I have no idea what his political leanings are. As the conversation may have indicated, we rarely talk about this stuff in our family.
Blue max is my older brother and Pigspeakers is our younger brother. I'm the loud mouth of the three. Blue Max, by virtue of being the big bro, will always be the coolest, and Pigspeakers is, well, the funniest.
I think a lot of mormons, but obviously not most, are secret bleeding heart liberals, since the GOP is so callous to provide for the poor sick and elderly.
I've actually heard from multiple coworkers that they believe this election was just like the battle in the pre-mortal life; Lucifer wanted to force everyone to be good while Jesus wanted people to choose to do good. Therefore, Obama's plan to take your money forcefully and give it to the poor is just like what Satan would do. Also what's happening now was foretold in the Book of Mormon with the corrupt governments and secret combinations and taxes...
I dunno, I know more Mormons like Glenn Beck than Harry Reid.
I've actually heard from multiple coworkers that they believe this election was just like the battle in the pre-mortal life; Lucifer wanted to force everyone to be good while Jesus wanted people to choose to do good. Therefore, Obama's plan to take your money forcefully and give it to the poor is just like what Satan would do. Also what's happening now was foretold in the Book of Mormon with the corrupt governments and secret combinations and taxes...
I dunno, I know more Mormons like Glenn Beck than Harry Reid.
At first I found it funny. Then the bitter tears were delicious. But now I've long since drowned in tears and it's frankly starting to get genuinely scary. It's like a view into the life of several paranoid sociopaths.
It was a long way from American presidential politics, but as Romanians gathered around their dinner tables one day last week, a national television station aired a 20-minute segment on Mormon core values - close families, hard work, clean living and helping others.
Romanian Mormons were surprised, but pleased. With fewer than 3,000 of them in the country, they arent used to being on prime time.
Three days later and 1,500 miles to the west, curious journalists turned up at Mormon Sunday worship services in at least six separate congregations in France. The following day the churchs volunteer press spokesman in Paris took another dozen calls from reporters.
During that same week German, Spanish and Belgian media seemed to be falling over each other to add their own little waves to the tidal surge of worldwide attention that has washed over The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, especially in the past year.
Nowhere has that scrutiny been more intense than here in the United States. Dozens of interviews, hundreds of TV reports, thousands of articles and blog posts. Such is the consequence when a member of a minority religion is nominated by his party as a candidate for president of the United States.
View Photo Gallery:?A look back at some moments from GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romneys campaign.
The irony of all the attention is that it was not sought. From the very beginning of the presidential election campaign, the church reminded its members and the army of political reporters that dissects every jot and tittle of election campaigns that it has long been institutionally neutral in party politics.
To be sure, individual Mormons are encouraged like every other segment of the electorate to figure out for themselves the complex stew of economics, social values and foreign policy, and then to vote. But as far as the church as an institution is concerned, its strictly hands off: no voter guides, no use of the pulpit for political speeches, no ecclesiastical endorsements.
Mormons reacted to the sharp uptick in media attention in a variety of ways. Most seemed cautiously optimistic that increased interest would lead to better understanding of a faith that has often struggled to be understood. Others were worried that in the age of sound bites and rapid-fire Internet blog posts the richness and depth of their faith would be trivialized. It turned out both were right. Some Mormons even weighed into the fray with their own blogs and books.
Once the election was over, everyone confidently expected that attention from political reporters would drop off dramatically from the exhausting level where it has been. And indeed it did. The phones didnt entirely stop ringing in the churchs public affairs offices on Wednesday this week, but there was a marked slowing down. The churchs media relations director left work a little early that afternoon to go home and rake leaves. He hasnt raked leaves in a very long time.
But some journalists were still calling with questions: What did this period mean for the Mormons? Has it helped bring the church into the mainstream? What happens next?
Other writers have already addressed those questions, and the short answer is that this is a beginning, not an end.
Joel Kotkin wrote in the City Journal :
Just as President Obamas nomination and election marked a sea change in the countrys tortured racial history, so Romneys nomination has changed religious boundaries that have persisted for more than 160 years.
The day before Election Day, in his occasional winners and losers feature, Mike Allen of Politico, one of Americas most respected political commentators, listed four winners emerging from the election season. Three of them were individuals from each of the major parties. The fourth was the Mormon Church. His reason: the electorate decided that being a Mormon and holding high office is no longer an issue.
Other journalists have been even more generous, suggesting that in the past few months the Mormon faith has moved from being a liability to an asset.
Its always risky to rush to historical judgments about short-term events. It may be years before we truly understand the impact of all of this on the church and its people, aside from any effect on the general public. But here are some preliminary reflections as the dust settles, from the perspective of an insider.
First, the church leadership has never believed this period is merely a Mormon Moment. They have much more of a long-range view.
Eight months ago, I wrote a column called More than a Mormon Moment, in which I traced the origin of that term to about the year 2000 and suggested that something much more fundamental was going on than a passing fad.
Since then, serious journalists have gotten to know us by dropping into church services, talking to our local leaders in their own homes, and joining us on service projects. Church leaders from the top down have reached out to and have been invited by dozens of community leaders including state governors, leaders of other faith groups and academics, all with the intent of providing more in depth understanding of the church, its people and practices.
It has all had a cumulative effect. The church has become more visible, more familiar, more accepted especially among those who help shape public opinion. And frankly, we have become more transparent and for a once-persecuted minority, less defensive.
However, this has helped only to a point. More visibility is not necessarily the same as increased understanding. In reality, a presidential election campaign is probably the worst time to try to educate and inform, because politics by its nature is divisive and often shrill. Many people are ready to believe the worst if it comports with their political leanings. But with the heat and divisiveness of a political campaign behind us, thoughtful Mormons can now look to the possibility of having more serious discussions with others about our faith, and especially about how our theology translates into the way we live.
