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[btkadams]

It's basically a series of rituals, ordinances, and instruction that are meant to prepare a person for entrance into God's presence after death. You make covenants with God there that are very specific. It's also where eternal marriages are performed in a sealing ceremony. It puts man and wife together for eternity, not to be parted after death. Any kids born to a man and woman who have been married in the temple are sealed to them as they're born under the covenant. Children who are not born under the covenant can also be sealed to their parents.

Since my dad wasn't a member when I was born, we later went to the temple as a family and were all sealed together. My parents were first married in the temple and then my brother and I were sealed to them. Since my wife and I were married in the temple, my son is already sealed to us.

It makes much more sense if you're raised in the church or at least have an understanding of the temple. Basically the idea is to get the entire human family sealed together and to receive the temple endowment. The first time you go to the temple you go for yourself. Every time after the first time, you go as a proxy for a deceased individual. They are given the choice to accept or reject your proxy work in the afterlife.

interesting! thanks for the info.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

wow Jeff-DSA nailed it.

 

[KingGondo]

yeah i'm sure most of us are but there are things like ceremonies and stuff that mormons aren't supposed to talk about with non-mormons. it's kind of breaking the rules, is it not?

If they're ex-Mormon, I don't see what's at risk except for the sensibilities of the LDS members who are still active. I understand that it is a traumatic event for some ex-members, too. I know this sounds like a joke, but maybe spoiler tags would be appropriate so people who want to avoid it can do so?

Not much they can really do to stop someone from posting their experience. And that's more what I'm interested in, anyways--the specific experiences of the people who have come into contact with the church, and how that affected them.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

If they're ex-Mormon, I don't see what's at risk except for the sensibilities of the LDS members who are still active. I understand that it is a traumatic event for some ex-members, too. I know this sounds like a joke, but maybe spoiler tags would be appropriate so people who want to avoid it can do so?

Not much they can really do to stop someone from posting their experience. And that's more what I'm interested in, anyways--the specific experiences of the people who have come into contact with the church, and how that affected them.

I have no problem with spoiler tagging it at least someone who might be still active has a chance to skip it.

thanks for being respectful +1

 

[hellclerk]

1. The Church's aesthetics are mostly a product of the time / place of it's origination. The Church doesn't use crosses because they feel it is more important to focus on the image of resurrected Jesus, not cross Jesus. It's just an aesthetic thing, really.

Actually, you ask a Catholic, denying the cross is quite the heresy. It's not because we shouldn't celebrate Jesus' life, but rather because the cross is the ultimate form of humility, even God debasing himself to the level of a common thief, all for a love of us. This is actually more of a reflection on protestant individualist theology, which again, in Mormonism is a product of its time/place, though it's far more than "just an aesthetic thing".

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Basically (from my understanding, mind you I never did the ritual) its a kind of masonic secret handshake don't mention this outside of the temple or we will kill you type of deal so I doubt anyone that actually did it is going to get into the details here.

It's not given under threat of death, but it's something considered very sacred and you promise before God that you won't reveal what you've learned in the temple.

In my experience the people who enjoy their first trip are those that were prepared. You can go from around the time you're 18 or older, but you have to receive a temple recommend from your bishop to go. It's a series of questions to help determine if you're A) worthy to enter the temple, and B) ready for it. Many go that aren't quite ready and it can freak them out because it's A LOT that is presented to you and asked of you.

I loved my first trip to the temple and I like going when I get the chance. I've had friends that came out wide eyed and confused, and I've had friends that came out elated and enthusiastic. I always tell people not to go until they're ready.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Actually, you ask a Catholic, denying the cross is quite the heresy. It's not because we shouldn't celebrate Jesus' life, but rather because the cross is the ultimate form of humility, even God debasing himself to the level of a common thief, all for a love of us. This is actually more of a reflection on protestant individualist theology, which again, in Mormonism is a product of its time/place, though it's far more than "just an aesthetic thing".

