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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

On a slightly different note, apparently John Dehlin has heard some word down the pipe that the church is considering allowing civil marriages before temple sealings without the one year penalty in the US.

That would be pretty huge in my opinion, and could go a very long way towards preventing a lot of heartache and family strife in the future. Hopefully it actually pans out -- it's nothing more than a rumor at this point, but John often has pretty good info.
 

ronito

Member
On a slightly different note, apparently John Dehlin has heard some word down the pipe that the church is considering allowing civil marriages before temple sealings without the one year penalty in the US.

That would be pretty huge in my opinion, and could go a very long way towards preventing a lot of heartache and family strife in the future. Hopefully it actually pans out -- it's nothing more than a rumor at this point, but John often has pretty good info.

That'd be a huge positive move. Personally I always viewed the year penalty as petty and a hostage taking tactic. Like I've said before it's sorta like "That's a nice daughter you have there, it'd be a shame if you couldn't go to her wedding." kind of thing. I've seen many weddings turn from an occasion of happiness to a cause for shame and strife because of stuff like this, even my own. There's no good reason to have this silly rule and the church already doesn't have the year penalty in some European countries where they're required by law to have a civil ceremony. The only reason to keep it is to have temple as stick to beat people with.
 
As far as I am aware it's not a rule in NZ, I know one of my friends got married civilly and then did the sealing seperately. I can't understand why they would have different rules in each country. It makes sense in my mind to have it seperate, even as a faithful member I felt like it would have been nice to have a normal ceremony, the sealing its self felt very sterile to my wife and I.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
As far as I am aware it's not a rule in NZ, I know one of my friends got married civilly and then did the sealing seperately. I can't understand why they would have different rules in each country. It makes sense in my mind to have it seperate, even as a faithful member I felt like it would have been nice to have a normal ceremony, the sealing its self felt very sterile to my wife and I.

Some (most?) countries don't recognize marriages performed in LDS temples, so the couple is required to be married civilly first, then sealed after. As far as I know they can be sealed the same day?

I'm not sure why the church doesn't allow this in the US. I bet ronito is right, probably some sort of hostage tactic. I know my sister in law and her husband were criticized by their families for deciding to have a civil ceremony and wait the year, because my wife's got a lot of non members on her side who she wanted to attend.

Thankfully my wife and I decided to have a badass location wedding and there was no thought of temples. Everyone, right down to my young nephews, talked about how it was the best wedding they ever attended...probably because they actually got to see it, and the reception included awesome food, a DJ, and booze rather than funeral potatoes in the cultural hall...

That isn't a knock on funeral potatoes though.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Oh in other news, somehow the local singles ward got wind of my wife's new address. I have no idea how they figure this shit out, but a couple sisters came by to invite her to church. Waifu was pretty annoyed that they got our address without her permission (my records have been removed, she was baptized at 8 but has never attended church at all).

I'm guessing her grandparents gave them our address...that's the only relative I can think of besides my parents, but my parents know better than to pull that kind of maneuver. We've owned this house for over a year.

So she asked me to help her get her name taken off. Gladly. A couple days after the ward sisters came by, though, some missionaries showed up. My wife was gone and I was working on my Jeep. I usually try to be polite as possible to missionaries because I empathize with them and know being a missionary sucks, I usually invite them in and offer them water bottles or whatever, but the senior comp really couldn't take a hint.

So after some back and forth about me being resigned, and why I left, and why I wouldn't set something up so they could talk to my wife (I'd be in the dog house for a week if I did), the senior comp points at my face and drops his MTC-trained nuclear bomb.

"I KNOW that Joseph Smith was a prophet and I KNOW the Church of Jesus Christ... Is true."

So this annoys me, not that he was following the script that I already knew (your testimony is your most powerful weapon!), but the finger pointing and general rudeness of this kid.

So I said "no you don't. So you're either lying to me right now, or you don't know anything about epistemology. You're just a virgin fresh out of high school. I was a college grad while you were in grade school. I've been around the world, I've got a mortgage, I've got a wife, I've been through some shit and I've seen some shit. I don't know everything but I am pretty sure I know more about the church than you do, and I've studied it far longer and gone far deeper into it than you have. And I know I was trained to say 'I know' this or that when I really didn't, just like you're doing right now."

He said "you can't tell me what I know or don't know."

"No I can't, but I am free to happily laugh at your testimony the same way I laugh on the inside when my three year old nephew tells me about he knows Santa is real because he got presents and Santa drank his milk and ate his cookies on Christmas."

"Well I KNOW-"

"You don't."

He was visibly pissed at this point and said they had an appointment to get to. On their way out my driveway they asked if I knew any nonmembers in the neighborhood and I just laughed.

