So true. Its going to happen and everyone knows it.
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Mormon Church Abandons Its Crusade Against Gay Marriage
- Thread starter Dead Man
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So true. Its going to happen and everyone knows it.
I wouldn't say that. Not actively fucking over millions of non church members seems like a bit of a change.
Preventing campaigning against marriage equality amendments seems like a pretty good step. You can't expect them to change their religion. I think getting even a small understanding that their religion does not get to determine secular laws is good progress.
Trent Strong
Banned
Look at the bolded. You just contradicted yourself. Who's ignorant? Why would I not wave off your personal experience? Your personal experience is anecdotal evidence. Why would I think that what your one bishop did represents official church doctrine?
Explain to me why you think or are "scared" that churches will be forced to do anything.
I'll wait.
Puppet Shadow
Member
Wait, not believing in the Holy Ghost is on the same level as murder? In other words, a more serious crime than rape? That's fucked up.
And to think I came into this thread to congratulate the mormon's for getting with the times. Not attacking anyone mormon, just your churches policies.
You might be interested in reading this essay to gauge how legitimate such a fear is, as well as seeing a detailed history of opposition the church has had on the issue
http://www.affirmation.org/against_marriage_equality/prelude.shtml
SillyEskimo
Member
Seriously, I feel like I'm talking to my 4yr old.
tan·ta·mount /ˈtantəˌmount/ - Equivalent in seriousness to; virtually the same as
I then link you the official LDS stance on sex before marriage that says it is second only to murder/denying the holy spirit.
With me so far? So, if murder/denying is a 10 then premarital sex is a 9. What else do you think is considered a 9? I don't think you'll draw the correct conclusion even based on everything I've said so far so I'll just tell you: child molestation/rape
I was informed of this fact several times by different members of the Bishopric during the weeks proceeding my Disfellowship.
--Can someone else read what I am saying and tell me if I am not being clear here? I feel like Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes talking to this guy.--
Everything I have stated from my personal experience is 100% correct and true with Mormon Doctrine. To dismiss it is not only and insult to me, but to all the church leaders that took part in my trial. Several of which were 5th and 6th generation Mormons deeply entrenched in the religion. A good amount of whom have gone onto much higher callings in the church.
Use this as a learning opportunity. You are not the LDS's personal knight. The religion has many crazy beliefs, this just happens to be one of them. If you disagree with the comparison, talk to your Elders. Don't simply turn a blind eye like so many Mormons do (which I actually referenced in an earlier post, yay me!).
How do you think power is cemented? If you don't make faith paramount and infer a material risk for unbelievers, you have a very shaky con job. This is why all the abrahamic religions are dicks about atheism and heresy/apostasy.
I appreciate you replying given the circumstances. I understand the woes of typing a forum post on a phone. Blek.
I guess I wasn't really trying to argue a point. It's just hard for me to understand how religions can exist in a modern day society. As society starts to change, socially there is a demand to change certain practices in the bible (or church practices). But I can't wrap my head around the idea of your religious tenants being adapted for new times. It seems to me, if you have to change your beliefs to keep up with society, then your beliefs aren't solid - and are always subject to change. And at that point, what are you even really basing your beliefs on anymore? Adapting and changing those things, IMO makes them lose credibility.
Then again, that is why I just try to say: You believe what you want, but don't force it on others. So if certain religion's want to ban gay marriage in their church okay. But don't tell others they can't marry under their religions, or non religions. You no longer have a say. No one is forcing you to allow gay marriages in your church.
Devolution
Member
Um people get kicked out of college for having sex. I don't think it's his personal experience.
Puppet Shadow
Member
This was a great read, thanks for sharing it. You really come away from it thinking that in 25 years, it will be seen as their previous racist policies, or as they put it... "those little tricks of history.
My favorite part (referring to Mormon's polygamy):
'Ironically, in the nineteenth century, Mormons argued that the traditional marriages of the majority were not threatened by allowing a small minority to marry differently.'
CornBurrito
Member
That's absolute bullshit. I'm not even religious, but stating that a god has to align with your personal opinions or isn't a god is bullshit. Humankind has conceived of multiple deities, and quite a few of them disliked or were neutral at best towards humans.
Winterfang
Banned
Better later than never.
Every Mormon I know has been SUPER nice and for some reason, most have tended to be either really handsome or beautiful.
SLC airport is full of good looking people too. It's like the opposite of Dallas and Newark.
And most of the Mormons I know are either lapsed or keep it on the DL. They do NOT like talking about their religion either way. Seems to be a source of genuine embarrassment for a few.
