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[Yoritomo]

While I'm a non-believing member in good standing, the one thing that would make me be more willing to allow the church to participate in teaching morals is if they would change the shame game.

Families should never break up or shame someone for leaving the church. Believing young women shouldn't discount a man just because he didn't decide to serve a mission. Young men shouldn't discount a young woman because she's had sex. Teenage boys shouldn't hate themselves because they've masturbated. The church doesn't do damage directly but their norms and behaviors of the membership lead to passive bullying. Cautionary tales need to be eliminated from the pulpit and the lesson manual, most of them are bullshit anyway. So much of the terror of the church comes from people believing that being your brother's keeper means gossip and confrontation when they think he's backsliding, rather than actually helping someone. Judge not lest ye be judged is the exact opposite of what happens amongst the membership. If you don't believe that then talk to any 21 year old mormon boy who isn't on a mission how his dating prospects are amongst the young single adults and how their fathers react if they get past the initial barrier of finding a mormon girlfriend.

The church is a church for the successful. People who can tick all the boxes. Anything that doesn't tick all the boxes including moderate financial success and independence is seen as less worthy.

OK, that's my rant for the day.

 

[Thaedolus]

While I'm a non-believing member in good standing, the one thing that would make me be more willing to allow the church to participate in teaching morals is if they would change the shame game.

Families should never break up or shame someone for leaving the church. Believing young women shouldn't discount a man just because he didn't decide to serve a mission. Young men shouldn't discount a young woman because she's had sex. Teenage boys shouldn't hate themselves because they've masturbated. The church doesn't do damage directly but their norms and behaviors of the membership lead to passive bullying. Cautionary tales need to be eliminated from the pulpit and the lesson manual, most of them are bullshit anyway. So much of the terror of the church comes from people believing that being your brother's keeper means gossip and confrontation when they think he's backsliding, rather than actually helping someone. Judge not lest ye be judged is the exact opposite of what happens amongst the membership. If you don't believe that then talk to any 21 year old mormon boy who isn't on a mission how his dating prospects are amongst the young single adults and how their fathers react if they get past the initial barrier of finding a mormon girlfriend.

The church is a church for the successful. People who can tick all the boxes. Anything that doesn't tick all the boxes including moderate financial success and independence is seen as less worthy.

OK, that's my rant for the day.

I agree with everything you said, but if you're a non-believing member are you really in good standing? What do you say if the bishop asks if you sustain Monson as "Prophet, Seer and Revelator?"

 

[Yoritomo]

I agree with everything you said, but if you're a non-believing member are you really in good standing? What do you say if the bishop asks if you sustain Monson as "Prophet, Seer and Revelator?"

Better him than Packer.

But seriously if the church can wax philisophical on pretty fundamental points of doctrine like exaltation when presenting it to the world, I'm pretty sure I can sustain Monson as a pretty good guy until my immediate family is all married so I can at least attend their weddings. They'd better hurry up, if one of my daughters gets old enough to get into the young women's program before they get married I may have to out myself for my daughters' well being.

 

[ronito]

Better him than Packer.

But seriously if the church can wax philisophical on pretty fundamental points of doctrine like exaltation when presenting it to the world, I'm pretty sure I can sustain Monson as a pretty good guy until my immediate family is all married so I can at least attend their weddings. They'd better hurry up, if one of my daughters gets old enough to get into the young women's program before they get married I may have to out myself for my daughters' well being.

Sorry it's taken a few days to reply I've been trying to formulate a good reply for this and your previous post because I think it touches on so much that's wrong with the church, and what I think is the biggest problem the church faces right now, more than gay rights, more than media attention, more than a message that's stuck in the last century for many, more even than the internet. And frankly I don't know what the church can do to fix it.

I think the best way is to start out with this post from you. As I read it and the truth of it sunk in it blew my mind that I accepted this as OK. Let's be clear here. Here we have a man feigning belief as best he can for what? So that he wont be excluded from the weddings of those he loves. Because if he doesn't he wont be allowed to go.

Now I know those that believe will say things like "Well it's a sacred ordinance..." and I get it, I was sealed too. But the importance the church gives to a temple and temple only wedding excludes anyone who isn't not only mormon but mormon in good standing.

Which sorta brings me to the point of what the church's problem is. It's that it's little surprise that a religion that has exclusion worked into its very structure has members that act in exclusionary ways.

For example, in the church you cannot practice the priesthood at all if you're a woman, if you're a guy well you can't pass the sacrament unless you're older than 12, and you can't bless the sacrament unless you're older than 16, and you can't bless or perform ordinance unless you're older than 18-19. You can't be in the bishopric just as an elder. But if you don't keep the commandments you can't do any of the above.

So it is no surprise at all that members act the same way. I know apologists have the whole "the church is perfect but the members aren't." ever at the ready but it's been my experience when I go into a company to save a "toxic" team it usually isn't because the team itself is toxic it's that the organization allowed or even fostered it.

A good example is general conference. There's always one talk about accepting those that have left or aren't mormon. But then there are five talks about the "ever darkening world" and evils of the world and how bad the world is. Followed by talks about how lucky we are to have the truth. Follow that up with a priesthood session of "don't be the weak link that puts your family's eternity in jeopardy!!" You've just told them that exclusion is orders of magnitude more important than accepting those who aren't.

Sorta like Packer's press conference talking about how anti-gay bullying is just wrong. I was like "You mean those gays you called an abomination? The ones you said threaten decency and very structure of our society? Those gays? Cause that bull's out of the pen already, and you let it out."

I get that with any group there's exclusion. Sports fans of one team don't like the other. Sony-bots hate X-bots and everyone hates Nintendo fanbois. But in those it's the rarity to hear someone stop being friends with another because they liked the Giants or something. But to hear that someone was shunned from their family and friends because they left the church isn't normal but it also isn't uncommon. So one must ask why isn't it uncommon? Surely mormons aren't worse family and friends than other people. So the only thing left is the church.

I've seen tons of marriages torn apart because one spouse thinks they can't get to the appropriate level of heaven with a spouse that stopped believing (which is ironic because I'd think if you were willing to abandon someone you loved for salvation you failed the salvation test). I personally lost all but a handful of mormon friends that I had when I left. And those that stayed haven't stayed too close. When my wife and I decided to get married I had been divorced and needed a sealing clearance to get married in the temple. That could've taken days, weeks, months, years? We just didn't know and after consulting with our bishops we decided to get married and do the sealing later. This caused all kinds of drama with my wife's family, we went from being the favorites to suddenly being "persona non grata" to many in the family. And got several "how could you"s? and more than one "What am I supposed to tell my kids?!"

Of course looking back at it, it should have been utterly unsurprising. The church, as someone pointed out, is very good at giving check lists. Get the priesthood, go on mission, get married, have kids, endure til the end. And with its emphasis on exaltation and all the ordinances it takes to get there combined with the eternal family idea it's no surprise that people just freak out when there's something that's not according to the check list. It leads people to have kids before they're ready, it causes people to get married before they're ready, it causes people that are perfectly young and normal feel like a menace to society because they're not married yet.

And frankly I don't know what the church can do to fix it. I mean honestly I can't call a religion that even has a heaven that's split into different glories depending on how righteous you are anything other than exclusionary. It's therefore unsurprising when some of its members act the same way their church does.

I'm not doing a good job of putting this down. But I do think it's a huge issue. Because exlcusion works both ways, inward and outward. And when it happens inward those people start to look elsewhere and leave. Oh well I guess I'll stop trying to explain and maybe pick up some other day.

 

[Yoritomo]

You've been very clear. I just had a conversation with my little sister who's going through rough times because my family doesn't approve that she's dating a non-member. She's the happiest she's ever been and everyone is expecting her life to be terrible because of his religious affiliation (none, he's a very understanding agnostic/atheist who really seems to love my sister). I let her know my feelings about the church. She cried. She had felt alone. We hugged and talked and cried a bit. I let her know that if she needed it I would stand up for her no matter what it cost me with the rest of the family.