Mormons make up a small minority of the American public about two percent. At rather more than six million, thats the same number as American Jews. And, of course, we are a much younger faith than Judaism and our demographics show a generally younger population. But small minority or not, there is a sense among many church members that historians of the future will look back on 2012, not as the eclipse of a Mormon Moment, but as the beginning of the real emergence of American Mormons, with all of their distinctiveness, into the rich mosaic of American religious life.
Michael Otterson leads worldwide public affairs functions of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Of course it's a very rosy picture of the situation but still not entirely inaccurate. You can take that the church has a lot more attention then it used to. But it's a double edged sword as I've brought up before. I, for one, have totally noticed more people doing more research into the church's dubious history than before Romney ran.
Also, likening the plight of the mormons to the plight of the blacks. It also ignores that Romney elder ran before. These attitudes aren't 160 years old.
Interesting article. On another note, random hearsay has it that some new mission calls are to China. Take that as you will (with a giant grain of salt).
Interesting article. On another note, random hearsay has it that some new mission calls are to China. Take that as you will (with a giant grain of salt).
Anytime that Missions take a forefront China comes up.
I've been hearing about china missions since like 86.
Wonder what it is about China.
I guess it's the last big bastion of communism. it used to be Russia and china but then russia collapsed. And now it's china. There's still tons of places that missionaries can't go. China isn't the last one.
Also, I've heard rumors that many wards are no longer giving money for missionaries that can't afford a mission to serve a mission. Is this true?
Anytime that Missions take a forefront China comes up.
I've been hearing about china missions since like 86.
Wonder what it is about China.
I guess it's the last big bastion of communism. it used to be Russia and china but then russia collapsed. And now it's china. There's still tons of places that missionaries can't go. China isn't the last one.
I always loved the talk about how "the church is now in china because of the hong kong temple. So God is close to fulfilling putting the gospel in every country" talk.
I can just imagine God being like "Hmmm....How do I get my church into China...hrmm...I know!!! I'll have the british come in and they can lease it from China for 99 years, then I'll put temple there right before it goes back to China and then I can claim it's in China! Another check for me!"
My ward at BYU is have a guys choice dance this coming saturday. In order to "make sure girls get asked" they created a google doc and are keeping track of all the girls in the ward and if they have been asked or not. Also on this list is whether the girl is dating someone steady in or outside the ward or not. The elders quorum president didn't bother try to deny that this was a blatant effort to almost guilt people into dating. I'm sure their hopes are that when guys see that the girls that haven't been asked they will be asked and provoke dating throughout the ward. They told us that if we ask someone or if we know someone who has asked someone to text them and let them know so they can update the google doc so when they show others interested they will know if the girl has been asked or not. Keep in mind that this doc is only between the elders quorum and the bishop, but doesn't it feel like this is a little shady? Having a document to see who is dating and who isn't, keeping track of if people have been asked on a date or not? I don't know, but this doesn't sit well with me.
The NBA and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir finally have something in common.
Both have now performed the classic Christmas song, "Carol of the Bells."
The NBA announced its special Christmas Day jerseys by producing a commercial featuring star players Dwight Howard (Los Angeles Lakers), Carmelo Anthony (New York Knicks), Russell Westbrook (Oklahoma City Thunder), Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) and Joe Johnson (Brooklyn Nets) dribbling basketballs to the beat of "Carol of the Bells." It's been referred to as "Carol of the Balls."
The commercial debuted on Thanksgiving Day and was featured in the New York Daily News, Huffington Post, USA Today and on ESPN.
ABC News and Yahoo Sports took a behind-the-scenes look at how the commercial was made.
The Mormon Tabernacle Choir has performed "Carol of the Bells" several times over the years.
Really? That's news? That's like saying, "First Lady takes nutritional advice from Thomas S. Monson. See, she said she loves carrots. You know who else loves carrots? That's right, Thomas S. Monson!"
Mitt Romney refused to mix religion with politics in this year's presidential campaign, but that didn't repress people's curiosity about Mormonism. His candidacy brought the homegrown faith into the spotlight.
Patrick Mason, a professor and chairman of the Mormon Studies program at Claremont Graduate University, says attention paid to his faith has been twofold. On one hand, it's been good for attracting new converts. On the other hand, it's turned Mormonism into something of a cultural punch line.
"South Park is a great example of this, The Book of Mormon musical is a great example of this, where people say, well, with increased attention comes increased scrutiny," he says. "And there are parts of our past that people just won't understand."
Mason says many people are skeptical of the church's origins, which involve the story of an angel directing Joseph Smith to golden plates and revealing a new Gospel. Many people are also dubious about claims that God lives on a planet named Kolob, or that people can become like God.
And yet, he says, many Americans don't think twice about Jesus walking on water or God sending Jews manna from heaven, because those age-old stories have become part of the culture.
"So the story of Jesus' resurrection is now accepted by the vast majority of Americans, but the story of Joseph Smith digging up gold plates or seeing angels is subject to scrutiny," Mason says.
A Fluid Faith
Mormonism is a new religion, less than 200 years old, which means many of its claims can be easily confirmed or denied by modern science. For example, even most Mormon scholars agree there's no archaeological evidence that Jews came to America in 600 B.C., as Joseph Smith claimed, or that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Mo.
Faced with those evidentiary challenges, some Mormons have felt betrayed and left the faith. Many others, like Joanna Brooks, are trying to reconcile their religion with the science. Brooks, who's a professor at San Diego State University and author of The Book of Mormon Girl, says she focuses on the fundamentals, such as a belief in God, and in Jesus' role as savior.
"Other sort of fine points of doctrine, I deal with privately," says Brooks. "And that's not uncommon in Mormonism."
Mormonism has only a few non-negotiable beliefs. Unlike traditional Christianity, there are no Mormon creeds, no paid clergy, and no theologians who hammer out Mormon doctrine. For that reason, Matthew Bowman, author of The Mormon People, says many followers are fluid with their beliefs.