It's not denying the cross. There are depictions of Christ's crucifixion in the LDS church. We just don't use it as the symbol of our church or incorporate it in our materials much.

Here's a very common piece of art that's used to depict the crucifixion.

If you see Christ depicted in LDS art, however, it's rarely going to be upon the cross. You'll more than likely run into depictions of His life, like this.

 

[Laurentius]

It's not given under threat of death, but it's something considered very sacred and you promise before God that you won't reveal what you've learned in the temple.

In my experience the people who enjoy their first trip are those that were prepared. You can go from around the time you're 18 or older, but you have to receive a temple recommend from your bishop to go. It's a series of questions to help determine if you're A) worthy to enter the temple, and B) ready for it. Many go that aren't quite ready and it can freak them out because it's A LOT that is presented to you and asked of you.

I loved my first trip to the temple and I like going when I get the chance. I've had friends that came out wide eyed and confused, and I've had friends that came out elated and enthusiastic. I always tell people not to go until they're ready.

Great post, Jeff. In all honesty, I wasn't prepared for it myself. Felt very strange to me. But in all honesty, I think just because it was unfamiliar. In all honesty, a lot of what Christians in general do would seem odd if we weren't familiar with it. Communion or sacrament, baptisms, etc. We're just familiar with the concept, so it doesn't seem odd.

I love the temple now, though.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Great post, Jeff. In all honesty, I wasn't prepared for it myself. Felt very strange to me. But in all honesty, I think just because it was unfamiliar. In all honesty, a lot of what Christians in general do would seem odd if we weren't familiar with it. Communion or sacrament, baptisms, etc. We're just familiar with the concept, so it doesn't seem odd.

I love the temple now, though.

Also, for those that just read about it, it's WAY MORE odd sounding than it is to experience for yourself. Many accounts of it all online are flawed to some degree as well.

 

[Flo_Evans]

It's not given under threat of death, but it's something considered very sacred and you promise before God that you won't reveal what you've learned in the temple.

I thought at one point it was, and was latter changed? This is admittedly 2nd hand info I found when reading ex-mormon stories (possibly propaganda...)

To me though the fact that we spent all this time studying and never really got the "full" truth was the most off putting.

I guess some people like the structure and layers to discover. I see allot of people talk about the eternal progression, me personally I would rather someone claiming to know the answers to the universe and the meaning of life spill the beans and be upfront about it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

It's basically a series of rituals, ordinances, and instruction that are meant to prepare a person for entrance into God's presence after death. You make covenants with God there that are very specific. It's also where eternal marriages are performed in a sealing ceremony. It puts man and wife together for eternity, not to be parted after death. Any kids born to a man and woman who have been married in the temple are sealed to them as they're born under the covenant. Children who are not born under the covenant can also be sealed to their parents.

Since my dad wasn't a member when I was born, we later went to the temple as a family and were all sealed together. My parents were first married in the temple and then my brother and I were sealed to them. Since my wife and I were married in the temple, my son is already sealed to us.

It makes much more sense if you're raised in the church or at least have an understanding of the temple. Basically the idea is to get the entire human family sealed together and to receive the temple endowment. The first time you go to the temple you go for yourself. Every time after the first time, you go as a proxy for a deceased individual. They are given the choice to accept or reject your proxy work in the afterlife.

Conceptually, it's wonderful, and was something I was looking forward to. What you describe is part of why I joined the church and wantedt to believe in it. As you said in your post since this, it's very odd to experience, though. The gap between concept and ritual is massive. I think that's something the church would do well to better prepare people for. Never once was the strangeness of the rituals ever hinted at to me. I don't recall what I had in mind when I went in, but it sure wasn't anything like what took place. I remember leaving angry that no one warned me.

And while it's true that religious rituals, when you step back, all are strange, I'd argue that the stuff in the temples is a cut above. Baptism is quite benign in comparison to the washing and anointing, for instance.