 

[mik]

That's awesome. You're lucky to have each other.

everyone is expecting her life to be terrible because of his religious affiliation

This also drives me crazy. When my wife and I finally told the bishopric that we didn't believe and hadn't for some time--which was why we were inactive and found it odd that they were in our house asking us to teach primary--the first counselor's reaction was maddening. He basically launched into a monologue about how, when he found he and his wife were unhappy, those were the times it was most important to cling to the gospel, yadda yadda. It took about four tries for us to explain that we were not unhappy. In fact, we were really pleased to have an entire bonus day--Sunday--to spend with our kids, guilt-free.

 

[ronito]

You've been very clear. I just had a conversation with my little sister who's going through rough times because my family doesn't approve that she's dating a non-member. She's the happiest she's ever been and everyone is expecting her life to be terrible because of his religious affiliation (none, he's a very understanding agnostic/atheist who really seems to love my sister). I let her know my feelings about the church. She cried. She had felt alone. We hugged and talked and cried a bit. I let her know that if she needed it I would stand up for her no matter what it cost me with the rest of the family.

It breaks my heart to see stuff like this.

I get so tired when people say "You left the church but you can't leave it alone!" Yeah because of stuff like this. I see it all the time. My family members, my friends. I see it practically everyday. People made to feel inferior or somehow broken for things that people should feel happy about.

"What you have a boyfriend? That's awesome!"
"You're in your mid twenties and unmarried? Great. Enjoy it!"
"Your spouse leaving the church? Well, at least they love you enough to look past that."

All of these are really great replies, but how often do you actually hear them instead of,

"Your boyfriend isn't mormon? Isn't an eternal family important to you?"
"You're in your mid twenties and unmarried? There must be something wrong with you."
"Doesn't your spouse love you enough to make a forever family with you?"

Not very, sadly.

And like I said people like to blame it on membership but at the same time what you say as a leader matters. You can only talk about an 'ever darkening world' so often before you make the world your enemy.

That's awesome. You're lucky to have each other.



This also drives me crazy. When my wife and I finally told the bishopric that we didn't believe and hadn't for some time--which was why we were inactive and found it odd that they were in our house asking us to teach primary--the first counselor's reaction was maddening. He basically launched into a monologue about how, when he found he and his wife were unhappy, those were the times it was most important to cling to the gospel, yadda yadda. It took about four tries for us to explain that we were not unhappy. In fact, we were really pleased to have an entire bonus day--Sunday--to spend with our kids, guilt-free.

So when that Elders Quorum president stopped by to just see how things were We spent like 2 hours talking and I told him how frustrating it was to have the typical reactions. Everything from "You left the church, tell me who offended you." to "Well you need to work on your marriage. Because you should love each other enough to be together forever." to "You just didn't understand the scriptures." to "Everyone can be forgiven for their sins. I'm sure you can be too." And he brought up something that I had never thought of. He had said that a lot of people did that as a defense mechanism in his words "A happy, moral, ex mormon that doesn't try to destroy the church and really knows his religion. You're not supposed to exist." I had never thought of that.

 

[Brianemone]

I've seen tons of marriages torn apart because one spouse thinks they can't get to the appropriate level of heaven with a spouse that stopped believing (which is ironic because I'd think if you were willing to abandon someone you loved for salvation you failed the salvation test).
.

My wife and I very nearly could have fallen victim to this exact thing. I stopped going to church about 5 years ago and for about the four last years we really struggled, we separated twice, almost got to the point of divorce as we separated for 9 months at one point and even started seeing other people. We put the religion aside. She realized that her family telling her she shouldn't be with me if I wasn't going to church was spiteful and not actually heartfelt advice. We went to a marriage councellor for about 4 months and have been working very hard on getting to know each other as real people.

Its tough though and with the amount of outside pressure that the church seems to constantly exert or cause I can see why there are so many issues. I wonder how many older active members are actually happy, I know if I had remained for the sake of my wife I wouldn't have ever experienced true happiness, it would have always eaten away at my mind.

 

[CorvoSol]

For what it's worth on the subject at hand, my oldest sister wed a man who is not a member after conceiving a child out of wedlock with him. I was on my mission at the time, and kinda frustrated over the fact that something that wasn't picturesque was happening back home. I remember complaining about it to my Mission President, who delivered a beautiful verbal slap to me over it. "President!" I protested, "I don't even KNOW this guy!" and he said, "And so what, Elder? You're not the one marrying him!" After that, my attitude changed a lot and I made the effort to know the guy, and I've come to actually like him a lot more than I thought I would. He's respectful of my sister, he has similar interests to her, they seem very much in love, and both of them are doing their best to raise that nephew of mine, who is an adorable little kid and has brought nothing but happiness to my family.

Beyond that, I can't comment much. I had two non-member friends come to visit me in town this weekend, and it was really nice for the most part. I let them tour the area and took them up into the Temple just so they could say they'd been, and I thought that the elderly gentleman inside treated them nicely. I can't say the whole day went perfectly, but I don't blame all the negative treatment they got on people here in town. Part of it was my friends being idiots (asking where they could get coffee at the school bookstore was stupid and they knew better than to do that), part of it was my fault for not properly informing them of things (I should've mentioned some of the local customs, and I parked them in the wrong spot, which got them booted, and for which I paid), but some of it was amazingly embarrassing for me, particularly the company that booted them. I called the number and had them come out, and tried to explain the situation, that I had spoken to management, and that they'd ok'd us to park there, and that I must have misunderstood where they'd ok'd us to park, and the guy in the van goes "No they didn't" before I'm even done saying that they'd ok'd us to park there, and after I'd finished, he says it AGAIN and adds, "So I know you didn't talk to management."

Now, I don't know if any of you have ever seen me lose my temper on this site, because I endeavor to keep it in check, but my family has always been a short-tempered one, and I had to REALLY bite my tongue as this guy called me a liar in front of my friends. It was, hands down, the worst thing I've ever seen happen in this town. I felt SO embarrassed because I'd wanted so much for my friends to have a GOOD impression of Rexburg and a predominantly Mormon society, and then THIS happens. If it weren't for the fact that I have been called worse and been treated worse by members of the Church than this, I would have reacted much more poorly. Thankfully, on my mission there was a man who more or less cussed me out in the chapel during Sacrament meeting because I'd had the gall to shoosh him for talking at the top of his lungs during the Sacrament, so I'm capable of handling rough treatment at the hands of members.

What else? Uh, no dates to report because I've been swamped by homework and all the women I know are either married or 5 years younger than me. No social life because homework. Almost done with the paperwork to move out of my apartment to another at the end of the semester, which I look forward to as another fresh start.

Oh! And I met my friend's fiance for the first time today. My friend is a girl I met on my mission toward the very beginning and who I served in her ward for awhile before she went on her mission, where she served with her future fiance. It was nice to actually meet the guy, because I've been worried for awhile now that he thinks I'm into his woman, and I really want to defuse that as fast as I can, because I'm really not.

I concede that being single is persistently more and more annoying, but confess that I don't have the time for any kind of relationship right now anyway.

 

[ronito]

For what it's worth on the subject at hand, my oldest sister wed a man who is not a member after conceiving a child out of wedlock with him. I was on my mission at the time, and kinda frustrated over the fact that something that wasn't picturesque was happening back home. I remember complaining about it to my Mission President, who delivered a beautiful verbal slap to me over it. "President!" I protested, "I don't even KNOW this guy!" and he said, "And so what, Elder? You're not the one marrying him!" After that, my attitude changed a lot and I made the effort to know the guy, and I've come to actually like him a lot more than I thought I would. He's respectful of my sister, he has similar interests to her, they seem very much in love, and both of them are doing their best to raise that nephew of mine, who is an adorable little kid and has brought nothing but happiness to my family.

Yeah I get it there are good people in the church that "get it" but not everyone has someone like your president there to slap them down in fact many just have more people that are equally indignant.

As to your drama dude, I didn't even know Rexburg had booting. And on the women front, seriously just stop trying. I always found that when I wasn't trying I got the most attention from women.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I still think many of you guys have issues separating the people from the church. If someone is going to be an idiot and use the church's teachings for justification, that's on them. Heck, they'd probably be an idiot and use something else for justification if you removed the church from their lives.

Nobody on the inside is surprised by the increasing polarization going within the church. General authorities have been saying for years how a line is being drawn and it's going to become clear where we choose to stand. In that process, if some people decide to become modern day pharisees, that's their choice, but it's not the choice Christ would like them to make. But again, that's the individual's fault, just as it was the fault of the pharisees during Christ's ministry.