"Theology evolves over time within Mormonism," Bowman says. "There is no pristine canon of theology laid down that is clear for everyone to go and look at if they have theological questions."
Shifting With Time
So, how does Mormon theology evolve? On rare occasions, a revelation from God is announced, such as when the church ended polygamy and when it allowed African-American men to become priests. But usually, Brooks says, theological changes are made with no fanfare.
"There are older stories that fade away and newer emphases that emerge," she says. "There's a very subtle evolution that happens over time with older doctrines dropping out at times."
For example, church leaders used to condemn contraception, but now couples are told to choose for themselves how many children they want to have. And church leaders haven't mentioned the planet Kolob where God is supposed to live since 1978.
"There's a cognizance today of what plays well and what will make Mormons sound strange," Mason says. "And certainly talking about God living on Kolob is something that sounds strange and is something you won't hear Mormons talk about very much today."
The most notable shift in Mormonism lately is in its branding to appear as just another branch of Christianity. For example, in an effort to mainstream the religion, a series of commercials features Mormons from all walks of life daughters, journalists, doctors, beach surfers who loyally profess their belief on camera.
"I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an NFL football player," Chad Lewis says proudly in a commercial. "And I'm a Mormon."
Kristine Haglund, editor of the journal Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, says if there is a central tenet of Mormonism, it is this: What you do is just as important as what you believe.
"So, for instance, I can be a fairly liberal feminist, and it's OK; whereas if somebody saw me walking down the street drinking coffee from Starbucks, that would quickly make the rounds of the community gossip chain and be quite scandalous," she says, referring to the Mormon rejection of artificial stimulants, like coffee or tea.
That principle of actions and beliefs weighing equally could explain Romney's rhetoric during the campaign. Instead of talking about what Mormons believe, he spoke of how his faith inspired him to help other Mormons.
His campaign, Mason says, broke barriers the way John F. Kennedy's presidency did for Catholicism.
"I think this election cycle is the culmination of what we've seen in Mormonism for the past hundred years," he says. "I mean, this is exactly what Mormonism has sought to achieve ever since it gave up polygamy and its political kingdom."
I think this sort of highlights that "crisis of faith" I keep talking about. The article talks about how there's no real core or doctrine of the church and it's fluid and evolving. But it's the only mainstream church to have a living prophet. What good is a prophet if you can just forget what he says when it's inconvenient or not popular especially after he's dead? Are they there just to tell nice stories and administrate the church? If so a pastor can do that.
I feel this article reflects Joanna Brook's "cafeteria mormon" style. Which is something I never cared for. The church isn't for you to be picking and choosing what you believe in and what you live. The LDS church was never meant to be universal unitarian. I don't think you can be like "Yeah, well I still believe in eternal families. But that whole nephite/lamanite thing? Yeah that never happened."
I'm like it's not generally accepted that there's no evidence.
No there is paid clergy and hell there's a freaking PROPHET.
There are quite a few beliefs that are non-negotiable.
This whole story really annoyed me. It was like they wanted to play the church as an evolving "do as you please" kind of thing. And it's not that at all.
I'm like it's not generally accepted that there's no evidence.
No there is paid clergy and hell there's a freaking PROPHET.
There are quite a few beliefs that are non-negotiable.
This whole story really annoyed me. It was like they wanted to play the church as an evolving "do as you please" kind of thing. And it's not that at all.
Ah well. Russia also defines the church as a cult. Not really going to bother me so much.
As for the Peruvian food thread we were on...here's a TERRIBLE pic of some awesome food I snapped at the Peruvian place around the corner. I think I'll hit it up again today. This pic is actually from the same day we were talking about it last time. You guys made me go.
Damn, which Bishop gives out these vouchers? Lemme get one.
Anyway, we don't have google-docs drawn up, but the bishopric, stake presidency, and the culture of the area in general do indulge in some guilt tripping and, more to the point, the constant "Don't hang out, go on dates." Which, to be fair, I'm lead to understand the women folk are subjected to some form of as well.
The problem, to be entirely, completely, and truthfully blunt, is this: The girls who aren't getting asked out fall into one of three categories: 1)Less attractives, sad, but true. 2)The girls who constantly pitch a fit that they aren't married yet because all the men want is the pretty 19 year olds and 3)The pretty girls who for whatever insufferable reason rebuff every man's efforts on them. With a possible, but unlikely 4th of girls who are attractive and somehow not being asked out because men are neglecting that.
Now, that's a highly chauvenistic view of things, I know, but seriously, I cannot understate how much I dislike women who spend their time whining that the 19 year olds are the only ones getting married and that's why they're on their way to becoming old maids. No, honey, you're on your way to being an old maid because you have a rotten attitude. Hell, even the less attractive girls ultimately find someone by virtue of being wonderful people; I've seen that. But this repulsive attitude of "No one will marry me because they all want the young, nubile girls!" is reprehensible. It was annoying as all heck to see my parents endorse it when I came home from my mission, too. I'm not particularly into the 19 year old crowd, because knowing they were in 2nd grade or whatever when I was in 7th is off putting, but a man should not be guilted because he chose to have a younger wife (assuming the legal age). We only get one nowadays, so the choice might as well be one into which both parties enter in happily and of their own volition.
Aaaaaaaanyway, yes, guilt tripping does exist, no, no google doc, and mostly its about not dating the older girls in the ward. Of which I am sympathetic; being myself an older guy in the ward these days, I get that, I do. But man when they start whining up a storm about how wrong it is for guys to want to date and marry the cheerful, attractive, not whining up a storm 19 year olds, it grinds my gears. It's like, LOOK GIRL, Lehi said we either act or are acted upon. You want some action? Stop waiting around for someone to act on you and go get it.