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Maybe you should get your 4 year old to join our discussion; his posts would be no less absurd.
You do realize that in your original post you claimed that premarital sex was tantamount not only to child molestation but to murder? And that the text you quoted said that sexual sin is second only to murder?
What the actual fuck do you think child molestation is? The text you quote covers "sexual sin", not just premarital sex! I can't confess to any knowledge of the Book of Mormon's contents but I'd be very surprised if they or any other Christian sect do not consider rape and molestation a sexual sin! Are they crimes? Check. Is crime sin? Check. Is sex involved? Check. Is child molestation covered in that text you quoted, then? Ding ding ding ding!
What nerve you have to talk down to Spottty!
EDIT: According to this commentary that passage isn't even talking about sexual sins only, but arrogance and boasting: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s4/s...a745a6bcd3b6/17e3f95ccdb5681a3d49d00ae8aa9fd5
I don't care if you're an ex-Mormon, you are literally pulling this "Premarital sex is as bad as child molestation" BS out of your ass.
Hate isn't a feeling that represents anything that the church believes in. That hate those individuals feel and exhibit is a sin they need to deal with.
Puppet Shadow
Member
I've noticed this as well. Kinda like the Stepford Wives of religion.
Every month or so for the last few years I had a nice couple come by and we talk for a few minutes on the front porch. Super nice people. About six months ago I had a very attractive and friendly asian couple swing by and introduce themselves, and they were so polite I didn't tell them I was already 'covered'. So now I get two visits a months, but I enjoy them coming by as their infectious smiles really perk up my day.
Trent Strong
Banned
Jesus Titty Fucking Christ. In your first post you claimed that Mormons believe pre-marital sex is as bad as murder. Then, in your second post, you link to an official Mormon website which states that murder is worse than premarital sex. Then, in your third post, you say that murder is tantamount to, that is to say equal to, premarital sex, and then a couple of sentences later, you say that murder is a 10 and premarital sex is a 9. Dude, I hate to tell you this...but 10 is not equal to 9. 10 is greater than 9. (And you just pulled murder = 10 and premarital sex = 9 out of your ass. Show me that in official church literature.) I mean, Jesus Horse Fucking Christ, what are you thinking? And as far as me not being the LDS church's personal knight and me talking to my Elders? I don't have Elders. I'm not a Mormon, I'm an atheist. More than that, I'm an anti-theist. I very anti-religious and anti-Mormon. I was just trying to inform you that the mormon church doesn't believe that premarital sex is as bad a murder. (Which you proved...by providing a link that proved me right and you wrong.)
Mormons go to prison for murder.
I mean, the quote he cited seems to pretty explicitly rank murder -> premarital sex as the 1-2 combo of really bad shit you can do other than denying their god. That's pretty extreme. You don't lay four sentences of groundwork describing premarital sex & cheating as bad, but then don't mean to imply that it's a sexual sin. The quote pretty clearly seems to do that.
Based on the quote, this seems to be the pecking order of mormon sins:
1. Denying god
2. Murder
3. Premarital sex & cheating
It might come across as embarrassment but it might be a show of respect to you as well.
Yes many people aren't comfortable talking about their beliefs because it can turn into a situation where they are trying to defend the church and their lifestyle. And then there are the times when we share our beliefs and others feel or act threatened by them.
This situation happens: I'm out for dinner with coworkers and some of them wanna get some beers. I'm asked why I don't want one. I tell them I don't drink alcohol. I'm asked why not. I tell them why (I'm not gonna deny who I am and what I believe in) and then suddenly other people don't want their beers anymore.
Like they feel that I'm judging them or something.
That is an awkward moment.
My thoughts are just because I don't drink doesnt mean they can't. My beliefs are for me. I chose this life for what I feel it gives me and for what I feel is right - for me.
So Stinkles maybe these people care about their relationship with you enough that they don't want to risk complicating things or they feel that mixing religious conversations with business doesn't always end well.
And yes the ratio of attractive people is healthy for sure.
I've tried to bring the curve down by enjoying high calorie beverages made by a doctor and video games but I seem to have had a minimal effect.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
The fact that pre-marital sex is considered second to murder is pretty absurd in and of itself.
There's also a lot of willful ignorance and an almost Orwellian level of control over information, especially with regards towards Church History.
The internet is one of the worst things to ever happen to the LDS Church, because it makes it harder for them to hide and control the flow of information.