 

[ronito]

I still think many of you guys have issues separating the people from the church. If someone is going to be an idiot and use the church's teachings for justification, that's on them. Heck, they'd probably be an idiot and use something else for justification if you removed the church from their lives.

Nobody on the inside is surprised by the increasing polarization going within the church. General authorities have been saying for years how a line is being drawn and it's going to become clear where we choose to stand. In that process, if some people decide to become modern day pharisees, that's their choice, but it's not the choice Christ would like them to make. But again, that's the individual's fault, just as it was the fault of the pharisees during Christ's ministry.

But that's my whole point. When Monson gets up there and says a mission is the duty of every worthy young man that's fine. But then you can't be surprised when people see a young man that's not on a mission and the first thing they think is "Well if he's not on a mission he must not be worthy." Yeah, they'd be wrong to think that. But you can't just put up your hands and be like "That's on them! We never said to judge!" No, the church didn't, but they did draw a line in the sand. As a leader, I know what happens when I draw a line in the sand. I create a segregation. That's basic leadership.

I'm interested though about your second point. About the polarization in the church. I was talking to a mormon "friend" not so long ago and he gave me his thoughts on the polarization and the lines being drawn. I'm interested to see what you think of them, because I'm fairly certain he's got a very different interpretation of it.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I'm interested though about your second point. About the polarization in the church. I was talking to a mormon "friend" not so long ago and he gave me his thoughts on the polarization and the lines being drawn. I'm interested to see what you think of them, because I'm fairly certain he's got a very different interpretation of it.

I think it means lots of things. Few things in the church are literal or only charged with a single meaning. I think it means that you'll choose between right and wrong. You'll choose between helping your brother and turning your back on them. You'll choose to forgive or choose to let pride make you angry. You'll choose to love others unconditionally or you'll condemn.

It's wrong that people mistake lines for walls. A line you can reach across and embrace someone without stepping over.

But again, I don't blame the church for that. I blame the membership for not studying the words of our leaders. With proper study, you'd easily see that Christ's doctrine is full of lines, not walls.

 

[Yoritomo]

I still think many of you guys have issues separating the people from the church. If someone is going to be an idiot and use the church's teachings for justification, that's on them. Heck, they'd probably be an idiot and use something else for justification if you removed the church from their lives.

Nobody on the inside is surprised by the increasing polarization going within the church. General authorities have been saying for years how a line is being drawn and it's going to become clear where we choose to stand. In that process, if some people decide to become modern day pharisees, that's their choice, but it's not the choice Christ would like them to make. But again, that's the individual's fault, just as it was the fault of the pharisees during Christ's ministry.

The problem is that these pharisees extend up the chain. Were these local leaders only it would be understandable, but the "perfect" church doesn't allow for outside chain of command intervention unless something very serious is going on.

Imagine for a second, that everything is made up. Imagine that instead of the church and a religious leader called of god that there was a neighborhood club that you were a member of. This country club selects a random but successful and active club member to be a leader.

Now imagine that leader asking your 14 year old daughter whether she touches herself, or asking probing question about her kissing her boyfriend. "Did he touch your breast? Outside the clothes or inside the clothes? Did he touch you between the legs? Did he do that on top or inside of your pants?" Imagine the man with no training giving your son advice that if he doesn't stop masturbating he will never serve a mission. Imagine if this untrained person gave sexual advice to couples. Imagine if he told individuals that if their spouse didn't decide to re-up their membership to the country club that they should leave their spouse. If God does exist and the LDS church is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth. God is not doing a very good job of managing it. If God does not exist then the church itself is a pernicious organization that robs people of dignity and influences people with shame and fear of castigation by ostracizing them. This public pride and shaming occurs even in areas of ambiguity, like caffeine, masturbation, sexual activity within marriage, interracial marriage, and this is mostly due to historical baggage that has gone out of style or a complete lack of clarification.

Life is easy if you're like me and mormon. Non-poor, No mental health issues, white, straight, able to have children, married to a good spouse. For anyone outside of that narrow purview the church is a cause of shame, pain, frustration, and self-loathing because mormons are taught that WORLDLY blessings come from righteousness. If you believe that a fast, denying yourself food and water, can help you get a job, and your lack of faith limits your opportunity, then what else can result but shame when you don't get the job, marry the girl, have the kids, go on the mission. There's one thing to be said about feeling sorrow for your sins but people are made to feel wrong and evil for struggling. To struggle is the very nature of humility, to doubt is the very foundation of struggle. Those who have the humility to doubt and seek truth are told that "some things that are true are not very useful," and they're told this by an apostle.

 

[ronito]

I think it means lots of things. Few things in the church are literal or only charged with a single meaning. I think it means that you'll choose between right and wrong. You'll choose between helping your brother and turning your back on them. You'll choose to forgive or choose to let pride make you angry. You'll choose to love others unconditionally or you'll condemn.

It's wrong that people mistake lines for walls. A line you can reach across and embrace someone without stepping over.

But again, I don't blame the church for that. I blame the membership for not studying the words of our leaders. With proper study, you'd easily see that Christ's doctrine is full of lines, not walls.

So interesting.
As you might've guessed the guy I talked to took a very much different approach going down what I'd call the "Pharisee" path. Saying there needs to be a line drawn between those who stand up for what's right and what's not.

Really I'm fascinated by this stuff.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

So interesting.
As you might've guessed the guy I talked to took a very much different approach going down what I'd call the "Pharisee" path. Saying there needs to be a line drawn between those who stand up for what's right and what's not.

Really I'm fascinated by this stuff.

Well, he's wrong. I don't like absolute statements very much, but in this case, he's 100% wrong. Rather than looking for the 1 lost sheep, he seems to be clapping his hands and stomping his feet hoping it will run further away. I don't know what justification there is for that type of behavior other than complete misunderstanding.

The problem is that these pharisees extend up the chain. Were these local leaders only it would be understandable, but the "perfect" church doesn't allow for outside chain of command intervention unless something very serious is going on.

Imagine for a second, that everything is made up. Imagine that instead of the church and a religious leader called of god that there was a neighborhood club that you were a member of. This country club selects a random but successful and active club member to be a leader.

Now imagine that leader asking your 14 year old daughter whether she touches herself, or asking probing question about her kissing her boyfriend. "Did he touch your breast? Outside the clothes or inside the clothes? Did he touch you between the legs? Did he do that on top or inside of your pants?" Imagine the man with no training giving your son advice that if he doesn't stop masturbating he will never serve a mission. Imagine if this untrained person gave sexual advice to couples. Imagine if he told individuals that if their spouse didn't decide to re-up their membership to the country club that they should leave their spouse. If God does exist and the LDS church is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth. God is not doing a very good job of managing it. If God does not exist then the church itself is a pernicious organization that robs people of dignity and influences people with shame and fear of castigation by ostracizing them. This public pride and shaming occurs even in areas of ambiguity, like caffeine, masturbation, sexual activity within marriage, interracial marriage, and this is mostly due to historical baggage that has gone out of style or a complete lack of clarification.

Life is easy if you're like me and mormon. Non-poor, No mental health issues, white, straight, able to have children, married to a good spouse. For anyone outside of that narrow purview the church is a cause of shame, pain, frustration, and self-loathing because mormons are taught that WORLDLY blessings come from righteousness. If you believe that a fast, denying yourself food and water, can help you get a job, and your lack of faith limits your opportunity, then what else can result but shame when you don't get the job, marry the girl, have the kids, go on the mission. There's one thing to be said about feeling sorrow for your sins but people are made to feel wrong and evil for struggling. To struggle is the very nature of humility, to doubt is the very foundation of struggle. Those who have the humility to doubt and seek truth are told that "some things that are true are not very useful," and they're told this by an apostle.

The problem with this scenario though is that the church is not a country club and I'm not wired mentally or spiritually that I can see it as such. I get what you're saying, but that's not the reality of things as I see and perceive them to be.

 

[ronito]

Well, he's wrong. I don't like absolute statements very much, but in this case, he's 100% wrong. Rather than looking for the 1 lost sheep, he seems to be clapping his hands and stomping his feet hoping it will run further away. I don't know what justification there is for that type of behavior other than complete misunderstanding.

