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[ronito]

I still don't understand the "secrecy" around it or the (ex) members' relunctance to talk about it. Maybe shedding some light on that would be helpful rather than sharing sordid details about the ceremony.

In the endowment you're taught the signs necessary to enter heaven. As such divulging them and what happens puts your salvation in jeopardy.

Really though it can be traced back to the masonic origins. But essentially you're told that divulging the secrets of the endowment is amongst the worst thing you can do. And there used to be a blood oath involved which they took out in the 80s. But yeah it's serious business.

As to Big Love. Most don't watch it. I remember a letter being read in church when it came out that said not to talk about it and stuff. But that's it.

I, of course, did watch it until the lame-o fifth season. It was really eerie. Outside of the polygamy and the fundie sect a lot of the stuff was very "mormony". They used the same phrases, wore the same close, did the same things. So from that point I thought it was very well researched. And when they did the endowment ceremony that too was very well researched. Any mormon would be able to tell readily one of the writers used to be mormon.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I grew up with several really good friends that were Mormon and my school was predominately Mormon. The majority of them were high caliber individuals. I think the religion is good for a lot of the morality lessons but I was always kind of shocked how little any of them knew about the bible. They make a lot of claims about Jesus being where the majority of their faith relies but I always found they really knew very little about him. The further you get away from Utah members feel like they belong more to a social club than a actual religion. That being said I again think they are really good people with some somewhat odd belief systems.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Mormons & Jehovah Witnesses, why the door to door evangelizing? It's fucking annoying.

 

[Shalashaska]

Almost as annoying as people asking questions that have already been answered?

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Almost as annoying as people asking questions that have already been answered?

Ha, sorry. Just asked my question... will read the thread...

edit: and done. good read. keep it up.

 

[ACESandEIGHTS]

But yeah it's serious business.

Would the Mormons be open to a rumble with the Knights of Columbus? We could use Bonneville, there's not much going on there usually.

But seriously now, it's interesting to know the secrecy is taken very seriously, like guarded with threats of the pains of hell. Wow. That explains why I never get very far with questions.

Here's a serious question though: Why so serious? I have a buddy that probably knows it all, but divulges very little, and cares to acknowledge it even less. If someone mentions the fact that he's Mormon, or--God forbid--makes a Mormon joke, his hackles are raised for hours. He's got this kind of guilty self-loathing thing going on too, like he sorta can't live with his church and he can't stand himself for abandoning it.

 

[Tron 2.0]

Part of the reason for the secrecy is that, to many outside observers, the endowment ceremony is incredibly bizarre.

It's like how in Scientology, the Xenu stuff is only for those who have proven faithful.

BUT, just to be extremely clear, I am not equating Mormonism with Scientology. At all.

 

[ronito]

Would the Mormons be open to a rumble with the Knights of Columbus? We could use Bonneville, there's not much going on there usually.

But seriously now, it's interesting to know the secrecy is taken very seriously, like guarded with threats of the pains of hell. Wow. That explains why I never get very far with questions.

Here's a serious question though: Why so serious? I have a buddy that probably knows it all, but divulges very little, and cares to acknowledge it even less. If someone mentions the fact that he's Mormon, or--God forbid--makes a Mormon joke, his hackles are raised for hours. He's got this kind of guilty self-loathing thing going on too, like he sorta can't live with his church and he can't stand himself for abandoning it.

It's certainly different per person but I think it's a bit of a self-defense mechanism.
They expect to be ridiculed or become a conversion project for some baptist. So that's why some people are stand-offish.

Others know that some mormons have made it difficult for others. For example when someone found out I was mormon they exclaimed "But you're so cool!"

And I suspect others secretly know they believe some really crazy things. And as you've seen in this thread mormons seem just as likely to be freaked out by all that stuff as they are to be accepting of it.

 

[Instigator]

In the endowment you're taught the signs necessary to enter heaven. As such divulging them and what happens puts your salvation in jeopardy.

Really though it can be traced back to the masonic origins. But essentially you're told that divulging the secrets of the endowment is amongst the worst thing you can do. And there used to be a blood oath involved which they took out in the 80s. But yeah it's serious business.

Why would you need a secret handshake to enter heaven?

