back at you, ANYONE who doesn't agree with TAKING ADVANTAGE of people suffering from MENTAL PROBLEMS is THOUGHTLESS AND INSENSITIVE.

Except, no.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Reads 12 step program. I don't believe in God. I guess I'm screwed.

 

[duckroll]

There's some sensible stuff in the twelve steps as well. I just think it can probably work without the element of religious indoctrination. Still, if you're going to take advantage of people, might as well be when they're at their weakest, yes?

Look, all this anti-religious shit is really pissing me off. You don't like it, fine. Some people are religious and what is this about "taking advantage" of people? If you think that spreading religion is taking advantage of people, then if a friend shows you a new console and encourages you to buy it, he must be TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOU TOO! No it can't be from the goodness of his own heart because he likes the console and believes you'll like it too, HE MUST BE WORKING FOR THE FUCKING GAME COMPANY! RESIST!

 

[iapetus]

If you think that spreading religion is taking advantage of people

No, I think that attempting to claim that turning to religion is a necessary step to recovery from a severe psychological illness and pushing it upon people who are - by the nature of their state - susceptible to pressure of that sort is taking advantage of people.

Again, much as you might like to see 'anti-religious shit' here, there isn't any. Feel free to spread your faith to people who can take a rational view of it and decide for themselves whether they want to subscribe to it.

 

[duckroll]

No, I think that attempting to claim that turning to religion is a necessary step to recovery from a severe psychological illness and pushing it upon people who are - by the nature of their state - susceptible to pressure of that sort is taking advantage of people.

The thing about these help groups is that they're usually religious in nature because being in a religious community they already have a foundation of group sharing and so on. Group help programs like these are an extension of it. I can see where you're coming from but if you think about it, are there any non-religious people taking up the effort to have something like this? The fact that there is usually no non-religious version does not mean the religious communities are "taking advantage". Instead of whining about them "taking advantage" why don't you start up help groups for the non-religious with your own time and money since you feel these people are being taken advantage of? Provide a positive alternative if you don't approve of this. Attacking people for wanting to help isn't going to get you anywhere, if you feel so strongly maybe it's time to get off your ass and do something instead of limiting it to complains.

 

[iapetus]

I can see where you're coming from but if you think about it, are there any non-religious people taking up the effort to have something like this?

http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/ among others.

Instead of whining about them "taking advantage" why don't you start up help groups for the non-religious with your own time and money since you feel these people are being taken advantage of?

Because I'm not a very nice person, because I don't have the right skills, and because such organisations do already exist. Besides, if I set up organisations to counter everything I find offensive, there wouldn't be enough hours in the day.

I can tell you this, though. Step 3 of my recovery scheme would not read "You must acknowledge that there is no such thing as God, that responsibility for and freedom from your addiction can only come through belief in a world ordered strictly by a purely secular view of science."

 

[duckroll]

http://www.cfiwest.org/sos/ among others.



Because I'm not a very nice person, because I don't have the right skills, and because such organisations do already exist. Besides, if I set up organisations to counter everything I find offensive, there wouldn't be enough hours in the day.

I can tell you this, though. Step 3 of my recovery scheme would not read "You must acknowledge that there is no such thing as God, that responsibility for and freedom from your addiction can only come through belief in a world ordered strictly by a purely secular view of science."

Fair enough. I can accept that. But I'll just point out the "12 steps" isn't a mandatory thing. It's just a basic guideline and it's specific to any one religion. So they're not suckering people into anything, its just easier if you already have a religion and you use that to ease into it. I do think I might have been a little too hostile today, but the some of the other posts really upset me in general because of the lack of respect and general callousness. I think it's great that there's someone out there trying to do something to help and it just seemed like you were jumping on them just because it SEEMED like they were promoting a religion (which they're not).

 

[Nikashi]

The facts of this particular case show that the person who offed himself was already suffering from numerious psychological disorders, and I think it's short-sighted at the least to go saying that Everquest's addictiveness 'caused' the death. That's like blaming the car for a drunk driver's crash (although I quite understand that drinking is an option whereas schizophenia and epilepsy aren't, there's still a corrolation).

I think that the page itself centered around converting to Christianity is also a bad idea, as it seems to be placing the themes of the game in a bad light as well.

 

[Kai Dracon]

On this issue I find myself squarely in the middle of the road. I do think that many gamers laugh and shrug off stuff like this, just as they laugh and shrug off virtually ANY criticism of videogame culture - say, like honest concerns about incredibly violent content and children. (We don't question R ratings for movies and that small children shouldn't be taken to a bloodbath slasher film, yet get furious and mocking when the media spazzes out that 8 year olds are playing gib-fest combat games.)