Oh I agree. But what I find so fascinating is how open to interpretation the church is.
For him he sees it as a fight against the forces of evil versus the forces of good (think war in heaven) others take it as the church needs to be more inclusive. Others yet take it to mean that the church needs to be more hermit like.

I minored in religion and I find it interesting that in a religion that has such a strict hierarchy/leadership that there can be so many different interpretations of it. Really people like to say it happens with all religions but I haven't really seen this much in most other religions. I mean I'm sure if I asked him about your interpretation he'd say you're wrong, if I asked someone else they'd probably say you're both wrong and so on and so forth.

I don't know why but I just find it interesting. Like I've said many times there are as many ways to be mormon as their are mormons. Which is paradoxical because there is a prophet and leadership that should enforce uniformity and a whole correlation committee.

 

[Yoritomo]

Well, he's wrong. I don't like absolute statements very much, but in this case, he's 100% wrong. Rather than looking for the 1 lost sheep, he seems to be clapping his hands and stomping his feet hoping it will run further away. I don't know what justification there is for that type of behavior other than complete misunderstanding.



The problem with this scenario though is that the church is not a country club and I'm not wired mentally or spiritually that I can see it as such. I get what you're saying, but that's not the reality of things as I see and perceive them to be.

You have more experience now, both spiritually and mentally, than when you were much younger. You have seen others in the church with bad ideas and damaging points of view that might have pushed individuals away when they needed to be embraced. You then claim to trust implicitly that the spirit will always guide someone who believes as you do in a position of leadership, counseling, and authority for you and your family. That the spirit by itself is a great vetting process for Bishops and leaders, moreso than real world training, that the very voice of God will speak through these men on your behalf and for the spiritual welfare of your children when they meet with him alone and then discuss things of a sexual nature. It's beautiful to think that there is one great correlation controlled and carried out by the spirit with righteousness as it's only prerequisite, but men are fallible.

If your best friend wanted to ask those questions of your teenage daughter would you let him? The spirit, calling, and authority are the only things that rest as indicators for you. But even if they exist they are nothing but a still small voice and a subtle influence. It is still just a grown man asking your daughter probing question with honorable intentions to cause her to feel shame and sorrow if she is not virginal and pure.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

You have more experience now, both spiritually and mentally, than when you were much younger. You have seen others in the church with bad ideas and damaging points of view that might have pushed individuals away when they needed to be embraced. You then claim to trust implicitly that the spirit will always guide someone who believes as you do in a position of leadership, counseling, and authority for you and your family. That the spirit by itself is a great vetting process for Bishops and leaders, moreso than real world training, that the very voice of God will speak through these men on your behalf and for the spiritual welfare of your children when they meet with him alone and then discuss things of a sexual nature. It's beautiful to think that there is one great correlation controlled and carried out by the spirit with righteousness as it's only prerequisite, but men are fallible.

If your best friend wanted to ask those questions of your teenage daughter would you let him? The spirit, calling, and authority are the only things that rest as indicators for you. But even if they exist are nothing but a still small voice and a subtle influence. It is still just a grown man asking your daughter probing question with honorable intentions to cause her to feel shame and sorrow if she is not virginal and pure.

Why would my best friend be asking those things? I wouldn't let him, no. Now, if my bishop was my best friend, then yes. Authority matters very much to me, and it's not a minor differentiation.

Are there imperfect men/women in leadership. Of course. There's nobody who can be considered perfect, save Christ. That means that mistakes will be made. I've seen leaders make awful mistakes. I've seen leaders make decisions that terrible choices willfully. It doesn't change the fact that I still believe that they were supposed to be a leader in that position. It was their failing. What it means for me is that I have to accept their imperfection and trust that the next leader will be stronger. I'll support them faithfully and help as best I can.

As far as the shaming and sorrow goes, it shouldn't be the intent of anybody to shame someone. A lot of people feel shamed, even if nobody is trying to shame them. I've seen that plenty within my circles of friends and wards. If anybody is actively shaming another person, they're wrong to do so.

Sorrow is good. You should feel sorrowful when you do the wrong thing. You should feel bad about doing the wrong thing at work, at school, and in private for both religious and temporal matters. Sorrow motivates us to be better people and to do better when confronted with challenges. Without sorrow, we care less and less about consequence.

 

[JeTmAn81]

My wife and I very nearly could have fallen victim to this exact thing. I stopped going to church about 5 years ago and for about the four last years we really struggled, we separated twice, almost got to the point of divorce as we separated for 9 months at one point and even started seeing other people. We put the religion aside. She realized that her family telling her she shouldn't be with me if I wasn't going to church was spiteful and not actually heartfelt advice. We went to a marriage councellor for about 4 months and have been working very hard on getting to know each other as real people.

Its tough though and with the amount of outside pressure that the church seems to constantly exert or cause I can see why there are so many issues. I wonder how many older active members are actually happy, I know if I had remained for the sake of my wife I wouldn't have ever experienced true happiness, it would have always eaten away at my mind.

Do the people in the Mormon church who think that you should divorce your spouse if they leave the church ever get asked about that idea conflicting with the Bible?

"1 Corinthians 7:12-13

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Do the people in the Mormon church who think that you should divorce your spouse if they leave the church ever get asked about that idea conflicting with the Bible?

"1 Corinthians 7:12-13

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

I've never seen anybody encourage a divorce. I'm sure it happens, but I don't think that's a problem that's specific to any church. Heck, we just had a thread here recently about whether or not people would date someone with differing political opinions. Many people said no, which makes me think that they'd also advise their kids to not marry someone from the "wrong" political party.

Parents often make mistakes when trying to provide counsel to their kids, especially when those kids are adults.

 

[ronito]

Sorrow is good. You should feel sorrowful when you do the wrong thing. You should feel bad about doing the wrong thing at work, at school, and in private for both religious and temporal matters. Sorrow motivates us to be better people and to do better when confronted with challenges. Without sorrow, we care less and less about consequence.

See? Here's another interpretation. I never believed in sorrow this way.
I'm not good at my job because I have sorrow when I screw up. I'm good at my job because it's important to me to be good at it. Same with when I played guitar. I didn't want to be good at it because I was sorrowful that I was bad. I wanted to be good at it because it was important to me.

To me this idea as "sorrow as motivator" is actually toxic. Because it tells you that the only way you can get better is if you feel like crap. When really you can be better with just being better. There is being sorry and accepting responsibility but that's different than sorrow. Also sorrow is hard to control. Sorrow often gives way to despair.

Of course, I'm not longer active mormon so my interpretation is obviously suspect.
Still I find it interesting.

 

[CorvoSol]

Yeah I get it there are good people in the church that "get it" but not everyone has someone like your president there to slap them down in fact many just have more people that are equally indignant.

As to your drama dude, I didn't even know Rexburg had booting. And on the women front, seriously just stop trying. I always found that when I wasn't trying I got the most attention from women.

Oh believe me, I know there are jerks. I said that just a bit further down in my post, haha. My mother always said to me, "The Church is true, in spite of the best efforts of its members to prove otherwise." Hahaha. And yeah, I'm not overly concerned about dating atm, but I have days where it spikes back into concerns.

And yeah, we have two towing companies in town. Barney towing, and All American Towing. Barney Towing I'm partial to for reasons I'd rather not specify, and All American Towing is a business I now view as the lowest of all businesses in the city. Lower than whatever seedy and shady stuff we have here, like under the table coca cola deals or something.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

See? Here's another interpretation. I never believed in sorrow this way.
I'm not good at my job because I have sorrow when I screw up. I'm good at my job because it's important to me to be good at it. Same with when I played guitar. I didn't want to be good at it because I was sorrowful that I was bad. I wanted to be good at it because it was important to me.

To me this idea as "sorrow as motivator" is actually toxic. Because it tells you that the only way you can get better is if you feel like crap. When really you can be better with just being better. There is being sorry and accepting responsibility but that's different than sorrow. Also sorrow is hard to control. Sorrow often gives way to despair.

Of course, I'm not longer active mormon so my interpretation is obviously suspect.
Still I find it interesting.

