More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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GameGuru59
Banned
Yeah. That was way more emotionally heartbreaking that a rape scene you could see coming from a mile away.
I'm not. Everyone wanted to see the repercussions.
Traumatic, yes, but insanely well done, and there were many other high quality stories to follow, which I think people realized.
What do we have left now? Uh.. Jon and Stannis I guess. Certainly not Jaime.
Who knows at this point, but I doubt it will drop much.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
That had a point to the plot though... This and most of the Theon being tortured scenes really don't. We get it, Ramsay is a shitbird.
Evil_Silver
Banned
Tommen = a little bitch. He is the fucking king and he allows a couple of religious nuts to take his wife who is the Queen. Lol. They should all be dead by now. The fact that the situation has escalated to the level that it is at now demonstrates that Tommen is soft as tissue paper and is not fit to be king when he can allow commoners to take his queen away.
We don't know she was assaulted by dogs.
It's hinted (conversely, I thought it was also stated that his dogs are female and he names them after his hunting victims) but never really confirmed.
George makes you assume and sympathize without having to say "She's getting raped by dogs!!!!"
There are many, many other examples from the show. Most have already been cited in this topic: Joffrey forcing the one prostitute to kill the other, the way the Red Wedding was handled, the sex scenes involving Oberyn (and the way in which he died).
On and on and on. This isn't a show like Mad Men where you can sit there and ponder the messages in last weeks episode, or think about the themes the writers were trying to explore. The reason why Game of Thrones is popular is because it appeals to very basic human instincts -- what sort of terrible thing can we show this week involving sex and/or violence?
If you don't like that, that's fine. But the show has never been anything else.
Resident_UA
Member
This scene was more uncomfortable to watch than Theon's torture even though everything was pretty much happening off screen. I think the outrage around the latest episode says more about our society than about the show itself... But I don't really know what it is saying. I agree with people that this was one of the most uncomfortable to watch scenes in the show, but it's not even close to the most horrifying things depicted on the show. GOT was always brutal and in many cases it was way more explicit than this.
AuthenticM
Member
I understand the outrage at the rape scene from last season, what with Cersei starting to "enjoy it". But last Sunday's scene was nothing like that. It was extremely well-done, for the main reason that it was not eroticized at all. In fact, they didn't show the rape. The camera was focused exclusively on Theon's face, who served as a vector for the audience in that his expression mirrored the audience's.
There are plenty of rape scenes done wrongly in Hollywood, but that was not one of them.
There are plenty of rape scenes done wrongly in Hollywood, but that was not one of them.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The books are significantly worse, actually. People just don't read, so people aren't outraged.
Really? GRRM gets a lot of criticism for this sort of stuff (and a lot of other stuff). It's obviously not as widespread because the books aren't nearly as popular.
styl3s
Member
What i find interesting is people have been watching the show for 5 years and off-screen rape is the thing that puts them over the edge when it isn't even the first time.
I find it more harder and harder to stomach social media because of the over PC'ness. I get it, rape is a very, very touchy subject but this is a universe where terrible things happen to people and it's a universe where rape is a very real thing that probably happens often and the fact it's this character that is forcing it to happen makes sense.
It's not even the first time a rape was depicted in the show yet i didn't see any outcry when and this is a The Shield spoiler
when Asavada was forced to suck a mans dick at gunpoint, he was raped. He was raped and it showed him doing the act where this was off-screen
I get it, it's 2015 and everyone has a twitter, blog, myspace and live journal so it's much more vocal these days but it seems you can't take a fart without pissing off half of the internet. I am not trying to belittle rape because i find it to be a very, very heinous and disgusting thing and i would never in my life condone such a horrible act in real life but this is a tv show and it's a the guy who did the rape in this show is a very, very heinous person where rape would fit the bill of things he does. If you find yourself offended at most things maybe don't watch that is full of womanizing characters and dozens of scenes of torture and murder.
Qwell
Member
What if it gives her the strength the light a candle in the tower and have Brienne come to the rescue, is that better? Remember Sansa is not a fighter, but perhaps this is the last thing she has to endure before she does become that power player. This whole time she has been lead by someone, the queen of Tyrel, Tyrion, Little Finger... now she is on her own, no one to lean on. No one to protect her without her actual intervention, but she does have Brienne who reached out, who gave her an opportunity, but she has to make that choice.
It could be a juxtaposition to the whole "kill the boy" from the earlier episode. This was the event that "killed the girl" and makes her enter the game. Gives her the agency to control her destiny, to reach out to those in true alliance to her to help her overcome. But at THIS point we don't know, the episode just ended so its all conjecture at this time.
I'll be there for next weeks episode though.
Yep and if the show is any coherent all that's gone.
Fuck that.