But that plays into my whole dislike of women who use their gender as an excuse not to do things, and if I go down that road I'm just ranting.
Ah well. Russia also defines the church as a cult. Not really going to bother me so much.
As for the Peruvian food thread we were on...here's a TERRIBLE pic of some awesome food I snapped at the Peruvian place around the corner. I think I'll hit it up again today. This pic is actually from the same day we were talking about it last time. You guys made me go.
My wife got a guilt trip from her mother today. In wish one day they would try something like that when I am around, the back hand I would give them would make history.
Damn, which Bishop gives out these vouchers? Lemme get one.
Anyway, we don't have google-docs drawn up, but the bishopric, stake presidency, and the culture of the area in general do indulge in some guilt tripping and, more to the point, the constant "Don't hang out, go on dates." Which, to be fair, I'm lead to understand the women folk are subjected to some form of as well.
The problem, to be entirely, completely, and truthfully blunt, is this: The girls who aren't getting asked out fall into one of three categories: 1)Less attractives, sad, but true. 2)The girls who constantly pitch a fit that they aren't married yet because all the men want is the pretty 19 year olds and 3)The pretty girls who for whatever insufferable reason rebuff every man's efforts on them. With a possible, but unlikely 4th of girls who are attractive and somehow not being asked out because men are neglecting that.
Now, that's a highly chauvenistic view of things, I know, but seriously, I cannot understate how much I dislike women who spend their time whining that the 19 year olds are the only ones getting married and that's why they're on their way to becoming old maids. No, honey, you're on your way to being an old maid because you have a rotten attitude. Hell, even the less attractive girls ultimately find someone by virtue of being wonderful people; I've seen that. But this repulsive attitude of "No one will marry me because they all want the young, nubile girls!" is reprehensible. It was annoying as all heck to see my parents endorse it when I came home from my mission, too. I'm not particularly into the 19 year old crowd, because knowing they were in 2nd grade or whatever when I was in 7th is off putting, but a man should not be guilted because he chose to have a younger wife (assuming the legal age). We only get one nowadays, so the choice might as well be one into which both parties enter in happily and of their own volition.
Aaaaaaaanyway, yes, guilt tripping does exist, no, no google doc, and mostly its about not dating the older girls in the ward. Of which I am sympathetic; being myself an older guy in the ward these days, I get that, I do. But man when they start whining up a storm about how wrong it is for guys to want to date and marry the cheerful, attractive, not whining up a storm 19 year olds, it grinds my gears. It's like, LOOK GIRL, Lehi said we either act or are acted upon. You want some action? Stop waiting around for someone to act on you and go get it.
But that plays into my whole dislike of women who use their gender as an excuse not to do things, and if I go down that road I'm just ranting.
So I was going to say something sarcastic but then I decided that maybe it would be better to share a different perspective. Whether you take it or leave it it's up to you.
You know, I can get the not liking people who whine bit. I hate whining just as much as any other person. It drives me crazy when my 9 year old step son comes to me and talks to me in a baby voice and then starts crying because he has to eat his tomato's to get dessert. It stresses me out when my 6 year old son stomps off and starts whining " why? why? why?" when he doesn't get his way. I really get annoyed with whining just ask Ronito. But I have to say that as much as you are annoyed by these girls, I think you are being very harsh.
You have to understand that being a mormon girl in her twenties and thirties and so forth and not married is hell! We are told from the time we are born that we are supposed to get married in the temple as soon as we are able and start our journey to motherhood. Of course the usual " you can be whatever you want to be" is thrown in there but the emphasis is mainly on getting married as soon as you can. You are always being asked what temple you want to get married in, what list of qualities your future husband should have( we actually are asked to make this list at church as part of a YW lesson), what colors are you going to choose for your reception, I bet you just can't wait for the day that you get married? When your 16 and 17 you are much to young, but as soon as you turn 18 and graduate from high school getting married in the temple should be your first priority ( as well as getting an education of course as long as that doesn't get in the way). When you reach young womens the duties and calling of marriage and motherhood is as common talk as stay away from pornography and go on a mission is in priesthood.
We are drilled with how we are chosen daughters of God given this divine calling. So it's no surprise that when it doesn't happen right away disappointment ensues. After you're 21 the way you are treated by other mormons starts to change a bit. " You're 21 now and not married? Oh well....sigh....that's okay I guess. Oh, I know! You should go on a mission!" And then after mission age passes or when you come home from your mission the pressure to fulfill your absolute divine calling increases. Every year after that you remain single the weight and pressure continues. " You need to go to this singles ward, maybe you'll find him there." or " You should join institute, maybe you'll find him there." or "It didn't happen this year but maybe next year it will." or " Don't worry, you'll meet him someday." or(and you have to love this one), " Don't worry, you are promised that if you don't get married in this life the lord will arrange it in the next life." Hummm......The lord will arrange for it to happen in the after life, eh? Just like a train conductor moves people around to arrange for a place for you to sit when the train is full. Oh, that's supposed to make you feel better. Sheesh!
You are then left with thoughts of " I don't understand. I've done everything I'm supposed to. Everything I was told to. I've kept every commandment. Why then can I not fulfill my noble calling? There must be something wrong with me."
"There must be something wrong with me" starts to ring louder and louder inside when your 25 and 26 and you watch the girls that were still in primary or just entering beehives when you were 18 and 19 get married and begin the life they were meant to. It's hell to see that happen because even though you are striving to keep every commandment you are still not able to fulfill your divine calling, yet they are. Not to mention, when you do go to those weddings to support the girls you helped to teach it doesn't help the situation any when it seems that everyone comes up to ask you " So, when are you getting married?" or " So when is it going to be you? When will it be your turn?" or " How come you're not getting married yet?" And yes there are even some people who have the gall to say " You know you are not keeping God's commandments by not going out there and seeking out and finding your husband." Oh yes, that really makes a person who is already humiliated and embarrassed feel so much better about themselves and it gives them just the right amount of encouragement and confidence they need to make it all happen.
