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[Ass of Can Whooping]

Huh, It worked. I respect the hustle. Good for thomas.

 

[Dazraell]

Ori and the blind forest sold about 10 million copies. About 4.1 of that was Steam.

Bruh, did you just lectured the guy from the studio that made Ori about sales of their own game? lol

 

[nemiroff]

You have to a complete moron to get owned by Jez Corden of all people.

Coincidentally I was intrigued by the game and almost got it two days ago. This whole mess makes me think any reviews of any future patches or content updates are not to be trusted.

His entire spiel about being Take Two's ugly step child is something else too (especially considering that they praised the game publicly).

Who the fuck pays many millions to buy an unproven IP because they DON'T want a big publisher in their corner?

Perhaps this post exemplifies the meaninglessly hostile context Thomas referred to. If facts and context truly matter, we should at least be more receptive to viewpoints that go beyond the typical clickbait grifter story (especially when we have the Moon Studios CEO here in this very thread).

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

They want more reviews and sales for an Early Access game? How about you finish the game and release it first as a fullly complete product before you ask people to commit. Next thign you know, developers will be asking to leave reviews on demos.

 

[Astray]

Perhaps this post exemplifies the meaninglessly hostile context Thomas referred to. If facts and context truly matter, we should at least be more receptive to viewpoints that go beyond the typical clickbait grifter story (especially when we have the Moon Studios CEO here in this very thread).

There's no missing context here though.

He's the one who wrote what he wrote on his discord server, no one forced him to do that and no one distorted his words either. They posted them verbatim.

If anything, he's the one who whined about bad reviews of his design choices and tried to remove context there and make them about something they're not.

 

[Roman Empire]

I bought the game and welcome the changes they are making like the status upgrade system to a class-based system, but there isn't much that can be done in this case as the game is still in early access.

 

[howitis3]

This game was not review bombed. People were legitimately upset with its direction.

 

[near]

Perhaps this post exemplifies the meaninglessly hostile context Thomas referred to. If facts and context truly matter, we should at least be more receptive to viewpoints that go beyond the typical clickbait grifter story (especially when we have the Moon Studios CEO here in this very thread).

I don't think I've been hostile towards Mahler. Some of my posts echo points raised in Jez's article, and to be clear, those points were being discussed here before the article even came out. I've pressed him a bit, but always in good faith, as both a fan and a consumer. But just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I'll overlook things that don't add up. I'm calling it how I see it because that's how honest feedback works.

I genuinely appreciate Mahler being on GAF and engaging with the community, and overall, people here have been respectful toward him. But let's not twist the narrative, he's not a victim on GAF. Everything I've raised and discussed has been within the context outlined by Mahler himself. Being a public figure naturally comes with scrutiny, especially when you make statements that don't quite line up. It's reasonable to ask questions and challenge inconsistencies. In the end it will only enable us to understand better, if it is the case that we're ignorant to something not clear.

By the way, if Jez's article is clickbait, so was the inception of this thread before all the revelations. I'd argue that if it wasn't for Jez's article, we'd all still be assuming Moon Studios would't be around in a couple months. Glad to know that they're not in financial danger!

 

[Zacfoldor]

This sounded more like a scold and an empty threat than announcing a real issue so glad to hear they will weather this storm.

Making a public access game where sales of the game fund further development is like living paycheck to paycheck as a business. Not the best model. Not a sustainable model. Hopefully they will get back on their feet and never be in this situation again. I'm surprised after Ori they never never bought.

What about the game inspired bad reviews? Everything I've seen has looked amazing.

 

[Astray]

What about the game inspired bad reviews? Everything I've seen has looked amazing.

Last patch apparently made the game kinda grindy from what I'm seeing.

I don't think I've been hostile towards Mahler. Some of my posts echo points raised in Jez's article, and to be clear, those points were being discussed here before the article even came out. I've pressed him a bit, but always in good faith, as both a fan and a consumer. But just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I'll overlook things that don't add up. I'm calling it how I see it because that's how honest feedback works.

I genuinely appreciate Mahler being on GAF and engaging with the community, and overall, people here have been respectful toward him. But let's not twist the narrative, he's not a victim on GAF. Everything I've raised and discussed has been within the context outlined by Mahler himself. Being a public figure naturally comes with scrutiny, especially when you make statements that don't quite line up. It's reasonable to ask questions and challenge inconsistencies. In the end it will only enable us to understand better, if it is the case that we're ignorant to something not clear.

