Support NeoGAF

[ronito]

I know it was already apparent but at least we know who is continuing the Hardass doctrinaire tradition.

Where's a Hugh B Brown when you need him?

of course it's the German

 

[mik]

Can I still hie to Kolob?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/mormons-people-planets-afterlife-22703298

 

[Laurentius]

Okay, first of all:

While few Latter-day Saints would identify with caricatures of having their own planet..

Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on this one.

However, I will grant them that most Mormons don't see it in the "get a planet" kind of mindset that non Mormons seem to think. Which, incidentally, is pretty well highlighted in the continuation of that sentence:

...most would agree that the awe inspired by creation hints at our creative potential in the eternities

In my experience, Mormons generally didn't believe "I get a planet after I die!" but, "If I get to the top tier of the celestial kingdom, I will become a god with limitless planets!". As far as I ever knew, the doctrine was all about becoming gods, and not "getting a planet". This article very clearly glosses over that for non Mormons, while seeming to be a sly wink towards members.

I haven't been able to stomach the entire lds.org article yet, but so much of it seems like double speak.

 

[ronito]

Can I still hie to Kolob?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/mormons-people-planets-afterlife-22703298

See?! SEE?! This is the shit I keep on bringing up when I say that mormons don't know what they believe anymore. I always get , "Well I don't see anyone who is confused."

This is a great example. That article reads more like a legal brief than an article clarifying stuff. It clarifies nothing.

The whole article is like "Do more mormons get their own planet?"

 

[Laurentius]

This is the shit I keep on bringing up when I say that mormons don't know what they believe anymore.

"The lord giveth, and the newsroom taketh away."

^ Credit to a Reddit poster for that quote.

I guess they just don't know if they teach it; they don't know if they emphasize it.

 

[ronito]

I guess they just don't know if they teach it; they don't know if they emphasize it.

lol. Man I've also tried to use that quote from Hinckley before to point out the problem and people always say, "Oh he was just saying that because he was on TV." Which I just don't get either. You either have to believe that the mormons don't really know what they believe even at a high level or that the prophet is willing to stretch the truth. Neither of which sound like a good proposition.

 

[ronitoswife]

In my experience, Mormons generally didn't believe "I get a planet after I die!" but, "If I get to the top tier of the celestial kingdom, I will become a god with limitless planets!". As far as I ever knew, the doctrine was all about becoming gods, and not "getting a planet". This article very clearly glosses over that for non Mormons, while seeming to be a sly wink towards members.
.

I remember my seminary teachers talking about this very thing and all the stuff they wanted to create on their planet. But of course, only if they made it to the top of the Celestial kingdom!

 

[mik]

This is why multi-level marketing thrives here.

 

[Thaedolus]

This is one of the most frustrating issues I run into when talking about church stuff with family. Essentially any time I nail down a doctrine that has been flipped or teachings that contradict each other, the response is "that wasn't doctrine!"

Yeah, of course it wasn't, even if it was called a doctrine by the prophet at the time. Over and over I can point out where prophecies have been wrong, or scriptures that are objectively false, and it always gets turned around on me...why am I interpreting things literally? Why am I looking for flaws? Why not look for the good?

Because that's how fucking abuse happens. That's how men get away with beating their wives for years, because of excuses. That's how priests get away with raping little boys. That's how con men keep their con going, even after being caught red handed. It's such a joke to me now that I see it as an outsider, yet my whole family is caught in the web of indoctrination. It's infuriating...and yet I'm the bad guy being a meany pants because I point out the retardation when I see it. Arrgghhh!

Sunday morning beer time...

 

[ronito]

I get your frustration man. It's like you can't pin them to anything. As much as I hate to give an evangelical more views this is pretty accurate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzypKxr9knA

I've been saying for years that momrons don't know what they teach because of stuff like this. I think it's a crisis but whenever I bring it up it seems like everyone's like, "You're just inferring stuff, everyone REALLY knows what's up."

 

[ronito]

So the church lost its appeal against the EU court of Human Rights.

http://www.humanrightseurope.org/2014/03/mormon-church-loses-united-kingdom-human-rights-complaint/

In essence in 2001 the church claimed that the Preston temple was tax exempt because it was a religious edifice. UK said "OK". Then in 2005 during an audit the UK government said, "Hey wait, actually no." And ordered the church to not only pay taxes they had to pay business taxes on it. The reasoning given was that the religious tax exemption existed because religions were open to the public and served a public good and the UK government pointed out that a temple is not open to the public and it wasn't even open to mormons, only mormons with authorization got to use the building.