Sorrow does not equal sadness or feeling like crap though. Sorrow is a recognition of transgression and a sincere desire to correct it.

 

[Yoritomo]

As far as the shaming and sorrow goes, it shouldn't be the intent of anybody to shame someone. A lot of people feel shamed, even if nobody is trying to shame them. I've seen that plenty within my circles of friends and wards. If anybody is actively shaming another person, they're wrong to do so.

Sorrow is good. You should feel sorrowful when you do the wrong thing. You should feel bad about doing the wrong thing at work, at school, and in private for both religious and temporal matters. Sorrow motivates us to be better people and to do better when confronted with challenges. Without sorrow, we care less and less about consequence.

Then it's important not to conflate the two. With object lessons about chewed bubble gum, parents feeling that would rather a child be dead than have pre-marital sex, lack of open discussion about sex itself, classification of pre-marital sex as being a sin next to murder, open rejection of male members serving missions even if they've repented and made clean as if the sin never happened if they had sex prior to serving a mission. There are plenty of avenues of shame when it comes to sexual sin. I know you're not the type of mormon that this matters to but this isn't coming from a place of personal pain. I'm "white as the driven snow" as my friends in college and high school told me. I was the epitome of the virtuous white knight, controlled in every action. Even as a non-believer I still abide by every "test" of mormonism except tithing and belief. I have been a seminary teacher, served in the elder's quorum presidency, and recently offered both stake and bishopric positions but turned the latter two down without giving that the reason was due to a lack of fundamental belief.

That's the rub. As I was trying to explain to Hito earlier in the thread. The spirit is everything. There is no evidence that could come out or infographic so well created that could convince someone who had received a witness of the spirit, that the church was not true. In many ways I think mormonism is a true religion. Not that it is the truth, but that as a religion is meets the only real criteria of pure belief. The difference between you and I is only that I do not believe that my spiritual witness originated from god or any other supernatural being, nor can I rely on it as an arbiter of truth. It is as powerful as my own perceptions but just as fallible. It incites men to live as angels and inspires fundamentalists to such fervent belief in the obviously false that they would sooner die than doubt.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

It incites men to live as angels and inspires fundamentalists to such fervent belief in the obviously false that they would sooner die than doubt.

I don't know that you're talking about a problem with Mormonism, but rather a problem with mankind. Man loves to adhere to some sort of cause or rallying point. It just happens that when it's of spiritual matter, people lose their minds and forget that we're also physical and imperfect beings. But this isn't something that's unique within the LDS church. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the stoning of infidels, the Jihadist Movement, and even up to the crucifixion of Christ are all examples of zealous people rallying around religion.

As much as religion is a blessing to the world, it's equally a curse. I've said many times that Christians have a bad name in today's world and it's their our own fault. We want to point outward, but we need to be looking inward. But even with that observation, I still think that the majority of religious people are doing their best and that zealots are a minority. It just happens that zealots garner a whole lot more attention and they do a whole lot more bad than good.

 

[Laurentius]

Sorrow does not equal sadness or feeling like crap though. Sorrow is a recognition of transgression and a sincere desire to correct it.

I dunno, that's never how I interpreted sorrow. Sorrow for me isn't just a logical recognition of something and a desire to correct it, but also contains a measure of regret.

 

[Yoritomo]

I don't know that you're talking about a problem with Mormonism, but rather a problem with mankind. Man loves to adhere to some sort of cause or rallying point. It just happens that when it's of spiritual matter, people lose their minds and forget that we're also physical and imperfect beings. But this isn't something that's unique within the LDS church. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the stoning of infidels, the Jihadist Movement, and even up to the crucifixion of Christ are all examples of zealous people rallying around religion.

As much as religion is a blessing to the world, it's equally a curse. I've said many times that Christians have a bad name in today's world and it's their our own fault. We want to point outward, but we need to be looking inward. But even with that observation, I still think that the majority of religious people are doing their best and that zealots are a minority. It just happens that zealots garner a whole lot more attention and they do a whole lot more bad than good.

It's not a problem with Mormonism. It's the fundamental strength of Mormonism. Moroni's promise encapsulates that strength. It is empowering to believe that you can receive revelation direct from God. I have taken moroni's promise. I believed that I received an answer. I would not have served a mission otherwise. The issue here is that the burning in the bosom that I felt and the accompanying vision after praying for 6 hours straight are not unique to the church. I felt that same burning and wealth of hope and love when talking to my sister about how wrong the church was and how wrong my parents were to doubt her happiness and push her away. Engage the world with love and you quickly find that that feeling is not just an arbiter of truth testifying but something that strengthens our deepest emotions. It is a quickening that many people feel... and sometimes they feel it even if they're completely mistaken. Because based on our own perception, the truth is always relative. People could still come to the "truth" in he face of overwhelming falsehood.

There is greater strength in that. Taken to it's most raw level the pattern of revelation in the church is pretty sound. Study it out, come to a decision, ask for confirmation. The issue is that the feeling does not originate from God. It comes from within us. Our own knowledge and perceptions bring it forth. The spirit, as it were, can not fill in a true gap of knowledge or a true misunderstanding. Were it the case that it could overcome a misunderstanding or gap in knowledge then the church wouldn't have to white wash the history of the church to only the uplifting parts.

 

[ronito]

I've never seen anybody encourage a divorce. I'm sure it happens, but I don't think that's a problem that's specific to any church.

Dude, I've seen it. Remember that thread where the woman found her husband was surfing pron? There were plenty of people that advised her to divorce him. And he didn't even have a real problem.

I think here's what you're missing:

From nursery you're taught that you need to go to the temple to get married and this continues all the way until Relief Society and Elder's Quorum which are then replaced with lessons about how important it is to keep your temple covenants. I know, I've taught the lessons at each of the levels.

Not to mention the countless talks we listen to and articles we read, or the hymns we sing about it. It is of paramount importance. A woman cannot get into the highest level of heaven on her own, nor can her husband.

So when a spouse leaves the church suddenly that's all gone. Even your exaltation can be viewed as gone. So is it surprising when some people dig in on their beliefs so much that they get divorced? Or that their families look at them in pity because they have a broken spouse? We talk about how we reap what we sow, and yet are surprised when things like this happen.

Yeah in other churches it happens. But I'd say not as much as it does in the mormon church. Almost every couple I know that's non-mormon comes from mixed faiths or differing levels of religiousness. I can't say the same for my mormon friends. Also other faiths (with the exception of the Jews and arguably Catholics, if they cared) don't put so much emphasis on uniformity of belief and religious activity.

I know there's also a lesson on accepting others, but it gets nowhere the same amount of time and attention. It's the two wolf problem, which wolf did you feed? It can't be of great surprise that some people fed the wolf that would lead them to divorce more. You gave them the wolf after all.

 

[Brianemone]

Lower than whatever seedy and shady stuff we have here, like under the table coca cola deals or something.

Got a laugh from me

Do the people in the Mormon church who think that you should divorce your spouse if they leave the church ever get asked about that idea conflicting with the Bible?

"1 Corinthians 7:12-13

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

Trust me that scripture was mentioned in my defense.

There is greater strength in that. Taken to it's most raw level the pattern of revelation in the church is pretty sound. Study it out, come to a decision, ask for confirmation. The issue is that the feeling does not originate from God. It comes from within us. Our own knowledge and perceptions bring it forth. The spirit, as it were, can not fill in a true gap of knowledge or a true misunderstanding. Were it the case that it could overcome a misunderstanding or gap in knowledge then the church wouldn't have to white wash the history of the church to only the uplifting parts.

Very well put. This is completely inline with the resolution that I arrived at when debating my continued commitment.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Dude, I've seen it. Remember that thread where the woman found her husband was surfing pron? There were plenty of people that advised her to divorce him. And he didn't even have a real problem.

I think here's what you're missing:

From nursery you're taught that you need to go to the temple to get married and this continues all the way until Relief Society and Elder's Quorum which are then replaced with lessons about how important it is to keep your temple covenants. I know, I've taught the lessons at each of the levels.

Not to mention the countless talks we listen to and articles we read, or the hymns we sing about it. It is of paramount importance. A woman cannot get into the highest level of heaven on her own, nor can her husband.