By the way, if Jez's article is clickbait, so was the inception of this thread before all the revelations. I'd argue that if it wasn't for Jez's article, we'd all still be assuming Moon Studios would't be around in a couple months. Glad to know that they're not in financial danger!

It's honestly super weird how his own narrative is inconsistent.

At one point they need all the support or they won't exist tomorrow, the next moment everything is okay but some people are saying things and taking him out of context because of politics (which no one brought up on the new Steam reviews or anywhere else)? Also he's arguing with people on Reddit for some reason?

The man needs to hire a community manager and distance himself from this shit.

 

[Solarstrike]

Can you imagine if they were (contracted by Nintendo) to do a Metroid game? Metroid Zero Mission II anyone?

Image created in Bing Image Creator

Spoiler: [Press Start]

 

[Edgelord79]

a lot of people were mad that a recent update deleted characters and made everyone start over.

Isn't that the point of early access? To test things and that possibility is always there?

 

[TDiddyLive]

The main issue here is how to address review bombing correctly, really. What can Steam, and other platforms, do to avoid the negative impact of such reviews ?

For Steam, there are definitely solutions. You know if the guy asked for a refund and you know how much time he played. Without removing such reviews, offering a filter to users to exclude them can't be that complicated.

A checkbox to "Remove refunded product reviews" and a field to choose "Only people that played X hours" and X is a free value.

What you're suggesting is a filter to only show positive reviews. If a game is trash, people will want a refund or will stop playing it before too many hours, so this filter eliminates only bad reviews.

 

[Goalus]

Reviews from refunders should be automatically removed. These people played the game and didn't pay for it.

 

[nial]

Didn't Take Two offer to publish the game when Private Division was closed down?

Under what company? Take-Two isn't a publisher itself.

 

[Labadal]

Under what company? Take-Two isn't a publisher itself.

I could be wrong, but I thought it was under 2K.

 

[KiteGr]

I want this to succeed. I might dip Into it's early access, even though I never do.

 

[cireza]

What you're suggesting is a filter to only show positive reviews.

No.

 

[TDiddyLive]

No.

Yeah, because lots of people love playing a game they hate. Instead of getting a refund, they would rather play it for hours on end not enjoying it to make sure their review is valid for your sake.

 

[Hypereides]

For a forum about videogames, it's always strange to me how little empathy many GAF posters have for the developers who make them.

Its a shame. Some of it probably stems from the public antagonism and offloaded blame they've been thrown in recent decade and unfortunately, it lumped the good game devs with some bad apples in the industry. The gaming press' vilification of gamers/the gaming community didn't help either. In return, its eroded some trust and friendliness towards game devs in general.

 

[GametimeUK]

I love Moon Studios and the Ori games. I honestly don't think any of what they're saying here is unreasonable. I know this isn't what's being asked of me, but I was anticipating this games full release. I feel I should just buy the game right now to help out despite the fact I'm not really into early access or pre ordering games. The Studio have built up enough good will from me here with their previous games.

If you read this thanks for posting here and thanks again for your communication. I really want to see you guys thrive as the Ori games are perfection level video games to me.

 

[cireza]

Yeah, because lots of people love playing a game they hate. Instead of getting a refund, they would rather play it for hours on end not enjoying it to make sure their review is valid for your sake.

So when you have spent less than 2 hours on a game and ask for a refund, you are an expert about the game and should definitely write a review about how it sucks.

Or, if you are an actual adult and not utterly stupid, you can come to the conclusion that you didn't enjoy these 2 hours, but that you are far from being able to say like some absolute truth that this game sucks. And not leave a review because it has close to 0 value.

I would certainly not want to read your review that's for sure.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Already had the game but bought 2 more copies and gifted them to a friend and a family member. Ori games are some of my all time favorites so i trust the final product will be at the very least, very good. I haven't even started playing the game. Decided to wait until is out of ea.

 

[ClanOfNone]

Can you imagine if they were (contracted by Nintendo) to do a Metroid game? Metroid Zero Mission II anyone?

Image created in Bing Image Creator

Spoiler: [Press Start]

I always thought Moon should've gotten Metroid: Dread. I have little doubt they could've made a much better game than what we got.

I would've bought NRftW the second early access dropped, but alas no pc. I know a handful of EA games that released on Xbox, wish this was one of them.

 

[TDiddyLive]

So when you have spent less than 2 hours on a game and ask for a refund, you are an expert about the game and should definitely write a review about how it sucks.