 

[ronito]

In my experience the people who enjoy their first trip are those that were prepared. You can go from around the time you're 18 or older, but you have to receive a temple recommend from your bishop to go. It's a series of questions to help determine if you're A) worthy to enter the temple, and B) ready for it. Many go that aren't quite ready and it can freak them out because it's A LOT that is presented to you and asked of you.

You must've known as you typed this up that I'd call you out on this. Plenty of people that were freaked out were "plenty prepared". I had read the book and attended the classes. It's not entirely fair to say if someone got freaked out it was because they just weren't ready.

I was talking about the same thing about how the endowment freaked me out to my sister in law and she said that it was the same for her but she kept on doing it until she was comfortable with it. I got in trouble when I replied "This is religion and salvation, not anal sex."

And technically pre mid 80s it was given on threat of death. You promised to cut your own throat and pull your tongue out. No longer. But it was there.

 

[btkadams]

Great post, Jeff. In all honesty, I wasn't prepared for it myself. Felt very strange to me. But in all honesty, I think just because it was unfamiliar. In all honesty, a lot of what Christians in general do would seem odd if we weren't familiar with it. Communion or sacrament, baptisms, etc. We're just familiar with the concept, so it doesn't seem odd.

I love the temple now, though.

 

[Haly]

Just making sure here but when people mention polygamy and Mormonism together they are referring exclusively to polygyny, right? Or is polyandry also allowed?

 

[besada]

Nicest people ever?

Pretty much my experience as well. Maybe someone can answer this: Is it just my Mormon family that doesn't express emotions, or is that a cultural trait.

One of the biggest problems in my marriage has been my wife's inability to tell me when she's upset or angry, because she was raised in a family full of people who never discussed their feelings. I've always wondered if I should blame the church, or just the dour folk who raised her dad.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

You must've known as you typed this up that I'd call you out on this. Plenty of people that were freaked out were "plenty prepared". I had read the book and attended the classes. It's not entirely fair to say if someone got freaked out it was because they just weren't ready.

I was talking about the same thing about how the endowment freaked me out to my sister in law and she said that it was the same for her but she kept on doing it until she was comfortable with it. I got in trouble when I replied "This is religion and salvation, not anal sex."

While the temple stuff is strange and different It was a lot more tame then some of the stuff I thought was going to happen, maybe I have a wild imagination. I actually got my endowments on the same day as my wife since I did not serve a mission and having my partner there was a great experience and while I left thinking WTF? I still was really moved by the entire thing.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

And technically pre mid 80s it was given on threat of death. You promised to cut your own throat and pull your tongue out. No longer. But it was there.

Sure, but it was never enforced or expected. I think it was more to hammer home the seriousness of it all. The seriousness of it hasn't changed, but the language has.

 

[Westonian]

You must've known as you typed this up that I'd call you out on this. Plenty of people that were freaked out were "plenty prepared". I had read the book and attended the classes. It's not entirely fair to say if someone got freaked out it was because they just weren't ready.

I was talking about the same thing about how the endowment freaked me out to my sister in law and she said that it was the same for her but she kept on doing it until she was comfortable with it. I got in trouble when I replied "This is religion and salvation, not anal sex."

And technically pre mid 80s it was given on threat of death. You promised to cut your own throat and pull your tongue out. No longer. But it was there.

I would say it also has a lot to do with culture. My family members who were raised Catholic and converted had no such experience when going to the Temple the first time, because the concept of ritualistic worship was something they were very familiar with. A Catholic Mass has many rituals, where phrases are repeated by the congregation, they rise and sit in unison, etc. For a Mormon whose sole church going experience to that point is the very vanilla LDS sacrament meeting, the rituals performed in the Temple are incredibly alien.

When I left the Temple after my first time, my thought was, "Now I know why some people think we're a cult." But it wasn't off putting. In fact, the thing I missed most during my mission was not being able to go to the Temple. I am a Temple Worker now and I love the spirit and calm I feel there. It's like nothing else on Earth.

 

[Westonian]

Pretty much my experience as well. Maybe someone can answer this: Is it just my Mormon family that doesn't express emotions, or is that a cultural trait.