TheGravemind
Banned
lot of people skinned alive,tortured,killed,raped , beheaded , burned alive etc for 5 years and no one bat an eye.Now everybody upset kek
hypocrisy
hypocrisy
Yeah, I found it really interesting that in the last Alan Sepinwall review he said he, "liked where the show was going, but it definitely needed more rape."
Isn't that just pure speculation?
People could at least wait and see before they get mad about assumptions
TheSadRanger
Banned
Book reader catching up to show.
Who came up with this change from the books? Littlefinger went through all the trouble of getting her out of King's Landing just to give her to Ramsay?
If only they didn't cast an actress that's looked like a 12 year old for over five years
Who came up with this change from the books? Littlefinger went through all the trouble of getting her out of King's Landing just to give her to Ramsay?
If only they didn't cast an actress that's looked like a 12 year old for over five years
blitzcloud
Banned
to my understanding she wasn't raped (what I mean to say is that she's being deceptive of her intentions when marrying Ramsay. He has no reason right now to think that she despises him so much). She obviously didn't like him, but I see it as the "stop running" that Petyr told her. she's going to have to fill a role there to reclaim her home.
to the above poster (last episode spoilers):
to the above poster (last episode spoilers):
Petyr wants to be the warden of the north. If stannis kills the Bolton house, she's gonna be safe because her father died to protect Stannis right to be the heir. If Stannis loses, she still has the Bolton house to keep her safe. Petyr plans to attack them when they're most vulnerable and be the warden of the North, which would mean that he would eventually end up with Sansa
Another day... Another faux outrage.
This really didn't come out of left field. Ramsay is a psychopath, it's customary for the bride to have intercourse with the groom on the wedding night, and Sansa knew what she was getting into.
Out of all of the horrible things that happen on the show, this is what makes people upset?
I mean, it's even historically accurate in the real world. This kind of stuff happened in the Middle Ages, where the wife basically couldn't say no- Rape was essentially legal.
This really didn't come out of left field. Ramsay is a psychopath, it's customary for the bride to have intercourse with the groom on the wedding night, and Sansa knew what she was getting into.
Out of all of the horrible things that happen on the show, this is what makes people upset?
I mean, it's even historically accurate in the real world. This kind of stuff happened in the Middle Ages, where the wife basically couldn't say no- Rape was essentially legal.
The Silver
Member
If you remember Littlefinger gave her the choice to back out and leave when they arrived, part of the "manipulative plan" WAS for Sansa to marry Ramsey.
Sansa knew she was getting married and she knows what happens on the wedding night, she didn't get blindsided.
Was that in the books? I don't think it was. You would've needed either Ros (who didn't exist) or Joffrey's POV. And Joffrey never got one, IIRC. Nasty people generally don't.
Which was fantastically nightmarish. Not 1:1 with the books, but hey, there really are (many) times where "it's TV we can only fit so much in" is a real explanation and not just a cover for writing and execution that didn't turn out how you planned. I wouldn't've done it much differently, if at all.
That was a problem?
Are we having the same discussion?
neogaffer1
Banned
I can't decide which is worse this or killing
Barristan the Bold.
I feel like some of you don't have an awareness of the discussion of this show outside of like plot discussions or something. The gratuitous nature of Theon's scenes were easily one of the more common complaints about the show's mid seasons.
You'd think this is the first time GoT was ever criticized by the way people are trying to defend it with this sort of stuff. The books and shows have had this sort of conversation surrounding it for years.
excelsiorlef
Member
Jesus Christ! Faux? How is it fake. Because you don't agree with it, it's not real?
Pretty baseless, too.
I mean, it sure seems like Ramsay's tormenting of Sansa is snapping Theon out of his conditioning, but this whole arc has been about Sansa taking the slow road to her own vengeance.
This show doesn't lack for strong female characters and whichever path they choose, I don't think it's a simple as all that.
The male character standing in the room during the scene being discussed was nearly raped. Nice try I guess?
half a moon
Banned
Yeah, I agree she knew what would happen with the marriage. But what real purpose does her marrying him actually serve for herself and Littlefinger?
I haven't seen this week's episode yet (clicked the thread without thinking) and I might find the scene to be unnecessary or gratuitous but at the moment this reasoning doesn't seem right to me. It's been obvious Ramsay Bolton has been one of the most repulsive people on the show, willing to commit some of the worst acts seen on the show imaginable. And that became clear very early on. But I don't get why the show would stop showing him doing shitty things just because we know he's a horrible person already. And surely the purpose of the scene is not to demonstrate Ramsay's personality, but to show what Sansa and Theon are going through, and maybe have it act as a catalyst for one of them to try and change their situation (hasn't Sansa been told to light a candle if she is in danger?). Also, unless Ramsay or Sansa acknowledged that she was raped in a later scene, I don't see how that scene isn't conveying new information to the audience.