Or, if you are an actual adult and not utterly stupid, you can come to the conclusion that you didn't enjoy these 2 hours, but that you are far from being able to say like some absolute truth that this game sucks. And not leave a review because it has close to 0 value.

I would certainly not want to read your review that's for sure.

A review isn't based on being an expert. It's a personal opinion. If somebody makes a game that sucks for the first two hours, then a negative review is fine. Bad gameplay mechanics are noticeable pretty quickly. If a game runs like shit, then a negative review can be valid, even if it was only played for twenty minutes. Time played and getting a refund shouldn't prevent a bad game from getting a bad review.

 

[Hudo]

If that's the case, I think that's quite the bullshit policy.

I saw a few posts on twitter asking people to review bomb No Rest for the Wicked because of the 'Thomas is a Nazi' lunatics who insist that every single goddamn thing in the world must be rooted in politics and if you disagree, you're a Nazi. Just look at the negative reviews, we have people that have bought the game, left a negative review while only posting a period in their review (literally ".") and then got a refund and that stuff gets counted by Steam. Meanwhile, I've been working 16-18 hour days since around October of last year... so seeing something like that is obviously quite disparaging.

If you allow users to use your platform to crap on developers while giving them absolutely no recourse, you're really not doing developers any favors. But then again, I don't know if there's really any truth to this being 'policy' in the first place. I'm always just doing what makes sense to me and asking players who are actively playing and loving the product to leave a positive review seems okay to me given that things are quite heated out there with people review bombing games quite frequently not based on a products quality, but based on political beliefs.

Ultimately, we will keep doing what we've always done: We focus on making the best games out there. We want every game we release to become a masterpiece. With No Rest for the Wicked, we said we want to revolutionize the ARPG genre and that's what we're doing. In many ways, Wicked is already a pretty great product and it'll only get better from here. There's more and more features and content coming and after the Hotfixes, people seem very positive already again. And there's already big things in the oven for the next updates!

But these negative reviews will not go away, so now it'll be harder to generate sales because a lot of casual players just hop on Steam, see a 'mixed' review score and are scared off.

Even Path of Exile 2 now has a 'Mostly Negative' score, which of course is hurting their entire studio as well. And then some gamers wonder why they're only left with soulless AAA studios that generate skinner boxes filled with microtransaction trash - it's because if something like that happens to them, they have ways of turning things around. We don't, we're a smaller, independent developer. We need to do what's right for our fans and our community and that is to focus on the quality of our products.

As a massive fan of Command & Conquer, I'd like to see Moon Studios' take on an RTS game.

 

[GC_DALBEN]

Very good game, i played It a Lot when they released the EA last year, ill wait for the 1.0.

 

[thomasmahler]

Can you imagine if they were (contracted by Nintendo) to do a Metroid game? Metroid Zero Mission II anyone?

Image created in Bing Image Creator

Well, not to mention that we literally hired the guy who made AM2R!

And of course we could make an insane Metroid game. We have lots of crazy folks in the studio that hail Super Metroid as the best game of all time

Right now we need to make sure that Wicked will shine as a total masterpiece at 1.0 and everyone understands that internally. But we definitely have some folks that want us to make a new Banjo Kazooie and others that want us to make Metroid and yet others that would want us to make a third Ori game. We'll see!

 

[Mokus]

So when you have spent less than 2 hours on a game and ask for a refund, you are an expert about the game and should definitely write a review about how it sucks.

Or, if you are an actual adult and not utterly stupid, you can come to the conclusion that you didn't enjoy these 2 hours, but that you are far from being able to say like some absolute truth that this game sucks. And not leave a review because it has close to 0 value.

I would certainly not want to read your review that's for sure.

From what I noticed that most of the negative reviews that are under 2 hours and with a refund usually are about broken elements from the game - too many bugs, gameplay is broken in some way, can't run on a decent hardware or on some GPUs... and of course the game is unfinished and it will be unfinished since it was abandoned by the developers (in early access). So these reviews to stay up even after the refund are very useful and still can reflect the state that the game is in. On Steam, reviews are not only about the whole game itself but it also gives you useful information. Obviously the game can be patched and that's why you should consider the latest negative reviews (and positives to) of a game.

 

[EviLore]

Thanks Tyler!

I also didn't see an issue in asking people to leave a positive review IF they're actively playing and enjoying No Rest for the Wicked!