So when a spouse leaves the church suddenly that's all gone. Even your exaltation can be viewed as gone. So is it surprising when some people dig in on their beliefs so much that they get divorced? Or that their families look at them in pity because they have a broken spouse? We talk about how we reap what we sow, and yet are surprised when things like this happen.

Yeah in other churches it happens. But I'd say not as much as it does in the mormon church. Almost every couple I know that's non-mormon comes from mixed faiths or differing levels of religiousness. I can't say the same for my mormon friends. Also other faiths (with the exception of the Jews and arguably Catholics, if they cared) don't put so much emphasis on uniformity of belief and religious activity.

I know there's also a lesson on accepting others, but it gets nowhere the same amount of time and attention. It's the two wolf problem, which wolf did you feed? It can't be of great surprise that some people fed the wolf that would lead them to divorce more. You gave them the wolf after all.

But it is the goal of every Latter-Day Saint to get sealed in the temple. That's what this earthly experience is mostly about. And no, you don't have any harder of a time reaching exaltation if your spouse decides to bail on the church. Who is teaching this? It's not doctrine. If you are faithful, you'll be judged accordingly. You won't be judged based on what your spouse did.

When my mom and dad got married, she was LDS, he was Catholic. Her family never said a word of it, but my dad's side of the family didn't speak to him until I was about 6 years old, which was about 11 years after my parents were married. They weren't happy when he was married to a Mormon girl, and they were furious when he was baptized. They got over it, and we're all extremely close. None of them are church members, but they'll stand up for Mormons with a passion these days.

The problem is that people let their shock or shame drive a wedge and then never work on removing that wedge. With my dad, he just hoped that his family would come around, but he never gave up on them. Too often people write off others who disapprove of them. Now, maybe some people will never come around, but that's on that person, not the church. In those cases, you're getting to know that person like you never did, and it can be disappointing and sad.

It's shocking when someone goes out of step with the rest of the family or society. I know, because I saw families disown their children, siblings, or parents for being baptized into the church down in Chile. One of my companions, who was Chilean and a member of only a year before leaving to serve, got a letter from his family (only one he got his whole mission) the week before he got home letting him know that they threw all his stuff out and that he shouldn't return home when he got released.

Not a single person in my wife's family is still active, and only her father and one of her sisters has fond feelings for the church. We don't condemn them and we don't get offended when they vent. Just yesterday my brother-in-law was posting BS info about "the Mormons" on Facebook. I guess some people in the church don't listen to the stories told in conference that tie back to the prodigal son. The church talks about loving and supporting wayward family and friends all the time. Don't tell me you haven't heard those talks numerous times.

I get that you guys are frustrated with the church, but that frustration is really coloring your judgment.

 

[Yoritomo]

I get that you guys are frustrated with the church, but that frustration is really coloring your judgment.

Your relationship with the church and your belief is coloring yours, as I have already pointed out. You cannot even fathom a world where the church is not true. If the basic practices of the church appear unseemly or inappropriate when you look at it objectively as just an organization how can you expect it to actually be an enlightened manifestation of god's will on the earth? The issues you have never experienced came about due to talks, historical beliefs that are no longer practiced or encouraged, and inference from the membership due to ambiguity in the doctrine. Spencer W Kimball said masturbation can turn you gay. Is that truth? Is that the word of an enlightened man filled with the spirit of god? Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, and that was later rescinded and explained away as just being different. To correlate the prohibition of priesthood to the blacks you have to actually believe the rhetoric that blacks were fence sitters in the war in heaven and actually cursed... as the church taught, for at least 100 years. Do you believe blacks were fence sitters? If not, did the only true and living church upon the face of the earth make a mistake with active prophets, seers, and revelators at its head?

God answered my prayers. I knew the church to be true as strong as anyone who has felt the spirit testify in his heart and speak to him. The problem is that the feeling you get is not God, it's just you.

When a member resorts to bearing their testimony in the face of well reasoned argument it's generally to wash away the anxiety that might be cropping up due to the discussion itself. It's why members can get defensive. Anxiety is the opposite of what the spirit feels like. Bearing testimony in the face of opposition does little to convince others, but everything to reaffirm the spirit in your life. Think about the pattern then. When you feel anxiety you immerse yourself in church approved literature, scripture, testimony, and seek internal reinforcement. It's why it's so strong. You've trained yourself to cling to faith in face of doubt. I'm just saying that it's okay to doubt, it's okay to question, it's okay to approach it rationally and objectively the truth can be reached by examining everything. If it is gods true church then it will stand up to any scrutiny, the only thing that could prevent it is lies.

 

[ronito]

But it is the goal of every Latter-Day Saint to get sealed in the temple. That's what this earthly experience is mostly about. And no, you don't have any harder of a time reaching exaltation if your spouse decides to bail on the church. Who is teaching this? It's not doctrine. If you are faithful, you'll be judged accordingly. You won't be judged based on what your spouse did.

When my mom and dad got married, she was LDS, he was Catholic. Her family never said a word of it, but my dad's side of the family didn't speak to him until I was about 6 years old, which was about 11 years after my parents were married. They weren't happy when he was married to a Mormon girl, and they were furious when he was baptized. They got over it, and we're all extremely close. None of them are church members, but they'll stand up for Mormons with a passion these days.

The problem is that people let their shock or shame drive a wedge and then never work on removing that wedge. With my dad, he just hoped that his family would come around, but he never gave up on them. Too often people write off others who disapprove of them. Now, maybe some people will never come around, but that's on that person, not the church. In those cases, you're getting to know that person like you never did, and it can be disappointing and sad.

It's shocking when someone goes out of step with the rest of the family or society. I know, because I saw families disown their children, siblings, or parents for being baptized into the church down in Chile. One of my companions, who was Chilean and a member of only a year before leaving to serve, got a letter from his family (only one he got his whole mission) the week before he got home letting him know that they threw all his stuff out and that he shouldn't return home when he got released.

Not a single person in my wife's family is still active, and only her father and one of her sisters has fond feelings for the church. We don't condemn them and we don't get offended when they vent. Just yesterday my brother-in-law was posting BS info about "the Mormons" on Facebook. I guess some people in the church don't listen to the stories told in conference that tie back to the prodigal son. The church talks about loving and supporting wayward family and friends all the time. Don't tell me you haven't heard those talks numerous times.

I get that you guys are frustrated with the church, but that frustration is really coloring your judgment.

I should restate. It makes the idea of an eternal family almost impossible. Because if a spouse isn't there what kind of family is it? Further many spouses take this a step further and fear that the spouse will lead the children astray and those children wont be exalted.

I get that it colors my judgement. I understand that, just like you probably let the Catholic church color yours. I don't want to seem like one of those frothing at the mouth anit-mormons. But fact is, this has had very real and personal implications for not just me, but my wife and implications that still affect my parents, siblings, nieces and nephews every day. And the sad part of it is that it should be better than this. That's the main frustration. Once you're outside you can take a look and see "There can be so much good but so much time is spent on the bad." Seeing a nephew who will undoubtedly have a complex after what he's dealing with and other members doing the same it's just so frustrating.

Also, on a funny note. There was a mormon guy on another site that was really pissed off because the "liberal media" was saying that Mormons believed that Jesus would be going to Missouri. I was like, "Yeah but Mormons believe that. What's your point?"

It always strikes me as funny when people get all up in arms because someone points out their belief. Honestly, who is educating these kids? It makes me sad when I know more than people that are in it. Come on. Own your religion!

 

[ronito]

Gents,
We all have colored judgement. It's part of being human.
That doesn't necessarily make that any less our judgements or any less valid.

I'm willing to admit, as someone who has been outcast from friends and family and see this ongoing every day with my still mormon friends and family, that my judgement is totally colored by those interactions.

I'm willing to bet that Mr. DSA is willing to admit the fact he believes colors his judgement in a way that someone who is on the outside would totally not agree with.

I don't want this to turn into a bashing session. Vent? That's cool. Explain your stance? Cool too. But I don't want this to turn into a "you're wrong and I'm right." thing.