The church appealed and in 2008 the UK court came back and said, "Nein!"

The church then appealed to the EU court of human rights claiming their religious rights had been infringed. Today they ruled that, there was nothing in the UK law that violated the church's human rights.

It's not getting much attention but I think this is really important. Because other EU countries are gonna see this and now they know that the EU court isn't going to stand in their way in imposing business taxes on multi-million dollar temple. And the church is gonna see this as a risk. I wonder if the church is going to start building less temples in the EU because of this.

 

[Thaedolus]

...the view out my front window right now. Tell me they're not fucking with me. Hah, time to get serious with these kids...

 

[ronito]

what am I missing?

 

[Thaedolus]

Same missionary car...of all places, parked in front of my house...

I think they possibly did it to mess with me after being by twice (the second time they stopped me two houses down and saw me walking back inside).

Harmless enough, but I can't think they didn't realize what they were doing

 

[Thaedolus]

Oh and my reaction to the church article about having our own planet is this bit by Louis CK...

Of course we don't believe you get your own planet...but maaaaybe...

 

[Laurentius]

...the view out my front window right now. Tell me they're not fucking with me. Hah, time to get serious with these kids...

The missionaries always get such nice cars these days.

...which honestly always made me a bit uncomfortable when I was a missionary. "Sure, we drive a 2010 Chevy Malibu. But no, we can't give you a ride to church on Sundays."

Not that they shouldn't have nice things, of course. I'm assuming the church gets really good deals on these cars, what with all the dealerships in Utah and how a lot of the upper leadership were car salesmen at one point...or something.

 

[ronito]

So Ordain Women is gonna try to go to the Priesthood session again. They're more dedicated than past efforts. Personally, they're welcome to it. If they wanna hear about not masturbating and how they should serve a mission and not masturbate well, why not?

 

[ronito]

So as with any feminist movement there are posts about Ordain women being like "Oh you wanna be like men huh?" posts. But I must admit this made me agree to some points.

(ignore the dismissive first section where he's like "LOLZ there's not many women in OW")

http://andykano.com/site/2014/03/so...iesthood-well-lds-men-have-some-requests-too/

So I propose that instead of focusing on such a bitty group of loud individuals, we should really start to consider the needs of the quiet majority. I’m talking about men. I believe that there is some gender inequality in the Church. But I don’t think it’s a one-way street. So I’m starting a list of requests that we, men, have all noticed, but until now, have been quiet about. (If you have any to add, then put them in the comment section)

How come there’s a mother’s lounge but not a father’s lounge? Women get to nurse and feed their baby in a dark, quiet room while fathers have to walk around the Church looking for an empty classroom or use the “stand-and-sway” method to put babies to sleep. Even if we find an unused classroom, we don’t have the rocking chair.
We want padded seats in our meeting room too. Do you know what men have? We have cold, hard, metal chairs. Are not all bottoms created equal?!
Male enrichment night. After we graduate from scouting, we get one, maybe two, activities a year for men. (Typically a shooting guns activity with BBQ.) But we want monthly activities like the women. Let’s even up those budgets a little huh.
Nursery for Elder’s quorum events. Women get the youth to babysit when they have an activity, but it’s expected that men should go to an activity without help. Do you just assume that our wives are always available to watch the kids when we have an activity? On the flipside, are you saying that men are incapable of watching the kids when the women are away to their activities? Either way, it sounds oppressive.
We want a nice table and podium in our room. Sure, we’re not known for our table decor when it comes to Sunday lessons, but we couldn’t even if we wanted to. We only have a small table with skinny legs. How am I supposed to display my tackle box and Singing Bass wall mount in style when I give my “fishers of men” lesson?
Finally, I want to propose an every-other-move ordinance where the Elders Quorum and the RS split all of the new move-ins and move-outs in the Ward. Your argument: men are stronger and can lift more. My counter-argument: women are more likely to show up and “many hands make light work.”

Again, I would like to thank the New York Times for pointing out the gender inequality in our Church. We have a long way to go, but I believe we can get there. One padded seat at a time.

Especially the moving part. Also can imagine if they were really equal? Who would really want something their EQ President cooked after they had a baby?

 

[Yoritomo]

Sounds like some MRA bullshit from a privileged perspective. Hopefully he'll start talking about biotruths.