In general, I think the industry needs to adapt to how games have changed. It's a bit absurd that these Steam Reviews and Press Reviews stay up forever even though lots of games are constantly under active development and are being shaped by the developers and their communities all the time. What good is a negative review that highlights all the issues that have already been fixed? What good is a positive review if the game has become terrible? We've even seen publishers exploiting those things quite a lot recently by them not selling MTX on launch, so that it doesn't get mentioned in reviews, but adding that stuff after launch... and yet, those reviews just stay around forever, they never change, even if the product doesn't reflect any of that stuff anymore.

On top of that it's bewildering that you can literally buy a product, leave a negative review and then refund the product without your negative review going away. It should be absolutely clear that people will abuse that exploit. And I'd in general say that reviews need to be moderated. Nobody is helped by a positive or a negative review where the user typed in one letter (in our case '.').

And just to once again be clear with everybody here: We want to have the reputation that we're a studio that takes ALL FEEDBACK into account, constantly! We've chosen Early Access exactly because we love the idea of being able to perfect a product before we release it because we want all our games to become masterpieces. And the only way we'll ever get there is by listening to all users and carefully considering any and all concerns. I only have issues with reviews that were clearly posted in bad faith.

No worries, and I appreciate you dropping by to share your perspective.

Certainly, it's possible--and commonplace--to manipulate all of our industry's feedback mechanisms: journalist reviews, influencer videos, user reviews, comments sections, etc. There is too much money on the line for companies not to. I expect a lot of people have become numb or oblivious to the big corporate approach to finessing game coverage since it's a refined art at this point, but it involves a lot of money changing hands in exchange for influence, and it's everywhere.

Steam reviews are one of the better systems since they require users to buy the game and transparently display time played, which is much more than we can say for many professional game reviewers. But it is fair to call out the dynamic of being able to buy a game, play it for a few minutes, leave a negative review, and refund it, since it can be done artificially with no intention of keeping the game from the onset. Or leaving a negative review for a version of the game that no longer exists and having it remain part of the aggregate.

It matters so you have to attempt to manage it. Outreach on your Discord is a totally fair way of doing so.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Well, not to mention that we literally hired the guy who made AM2R!

And of course we could make an insane Metroid game. We have lots of crazy folks in the studio that hail Super Metroid as the best game of all time

Right now we need to make sure that Wicked will shine as a total masterpiece at 1.0 and everyone understands that internally. But we definitely have some folks that want us to make a new Banjo Kazooie and others that want us to make Metroid and yet others that would want us to make a third Ori game. We'll see!

Looking forward to your upcoming extraction shooter

 

[cireza]

If somebody makes a game that sucks for the first two hours, then a negative review is fine.

It is hardly insightful for any game that is supposed to last for tenths of hours.

Games being broken is an issue indeed. Didn't think about this. These reviews are fine obviously, it is up to the developer to not release a broken game.

 

[Solarstrike]

Right now we need to make sure that Wicked will shine as a total masterpiece at 1.0 and everyone understands that internally. But we definitely have some folks that want us to make a new Banjo Kazooie and others that want us to make Metroid and yet others that would want us to make a third Ori game. We'll see!

Thank you for the reply, Thomas! Loving No Rest for the Wicked. Really outstanding so far. Of course, of course, the focus should be on polishing that, I understand. Congratulations on the studios' independence also, Thomas. I know I share many NeoGAF members positive sentiments in wishing much success to you and the entire team at Moon Studios.

 

[Dr. Samuel Hayden]

Weird that it was getting negative reviews. I thought people loved it.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

thomasmahler It's good to finally see actual devs here. Welcome!

I'll be honest with you.

I'm in no position at all to write a review. I LOVED what I've seen in the first 70 min, but I haven't played the game since and I won't be playing it again until the 1.0 release. I had prior experience with EA launches where I play EA version a lot and then just never come back to play the game again after 1.0 launch, even though like in case with Dead Cells for example, there were tons of new updates and expansions. I just don't want it to happen again and with No Rest especially, cuz again, I LOVED what I've seen and want to play and experience the finished product. It's been a year+ since the last time I played the EA version and I already forgot what was there besides story stuff, so when the game hits 1.0 I'll be playing it like for the first time and I want and will cherish that moment.

I really hope that you guys will have a chance to finish the game and realize it's full potential. I'll be there day 1 playing the game when 1.0 launches. I LOVE every single game you guys made and I want you to still be around, do what you do best and unlike everyone else. Please just ignore haters and brain-dead people, mental health is very important, don't let any negativity and other bad shit get into you and make your day worse. Good luck to you and to the whole team!

