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Mormon Church Abandons Its Crusade Against Gay Marriage

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Dead Man

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Last month, hundreds of boisterous protesters converged in Washington, DC, as the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Hollingsworth v. Perry, the lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of California's anti-gay marriage initiative, Proposition 8. Faith-based groups were on prominent display: the Methodists supporting marriage equality, the Westboro Baptists suggesting (per usual) that "God hates fags," the Catholics both for and against gay marriage, clergy of all stripes. But one group that wasn't there in any official capacity was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—a.k.a. the Mormons—which perhaps more than any other religious group was responsible for getting Prop. 8 passed in the first place.

In the five years since the LDS church sent busloads of the faithful to California to canvass neighborhoods, and contributed more than $20 million via its members to support the initiative, it has all but dropped the rope in the public policy tug of war over marriage equality. The change stems from an even more remarkable if somewhat invisible transformation happening within the church, prompted by the ugly fight over Prop. 8 and the ensuing backlash from the flock.

Although the LDS's prophet hasn't described a holy revelation directing a revision in church doctrine on same-sex marriage or gay rights in general, the church has shown a rare capacity for introspection and humane cultural change unusual for a large conservative religious organization.

"It seems like the [Mormon] hierarchy has pulled the plug and is no longer taking the lead in the fight to stop same-sex marriage," says Fred Karger, the LGBT activist who first exposed the church's major role in the passage of Prop. 8. "The Mormon Church has lost so many members and suffered such a black eye because of all its anti-gay activities that they really had no choice. I am hopeful that the Catholic Church cannot be far behind."

The LDS church has been a driving force against gay-marriage initiatives since at least 1995. It was instrumental in fending off same-sex marriage in Hawaii and Alaska and, in 2000, it helped pass California's Proposition 22 (the Prop. 8 precursor known as the Knight Initiative), which defined marriage as solely between a man and woman. (Prop. 22 was struck down by the California Supreme Court in 2008.)

The church's anti-gay positions and lobbying on gay marriage have always been divisive. In 2000, during the fight over the Knight Initiative, a young gay Mormon named Stuart Matis killed himself on the steps of a Mormon ward in Los Altos, California. In a letter to his cousin shortly before his suicide, he despaired over the impact of the church's political activities on Mormon families: "On the night of March 7th, many California couples will retire to their beds thrilled that they helped pass the Knight Initiative. What they don't realize is that in the next room, their son or daughter is lying in bed crying and could very well one day be the victim of society's homophobia. The Knight Initiative will certainly save no family. It is codified hatred. It is anti-family, anti-love and it is wrong."

But Matis' death didn't slow the church's efforts to beat back same-sex marriage initiatives. In 2008, after the California Supreme Court briefly legalized gay marriage in the state, the Latter Day Saints lent their formidable organizing skills and networks to the Prop. 8 effort, sending canvassers door to door by zip code—sometimes as many as 25,000 per weekend—much as they send out missionaries to spread the Gospel. The church has been credited with almost single-handedly getting Prop. 8 passed, despite a well-funded opposition with backing from Hollywood.

Prop. 8 was a Pyrrhic victory for the Mormons, however. Their role, which the church sought to keep under wraps, was exposed by Karger, who tracked the individual donations pouring into the Yes on 8 campaign back to church members. LGBT activists responded by publicizing the church's involvement, running an ad, for example, showing fake Mormon missionaries knocking on the door of a lesbian couple and then rifling through their drawers and tearing up their marriage license.

The negative exposure prompted protests, and many Mormons publicly renounced their church membership. One of them was then 28-year-old Matthew Lawrence, the son of official LDS pollster Gary Lawrence, who had led the Prop. 8 fight. "I love my family so much, but it's hard to not take this personally. We had a brief falling-out over Prop. 22, but that got mended. But two anti-gay initiatives in eight years, it's impossible not to feel attacked," Matthew, who is gay, wrote in 2008.

The LDS church had always struggled for public acceptance, and the negative press wasn't helping. One poll, conducted a year after Prop. 8 passed, showed that the church's favorability rating had fallen from 42 percent to 37 percent. But its image problem was nothing compared to the internal rifts the Mormons were experiencing. "The church probably deserved the black eye we got from Prop. 8," says Mitch Mayne, an openly gay Mormon leader in the San Francisco area. "What the non-Mormon world didn't get to see was how destructive that was inside the faith."