Also there's not a person in my ward who wouldn't want some of my barbecue if there was a meal delivery

 

[ronito]

Sounds like some MRA bullshit from a privileged perspective. Hopefully he'll start talking about biotruths.

Also there's not a person in my ward who wouldn't want some of my barbecue if there was a meal delivery

Yes, but could your bbq stand up to funeral potatoes? Huh?! CAN IT?!

 

[Man God]

I've been lurking this fantastic thread long enough to see it come up a few times and I absolutely must know; what is the deal with funeral potatoes?

 

[Laurentius]

I've been lurking this fantastic thread long enough to see it come up a few times and I absolutely must know; what is the deal with funeral potatoes?

Diced potatoes with corn flakes on top. And other things mixed in, but I don't know what off the top of my head.

Mormons serve them at funerals. At least in Utah.

 

[Yoritomo]

Yes, but could your bbq stand up to funeral potatoes? Huh?! CAN IT?!

I can lead people to apostasy with my barbecue.

 

[Fathead]

My chocolate cake will start riots.

 

[ronito]

My chocolate cake will start riots.

You mean as in it's so good it will start riots right?....I remember once at 3am I saw a lady giving a show about how to make chocolate cake using nothing more than some baking chocolate, tomatoes and beer. I suspect that cake will start riots as well.

 

[Doodis]

Especially the moving part. Also can imagine if they were really equal? Who would really want something their EQ President cooked after they had a baby?

Ugh. I was in the EQ presidency for 3-4 years, in a ward that was like 1/3 duplex rentals. It was terrible. So glad I'm done with the church and no longer feel guilted into helping out.

Hire a moving crew, people! It's not the church's job to do it!

 

[ronito]

Ugh. I was in the EQ presidency for 3-4 years, in a ward that was like 1/3 duplex rentals. It was terrible. So glad I'm done with the church and no longer feel guilted into helping out.

Hire a moving crew, people! It's not the church's job to do it!

I totally agree. I had some of the church help with a move about 5 years ago but that was the only time I've ever had them help. I've always just paid movers. I remember one ward people would move in and claim to be mormon so they'd get help moving in and then never attend.

 

[ronito]

So Ordain Women is getting even more attention this year. And it made me think. Would the church continue to be the church if women had the priesthood? It's sorta one of those things that go completely against the foundation/grain of the church, sorta like if the church allowed gays to get temple marriages.

I know it sounds terribly sexist and all, but really gender roles are just so essential to definition of the church that it's something that I don't see it overcoming. Like a corporation that would rather take a poison pill than get bought out.

I sorta view it like I do gay activists that stay in the church hoping the church will change.

 

[Brianemone]

So Ordain Women is getting even more attention this year. And it made me think. Would the church continue to be the church if women had the priesthood? It's sorta one of those things that go completely against the foundation/grain of the church, sorta like if the church allowed gays to get temple marriages.

I know it sounds terribly sexist and all, but really gender roles are just so essential to definition of the church that it's something that I don't see it overcoming. Like a corporation that would rather take a poison pill than get bought out.

I sorta view it like I do gay activists that stay in the church hoping the church will change.

Is there a limit to how much can be changed before it's no longer he church? I'd like to see what it's like in another 200 years if it still exists. How much longer will the BoM be considered scripture for?

 

[Laurentius]

Is there a limit to how much can be changed before it's no longer he church? I'd like to see what it's like in another 200 years if it still exists. How much longer will the BoM be considered scripture for?

Yeah, it certainly will be a lot different. I doubt that Joseph Smith would even recognize the church today, let alone what it will be in another 200 years...

 

[ronito]

Monsons court date today. He didn't show, but six church lawyers did. Guess they are arguing. Still ongoing

 

[ronitoswife]

I've been lurking this fantastic thread long enough to see it come up a few times and I absolutely must know; what is the deal with funeral potatoes?

I can tell you exactly what's in funeral potatoes! I've made them enough.

Grated, sliced or diced potatoes, cream of chicken soup, sour cream, cheddar, onion and garlic topped off with corn flakes. I've added diced ham to it as well a few times. It's easy to make a lot of this and so they became a regular at funeral luncheons. Hence the nickname "funeral potatoes." You should try them. They are actually very good.

 

[ronito]

Church has written a letter to Ordain Women, essentially telling them "You're wrong. Most women don't agree with you. But you're welcome to our runner up prize! Oh and please don't protest at the session."