One of the biggest problems in my marriage has been my wife's inability to tell me when she's upset or angry, because she was raised in a family full of people who never discussed their feelings. I've always wondered if I should blame the church, or just the dour folk who raised her dad.

Definitely your wife's family. My family is the same way. I like to brood and clam up when I'm upset. My wife's family is the opposite. Very loud and extroverted. It should be noted that my wife's family is old Mormon (tracing their membership back to the Joseph Smith days) and my family is 1st and 2nd generation converts.

 

[besada]

Definitely your wife's family. My family is the same way. I like to brood and clam up when I'm upset. My wife's family is the opposite. Very loud and extroverted. It should be noted that my wife's family is old Mormon (tracing their membership back to the Joseph Smith days) and my family is 1st and 2nd generation converts.

I figured it was just them. Her dad was raised by dour Utah Mormons who lived out in the wilderness. He's a great guy, but wouldn't know what to do with an emotion if he stumbled on one.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Pretty much my experience as well. Maybe someone can answer this: Is it just my Mormon family that doesn't express emotions, or is that a cultural trait.

One of the biggest problems in my marriage has been my wife's inability to tell me when she's upset or angry, because she was raised in a family full of people who never discussed their feelings. I've always wondered if I should blame the church, or just the dour folk who raised her dad.

Well, that's going to depend on parental style, not on the religion. My wife's family never talked about anything, and they all have this thing where they pretend problems aren't problems until they either go away or become impossible to resolve so they just deal with it. My family has always been really open about things, and it's just the way our parents differed in raising us.

As far as outbursts and such, that is discouraged by LDS leaders. They generally encourage to handle things with a quiet calm. It's not a sin, but it's advised to not shout or yell when upset as it diminishes effective communication.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

If I get into Celestial heaven, will I get the opportunity to populate my very own planet!?

Ok, so I'm not crazy I did hear this somewhere before.

 

[ronito]

Well what's the dogmatic reason beyond the changes or is it just PR? Do they give a line like "God spoke to our high priest (or what your hierarchy is) and he realized that this shit won't fly these days" or is it more of a wink and a nudge and a "I have no idea what you're talking about, this is how it always was"?

I mean, I don't have a problem with Mormons other than that one time a couple of them offered to help me cut ice one night a number of winters ago. Scared the crap out of me, thought they were gonna try and mug me right outside my own home, inner city Jersey and all . Either way, the theology being such a tremendous train wreck, I don't think I'll ever be able to seriously look at Mormonism on a religious level. You're welcome to believe what you like, and you could definitely do worse, I'm just trying to get a clearer understanding so that I don't overstep my knowledge and say something uncharitable and ultimately stupid like many so called "academics" do about Catholicism.

Closer to the wink and the nudge sort of thing. Most mormons don't even know there was a change and when they do make changes they do so "for the sake of clarity". It's not widely publicized and certainly not generally talked about.

I'm interested in the idea that mormon theology is a train wreck. How so? GhaleonQ also called it amatuer theology. But really I don't see the difference between the mormon silliness and other religion silliness. As CS Lewis said theology is largely conjecture. I tend to agree.

 

[Zerokku]

So for the other exmormons here, has anyone read "No man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie? What did you think of it?

 

[Kodiak690]

family..... isn't it about, time?

(those are the only mormon commercials i know of).

HOLY SHIT, they got high budget since the last time i saw one of these commercials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h1V0oJRyCc

I love the ultra hot wife. Why don't they show a typical mormon woman whose body is wrecked after giving birth to six children.

 

[SolidC213]

What are baptisms for the dead? Don't know if it had been discussed already but what is it exactly? Do they get baptized in place of people who have passed and not had the chance to get baptized while they were alive? Do they believe unbaptized spirits are waiting in the Mormon equivalent of purgatory until a live person baptizes themselves in their name?