In response to the anger within Mormon ranks over Prop. 8, the president of the Oakland, California, stake (a stake is akin to a Catholic diocese) began organizing gatherings of gay and straight members to try to bridge the differences. In September 2010, the disgruntled church members received a private audience with one of the church's top officials, Marlin Jensen, who serves as the LDS's historian. The church members tearfully told Jensen their stories—of being shunned by their families, and the homophobia generated by the Prop. 8 campaign. "We explained that [the church had] pitted father against son, mother against daughter, exactly the opposite of what we stand for," says Mayne, who attended the meeting.

After listening to them talk, Jensen did something almost unheard of in a church whose strict authoritarian hierarchy is unaccustomed to being challenged from below: He apologized "for the pain that Prop. 8 caused [us]," Mayne recalls, choking up at the memory. It was, he says, a "very meaningful event."

The apology from a high church official turned out to be just the beginning of a cultural shift toward greater acceptance of gays and lesbians within LDS ranks. In 2011, Mayne was called to serve as an official of his local San Francisco ward, as an openly gay man. It was a historic appointment in an institution with a long history of excommunicating openly gay members, which it referred to as people who were "afflicted" with same-sex attraction.

Since then, the church has opened its doors to LGBT members in many places, Mayne says: "Everybody is welcome here. Nobody is under that threat of being excommunicated." In 2012, the church even created a website, Mormonsandgays.org, to convey its desire for more-humane treatment of LGBT members. Also last year, about 300 straight Mormons marched in the Salt Lake City pride parade, a significant and emotional first. Mayne says the new website, like the church, still has a long way to go, but he and other gay Mormons see it as a step in the right direction.

Perhaps most significantly, the church has made a concerted effort to bring LGBT kids back into the fold. Mayne points out that gay Mormon kids have significantly higher suicide rates than gay non-Mormon ones—a problem that has been attributed to the church's longtime policy of forcing parents of gay kids to choose between their church and their children. It also has long been common practice for Mormon parents to kick LGBT adolescents out of their homes because of their sexual orientation. (When Matt Lawrence, the church pollster's son, broke with his family over Prop. 8, he told stories about his family's efforts to "straighten me out" by sending him to live with homophobic cousins in Utah.) Utah foster parents, too, generally won't take in LGBT children. That's one reason why heavily Mormon Utah has so many homeless LGBT kids on the streets. But even that is starting to change.

The church has worked with the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University to craft an educational booklet aimed specifically at helping Mormons parent their gay kids, to keep them safe at home and to prevent suicide. It's a remarkably humane document instructing church members on how to embrace their gay kids even when they're uncomfortable with their purple hair and transgendered friends. The pamphlet is now being used in lots of Mormon wards. Meanwhile, in Salt Lake City, where the church is headquartered, the church has teamed up with the LGBT community to open a shelter for young homeless people there, about 40 percent of whom are known to be LGBT.

"The LGBT community had reached out to the church several times before Prop. 8 and we've never been able to connect," says Jim Dabakis, head of the Utah Democratic Party and cofounder of the Utah Pride Center in Salt Lake, who has been involved in these conversations. But after the Prop. 8 backlash, the Utah LGBT community, along with national leaders, commenced a series of meetings with church hierarchy. The first meetings were "a bit uncomfortable," Dabakis recalls. But then, "as we began to meet, and we began to introduce our families, it became much less an issue about legal points, what is the definition of a family, what kind of overarching legal principals are involved, and much more about Christian values and how people should be treated. Minds changed on both sides."

Not everything has changed, of course. The church still filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court in support of Prop. 8, although it doesn't read like the same sort of full-throated anti-gay sentiment that drove the initiative. The church lawyers who drafted the document seem to have bent over backward to express how much they like gays, and to frame the issue in terms of states' rights, as opposed to morality.

Mormon church doctrine still defines homosexuality as a sin. The gay Mormon website clarifies that while having a same-sex attraction is not a sin, acting on it is. Mayne was only able to take on his leadership role in the church after he broke up with his longtime partner and was single again. And noncelibate LGBT members are still excluded from "temple recommends"—access to the church's most sacred spaces and ceremonies.

Dabakis says that there are still many points of disagreement. "I don't think the church has given one iota on gay marriage—maybe they never will—and neither have we. On the other hand, we have found a lot of commonalities that we can work on," he says, pointing towards the joint efforts to help homeless kids.