 

[Manmademan]

Man, and I thought I knew a decent amount about the mormon religion. Not trolling or anything but there's some really crazy stuff here.

 

[elrechazado]

South Park had a great take. May believe some things you find crazy, but they are among the nicest most decent people you'll ever meet.

 

[Hitokage]

Yes but they are no different then a pair of boxer shorts and a under shirt

Sorry, you're completely wrong.

Boxer shorts and undershirts are comfortable.

 

[Commodore]

Sorry, you're completely wrong.

Boxer shorts and undershirts are comfortable.

Heh, as underwear goes, they do me just fine. Overstating it I think. Plus you've got a few different options as far as material.

 

[Hitokage]

*shrug*

I hated them when I tried wearing them, and I'm usually not too fussy about undergarments.

 

[elrechazado]

*shrug*

I hated them when I tried wearing them, and I'm usually not too fussy about undergarments.

I for one am shocked based on this thread that you hate anything mormon related.

 

[Hitokage]

I for one am shocked based on this thread that you hate anything mormon related.

This and that aren't really related.

 

[ronito]

not much support for the "spirit children" in garments. If you catch my drift.

 

[Meatfist]

South Park had a great take. May believe some things you find crazy, but they are among the nicest most decent people you'll ever meet.

This. I had a Mormon best friend when I was a child and he was one of the nicest dudes I know. There was always little "mormonisms" he showed me that I found pretty interesting, such as the massive emergency stash, the "sealed" plates in the Book of Mormon (we finally pryed them open to be disappointed nothing was there), the undergarments and no chores on Sunday. He also claimed Mormons loved Fresca, I don't know if there's any validity to that but they had cases of the stuff

say what you want about their beliefs, but they're some of the friendliest people out there.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

*shrug*

I hated them when I tried wearing them, and I'm usually not too fussy about undergarments.

Gotta get the right materials, but when you find what you like, they're better than anything. I always wore an undershirt before, anyhow.

 

[exwallst]

Why are they anti-homosexual? And if it's a "God says" type of thing, why did they hide their efforts in prop 8? I admired BYU for sticking to their honor code in basketball, I would have expected a lot more of the same for something that really mattered.

 

[Shanadeus]

I asked this before but I don't think it got answered:

Can women marry multiple men?
With that I also kinda wonder if there are "modern" re-interpretations of the Mormon rulebook that might allow the above (as it seems that it's okay for men to marry multiple women, but I might be in the wrong about that)

With a "modern" re-interpretation I mean, as an example, the way christians in many secular European countries have resigned from following the bible point by point and are instead embracing the most important teachings Jesus came up with (love, love and love.)

 

[Hitokage]

I asked this before but I don't think it got answered:

Can women marry multiple men?
With that I also kinda wonder if there are "modern" re-interpretations of the Mormon rulebook that might allow the above (as it seems that it's okay for men to marry multiple women, but I might be in the wrong about that)

There were reported examples of polyandry in the pre-Utah church, but that's the extent of it.

 

[ronito]

I asked this before but I don't think it got answered:

Can women marry multiple men?
With that I also kinda wonder if there are "modern" re-interpretations of the Mormon rulebook that might allow the above (as it seems that it's okay for men to marry multiple women, but I might be in the wrong about that)

With a "modern" re-interpretation I mean, as an example, the way christians in many secular European countries have resigned from following the bible point by point and are instead embracing the most important teachings Jesus came up with (love, love and love.)

Not necessarily open for much re-interpretation.
It comes down to "Priesthood authority". Only men are allowed to hold the priesthood. In fact, a woman cannot save herself in the afterlife, it's her husband that does it and she can't hold the priesthood either, she is only allowed to get the benefits of the priesthood through their husbands or fathers. The church says that men need women as much as women need men, and certainly that's true. A man can't gain the highest level of salvation without a wife. However, a man needs at least one woman, a woman must have only one man.

As Hito pointed out there were a few records of polyandry in the early days of the church. But those were by far the exception and not the rule. So no. I don't expect them to ever change it from a male based system to go both ways.

 

[Commodore]

Not necessarily open for much re-interpretation.
It comes down to "Priesthood authority". Only men are allowed to hold the priesthood. In fact, a woman cannot save herself in the afterlife, it's her husband that does it and she can't hold the priesthood either, she is only allowed to get the benefits of the priesthood through their husbands or fathers. The church says that men need women as much as women need men, and certainly that's true. A man can't gain the highest level of salvation without a wife. However, a man needs at least one woman, a woman must have only one man.