And in response to the OP's article quote, I don't see how Game of Thrones trivializes rape any more than it does murder, torture or god knows what else. It's a disgusting, horrifying act, but I don't see why rape can't be used as a plot device in fiction like everything else in the world. I thought these articles would be about if there should have been a trigger warning or something, but I'm really struggling to see what the problem is here.
No, because if people actually examined the event in the context of the show (and the characters), it would have actually been strange if it didn't go down this way.
I'm sorry. Please go back to being offended... It is your right, I guess.
Train of Midnight
Banned
pretty much this.
(except Martin, as far as we know, hasn't done this to Sansa -- this part of the timeline happened to someone else entirely)
The Silver
Member
well we have to wait and see won't we? the season isn't over.
True though that may be, it doesn't change the fact that his actions are congruent with the universe that he exists in.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Martin's treatment of Sansa will be far, far less satisfying to her fans (does Alayne even have fans?). D&D have given immediacy to her story and some relevance in the day to day happenings of the main conflict. Nothing of note has happened to her since Lysa went through the Moon Door, other than becoming a convincing liar, which they've shown in the show.
D&D had to make hard choices because a lot of AFFC/ADWD (especially AFFC) is unadaptable dreck. Yes, dreck. A lot of the rest if pure filler (see: Brienne of Tarth). They are omitting/converging storylines because of the constraints of the medium. I don't agree with all of the changes (the Dorne plot is a mess right now), but I'm not going to condemn the entire venture because a few things aren't perfectly accurate. I'm enjoying not knowing where the story goes for the first time since my first read through the novels.
Garrett, you don't know if this will be a catalyst for further change in Sansa. Even if it is, she still doesn't have any power in the show. She has no direwolf, no dragons, no knights to fight for her (except Brienne, fancy that), no one to train her in the arts of murder. No matter how she feels, she is at the mercy of whomever is her current caretaker. That is the reality of the vast majority of women who aren't Dornish in this universe. You're applying modern sensibilities to a quasi-medieval story. Constant violence against women is a reality of the world they live in. Sometimes, it serves no purpose other than sheer revelry (like the mutineers north of the Wall).
Old Sansa would have crawled up into a ball and sobbed herself to death had she been violated by Joff, the KL mob, Tyrion, or the Hound. I'm guessing new Sansa, forged through tragedy and experience, handles it quite a bit better.
This echoes my feelings as well.
Yeah ok thats a fair point, well reasoned.
GarthVaderUK
Banned
People upset about it best not watch the latest episode of Outlander...now that was some grim viewing.
Lord of Castamere
Member
I don't the rape. I just don't unnderstand how bad the writing became to have Petyr marry Sansa to the Boltons. Never would have happened. Petyr has the Eyrie, Sansa givs him validity to the North and Riverlands.
A continued shitty snowball effect.
A continued shitty snowball effect.
And?
Ramsay could flay Sansa and Theon next week. That would also be congruent with the time period.
That isn't the only factor that matters. There are other book series featuring rape and murder in a medieval setting. But Song of Ice and Fire is actually really good.
Pyramid head
Banned
In the books, the Boltons do not have Sansa, they have Jeyne Pool who they are parading as a fake Arya in order to claim Winterfell. The treatment of Jeyne in the books is solely for the benefit of Theon's character.
Sansa is still in the Vale with Littlefinger and is undergoing character developments which don't involve 'get raped = become stronger'.
Transposing Sansa into Jeynes place is the laziest thing I could think of doing.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I don't know why people thought Sansa was going to go straight from pawn -> queen of the game just like that. She was marrying into a family with a known reputation for brutality. How many of the marriages in the show started off with a night of mutual passion? Dany/Drogo, Cersei/Rober certainly didn't. Unfortunately, that's the Westerosi marriage system. It's very, very patriarchal.
I mean that goes without even saying it's off-screen/implied.
Guessing (ALL BOOK SPOILERS)
I mean that goes without even saying it's off-screen/implied.
Guessing (ALL BOOK SPOILERS)
forced cunnilingus would have gone down a treat.
I think this is inaccurate at its best, yes shit happens but it happens to all characters regardless of gender or race. so the fact that shit happens to woman is no less lazy than anything else in the show.
The Silver
Member
Ramsey wouldn't do that to Sansa as he needs her to secure the North.
Well, chalk that up mainly to AFFC and ADWD being a real-time look at Martin untangling a world-spanning, labyrinthine plot hole. But from what we've seen in TWoW... it looks like it may get very interesting.
Yes, he could. That's really up to the writers, isn't it?
I have no idea what this point has to do with what's being discussed. Are people upset because they feel it isn't necessary to move the story (which can be discussed.. I don't know, when the season ends?) or that it's a rape scene, and that alone makes people uncomfortable?
EDIT: Can we spoiler tag book information please? I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I have yet to read them and would like to at some point.
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