The LGBT community's best evidence of change within the church is that last year, in the only four states ever to pass marriage equality laws, the church "did not provide one dime or one volunteer," Dabakis says. He adds that in Maryland, when one local Mormon leader tried to organize to oppose a pro-marriage-equality initiative, the church shut her down.

Regardless of how the Supreme Court rules in the Prop. 8 case, the church responsible for its passage has been permanently changed for the better. In Mayne's view, this all means that Prop. 8, with all its ugliness, happened for a reason: "I believe in our attempt to nail shut the Pandora’s box of gay marriage, we essentially blew the lid off of it."
So still against it, but not campaigning against it, and not demonising gay youth. I can live with that.

Yeah, lots of bold, but it's a good read.
 

Spottty

Neo Member
First off. I'll just mention I'm Mormon.

I have nothing against anyone who is gay as do any of my friends in the church. To each their own is how I have always felt.
I'm not against them being married either. I don't see the problem in that.

I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let gay couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.

I know I might take some flack on this but it's kinda like a club and that's a club rule. Don't like it, don't be in the club.

But overall. I'm happy that it looks like gay people will be allowed to marry. If its what makes you happy then go for it!
 

Dead Man

Member
Too little, too late, motherfuckers.

Baby steps. Organisational inertia is pretty hard to overcome.

First off. I'll just mention I'm Mormon.

I have nothing against anyone who is gay as do any of my friends in the church. To each their own is how I have always felt.
I'm not against them being married either. I don't see the problem in that.

I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let gay couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.

I know I might take some flack on this but it's kinda like a club and that's a club rule. Don't like it, don't be in the club.

But overall. I'm happy that it looks like gay people will be allowed to marry. If its what makes you happy then go for it!

I can't think of too many people that want to force any church to solemnise marriages they don't agree with. People want the civil right to civil marriage.
 

Kettch

Member
More likely they figured out they were wasting too much money for too little gain, rather than any ideological change.

I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let gay couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.

I don't know what being sealed means, but freedom or religion means your church isn't going to be forced to do anything. This has never been an issue. You could refuse to marry straight couples if you wanted to.
 
They read the writing on the wall that being anti-gay marriage is a lost cause and don't want to go down with a sinking ship.

Well they are a business, and Mormonism is one of the most successful recent startups in this industry in part because of how easily they can change their fundamental tenets.

Like when they decided that dark skin was not the Mark of Cain after all.
 
Sorry, am I supposed to be grateful that gays are only being passively demonized now?

Baby steps. Organisational inertia is pretty hard to overcome.

Yeah, I know it's necessary part of the process but I'm still not going to tolerate their stance until they support full equality, and no amount of focus-shifting from direct marginalization to "states rights" is going to soften my opinion in the meantime.
 

Dead Man

Member
Sorry, am I supposed to be grateful that gays are only being passively demonized now?



Yeah, I know it's necessary part of the process but I'm still not going to tolerate their stance until they support full equality, and no amount of focus-shifting from direct marginalization to "states rights" is going to soften my opinion in the meantime.

Did you read the article? Seems like they are doing some pretty useful things in terms of lbgt youth outreach.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Well they are a business, and Mormonism is one of the most successful recent startups in this industry in part because of how easily they can change their fundamental tenets.

Like when they decided that dark skin was not the Mark of Cain after all.

Pretty much every relatively popular religion can change their fundamental tenets when its convenient. That's why they stick around for more than a few years at a time.
 

Exuro

Member
Do they still think that black people are inherently evil and the devils children?
Devils children? Mormon's believe the devil(and jesus) are our brothers. It's just something along the lines of black people siding with the devil back in pre-existence or something.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Devils children? Mormon's believe the devil(and jesus) are our brothers. It's just something along the lines of black people siding with the devil back in pre-existence or something.

Not accurate. People who sided with the devil never get to have an earthly life.
 

MrHicks

Banned
funny how "god's laws" change with society
if the bible or whathever religious text says gay marriage is wrong then logically according to religious people it should be wrong FOREVER

but when society as a whole accepts something its suddenly "well what god actually meant was.....the thing we totally were against for hundreds of years is totally cool now"
 
Did you read the article? Seems like they are doing some pretty useful things in terms of lbgt youth outreach.
I'm glad they're reaching out and no longer excommunicating (single) gay Mormons, but when the church still defines the action of homosexuality as a sin I can't take them very seriously. I'm sure they define premarital heterosexual sex as a sin as well, but at least in those cases they have the option to get married.
 

commedieu

Banned
Sorry, am I supposed to be grateful that gays are only being passively demonized now?