As Hito pointed out there were a few records of polyandry in the early days of the church. But those were by far the exception and not the rule. So no. I don't expect them to ever change it from a male based system to go both ways.

Plus as far as function, when a man who holds the priesthood uses it, (prayers, blessings, baptism etc) it is solely used as the betterment to the recipient. Holding the priesthood isn't really something that implies authority over someone, more so service toward an individual.

In my own experience, the men in the church often need to learn selflessness more than the women. Myself included.

 

[ronito]

Why are they anti-homosexual? And if it's a "God says" type of thing, why did they hide their efforts in prop 8? I admired BYU for sticking to their honor code in basketball, I would have expected a lot more of the same for something that really mattered.

To be honest I think it comes down to what happens in the temple. As previously stated, to attain the highest level of salvation a man and woman must be married. This is heavily integrated in the mormon doctrine and can't be extricated.

So I believe their fear is that if gays are allowed to marry, then it's possible that some day they'll sue the mormon church for not allowing them to marry in the temple. And the church would either have to comply or lose their tax exempt status (it should be noted that in parts of England the church has already lost their tax exemption though not because its stance on gays but because the temple is exclusionary even of members). The church does not want to deal with that mess.

Further there is plenty of stuff out there said by mormon scripture and leaders against homosexuality. That doesn't mean they have to go out and be all Westboro Baptist about it. As to hiding their involvement of Prop 8. You have to understand that the church has been preparing for a while for Prop 8. The prior prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, was a church PR man before getting to the leadership of the church. PR indeed is the calling card of his presidency. In documents about when something like Prop 8 happened he had called out that the church should be supportive but not a forerunner if possible lest there be backlash.

The church as a culture is further wary of outsiders. Given its history and the geographical conglomeration it's not necessarily surprising. First they were wary against blacks, then catholics, then mixed race couples, now it's gays and muslims. Now that doesn't come entirely from leadersihp. Some fires they add kindling to and others they don't. But I tend to find that the culture tends to view the world as filthy and bad (Be in the world not of the world) and that they are constantly under attack from the filthy bad world.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Checking in, sort of late. I grew up in Utah County and was sort-of raised Mormon. I still have lots of family and friends who are. My parents weren't active, but everybody I knew was, and I was brought to church by grandparents and groups I was part of now and then. I never found anything in the church's doctrine that I could agree with, and seeing the intolerance and groupthink that many Utah Mormons displayed put me off the idea of ever reconciling with the religion. I have a lot of self-loathing still kicking around from having grown up in the culture, and I still hardly ever swear around other people, but having moved to Salt Lake and then New York, I'm working hard at undoing my conditioning.

Yes, Utah is full of nice, caring people, yes, non-Utah Mormons are much more chill about things, and no, intolerance/groupthink are not exclusive to one group. But it's hard for me to separate Mormonism from conservative Utah culture, so I prefer to put it behind me and avoid it when I can.

 

[diehard]

You're working hard at swearing around people? Uhhh ok.

 

[radios shipping overview]

You're working hard at swearing around people? Uhhh ok.

Heh, no, I never said that I was. I'm just letting my hair down a little more than I used to.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

saw this and thought of this thread.. kind of funny

 

[elrechazado]

Why are they anti-homosexual? And if it's a "God says" type of thing, why did they hide their efforts in prop 8? I admired BYU for sticking to their honor code in basketball, I would have expected a lot more of the same for something that really mattered.

What did they hide? Top church leaders issued public pronouncements on the church's stance and urged their members to speak out on the issue. Anyone who cared at all about prop 8 knew about and still knows this, hence the outrage in some groups over the church's actions in prop 8.

 

[exwallst]

They had to be sued in federal court to disclose the amount of their contributions. I understand the pain of losing tax exempt status but what's the difference between that and NCAA basketball games? Shouldn't god's work require a higher standard of disclosure?