It's rough being in your mid to late 20's and 30's and still single. You start to become people's "special project" where suddenly everyone becomes a matchmaker. Guys love to whine and complain about always being " friend zoned" but guess what? It happens all the time to older single mormon girls. And the fact is, most of the time we really are being "friend zoned" to the younger ones. It's no wonder that some of the older single Mormon girls start to be frustrated and maybe feel some resentment toward the younger girls who seem to be swept up right and left all around them while they are feeling left behind.
Bad attitudes you say? For some this may be true but when it comes down to it it's not surprising at all.
Don't wait to be acted upon, act and make it happen you say? Every single Mormon girl is doing their best to make that happen, even the older ones. But let's not forget the fact that they also grow up believing that as long as they are keeping all the commandments they will find their eternal companion. Also, let's not forget that the older a single mormon girl gets the harder it can be to "make it happen" because they are now faced with the idea of finding a new divine calling which can make it more difficult to find themselves in situations to meet anyone. And just like you guys, older single mormon girls are just as tired of all the tears and drama that comes with relationships that just aren't working. Some get to the point where they have to take a break from the whole dating scene game but it doesn't make things easier for them with the way they are treated by other Mormons.
Just somethings to think about next time you find yourself complaining about this. Remember, it's just as hard and hellish for them as it is for you.
SALT LAKE CITY — When the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently reduced the age requirement for missionaries by one year for men, to 18, and by two years for women, to 19, the number of women applying to serve jumped five-fold.
At the same time, the church reaffirmed that women would serve just 18 months, compared with two years for men. That rule, combined with the one-year difference in age requirements, touched off a new round of questions from Mormon feminists about how much progress women in the church are actually making.
"I didn't get it — why the difference in age and length of service?" said Eileen Mendez, a senior at the University of Utah majoring in Arabic. "Why couldn't things be equal?"
For years, Mormon advocates for women's rights have asked that same question about equality. Though the Mormon liturgy praises women as life-givers, men dominate the management of the church. Women cannot be ordained to a lay priesthood available to men and boys 12 or older. That gives men a spiritual and practical power that women do not share, critics say.
The church says that women's roles aren't lesser, just different. Church leaders point to the Relief Society as an example. It is one of the largest philanthropic organizations in the world, and it is entirely led and run by Mormon women.
On her blog Flunking Sainthood, Mormon author Jana Riess called the new missionary age requirement an example of "progress with an asterisk."
"It's just not equality, and after a few glorious moments of believing it would be, that stings," she said.
The Internet age has given such sentiments a far-reaching platform. One social blog, Feminist Mormon Housewives, started in 2004 by an Idaho woman who said she was discouraged from mentioning her feminist politics in her church social circle, now has 1,000 members.
A separate online petition signed by hundreds of Mormon women nationwide calls for the church to fill positions without regard to gender and allow women to preside over church meetings without a man present. "It's time to talk about this stuff — it has been for decades," said Pam Harrison, a Utah social worker who signed the petition.
But although it is growing, the feminist movement is far from the mainstream of the faith.
In a landmark study in January, the Pew Research Center reported that 58% of American Mormons say that the more satisfying kind of marriage is one in which the husband provides for the family and the wife takes care of the house and children. About 38% prefer a marriage in which both the husband and wife have jobs and both take care of the house and children. Among the general public, including many other major religious groups, the balance of opinion on this question is reversed. Mormon men and women express similar views on this question, and there is no difference in views across age groups.
Rebecca Lane, editor of the Universe student newspaper at Brigham Young University, says: "I'm a woman in power — I'm the editor of my student newspaper. I just disagree about this whole idea of church sexism. Women are admired in our faith."
"Men and women are complete equals in the sight of God and in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," church spokesman Michael Purdy said in an email. "Any belief outside of this truth is not supported in the doctrines and teachings of the church."
Mormon scholars say the church will not be rushed into altering its doctrines. "The church responds with incremental change that satisfies the gradualists but never satisfies the revolutionaries," said Terryl Givens, a Mormon professor of literature and religion at the University of Richmond in Virginia. "The church is never going to [ascribe] to a particular vision of feminism that aspires to eradicate all differences between men and women."
After the missionary announcement, church leader Jeffrey R. Holland, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was asked why officials didn't allow women to serve for two years like men. "One miracle at a time," he said.
Over the years, Mormon feminists have butted heads with church leadership. Decades ago, Sonia Johnson, a Virginia church organist, was excommunicated for speaking out against the faith's opposition to the national Equal Rights Amendment. In the 1990s, Mormon feminists were among half a dozen scholars purged by the church for their criticism. The group, some of them men, became known as the September Six.
Karen Crist, 55, a Utah psychotherapist, was also threatened with excommunication for starting a Mormon women's forum in 1990 that drew hundreds to monthly meetings.
Some church critics on the Internet have taken an increasingly harsher tone, often referring to the Relief Society as separate and unequal. In a recent blog, Riess wrote: "No man gets the right to reassure me that I'm his equal when every single outward sign of how the church is run tells a different story."
Kristine Haglund, editor of Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, is a self-described feminist who as a 9-year-old quoted Gloria Steinem in a church speech, announcing that "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." Years later, she is more circumspect. "You have to pick whether you want to work inside or outside the church," she said. "Many of the frustrated have voted with their feet."
That's what Crist did. Although she is now a non-practicing Mormon, she says she wants her 24-year-old daughter to make her own decision. "I think she's too much of her own person to drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak," she said. "I think she'll be one of those who gets it."
A bit of a correction: Relief Society isn't entirely run by women. Every relief society president has a man whom they report into/work under the direction of.