It's funny because they think that the whole thing is about attending priesthood session. When really it's about being treated equally in the leadership of the church instead just attending a 2 hour anti-masturbation/porn meeting.

 

[Thaedolus]

To be fair, my dad and I always hit up a BBQ joint afterward. Somehow tangy BBQ sauce and tender ribs made the shame feel slightly better...maybe they really just want to get some tasty post-shame BBQ?

 

[Laurentius]

If they don't stay in the "Free Speech Zone" like the letter tells them too, I wonder if the doors will be blocked with a garbage truck again.

 

[ronito]

Man, ordain women is all over my facebook. Well better said, mormon women saying that women who support ordain women are lost, sad, pitiable, and anti-church and family. Sorta funny that I don't see my mormon male friends saying anything about it really. But the women are all up in arms.

 

[Yoritomo]

I managed to cause a beautiful shit storm by posting a profile pic in support of ordain women.

 

[Thaedolus]

The Philips case was tossed out: link.

Can't say I'm surprised...about as disappointing as no Shenmue III being announced.

 

[Fathead]

The October waste of time.

 

[ronito]

Well this is totally shocking and unforeseen. Well I'd like to thank Tom for making ex Mormons look even more unbalanced, delusional and angry. Thanks for that Tom. Thanks

 

[Fathead]

I just can't understand how he thought this would work.

 

[ronito]

I just can't understand how he thought this would work.

Really? I totally know what was going on in his head.

He thought that the English government would've been like "Oh my God Tom, you poor poor soul! I can't believe they were allowed to get away with this. Well, no more! Let's get this big bad meanie in to stand trial."

Then Thomas S. Monson would get on the stand and after a few hours of hard questioning he'd break down and tears and say "You're right! You've been right all along! It's all a lie! A LIE!"

I'm fairly certain this is what Tom Philips envisioned happening. If he masturbated to the thought or not is debatable. But I bet he did.

The only real card he had in his trial was the book of abraham. That you can totally disprove rather easily without much actual opposition. But instead he got caught up in the young earth thing (which many religions believe) and the ancestry thing which can be batted with away with "They just haven't found it yet."

 

[Westonian]

Read the decision. Basically, Tom tried to skirt UK law by filing the grievance against President Monson and not the church proper, then named others other an himself as the purported victims of the fraud, without being a barister (and therefore allowed to file a petition on the behalf of others).

Add to that the untennable position of, as the judge said, having a secular court decide the merits of a theology, is such a stupid slippery slope as to be ridiculous.

So, good job, Tom. You've wasted everyone's time, and I kind of hope you get stuck with the legal bills on top of it.

 

[Laurentius]

If there is going to be a lawsuit against the church, it should be based on ways in which the church has actually hurt its members (untrained leaders offering dysfunctional and harmful sexual counseling to underage boys and girls, often without prior parental consent, for example) or because of tax evasion or something. (The stuff from the leaked Mission President's Handbook come to mind.)

Not one based off of theology. Ugh. Not surprised here either.

 

[ronito]

Read the decision. Basically, Tom tried to skirt UK law by filing the grievance against President Monson and not the church proper, then named others other an himself as the purported victims of the fraud, without being a barister (and therefore allowed to file a petition on the behalf of others).

Add to that the untennable position of, as the judge said, having a secular court decide the merits of a theology, is such a stupid slippery slope as to be ridiculous.

So, good job, Tom. You've wasted everyone's time, and I kind of hope you get stuck with the legal bills on top of it.

if I read it right I think the court is covering the costs because the initial summons should never have been granted

 

[Fathead]

Well the reason I dont understand why he thought it would work is that I actually have a rational thought in my head. Lol

 

[Hitokage]

*sarcastic golf clap*

 

[Thaedolus]

I take back what I said earlier...after going over the Shenmue post-mortem, I'm pretty devastated Shenmue III isn't happening

 

[ronito]

I take back what I said earlier...after going over the Shenmue post-mortem, I'm pretty devastated Shenmue III isn't happening

I've said before, I'll say it again.
Shenmue games are better experiences than games. I don't know how well they'd hold up in today's day and age.

 

[Thaedolus]

Oh I absolutely agree, some parts of the games are infuriatingly dumb and pointless. But I think technology has developed so much in the last 15 years that the experience could be replicated at a fraction of the development time/cost and some of the gameplay elements can shine through better than they did on Dreamcast.

Playing the games a few months ago required significant nostalgia goggles, especially the first one with the forklifts and no time skipping. Still, that shit blew my mind back in 2000.