 

[Shanadeus]

Not necessarily open for much re-interpretation.
It comes down to "Priesthood authority". Only men are allowed to hold the priesthood. In fact, a woman cannot save herself in the afterlife, it's her husband that does it and she can't hold the priesthood either, she is only allowed to get the benefits of the priesthood through their husbands or fathers. The church says that men need women as much as women need men, and certainly that's true. A man can't gain the highest level of salvation without a wife. However, a man needs at least one woman, a woman must have only one man.

As Hito pointed out there were a few records of polyandry in the early days of the church. But those were by far the exception and not the rule. So no. I don't expect them to ever change it from a male based system to go both ways.

Thanks to both of you.
It's certainly interesting that a woman cannot save herself (at all I presume) without a husband while men on the other hand can gain some kind of salvation without a wife.
I can see how such a system might be more supportive of polygyny than polyandry.

Is anyone here an "active" and believing mormon?

 

[elrechazado]

They had to be sued in federal court to disclose the amount of their contributions. I understand the pain of losing tax exempt status but what's the difference between that and NCAA basketball games? Shouldn't god's work require a higher standard of disclosure?

Uhh, no they didn't. The donor list itself was the subject of a lawsuit (brought by the donors btw, and not by the church itself at all). But I guess because some people who donated were mormons, it was that church that got sued? You evidently have zero idea what happened with that, but your mental filter has interpreted it as "mormons got sued". Also, tax exempt status? Wtf are you talking about?

Thanks to both of you.
It's certainly interesting that a woman cannot save herself (at all I presume) without a husband while men on the other hand can gain some kind of salvation without a wife.
I can see how such a system might be more supportive of polygyny than polyandry.

Is anyone here an "active" and believing mormon?

I'm not sure, but from what I've read, men are not given the highest salvation either if they don't marry a wife, so I think you're wrong there. One of the mormons can answer though, there are many evidently active (and not active) mormons in the thread who will know.

 

[Incendiary]

Thanks to both of you.
It's certainly interesting that a woman cannot save herself (at all I presume) without a husband while men on the other hand can gain some kind of salvation without a wife.
I can see how such a system might be more supportive of polygyny than polyandry.

The Mormon belief system is very patriarch-centric, and that was really one of the reasons my beliefs and foundation in the church wasn't as strong as others when I was growing up. My father was not a member but my mother was, so I didn't get the reinforcement of a patriarch with the priesthood at home by my dad, I just heard about it from the fathers of the other kids I grew up with.

The idea, as far as I can remember or as far as I understood, is that there are levels of heaven. Regardless of gender if you aren't married and sealed in the temple you aren't going to make it to the highest level. Even breaking it down by level, I'm fairly certain there isn't a clause where females can only reach X level by themselves while males can reach Y level by themselves. It's more what you do within the religion and your faith.

 

[Commodore]

Thanks to both of you.
It's certainly interesting that a woman cannot save herself (at all I presume) without a husband while men on the other hand can gain some kind of salvation without a wife.
I can see how such a system might be more supportive of polygyny than polyandry.

Is anyone here an "active" and believing mormon?

Active Mormon here. I can't obtain the highest level without my wife and vice versa. You can't get to the celestial kingdom without bringing those you love the most along. I personally think it's a definite bonus. Leaves an indellible impression on the way i view my marriage too.

 

[Ecce]

saw this and thought of this thread.. kind of funny

Active member and former missionary. I LOL'd. When I was on my mission I had women hitting on me all the time (especially women aged 28-40), but I didn't need Axe body spray. There is something about innocent/virile/clean cut teenagers that drives 30-something women wild.

 

[ronito]

Thanks to both of you.
It's certainly interesting that a woman cannot save herself (at all I presume) without a husband while men on the other hand can gain some kind of salvation without a wife.
I can see how such a system might be more supportive of polygyny than polyandry.

Is anyone here an "active" and believing mormon?

Certainly didn't mean to make it seem like a man can save himself either. The point was that a man can do it with several women, while a woman can only be sealed to one man. It is certainly true that men can't make it without women and women can't make it without a man. The main point was that this belief is tied up in the priesthood, which only men can hold therefore that's the reason as to why you don't see polyandry.