I have to admit I don't really get the whole feminist LDS movement, just like I never understood black mormons either. The separate but equal thing just doesn't really jive with me. Sure, women have their own organizations. But those organizations roll up to a man. And while a man can play almost any leadership role in the church, there's only three roles for women. Relief society president, primary president, young women's. Or as one of my feminist mormon friends put it: Take care of the wives and mothers, take care of the kids or prepare women to be wives and mothers.
Any why is it every time there's a discussion with a feminist mormon they bring up Heavenly Mother? I don't get that at all. I'm like "You can talk about your rights and how the church doesn't give you progression and all that and you decide to spend time talking about heavenly mother?"
The status of women in the church is one of the glaringly obvious signs of cognitive dissonance I still see. Even events like these, where the end result is still obviously (and surprisingly) unequal are heralded as some great revelation. Equal but different roles...right. Acceptance of this kind of logic baffles me.
What brought me back to the thread though is I stumbled upon this guy's youtube videos after someone posted one on Reddit. Very thoughtful, not inflammatory, and probably what I'm going to link the next family member who attempts to reconvert me to. I think his tone and overall package is much more approachable and may prove useful in explaining myself without getting dragged into more heated "debates."
The status of women in the church is one of the glaringly obvious signs of cognitive dissonance I still see. Even events like these, where the end result is still obviously (and surprisingly) unequal are heralded as some great revelation. Equal but different roles...right. Acceptance of this kind of logic baffles me.
What brought me back to the thread though is I stumbled upon this guy's youtube videos after someone posted one on Reddit. Very thoughtful, not inflammatory, and probably what I'm going to link the next family member who attempts to reconvert me to. I think his tone and overall package is much more approachable and may prove useful in explaining myself without getting dragged into more heated "debates."
I watched that video series last night.
I have to say even with it's approachable non-confrontational tone and everything it's a great resource for people that have left to be able to look back and say "Ah! That explains a lot!"
But I don't think it's going to help anyone who has decided to be an active member. Essentially they'll look at this and think "Oh he went all scientist atheist." Showing Dawkins isn't going to help him. In the first few he did a very good job of quoting church people but towards the end he left that.
I do think it's good I just don't know how much effect it'd actually have on active mormons to try and understand why people leave.
I watched that video series last night.
I have to say even with it's approachable non-confrontational tone and everything it's a great resource for people that have left to be able to look back and say "Ah! That explains a lot!"
But I don't think it's going to help anyone who has decided to be an active member. Essentially they'll look at this and think "Oh he went all scientist atheist." Showing Dawkins isn't going to help him. In the first few he did a very good job of quoting church people but towards the end he left that.
I do think it's good I just don't know how much effect it'd actually have on active mormons to try and understand why people leave.
I think the best part about it is the commitment to truth, i.e. being willing to seek truth regardless of where it takes you. Far too often I get people trying to convince me that I'm wrong than trying to understand why I feel the way I do. Personally, when I began questioning the church, the moment I accepted that it was possible that the church might not be true, the whole thing almost instantly fell apart.
Still, I'm not out to deconvert anyone, just to make myself understood.
A bit of a correction: Relief Society isn't entirely run by women. Every relief society president has a man whom they report into/work under the direction of.
It's also the case with the primary. When I was in the primary presidency we had to get approval for everything. I wrote the primary program each year I was in the presidency and before we could hand out the parts to the kids we had to get the bishops approval first. When I was in the young Womens presidency I remember having to report and get approval from our bishopric as well on various things we wanted to do. While women can hold leadership positions we're still very much assistant managers in a way.
It's also the case with the primary. When I was in the primary presidency we had to get approval for everything. I wrote the primary program each year I was in the presidency and before we could hand out the parts to the kids we had to get the bishops approval first. When I was in the young Womens presidency I remember having to report and get approval from our bishopric as well on various things we wanted to do. While women can hold leadership positions we're still very much assistant managers in a way.
Personally, when I began questioning the church, the moment I accepted that it was possible that the church might not be true, the whole thing almost instantly fell apart.
It took me a month to work through the various phobias attached to doubting, but then it became "but of course" all at one moment. I actually have an extremely vivid memory of it happening, but unfortunately I never wrote down the date.
While you are correct about that, everyone does have to report up the chain. In the article that Ronito posted it was talking about how the relief society was completely run by the women of the church. Which of course is not true. they still have to report and get approval for everything. it is a widely misconception about the relief society and other women's leadership positions with in the church. Yes, even the men have to go up the chain but the article was talking about women's roles, therefore the emphasis I gave was on women's roles.
It took me a month to work through the various phobias attached to doubting, but then it became "but of course" all at one moment. I actually have an extremely vivid memory of it happening, but unfortunately I never wrote down the date.
Really?
For me it was more of a line upon line precept on precept thing.
But then I'm not your ordinary, fearlessly extraordinary, working righteous hari kari. In my humble way, of course.
Really?
For me it was more of a line upon line precept on precept thing.
But then I'm not your ordinary, fearlessly extraordinary, working righteous hari kari. In my humble way, of course.
Really?
For me it was more of a line upon line precept on precept thing.
But then I'm not your ordinary, fearlessly extraordinary, working righteous hari kari. In my humble way, of course.
For me it was a miserable year or more of cognitive dissonance, depression, wondering what was wrong with me and how could I change to finally "feel the spirit" like I had always wanted. Until, and I remember it very vividly like Hito, I had that moment where I finally said "What if it's not me and it's the church?"
I'd like to say everything became perfect after that, which is of course not true. But the greatest burden on my life had been lifted and I was able to progress to where I am today: happier than I've ever been with a great outlook on life. I'm engaged, own a home, have a dog...life's never been better
So I was going to say something sarcastic but then I decided that maybe it would be better to share a different perspective. Whether you take it or leave it it's up to you.