Yeah, I know it's necessary part of the process but I'm still not going to tolerate their stance until they support full equality, and no amount of focus-shifting from direct marginalization to "states rights" is going to soften my opinion in the meantime.

+1

There were "clubs" that didn't allow blacks too. Doesnt make it any less of civil rights rape.

I'm happy to see baby steps, but its still the same message. Damage has already been done to california thanks to the mormons prop 8 smear campaign. Its disgusting. What You do in the bed has nothing to do with religion. Any real god loves all creations.

Problem with this, man has molested religion to serve his agendas. Then hides behind it as if god backs it up. (As if that back up matters) when talking segregation.

But happy to see that all these idiots are realizing they are part of a minority. And since it affects their pockets, only now will it change. But ill take it.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
funny how "god's laws" change with society
if the bible or whathever religious text says gay marriage is wrong then logically according to religious people it should be wrong FOREVER

but when society as a whole accepts something its suddenly "well what god actually meant was.....the thing we totally were against for hundreds of years is totally cool now"

The church still believes it is wrong to practice homosexuality. They are now acknowledging that people can't help feeling same-sex attraction. If the church ever straight up says, "Gay sex is all gravy." You would see millions leave the church. The few that left for Prop 8 will seem like a trickle of water from a tap in a bathroom in Niagra Falls.
 
funny how "god's laws" change with society
if the bible or whathever religious text says gay marriage is wrong then logically according to religious people it should be wrong FOREVER

but when society as a whole accepts something its suddenly "well what god actually meant was.....the thing we totally were against for hundreds of years is totally cool now"

Polygamy was strangely no longer acceptable in the LDS church at the same time Utah was up for statehood, a status they would not have been granted if polygamy were allowed. It was abolished in the cuirch in 1890 and Utah was granted statehood in 1896.

As was said earlier in this thread, the strength of the Mormon religion is it's ability to rewrite it's policies and even it's history whenever it wants and the vast majority of it's members do not blink an eye.
 
Polygamy was strangely no longer acceptable in the LDS church at the same time Utah was up for statehood, a status they would not have been granted if polygamy were allowed. It was abolished in the cuirch in 1890 and Utah was granted statehood in 1896.

As was said earlier in this thread, the strength of the Mormon religion is it's ability to rewrite it's policies and even it's history whenever it wants and the vast majority of it's members do not blink an eye.

It's called revelation. You don't question revelation.
 

Mononoke

Banned
funny how "god's laws" change with society
if the bible or whathever religious text says gay marriage is wrong then logically according to religious people it should be wrong FOREVER

but when society as a whole accepts something its suddenly "well what god actually meant was.....the thing we totally were against for hundreds of years is totally cool now"

One could say this about the Mormon churches sudden "flexibility" of their practices, when it comes to the question of their tax exemption status. God's words can be interpreted differently, when it comes to money.
 

Strike

Member
nothing_stops_this_train-9763.gif

It's a losing battle.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let gay couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.

*time travel to 1976*

I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let black couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.
 

Exuro

Member
Not accurate. People who sided with the devil never get to have an earthly life.
Ah right. Guess it's just those that were less faithful or atleast that's what Joseph Fielding Smith seems to indicate.

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).
 

Mononoke

Banned
+1

There were "clubs" that didn't allow blacks too. Doesnt make it any less of civil rights rape.

I'm happy to see baby steps, but its still the same message. Damage has already been done to california thanks to the mormons prop 8 smear campaign. Its disgusting. What You do in the bed has nothing to do with religion. Any real god loves all creations.

Problem with this, man has molested religion to serve his agendas. Then hides behind it as if god backs it up. (As if that back up matters) when talking segregation.

But happy to see that all these idiots are realizing they are part of a minority. And since it affects their pockets, only now will it change. But ill take it.

With regards to religions suddenly accepting gays in their church: If it's what they believe, then questioning one aspect of their religion (and changing it), should make them question all of it. And that's the flaw of religion. As someone else pointed out, it's funny how often the bible is interpreted differently the moment society decides something should be viewed a different way. If the bible is the bible...then shouldn't it NEVER be changed or challenged? No matter how much society says certain aspects of it are wrong?