Also I had a Mormon girlfriend in high school who was very religious. We were "in love" and would tell each other everything. I remember her telling me that after I died, if someone is handing out numbers I should not take one. I can't remember how she worded it exactly (it was about 8 years ago) but the gist of it was that there might be someone handing out numbers (or something I can't really remember) and warned me not to take one lol. Is this a Mormon thing or was she just crazy lol.

 

[samus i am]

So I saw something on TV about 4 or 5 years ago that I thought was kind of messed up. A guy was dating a Mormon and converted to their faith to be with her. When it came time to get married his side of the family was not allowed to attend the wedding ceremony. This caused a lot of pain and hurt feelings on his family's side. Is this still true today? Why was this done?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

What are baptisms for the dead? Don't know if it had been discussed already but what is it exactly? Do they get baptized in place of people who have passed and not had the chance to get baptized while they were alive? Do they believe unbaptized spirits are waiting in the Mormon equivalent of purgatory until a live person baptizes themselves in their name?

That's the gist of it. Someone goes to the temple and is baptized in the name of someone who is deceased. We believe that all who die enter a spirit world and await the resurrection after Christ's second coming. During that waiting period those that have the gospel teach it to those that don't have it. If they accept the gospel and baptism, then their proxy baptism is valid. The dead also have temple ordinances done for them.

The idea is that it gives everybody a chance to receive the gospel, so nobody is damned for being born in a situation where it was never presented to them in life. Also, it gives members of the church opportunity to serve their fellow man, even after they have passed on. It's very much encouraged that members do their own genealogy and to perform temple work in their behalf if it hasn't already been done.

Also I had a Mormon girlfriend in high school who was very religious. We were "in love" and would tell each other everything. I remember her telling me that after I died, if someone is handing out numbers I should not take one. I can't remember how she worded it exactly (it was about 8 years ago) but the gist of it was that there might be someone handing out numbers (or something I can't really remember) and warned me not to take one lol. Is this a Mormon thing or was she just crazy lol.

Never heard of this and have no idea what she's referring to.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I love the ultra hot wife. Why don't they show a typical mormon woman whose body is wrecked after giving birth to six children.

Mormon girls are hotter. Sorry, it's just true.

 

[SolidC213]

So I saw something on TV about 4 or 5 years ago that I thought was kind of messed up. A guy was dating a Mormon and converted to their faith to be with her. When it came time to get married his side of the family was not allowed to attend the wedding ceremony. This caused a lot of pain and hurt feelings on his family's side. Is this still true today? Why was this done?

If they were married in the "Temple" I don't think anyone can attend it except the couple about to marry. Everyone else waits outside the temple or something. Honestly I have heard some strange rituals happen in their that no one can talk about or they will be excommunicated. I am not Mormon so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

If they were married in the "Temple" I don't think anyone can attend it except the couple about to marry. Everyone else waits outside the temple or something. Honestly I have heard some strange rituals happen in their that no one can talk about or they will be excommunicated. I am not Mormon so take this with a grain of salt.

Anybody with a temple recommend can attend. To get a recommend you need to meet with your bishop and stake president (bishops preside over wards, which are like congregations, and stake presidents preside over stakes, which are like diocese). Getting the recommend allows you to enter the temple and be present for any of those things. The temple is only for members in good standing as it's a very sacred place.

Stuff they ask in the recommend interview includes whether or not you've been following the Word of Wisdom (no tea, tobacco, alcohol, etc.), if you're maintaining your marital covenants, if you're affiliated with any organizations that are contrary to the church, if you have unresolved sins that would prevent you from being worthy, and if you have been honest with your fellow man.

 

[Kodiak690]

Mormon girls are hotter. Sorry, it's just true.

I live in Salt Lake. There are plenty of hot younger girls. But it doesn't last. I've literally witnessed attractive girls I went to high school with go from hot to over-weight after marrying and having several kids. Yes, the younger girls can be quite attractive, but how many ultra-hot older women do you see? Not many.

It just is another way the morons try to put this "life is perfect" facade over everything they do. I'm not trying to troll, it's just how I, and many others, feel. It's nauseating after growing up around it.