Without context it makes little sense at all. But if we believe that the greatest power we have been given on this earth is the ability to create life then the misuse of that power is a great sin.
balladofwindfishes
Member
he did... I mean, it doesn't take a crazy amount of thinking to figure out that if x is worse than everything but y, then y must be greater than x, but greater than everything else. You're picking out stuff just to try and harp on him.
So do Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, Cannabals, Atheists, Rastafarians, Pastafarians and those following the official church of "murder everyone." This is meaningless to the discussion.
PaulExcellent
Member
Yep.
I agree.
Some were really good friends, but when it comes to that topic, they actually wished death to them. They're not my friends anymore.
Also, I have to edit my post. Not ALL hate them.
Just the older ones.
Quite a few of my generation doesn't much care.
I hang with those.
Escape Goat
Member
what are they going to do with all their "pray the gay away" camps?
Please tell me you are being sarcastic.
I said a few, all of whom I have spoken with about it - and they expressed embarrassment about specific aspects of doctrine, as well as the 'alienness' of the faith outside of its strongholds - in quite clear terms. Others, I can't speak for, some werent embarassed at all. It's not a religious thing, given that prosletysing is part of the faith. I think it's a social context thing. And I certainly wouldn't bring it up at work. Religion or politics.
But I've seen the alcohol thing you describe come up more than once.
Blake'sGrave
Member
How gracious of them, they can still go fuck themselves at this point though.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Why would you? Everything that has ever lived on earth can reproduce. Homo Sapiens are not specially gifted in this way. It was happening long before we ever got here and will continue after we're gone.
Also, come on. If two people love each other and decide to have sex before they get married, believing that that act is even remotely close to killing someone is ridiculous. Objectively ridiculous.
What? I didn't mean humans are more gifted than other species. I don't think any religions care if two unmarried dogs have sex.
And I'm not dropping doctrine here and quoting scripture. That's just the way I understand it and giving a casual conversation answer. Power given, power misused thing. I have said that before and it made sense to the people I was talking with, figured I hit paydirt with that one.
peaceiscloser
Member
Happy to see the LDS Church doing this. Anti-Gay rhetoric really was antithetical to how we should really be treating these people if we're supposed to be real Christians. It's destroyed so many lives of those outside and especially inside the church.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Baby steps, but at least it's in the right direction.
Sorry I didn't mean my comments to sound like I thought you were clueless or something.
I guess I was just sharing some of my thoughts from situations with coworkers. Religion creates some interesting situations in the work place. I can't count how many awkward conversations that have started with "what are you, a Mormon or something?".
I have gotten more skilled with how to handle these conversations now and they usually end with some comedic event.
Q: so do you have more than one wife
A: heck no, my wife won't even let me have a girl friend much less another wife. And I don't think I could handle all the extra sandwiches. I know that's a horrible thing to say but Mormon girls make great sandwiches man.
But being Mormon isnt a topic that usually is able to just slip by. No one ever seems to just say "oh you are Mormon? Cool" and just keeps giving me the tour at work.
Yes I am rambling. Wow. I'm not gonna bother deleting all of this cause then I would have nothing to show for the last 30 minutes of my life.
But I will let the thread get back on topic again.Not only is it an important start, but it's a massive change over a short period of time for a religion.
Compared to other social movements and how long changes have taken historically, gay rights seems to be moving forward at breakneck speed over the last few years.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I doubt their theology will change on the subject, but clearly they feel publicly fighting same sex marriage is a losing battle and waste of money.
Pretty soon the only anti-gay marriage holdout/energy hub will be in the south.
Pretty soon the only anti-gay marriage holdout/energy hub will be in the south.
Lagging society but possibly leading among larger or higher profile Christian denominations (?)
In my country it looks like a decision is coming up on whether to have a referendum to allow same sex marriage. The Catholic Church is already winding up its opposition and it looks like it's going to get ugly. I think this article offers a timely cautionary tale.
rocketknight
Member
Purple hair and transgender friends are apparently on an entirely different level of icky. I can't tell whether that's hilarious or tragic or both. It's consistently depressing to see people use the term LGBT while treating the T as just an "uncomfortable" afterthought, though. I guess we'll check in with them again in ten years, and it's certainly better to have them spending their money on helping homeless kids instead of oppressing them.
Bornstellar
Member
Definitely a social context thing. Unless you are really great friends with someone, you don't necessarily want to complicate your relationship with coworkers. If something comes up (like getting a beer), I'll honestly explain why I don't drink, etc. If people ask questions, I'll answer, but I certainly like to abide by the "don't discuss religion and politics" rule as much as possible in order to avoid any potential strain in a relationship. Though I've found that people figure things out pretty quickly (and will often ask questions) without me saying anything.
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