 

[thomasmahler]

thomasmahler It's good to finally see actual devs here. Welcome!

I'll be honest with you.

I'm in no position at all to write a review. I LOVED what I've seen in the first 70 min, but I haven't played the game since and I won't be playing it again until the 1.0 release. I had prior experience with EA launches where I play EA version a lot and then just never come back to play the game again after 1.0 launch, even though like in case with Dead Cells for example, there were tons of new updates and expansions. I just don't want it to happen again and with No Rest especially, cuz again, I LOVED what I've seen and want to play and experience the finished product. It's been a year+ since the last time I played the EA version and I already forgot what was there besides story stuff, so when the game hits 1.0 I'll be playing it like for the first time and I want and will cherish that moment.

I really hope that you guys will have a chance to finish the game and realize it's full potential. I'll be there day 1 playing the game when 1.0 launches. I LOVE every single game you guys made and I want you to still be around, do what you do best and unlike everyone else. Please just ignore haters and brain-dead people, mental health is very important, don't let any negativity and other bad shit get into you and make your day worse. Good luck to you and to the whole team!

Thank you, that means a lot!

 

[N0S]

I bought both Ori ganes two times. Release this damn game already.

 

[Bloody5]

Thank you, that means a lot!

Same thing here.
Enjoyed a lot what I played but eagerly waiting for version 1.0 since I don't want to be "burnt out" on the game.
Can you provide an ETA?

 

[Schmendrick]

I´m glad Thomas` request fell on fertile ground.
I really want to see this game make it to 1.0. The potential is great and I have faith in Moon Studios to deliver something excellent in the end.

 

[James0007]

Isn't that the point of early access? To test things and that possibility is always there?

This is what I've always thought too & I've seen the same muck tossed at the PoE2 devs. The entire point of early access is it's a game in active development. Taking risks and trying out completely new ideas is part of any creative development process - but people start tossing toys out the pram when it's actually the best time to give constructive feedback. These aren't post launch patches & shouldn't be viewed as such.

I love getting behind projects early, and I've purchased games like NRFTW, Enshrouded, PoE 2 amongst others - but I tend to let them cook to 1.0 before jumping in earnestly.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Thank you, that means a lot!

Out of curiosity, with Path of Exile 2 now on early access on PS5 and Xbox, have you considered releasing an early access version of No Rest for the Wicked on console? I know the plan is to wait for the full release before the game releases on console, but I have to wonder if it could help financially when it comes to development. I would think when the multiplayer update is released, that could be a great opportunity to quickly expand your player base to PS5 and Xbox. Even if it wasn't finished yet, I'd grab an early access copy on console to help fund development, especially if I also knew there was a sizable amount of content there. And in that aspect of things, it looks like you're pretty much already there.

However, I can see how early access also really can take the wind out of the sails when it comes to the full version at times. For example, I ended up playing Rogue Legacy 2 when that game was fully released on console, and I loved that game. It became one of my favorites that year, but it would have been a much worse experience if I was only getting to play a level or two at a time, with months in between. That's how early access went on PC, and while it funded development, I can't help but feel it was probably considerably less fun to play it that way overall.

And of course, worrying about a console version before release will also add more development time and require more resources. So that's probably longer for PC players to wait for updates, and that's if Sony even would allow an early access version. It seems that they made an exception for POE2, but that's not common.

I guess I'd say that it would arguably be best for a number of reasons to wait for the full release when it comes to console. However, if you reach a point where you do need the extra capital for development to continue, an early access version on console might help. Either way, No Rest for the Wicked is one of my most anticipated games. I look forward to playing it, and I wish you continued success with it.

 

[Catphish]

I very rarely buy early access games anymore. Been burned one too many times. I know a lot of people feel the same. So it seems to me that banking on early access income isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

[Donkusei]

I very rarely buy early access games anymore. Been burned one too many times. I know a lot of people feel the same. So it seems to me that banking on early access income isn't the smartest thing to do.

I just don't like to play an "unfinished" game, I am waiting for a Switch 2 release (physical if possible!).

 

[LegendOfKage]

I think this is a solid explanation of the advantages and disadvantages of early access, and the video does a good job of using the situation with No Rest for the Wicked to explore the topic.

 

[darrylgorn]

Can you imagine if they were (contracted by Nintendo) to do a Metroid game? Metroid Zero Mission II anyone?

Image created in Bing Image Creator