There's enough of that already that we don't need to bring it here. Let's discuss our issues, our experiences and try to get to an understanding. We don't need to seek agreement, some will and some wont. But we can at least understand each other.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Oh, I'm not upset in the slightest by what you're saying, just giving my side. I'm the type that likes to hear where people are coming from, regardless of how near or far to me they stand on issues. And of course my standing within the church colors my judgment. If it didn't, I wouldn't be living the doctrine in the first place.

All I really want to say about it is that I believe in what I stand for. I don't stand for anything out of justification, out of fear, or out of convenience. That's how I am. That's how I see myself. I have many, many experiences that have put me in this spot, but I'm not a guy walking around with blinders on either.

I'm very sympathetic to what you two have gone and are still going through. I don't want you guys to think that I don't care, because I do. I just need to speak my mind, and I come from a different place than you guys do.

 

[ronito]

Oh, I'm not upset in the slightest by what you're saying, just giving my side. I'm the type that likes to hear where people are coming from, regardless of how near or far to me they stand on issues. And of course my standing within the church colors my judgment. If it didn't, I wouldn't be living the doctrine in the first place.

All I really want to say about it is that I believe in what I stand for. I don't stand for anything out of justification, out of fear, or out of convenience. That's how I am. That's how I see myself. I have many, many experiences that have put me in this spot, but I'm not a guy walking around with blinders on either.

I'm very sympathetic to what you two have gone and are still going through. I don't want you guys to think that I don't care, because I do. I just need to speak my mind, and I come from a different place than you guys do.

I get that. I just don't want this turn into a dogpile. I think people are pretty good about that here. But I don't want some outsider to run in and start a mess.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I get that. I just don't want this turn into a dogpile. I think people are pretty good about that here. But I don't want some outsider to run in and start a mess.

I can take it. I might bristle just a tad, but I know that many within the church have acted in a manner that would warrant that type of response. My only point that I stick to is that it's the people who are at fault, not the church.

Also, "evolving" doctrine or changing policies has been a mainstay in the church, both in modern and ancient times. Compare how the Nephites were living at the beginning of the Book of Mormon to the end, and a lot changed. Compare the Jews from Genesis to Malachi, and lots of new revelations were given. From Matthew to Revelation lots of new things were introduced. Line upon line applies to the church as well as to individuals, but the core doctrine remains intact and unchanged.

 

[Yoritomo]

I'm totally open to the fact that I could be missing something. The only way for me to find it though is to keep questioning, thinking, and trying to live the best way I know how. There's so much I'm grateful for from the church. The focus on family and love is wonderful. There's a strain of absolutely beauty and purity in the fundamental doctrines of love, truthseeking, and self-improvement that I adore. That assurance I had was magical, but I was in because what I was promised was worth any sacrifice, and I still carry that idea with me but I just focus it on my family. They are worth any sacrifice.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I won't tell you you're wrong, man. A testimony is personal, and I wouldn't want someone to beat me over my head with theirs. I hope you find the answers you want, be it in the church or without. Peace in your standing is a beautiful thing.

 

[Yoritomo]

I won't tell you you're wrong, man. A testimony is personal, and I wouldn't want someone to beat me over my head with theirs. I hope you find the answers you want, be it in the church or without. Peace in your standing is a beautiful thing.

This is the first time I've put my thoughts down on paper. It's less about you and more about organizing my journey. Unfortunately I don't have the ability to talk with anyone else about it, thanks for listening and I'm sorry if I was too dismissive or aggressive. I'd love for nothing more than to retain all my friends that are members and we all understand one another. I have made the mistake of assuming I understand you but no one's journey is the same. I'm sorry for that. I'll make up for it with a faith promoting story sometime in the next couple of days.

 

[CorvoSol]

Got a laugh from me

It's a town where throwing snowballs is against the law. The major factor in getting elected Sheriff is your policy on student treatment. I can't even begin to fathom anything more nefarious than under the table coca-cola deals and discussions on how to have your skirt shorter than standard without getting caught.

I don't know, it's REXBURG. I love the school and I love being able to freely mingle my religious beliefs with discussion of scholastic subjects and I'm always pleasantly surprised at how well my professors do at making sure that that doesn't pollute our education and that we don't end up any more close-minded than we choose to be. But the town is not one I would ever raise my children in.

I love LDS culture, and I absolutely adore seeing LDS artwork, statues, architecture, and all our weird, stupid ways. The Church would be so different without our bickering over the finer points of the Word of Wisdom and the dangerous crones of the Relief Society constantly threatening to undermine the efforts of the Missionaries. The failings are a part of who and what we are, and the process of purifying ourselves of that is the point of Church in general. People bragging about never missing out on the Sacrament, using their position in the Church to exalt themselves above others, or in general mistreating one another are all things we all want to do away with, but their pitfalls I'm glad we have, because the pursuit of holiness is the entire point of this religion. And our weaknesses are as much a part of us as our strengths.


--You know, I had something more I was going to say, but it was getting wordy, so I'll rewrite it as such: This is the best thread I've seen on GAF for discussing religion with any aspect of civility and maturity (the preponderance of GAF threads on religion being markedly worse than any other topic on it in my short experience), but I think we dwell a bit too much on the shortcomings of the Church. Just a thought, really.

 

[ronito]

It's a town where throwing snowballs is against the law. The major factor in getting elected Sheriff is your policy on student treatment. I can't even begin to fathom anything more nefarious than under the table coca-cola deals and discussions on how to have your skirt shorter than standard without getting caught.

I don't know, it's REXBURG. I love the school and I love being able to freely mingle my religious beliefs with discussion of scholastic subjects and I'm always pleasantly surprised at how well my professors do at making sure that that doesn't pollute our education and that we don't end up any more close-minded than we choose to be. But the town is not one I would ever raise my children in.

Dude you should write a book about your adventures in Rexburg. You should call it something like "Short skirts, Snowballs and Coca-Cola deals"

I love LDS culture, and I absolutely adore seeing LDS artwork, statues, architecture, and all our weird, stupid ways. The Church would be so different without our bickering over the finer points of the Word of Wisdom and the dangerous crones of the Relief Society constantly threatening to undermine the efforts of the Missionaries. The failings are a part of who and what we are, and the process of purifying ourselves of that is the point of Church in general. People bragging about never missing out on the Sacrament, using their position in the Church to exalt themselves above others, or in general mistreating one another are all things we all want to do away with, but their pitfalls I'm glad we have, because the pursuit of holiness is the entire point of this religion. And our weaknesses are as much a part of us as our strengths.

I remember talking to a friend about mormonism the different kinds of mormons there are. I remember thinking I should've written what I said down but it was something like, there are certain categories:

- Those who actually believe (this is the smallest group)
- Those who want to believe (this is the largest group)
- Those who hero worship
- DNA Mormons
- Those who are in love with the church and what it entails

I've found a few of that last group, but not many it does seem you might be in it.

--You know, I had something more I was going to say, but it was getting wordy, so I'll rewrite it as such: This is the best thread I've seen on GAF for discussing religion with any aspect of civility and maturity (the preponderance of GAF threads on religion being markedly worse than any other topic on it in my short experience), but I think we dwell a bit too much on the shortcomings of the Church. Just a thought, really.

To be fair, look at who make the most posts here. I do know that active mormons read the thread, and that questioning mormons read the thread (due to PMs) but sadly when it comes to active mormons that actually post regularly? It's just you, Fathead and sometimes Mr. DSA.

And to further be fair, I do post stuff about when the church is in the news both good and bad. Yeah I give my slant but we've discussed that already.

Fact is there's just not enough active mormon activity here to keep a very positive thread. But it's also the exmo thread. People that are leaving or have left and have no one to discuss these things with should have a place here as well and when you have people that have to feign belief like Yorimoto or people who are shunned, like me, there's not many places you can discuss that.

I have tried to keep things civil, and I think as a whole we've really excelled at that. But I think this falls into that same mormon trap that keeps getting sprung on the internet. Active mormons see the thread, see that there's exmormons and non-mormons in it and decide to keep quiet instead of posting.

So yeah cholo, things will skew to the negative for now because many of us have to deal with that negativity as part of our lives. Having more positive stories though will turn that around. It's just as much your thread as it is the rest of ours.

 

[Yoritomo]

While on my mission we were teaching a new investigator that my companion and another elder had found while on splits. Guadalupe Sanchez. I was in the Spanish California Anaheim mission. She was golden. When teaching her the 4th discussion (back then they had specific ordered discussions). The 4th discussion dealt with the temple if I remember correctly.