If you start to say practices in the bible are wrong due to societies views, then you might as well just throw out the bible all together. The bible isn't meant to be a breathing/living document like the Constitution, that adapts with the times.
 

Dead Man

Member
I'm glad they're reaching out and no longer excommunicating (single) gay Mormons, but when the church still defines the action of homosexuality as a sin I can't take them very seriously. I'm sure they define premarital heterosexual sex as a sin as well, but at least in those cases they have the option to get married.

I'll be honest, I care less about how it treats members than how it treats non members. People can leave the church, they can't stop being gay.
 

Exuro

Member
They never believed either of those things.
Jesus and the devil are our brothers(spiritually, not physically). This is pretty well known doctrine.

That is unless you were referring to the second part which I was pretty fuzzy about and was already discussed. Been a while since I've been to church.
 

commedieu

Banned
With regards to religions suddenly accepting gays in their church. If it's what they believe, then questioning one aspect of their religion (and changing it), should make them question all of it. And that's the flaw of religion. As someone else pointed out, it's funny how often the bible is interpreted differently the moment society decides something should be viewed a different way. If the bible is the bible...then shouldn't it NEVER be changed or challenged? No matter how much society says certain aspects of it are wrong?

If you start to say practices in the bible are wrong due to societies views, then you might as well just throw out the bible all together. The bible isn't meant to be a breathing/living document like the Constitution, that adapts with the times.

I mean, 1000 percent agreed. Just such a frustrating subject right now, and its great to see progress. But the double standards of scripture infuriate me more than most things as a reason. So many versions, so much picking and choosing. Yet, this is the one set in stone. At the cost of your fellow human beings and citizens.

Gjgag... using phone at work. Cant get it all out. But appreciate the post.
 
I really think this all flows from the re-election of Obama.

Things were shifting pretty hard to the right up to that point in regional politics and I think many factions thought that there was a chance that it was indicative of a broader, national shift to the right. Everything was building up to that point; if he lost, it would have validated the conservative world view.

The re-election of Obama (or rather the expression of a sentiment against that move to the right) has kind of been a wake up call that the nation is shifting away from the right (but towards center as opposed to left).

We've seen a softening on gay marriage, a softening on Obamacare, a softening on stimulus money, etc.
 
Well, that's not the official stance of the church by any stretch of the imagination. I don't know what your bishop or whoever else was involved in your council were smoking, but the church as a whole certainly doesn't believe this.

Who the fuck do you think you are to spout such ignorance and wave off my personal experience with the LDS church?

https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/sexual-purity?lang=eng

"The Lord’s standard regarding sexual purity is clear and unchanging. Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Do not allow the media, your peers, or others to persuade you that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable. It is not. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious. They defile the sacred power God has given us to create life. The prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost (see Alma 39:5)."
 

JCizzle

Member
Who the fuck do you think you are to spout such ignorance and wave off my personal experience with the LDS church?

https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/sexual-purity?lang=eng

"The Lord’s standard regarding sexual purity is clear and unchanging. Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Do not allow the media, your peers, or others to persuade you that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable. It is not. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious. They defile the sacred power God has given us to create life. The prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost (see Alma 39:5)."

Wtffffff
 
First off. I'll just mention I'm Mormon.

I have nothing against anyone who is gay as do any of my friends in the church. To each their own is how I have always felt.
I'm not against them being married either. I don't see the problem in that.

I think that what the church is scared of is being forced to let gay couples be sealed in the temple. I am against that. It's against our beliefs for that to happen.
I'm fine for them to be married, just not sealed.

I know I might take some flack on this but it's kinda like a club and that's a club rule. Don't like it, don't be in the club.

But overall. I'm happy that it looks like gay people will be allowed to marry. If its what makes you happy then go for it!
I really don't care. If that's what the religion says, well, people are free to practice whatever. Their rights.
 
HA!
No.

They still consider it as a sin.
Most of the older LDS individuals I know hate the homosexuals that live here as they "offend their beliefs".

Fuck that.
 
Pretty much every relatively popular religion can change their fundamental tenets when its convenient. That's why they stick around for more than a few years at a time.

No, you will literally never see the Catholic Church say that it's okay for gays to be married because that's goes straight to their theological concept of marriage. It's not up for discussion. For the Mormons their leadership can just say that they've had a new revelation and be done with it.
 
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