You know, I can get the not liking people who whine bit. I hate whining just as much as any other person. It drives me crazy when my 9 year old step son comes to me and talks to me in a baby voice and then starts crying because he has to eat his tomato's to get dessert. It stresses me out when my 6 year old son stomps off and starts whining " why? why? why?" when he doesn't get his way. I really get annoyed with whining just ask Ronito. But I have to say that as much as you are annoyed by these girls, I think you are being very harsh.
You have to understand that being a mormon girl in her twenties and thirties and so forth and not married is hell! We are told from the time we are born that we are supposed to get married in the temple as soon as we are able and start our journey to motherhood. Of course the usual " you can be whatever you want to be" is thrown in there but the emphasis is mainly on getting married as soon as you can. You are always being asked what temple you want to get married in, what list of qualities your future husband should have( we actually are asked to make this list at church as part of a YW lesson), what colors are you going to choose for your reception, I bet you just can't wait for the day that you get married? When your 16 and 17 you are much to young, but as soon as you turn 18 and graduate from high school getting married in the temple should be your first priority ( as well as getting an education of course as long as that doesn't get in the way). When you reach young womens the duties and calling of marriage and motherhood is as common talk as stay away from pornography and go on a mission is in priesthood.
We are drilled with how we are chosen daughters of God given this divine calling. So it's no surprise that when it doesn't happen right away disappointment ensues. After you're 21 the way you are treated by other mormons starts to change a bit. " You're 21 now and not married? Oh well....sigh....that's okay I guess. Oh, I know! You should go on a mission!" And then after mission age passes or when you come home from your mission the pressure to fulfill your absolute divine calling increases. Every year after that you remain single the weight and pressure continues. " You need to go to this singles ward, maybe you'll find him there." or " You should join institute, maybe you'll find him there." or "It didn't happen this year but maybe next year it will." or " Don't worry, you'll meet him someday." or(and you have to love this one), " Don't worry, you are promised that if you don't get married in this life the lord will arrange it in the next life." Hummm......The lord will arrange for it to happen in the after life, eh? Just like a train conductor moves people around to arrange for a place for you to sit when the train is full. Oh, that's supposed to make you feel better. Sheesh!
You are then left with thoughts of " I don't understand. I've done everything I'm supposed to. Everything I was told to. I've kept every commandment. Why then can I not fulfill my noble calling? There must be something wrong with me."
"There must be something wrong with me" starts to ring louder and louder inside when your 25 and 26 and you watch the girls that were still in primary or just entering beehives when you were 18 and 19 get married and begin the life they were meant to. It's hell to see that happen because even though you are striving to keep every commandment you are still not able to fulfill your divine calling, yet they are. Not to mention, when you do go to those weddings to support the girls you helped to teach it doesn't help the situation any when it seems that everyone comes up to ask you " So, when are you getting married?" or " So when is it going to be you? When will it be your turn?" or " How come you're not getting married yet?" And yes there are even some people who have the gall to say " You know you are not keeping God's commandments by not going out there and seeking out and finding your husband." Oh yes, that really makes a person who is already humiliated and embarrassed feel so much better about themselves and it gives them just the right amount of encouragement and confidence they need to make it all happen.
It's rough being in your mid to late 20's and 30's and still single. You start to become people's "special project" where suddenly everyone becomes a matchmaker. Guys love to whine and complain about always being " friend zoned" but guess what? It happens all the time to older single mormon girls. And the fact is, most of the time we really are being "friend zoned" to the younger ones. It's no wonder that some of the older single Mormon girls start to be frustrated and maybe feel some resentment toward the younger girls who seem to be swept up right and left all around them while they are feeling left behind.
Bad attitudes you say? For some this may be true but when it comes down to it it's not surprising at all.
Don't wait to be acted upon, act and make it happen you say? Every single Mormon girl is doing their best to make that happen, even the older ones. But let's not forget the fact that they also grow up believing that as long as they are keeping all the commandments they will find their eternal companion. Also, let's not forget that the older a single mormon girl gets the harder it can be to "make it happen" because they are now faced with the idea of finding a new divine calling which can make it more difficult to find themselves in situations to meet anyone. And just like you guys, older single mormon girls are just as tired of all the tears and drama that comes with relationships that just aren't working. Some get to the point where they have to take a break from the whole dating scene game but it doesn't make things easier for them with the way they are treated by other Mormons.
Just somethings to think about next time you find yourself complaining about this. Remember, it's just as hard and hellish for them as it is for you.
1.)Hello Ronito's wife. It's a pleasure to meet you
2.) I realize I'm being a bit harsh, but what frustrates me is that, ultimately, both sides suffer this same problem. I know young women go through these problems, my older sisters have made that plain and clear to me over the years. But what I detest is how often it becomes the men who are cast as the villain in the situation.
I shouldn't have to feel guilty, let alone obligated, over the fact that there are women who aren't wed at that age. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty if I'm not attracted to someone, and however sorry I am that these kind sisters have wound up in that plight, it agitates me to no end how many of them preach the gospel of guilt to the men over this. It's one thing for the bishopric to sit us down and say "stop hanging out and start dating" because it will always be the place of Church leaders to urge young members to do some growing up; but it is something else entirely to have the sisters complain and complain and complain that they're left out to dry.
The culture does not differ so significantly for young men and young women. Oh, perhaps the great burden is placed on Mission and not Marriage, but the minute you're home, everybody wants you wed, bred, and in the Young Men's Presidency. And just as soon as the ward sees you aren't married yet, those same looks you got for being slow in serving a mission come a crawlin' back.
And to be honest: I do want to get married! I do want to fall in love! Who doesn't? I want the storybook romance where we ride off into the sunset and make love by the sea shore all the rest of our days. I want to whisk a girl off her feet, to be the dashing young RM who makes all her wildest and holiest dreams come true. And so help me, I do my part. I ask women out, I go on dates, but as I said before in the most unfortunately chauvenistic of terms: polygamy is gone. I only get to have one. And I want to be darn sure.