 

[exwallst]

I must have confused my facts about the federal lawsuits. What caused them to be fined for failing to disclose the extent of their involvement in prop 8? And the tax exempt comment was to the earlier explanation that they would lose their tax exempt status for not agreeing to marry homosexuals (and that argument seems very spurious, btw). Assuming that were true, BYU basketball would have had me expect them to do what they thought god told them to do, regardless of tax consequences (unless the story is that god told them to be mindful of tax treatment, having changed his mind on the whole 'render unto Caesar,' and whatnot).

 

[elrechazado]

I must have confused my facts about the federal lawsuits. What caused them to be fined for failing to disclose the extent of their involvement in prop 8? .

Nothing caused this, because this never happened, which is what I'm telling you.

 

[exwallst]

Well that's not exactly true: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...6/mormon_church_pays_fine_in_prop_8_case.html
But, practically, it is true because if it was only a $5K fine, who cares. I'd still like to know how, why that happened but I'm more curious to know why the Mormon church is anti-homosexual. They can't really believe the U.S. or Californian government will force them to marry homosexuals, can they?
I don't know what to think about their using other churches and PACs as meat shields to make a more effective political move. In a way, it's very savvy; in another, I naively think churches should have a higher standard of conduct.

 

[btkadams]

Well that's not exactly true: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...6/mormon_church_pays_fine_in_prop_8_case.html
But, practically, it is true because if it was only a $5K fine, who cares. I'd still like to know how, why that happened but I'm more curious to know why the Mormon church is anti-homosexual. They can't really believe the U.S. or Californian government will force them to marry homosexuals, can they?
I don't know what to think about their using other churches and PACs as meat shields to make a more effective political move. In a way, it's very savvy; in another, I naively think churches should have a higher standard of conduct.

my mormon friend does. that was her defence of prop 8.

 

[Stinkles]

my mormon friend does. that was her defence of prop 8.

She should just accept the future and choose Turbo or Lipstick.

 

[bluemax]

Well that's not exactly true: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...6/mormon_church_pays_fine_in_prop_8_case.html
But, practically, it is true because if it was only a $5K fine, who cares. I'd still like to know how, why that happened but I'm more curious to know why the Mormon church is anti-homosexual. They can't really believe the U.S. or Californian government will force them to marry homosexuals, can they?
I don't know what to think about their using other churches and PACs as meat shields to make a more effective political move. In a way, it's very savvy; in another, I naively think churches should have a higher standard of conduct.

Because to the LDS church marriage is one of the most sacred things a person can do. When they marry they believe it to be for time and all eternity. The other half of marriage for them is procreation. They believe that making babies is also a sacred duty, creating life is the closest we can be to gods in this mortal existence, so the fact that homosexuals aren't having babies kind of flies in the face of god's divine plan.

Also there's all the usual old testament reasons that every other major Christian religion uses to justify it.

 

[exwallst]

Yes but why do they chose to rally, politically, against homosexuality and not any of the many other things various people use the bible to justify? Why did they use electro shock therapy to 'cure' them?

 

[ronito]

Yes but why do they chose to rally, politically, against homosexuality and not any of the many other things various people use the bible to justify? Why did they use electro shock therapy to 'cure' them?

Why does any religion rally against an outside force? Why do some gafers rail against the ponies? You've been given the doctrinal and even some historical reasons. Sadly there's not going to be an answer that will make sense.

 

[Barbacoatl]

If you ever find yourself in Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico, make sure to stop by Elmer's joint. Best cochinita pibil of all Telestial Kingdom.

 

[exwallst]

Sadly there's not going to be an answer that will make sense.

Fair enough. Thanks for your replies. Are Mormons generally proud and supportive of their leaders? Do they agree that protecting their tax exempt status in the U.S. justified the behavior?

 

[Shanadeus]

Certainly didn't mean to make it seem like a man can save himself either. The point was that a man can do it with several women, while a woman can only be sealed to one man. It is certainly true that men can't make it without women and women can't make it without a man. The main point was that this belief is tied up in the priesthood, which only men can hold therefore that's the reason as to why you don't see polyandry.

Must have misinterpreted you a bit then as others kinda hinted at.

But just to make it clear, a man cannot without a woman reach a higher "level" of salvation than a woman without a man?

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Must have misinterpreted you a bit then as others kinda hinted at.

But just to make it clear, a man cannot without a woman reach a higher "level" of salvation than a woman without a man?

this is correct.

 

[btkadams]

are mormons allowed to gamble?