When I showed her the Salt Lake Temple she described a dream she had had after praying to know if the book of mormon was true. She said she was led through that building by a man with a cane and a slight limp. He told her about the atonement of Jesus Christ as he led her through two rooms. She was then invited into a third room by a man but she could only see his hand. When she entered the room she was shocked awake by the brightness of that last room.She awoke crying and knowing the next time she talked with us that she would like to be baptized as soon as possible. Actually if I remember correctly she said floors or levels not rooms. At this point she was sobbing. She was baptized in 2 weeks and got her endowments exactly 1 year later.

 

[ronito]

While on my mission we were teaching a new investigator that my companion and another elder had found while on splits. Guadalupe Sanchez. I was in the Spanish California Anaheim mission. She was golden. When teaching her the 4th discussion (back then they had specific ordered discussions). The 4th discussion dealt with the temple if I remember correctly.

When I showed her the Salt Lake Temple she described a dream she had had after praying to know if the book of mormon was true. She said she was led through that building by a man with a cane and a slight limp. He told her about the atonement of Jesus Christ as he led her through two rooms. She was then invited into a third room by a man but she could only see his hand. When she entered the room she was shocked awake by the brightness of that last room.She awoke crying and knowing the next time she talked with us that she would like to be baptized as soon as possible. Actually if I remember correctly she said floors or levels not rooms. At this point she was sobbing. She was baptized in 2 weeks and got her endowments exactly 1 year later.

For some reason I read the second paragraph first and my first thought was "I bet she's latina." Sure enough.

Having grown up in the latino mormon culture it's interesting how much the supernatural plays into things. Especially with the Venezuelan group as we're so close the Caribbean there's a lot of voodoo influences in everything. It makes for a really weird amalgam.

 

[Yoritomo]

2 of my white companions caught Latina fever and were always flirty and checking up on the cuter latin laurels or young single adults. They're both married to latinas now.

It went both ways. Had transfers been a week later I would have gotten an emergency transfer from an area where I was zone leader because there was a young single adult latina who was actively stalking me. She was pretty damned hot too... but completely insane. The Sister missionaries tried to befriend her and talk to her. Apparently she would spend all the time she was with the sister missionaries talking about me. Then apparently due to oversaturation from being around the stalker one of the sister missionaries started calling me to talk every night, and kept finding excuses for me to meet with her.

Missions are weird.

 

[CorvoSol]

Dude you should write a book about your adventures in Rexburg. You should call it something like "Short skirts, Snowballs and Coca-Cola deals"

Hahaha, I don't do enough interesting things to make a book out of it. I had considered once doing a story about my mission with one of my companions, because that stuff was right out of an anime.

I remember talking to a friend about mormonism the different kinds of mormons there are. I remember thinking I should've written what I said down but it was something like, there are certain categories:

- Those who actually believe (this is the smallest group)
- Those who want to believe (this is the largest group)
- Those who hero worship
- DNA Mormons
- Those who are in love with the church and what it entails

I've found a few of that last group, but not many it does seem you might be in it.

See, I would put myself into each of those categories depending on the scenario. I actually believe in the Plan of Salvation, that we were before, that Christ came to atone for our sins, and that mankind can become Gods. I actually believe the Book of Mormon, but I'd put myself as one of the people who thinks the Nephite empire was relatively small. I WANT to believe all kinds of things, so I stick to what Alma said that, if you so much as desire to believe, let that desire operate within you. I want to believe everything, but if I did, my faith would be perfect and that'd be that. I definitely hero worship guys from my mission, my mission president, scriptural figures, my dad, and one or two Apostles (Uchtdorf, principally at Christmastime, and Elder Holland, especially near Easter). My dad's side is DNA Mormons all the way, where my mother is a convert, which thing helped shape me greatly, I think, and I am in love with the Church and its ideals, even when confronting its ills.

Like, I honestly believe in the Church and in the people IN the Church. Sometimes I feel betrayed or let down because things aren't what I wanted or hoped for, but I understand that the Saints are historically a slow people. I think I believe in them so much because that belief is reciprocated. For all the talk of guilt cycles, the Church is the one place where I've felt truly important, and part of something important. And I understand that not everyone is wired the way I am, but being a part of something important is a huge motivator for me. And, if I might be so open, growing up a middle-class white kid whose best guess is his ancestors were from everywhere in Europe that wasn't Latin, the Church was the only sense of a "culture" I had growing up.

To be fair, look at who make the most posts here. I do know that active mormons read the thread, and that questioning mormons read the thread (due to PMs) but sadly when it comes to active mormons that actually post regularly? It's just you, Fathead and sometimes Mr. DSA.

And to further be fair, I do post stuff about when the church is in the news both good and bad. Yeah I give my slant but we've discussed that already.

Fact is there's just not enough active mormon activity here to keep a very positive thread. But it's also the exmo thread. People that are leaving or have left and have no one to discuss these things with should have a place here as well and when you have people that have to feign belief like Yorimoto or people who are shunned, like me, there's not many places you can discuss that.

I have tried to keep things civil, and I think as a whole we've really excelled at that. But I think this falls into that same mormon trap that keeps getting sprung on the internet. Active mormons see the thread, see that there's exmormons and non-mormons in it and decide to keep quiet instead of posting.

So yeah cholo, things will skew to the negative for now because many of us have to deal with that negativity as part of our lives. Having more positive stories though will turn that around. It's just as much your thread as it is the rest of ours.

And I think that these are all very GOOD and FAIR points. I think this topic DOES aim for fairness, and I applaud it for the civility which we have had here. It's rare on the internet to be able to discuss a religion so freely and so civilly, especially if that religion is Mormonism. I was only observing that I thought we skewed too far in one direction, but the absence of actives in the thread is certainly a contributing factor.

I'm not looking to find fault here. I think this is a great thread and I think you're all great people, I was just observing, that's all. I will admit that the weird thing about active Mormons is its so darn hard for us to say anything about our religion. I could come up with reasons, I guess, but I dunno, it's a shame we're so careful on that front.

Like, my friends came to visit, and I took them up to see the Temple (there isn't much else TO see in Rexburg), and I was kinda tongue tied once we went in, because I've never really made any overt effort at showing them anything about the Church before. I've always just let them ask the questions and I've done my best to answer. I think it was a good experience for all three of us, though. For me at least, their willingness to go up to and into it meant a lot to me.

I might be having to make some trips down to Mecca, er, I mean Salt Lake again here in the near future, because I have a job interview coming up and the nearest places for the interview are in Pocatello and Salt Lake, and they're not sure if there's anyone in Pocatello on the scheduled date, so I have to hurry on down there. I'm really excited, because I'll finally have the translator position I've been slaving away at getting for nearly two years now.

 

[Brianemone]

2 of my white companions caught Latina fever and were always flirty and checking up on the cuter latin laurels or young single adults. They're both married to latinas now.

It went both ways. Had transfers been a week later I would have gotten an emergency transfer from an area where I was zone leader because there was a young single adult latina who was actively stalking me. She was pretty damned hot too... but completely insane. The Sister missionaries tried to befriend her and talk to her. Apparently she would spend all the time she was with the sister missionaries talking about me. Then apparently due to oversaturation from being around the stalker one of the sister missionaries started calling me to talk every night, and kept finding excuses for me to meet with her.

Missions are weird.

Heh, damned straight.

I was in Sicily and there was a 40yr old Filipina
convert that said she had a dream about being in the temple and warring special clothes with a man that she didn't know kneeling at an altar, but when I got transferred to the area she recognized me as the person in her dream. She decided we were supposed to be married and found out the postal address for the missionary apartments in the following two cities that I served in, she also somehow managed to track down my phone # back in nz so that when I arrived back she started calling me. Lasted for about a year until she gave up.

 

[AlteredBeast]

I would post more, but the topics don't interest me very much.

 

[balddemon]

did anyone else's parents give them tons of crap for not voting for romney?

 

[Yoritomo]

did anyone else's parents give them tons of crap for not voting for romney?

My parents know my politics so they don't even ask.

Then again I can generally speak with them openly about almost anything.