 

[ronito]

Also I had a Mormon girlfriend in high school who was very religious. We were "in love" and would tell each other everything. I remember her telling me that after I died, if someone is handing out numbers I should not take one. I can't remember how she worded it exactly (it was about 8 years ago) but the gist of it was that there might be someone handing out numbers (or something I can't really remember) and warned me not to take one lol. Is this a Mormon thing or was she just crazy lol.

Yeah, she's just crazy.

To be fair Mormonism is fraught with all kinds of folklore and stuff like that. She probably was just repeating some folklore that she heard in church or something.

So I saw something on TV about 4 or 5 years ago that I thought was kind of messed up. A guy was dating a Mormon and converted to their faith to be with her. When it came time to get married his side of the family was not allowed to attend the wedding ceremony. This caused a lot of pain and hurt feelings on his family's side. Is this still true today? Why was this done?

Yeah only mormons in good standing (IE: You pay your tithing, attend your meetings, haven't committed any major sins and have a temple recommend) can go. So yeah I agree. Very sad. It's especially sad when someone that is mormon can't attend because they fell behind on tithing or something like that.

Mormon girls are hotter. Sorry, it's just true.

Damn straight!

 

[06nbarnhill]

Technically I am pretty sure I am Mormon

Havn't been to church in years but my family is pretty dedicated to Mormonism so I guess I will check into this thread,

 

[Barrett2]

So for the other exmormons here, has anyone read "No man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie? What did you think of it?

I read part of it. IMO, what makes the book interesting is the circumstances around the book, since it was written by David O. McKay's niece. IIRC, she used her access to get documents for her research, and then wrote a scathing portrayal of Joseph Smith. You can find better books to read that cover the same material. Mormon America is a very good all purpose LDS history / info book.

 

[LosDaddie]

Is there any type of general consensus on Mitt Romney among mormons?

 

[Yoritomo]

The Book of Mormon narrative is inherently racist and the Mormon church was really late to the civil rights bandwagon, although from the late 70s on they've gradually put it behind them.


What's classic is a mormon walking into a mormon-run establishment demanding the "mormon discount".

1978 proclamation allowing blacks the priesthood was a straight up retcon. They didn't come out and say god has changed they came out and said it was as if the restriction never existed...

The church does itself a disservice by not allowing more scrutiny into historical and doctrinal evolution of belief.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Is there any type of general consensus on Mitt Romney among mormons?

I am LDS and I can't stand the guys politics, but I am pretty liberal.

 

[Yoritomo]

Is there any type of general consensus on Mitt Romney among mormons?

Sadly, Utah Mormons seems to adore him. He had 97% of the vote in the Republican primaries.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Is there any type of general consensus on Mitt Romney among mormons?

Like any political candidate some love him, some don't. Some might like him because he's Mormon, but it generally boils down to politics. My wife's family is very pro-Democrat, so they'd not vote for him.

 

[ronito]

I've found that when talking to a Mormon it's not what party do you belong to as much as it is "How republican are you?" There are a few Mormon Democrats. I was one, but honestly mormons would ask "How can you be democrat and mormon?!"

About Mitt I think most like him. Some don't.
He's a little greasy even for mormons.

Funny story though, I remember hearing in church how Satan was the reason why Romney lost in a prayer.
I had to chortle.

 

[Yoritomo]

I think it would be highly educational to get it out in the open (from a GAF member), as long as we're all respectful in response.

I'm just genuinely curious.

Basically it's like a graduation/coming of age ceremony you see somewhere else. Vestments are close to being the same (cap and gown), flat cap to prepare to receive a crown for the men and a veil for the women.

I think it's the clothes that freak people out the most. Odd because no one questions wearing cap and gown in a graduation, swapping your tassel, or wearing other vestments to signify academic achievement.