I just don't like that there are so many sisters who characterize this problem as solely that of the men's creation, because it isn't. I'm not looking to blame anyone alone, because there's plenty to go around. Is it truly any less shallow of the sisters to cast things in term of age as the young men cast them in terms of appearance? It's wrong of both sides to do, and it doesn't help any of us get where we want to go.
I say it IS as hard for the men as it is for the women. Maybe my perspective is skewed because I'm here at Rexburg, but the competition is fierce. The Nephis have us Sams out-matched, and rather than doing us all a favor and pairing off, every ward, every class, everywhere you look you've got Father Abrahams running around with a literal flock of women. And because it's Rexburg, the air is cold and the women colder. That's a crass way of putting things, I confess, but really, there are women who reflect dates like mirrors reflect light.
And as I've already said, it isn't like that SAME pressure to wed isn't on us. The whole mission it's there, and every Elder mulls it over, and then you come home and nobody, your closest of companions included, bothers to ask if you're dating, if you're seeing someone, or how you are. The first question out of EVERYONE'S mouth is "When are you getting married?" And you see all your companions who already have wed, and you see the calendar mocking you with the sheer number of years its been since you came home and you haven't wed yet, and you know you're keeping the commandments and you served your God faithfully for two full years, and there's no mission to go running back to now. It's wed or become that guy who's nearing 40 and still hitting on the 19 year olds.
The same maddening impetus exists for both sexes, and that's why I get so frustrated when the men are cast so negatively. Your progression in the Priesthood, your progression in Church callings, your social status in some ways is all tied to whether or not you've gotten married. And while you haven't been scrap booking and writing letters to this person since you were small, you've had it beaten into your skull from a young age to be nice to girls, and that if you pass a certain age without marrying you're a danger to society, etc.
I'm sort of ranting at this point, but it really does drive me nuts when I hear this, and it shocked me to hear it from my own parents, because it's close minded and petty thinking. If not everyone, most everyone wants to get married, and they want it to be to the right person. Why should I feel guilty if all these women who are a decade older than I aren't that person? Why must I feel guilty or that I'm doing something wrong when I fall in love with a girl who is closer to 18 than 35? Who are all of these sisters, to sit in judgment of me and what I do with my only decision?
I apologize for this being a directionless rant. The dating scene in Rexburg is fierce and it's Finals week so I'm all kinds of on edge.
Best way for me to find someone was to become content with being single and happy with who I was and where my life was going. Almost exactly when being single stopped being an issue, I stopped being single. Not giving a damn is like putting a bright beacon of "come unto me" to the ladies. Or guys.
For a young Mormon girl or guy who feels pressured to start popping out the babies...seems almost like a catch 22
Really?
For me it was more of a line upon line precept on precept thing.
But then I'm not your ordinary, fearlessly extraordinary, working righteous hari kari. In my humble way, of course.
Well, the beginning of that month was when I got pushed into the deep end, initially through a general examination of group dynamics(in which I made the connection on my own, lowering my guard) then rapidly into a discovery of all the holes and falsehoods. I wasn't actually convinced that night and I swore to investigate it for myself, but the damage was already done. Much of that investigation ended up being a postmortem over the course of the following months and years.
I saw the same patterns in others regarding things that were obviously wrong as members of the church behave when confronted with the less seemly side of church history. If the spirit was the arbiter of truth then there wouldn't be the same fervency of belief in other religions as obviously the spirit wouldn't testify of truth when you're wrong.
Once I thought the spirit was something I was doing rather than something God did, everything went away. The fact that I can still lie to myself and get that same feeling, and can even lie it to others (In the MTC you're trained to use the first vision as the way to identify the spirit. I made up a story about a fake pioneer that carried an orphaned child on his back, and due to exposure and his own damaged feet lost a foot, and later in life that child grew up and carried the older man when he could no longer be mobile with his walking staff. And that's why we have to prepare ourselves to receive the lord's blessings and how we can make our own lives more full by helping others.. etc. I pictured this and recited it until it would make me cry reliably) I tried this on my sister who is also questioning/out. We identified the same feelings during the first vision and my made up story. I felt the same feeling telling my lie as I did telling Joseph Smith's vision, peace, fullness, burning in the bosom. I haven't been calloused enough to try my lie on a believing member of my family.
So that means that either:
1. I am just feeling an emotional response to beautiful and poignant lies and have never actually felt the spirit, which calls into question God's influence and the fact that if I had never felt it, then how could the spirit even be a help to anyone.
2. Or that this feeling is what people actually call the spirit and it's all their own feelings.
With the foundation of my faith gone everything really quickly became clear with regards to discrepancies in church history and changes in doctrine. Maybe it's different for others but I can tell lies and feel the "spirit". That ain't the spirit, and if the spirit exists I have never felt it's influence. Up to that point I had 2 kids, was present at their births, bore my testimony often, spoke powerfully in church, paid my tithing, didn't watch porn, had been a seminary teacher, worked as a veil worker in the temple, kept all temple recommend question rules, and had prayed for an entire night about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The answer I had received was what I believed to be a vision combined with that feeling I thought was the spirit. I only mention all the good mormon stuff in order to dispel the idea that notion that I obviously could not have ever felt the spirit because I was evil.
I you say the devil is the one who give other people that feeling of peace in other religions when they pray to god, or you say that the devil is what fueled that feeling when I was doing my experiments with lying then the devil's influence is not discernible from the spirit, and the spirit is a pointless "companion" since he can't actually do anything.
Cliff notes: The spirit is just you and your feelings and convictions reinforcing themselves. It is not god.
My entire believe rested on that answer to the Book of Mormon, everything else was just noise. Once I turned the corner I realized that the noise had a pretty good point. Hell, I felt the "spirit" writing this post.