I also think people do need to be a lot more responsible for themselves, and even that just maybe, the same current generation of teen and young adult culture that laughs and shrugs off serious issues like this, contributes to people not taking things seriously, and screwing around when they should be paying more attention to their life. As far as this particular mother, I could do without the religious connotations, if only because they should realize those are going to turn away some "rebellious" age teens, who will feel they've a sermon being shoved at them. There's always a "God Vs Everything" attitude that seems to creep in with stuff like that.

Also, I will say that I do think there is valid criticism of companies who produce MMORPGs, and those companies' refusal to acknowledge ANYTHING or even sponser a real study on the problem. I do feel that the structure of MMORPGS is artificially contrived to force more play time than is really required or even a good idea. If they had depth that simply allowed people to get some extra benefits from sinking more time in, it'd be one thing. But too many of them seem impossible to play and keep up with anyone else without a massive time investment. Their fees are also just too expensive for the service they provide, and I find it interesting that few of them offer any package discounts for special deals - for instance, if you find you like an MMO odds are you're gonna be playing it for 1, 2, or 3 years. Where's the discount deal for purchasing a year or two (or even five, for a big discount) in advance? They want steady users more than anything, right?

I think mainstream observers who glance at the MMORPG world and see a big racket have some good reason to. While they don't understand the nuances and some of the true nature of the videogame community, they're also not blinded by being too close to the problem.

 

[Kai Dracon]

The facts of this particular case show that the person who offed himself was already suffering from numerious psychological disorders, and I think it's short-sighted at the least to go saying that Everquest's addictiveness 'caused' the death. That's like blaming the car for a drunk driver's crash (although I quite understand that drinking is an option whereas schizophenia and epilepsy aren't, there's still a corrolation).

I think that the page itself centered around converting to Christianity is also a bad idea, as it seems to be placing the themes of the game in a bad light as well.

A point I meant to add in my commentary, is that MMORPG companies are, IMHO, being exceedingly irresponsible by refusing to deal with the fact that there are people out there with real problems who are going to play these games. And that due to the nature of the games as they now stand (in general), they're a lot more dangerous to such people than I feel is reasonable. To make an analogy, it seems something like an auto maker equipping their cars with beer can dispensers. Sure, sure, the car isn't technically causing the driver to drink - but come ON, when do we have to recongize the unreasonable?

Also, yes, one of my big problems with the Christianity angle is that reminds me a little of the mother (I forget her name) who in the early 1980s began a religious crusade against AD&D based on largely demonizing the RPG hobby, after her son killed himself and she found out he played some AD&D - ignoring all the other problems in his life, and that he was in danger without AD&D in the picture.

 

[OneFiftyOne]

People blaming the entertainment industry, and not their own failure as parents, for what happens to their kids? When the fuck did this start happening? :rolleyes

 

[duckroll]

OBVIOUSLY NO ONE READS OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS HERE!

The group does NOT require or ask anyone to convert to CHRISTIANITY. Maybe if you bothered to READ the site instead of assuming you would know better. There's no Christianity angle, it's simply a belief that spiritual awakening can help you overcome your weaknesses. The god/higher being is generic and there's no "conversion". Also the 12 steps are NOT mandatory but simply something to ease people into the process of recovery and like it or not, many people ARE religious so this helps them on a personal level. If they're not well, they can ignore it if they choose to. The group help revolves around you talking about your problems.

Also can we STOP this fucking "failure as parents" bullshit? I'll like to see any of you try to bring up a kid, and then have him kill himself because of his OWN personal problems, find him dead in his room in front of his computer with Everquest on and then have people accuse you have being a FAILURE AS A PARENT when you try to help others with problems like your son did before it's too late. Less talk, more action. Talk is cheap especially when you don't know the person and are free to make broad accusations and assumptions without having to ever worry about being accurate or even respectful.

 

[Sein]

A point I meant to add in my commentary, is that MMORPG companies are, IMHO, being exceedingly irresponsible by refusing to deal with the fact that there are people out there with real problems who are going to play these games. And that due to the nature of the games as they now stand (in general), they're a lot more dangerous to such people than I feel is reasonable. To make an analogy, it seems something like an auto maker equipping their cars with beer can dispensers. Sure, sure, the car isn't technically causing the driver to drink - but come ON, when do we have to recongize the unreasonable?

I find your analogy incredibly inapt. A better analogy, I think, would be the following scenario: Suppose that group of people claims that Coke is addictive. Does the Coca-Cola Company have a responsibility to add vinegar to its formula to ween off certain customers who can't control themselves? This would harm the company and the majority of its customers for the benefit of an abberant few.

As between the manufacturer and the individual, where lies responsiblity for the individual's lack of self-control? The question answers itself.