Anyway you basically watch (either live or a video) a story of the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve as a analogy to yourself. You learn the meaning of the garment (magic underwear) that it's symbolic of the atonement of Christ (it ain't magic armor). You then make some promises and receive a series of symbols which you promise not to reveal. The subtext being that western human contact and greeting is an offshoot of these first symbols that were given to Adam. It's all very masonic. Then you're tested on what you've learned and enter the final room in the temple (celestial room) and are able to think about what you've seen/relax/quietly discuss etc.

Anyway mormons generally view the ceremony as the initial ritual given to Adam from which altered versions permeate most every coming of age/graduation/induction ceremony everywhere. You can find most of what I've said in mormon magazines. Pictures of all the rooms in the temple can also be found. Prior to the temple dedication it's just a building so there are pictures of celestial rooms, sealing rooms, etc etc published by the church.

 

[Westonian]

So for the other exmormons here, has anyone read "No man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie? What did you think of it?

The problem with Brodie isn't her history, it's her pseudo-psychological inferences. She makes pretty amazing leaps into what Joseph Smith's motives and thought processes were based on what appears to be her cliff notes understanding of Freudian psychology. They actually coined the term "pyschobiography" for No Man. The amazing thing is she was heaped with praises for her biography of Smith, but when she did the same thing to Thomas Jefferson, real historians justifiably criticized her impossible conclusions.

Nibley's, "No Ma'am, That's Not History" is a pretty well researched rebuttal to Brodie's methods: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=47

There are much better biographies of Smith if you're interested in straight history and not conjecture.

 

[Patryn]

Is there any type of general consensus on Mitt Romney among mormons?

I think they like him, but I'm not the best person to ask, as I was in the ward his parents, brother and sister were in.

Frankly, the whole family has this weird air of constantly being a politician at all times. Except his sister, who is one of the sweetest people I have ever met.

 

[LosDaddie]

Sadly, Utah Mormons seems to adore him. He had 97% of the vote in the Republican primaries.

I wonder what his support was among Mormons when he was the Mass. gov. Is there any data on that? The guy was fairly centrist back then.

I was one, but honestly mormons would ask "How can you be democrat and mormon?!"

I've been asked the same (changing out Christian with Mormon, of course). My in-laws had the most puzzled look on their face when they realized I'm not Culture Warrior like them. :lol

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I know Mitt's son well. We served our missions together in Chile. I remember the night before flying back to the Statest, Mitt's campaign manager called to see if he would be ok having a camera crew at the airport. Needless to say that was shot down right away.

 

[Yoritomo]

Hell, James E Faust (Member of the first presidency) used to be chair of the Utah State Democratic party

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Harry Reid is LDS...

 

[hellclerk]

Closer to the wink and the nudge sort of thing. Most mormons don't even know there was a change and when they do make changes they do so "for the sake of clarity". It's not widely publicized and certainly not generally talked about.

I'm interested in the idea that mormon theology is a train wreck. How so? GhaleonQ also called it amatuer theology. But really I don't see the difference between the mormon silliness and other religion silliness. As CS Lewis said theology is largely conjecture. I tend to agree.

The issue is with the scripture. While Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant theologies are all different, what's the same is that it's all based on the same standardized Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts. The only changes that have existed in the text since their initial drafts have been the result of oral tradition and miscopying, not political convenience. Conjecture of primary revelation sources is one thing, but to CHANGE that primary revelation so that your conjecture can change on the convenience of political climate is frankly amateur. It's about understanding the words God gave us through an imperfect method, i.e., divine inspiration, not dictation. The Book of Mormon was written through what was essentially divine dictation. To go back on that and change it is poor theology as it were. Catholics don't DENY Leviticus, they put it into the context of the people writing it (people, not God). On the same line, Mormons, through editing out politically incorrect sections undermine their theology because there's no accountability to the text since it changes so often, no matter how simply. Yes, theology is largely conjecture, but there's nothing to conject if the text is not reliable. That's why the policy of changing what's inconvenient with a wink and a nudge is poor theology.

 

[Yoritomo]

I'm interested in the idea that mormon theology is a train wreck. How so?

Brigham Young