I really don't try to get confrontational with missionaries, but the senior really got up in my face. I've been really irritated about the whole thing the past couple days. Not at the kids being kids, but the fact they're wasting two of their prime years doing this kind of stuff because they were told how amazing it would be. Ugh, I feel bad for them, and I bet that senior has been upset since our little discussion. Oh well
 

ronito

Member
Oh in other news, somehow the local singles ward got wind of my wife's new address. I have no idea how they figure this shit out, but a couple sisters came by to invite her to church. Waifu was pretty annoyed that they got our address without her permission (my records have been removed, she was baptized at 8 but has never attended church at all).

I'm guessing her grandparents gave them our address...that's the only relative I can think of besides my parents, but my parents know better than to pull that kind of maneuver. We've owned this house for over a year.

So she asked me to help her get her name taken off. Gladly. A couple days after the ward sisters came by, though, some missionaries showed up. My wife was gone and I was working on my Jeep. I usually try to be polite as possible to missionaries because I empathize with them and know being a missionary sucks, I usually invite them in and offer them water bottles or whatever, but the senior comp really couldn't take a hint.

So after some back and forth about me being resigned, and why I left, and why I wouldn't set something up so they could talk to my wife (I'd be in the dog house for a week if I did), the senior comp points at my face and drops his MTC-trained nuclear bomb.

"I KNOW that Joseph Smith was a prophet and I KNOW the Church of Jesus Christ... Is true."

So this annoys me, not that he was following the script that I already knew (your testimony is your most powerful weapon!), but the finger pointing and general rudeness of this kid.

So I said "no you don't. So you're either lying to me right now, or you don't know anything about epistemology. You're just a virgin fresh out of high school. I was a college grad while you were in grade school. I've been around the world, I've got a mortgage, I've got a wife, I've been through some shit and I've seen some shit. I don't know everything but I am pretty sure I know more about the church than you do, and I've studied it far longer and gone far deeper into it than you have. And I know I was trained to say 'I know' this or that when I really didn't, just like you're doing right now."

He said "you can't tell me what I know or don't know."

"No I can't, but I am free to happily laugh at your testimony the same way I laugh on the inside when my three year old nephew tells me about he knows Santa is real because he got presents and Santa drank his milk and ate his cookies on Christmas."

"Well I KNOW-"

"You don't."

He was visibly pissed at this point and said they had an appointment to get to. On their way out my driveway they asked if I knew any nonmembers in the neighborhood and I just laughed.

I really don't try to get confrontational with missionaries, but the senior really got up in my face. I've been really irritated about the whole thing the past couple days. Not at the kids being kids, but the fact they're wasting two of their prime years doing this kind of stuff because they were told how amazing it would be. Ugh, I feel bad for them, and I bet that senior has been upset since our little discussion. Oh well
Man I hate it when they do stuff like that. I had one missionary offer to help my wife and I "understand the scriptures" I rolled my eyes and politely declined. Even though inside I was like "Listen here you little bitch, I taught Gospel Doctrine and Elder's Quorum. My scriptures look more like notes on architecture diagrams than scriptures. I know more about the scriptures than you have any clue about." I guess it goes into that naive idea that people leave because they want to sin/are offended/haven't been properly testified to/didn't understand. They really need to teach people to not assume that anymore.

On another note. There was a reddit thread talking about how whatever a wife and husband decide to do in their sexlife is OK by the church. And I pointed out how I've known mormons that use that to justify watching porn and threesomes and swinging by that. Because they do it together. Then I got a PM from someone saying that they had seen this and thought of what i was talking about.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cas/4324298022.html

I don't know what to make of it really. Why tell people you're LDS upfront? Is that because they want to find other LDS people like that? Fat chance. I mean, I'm all for people enjoying themselves responsibly and if a husband and wife feel that swinging is something they want to do, well more power to them. But I think that's bending the rules beyond the point of breaking. Just me though.
 

Yoritomo

Member
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cas/4324298022.html

I don't know what to make of it really. Why tell people you're LDS upfront? Is that because they want to find other LDS people like that? Fat chance. I mean, I'm all for people enjoying themselves responsibly and if a husband and wife feel that swinging is something they want to do, well more power to them. But I think that's bending the rules beyond the point of breaking. Just me though.

You tell them you're LDS because it's better than saying you were visited by an angel with a flaming sword that threatened to kill you if you didn't.

All I know is that all my extramarital dalliances have ensured exaltation for themselves and their families.

Sincerely,
Joseph Smith Jr.
 
Oh in other news, somehow the local singles ward got wind of my wife's new address. I have no idea how they figure this shit out, but a couple sisters came by to invite her to church. Waifu was pretty annoyed that they got our address without her permission (my records have been removed, she was baptized at 8 but has never attended church at all)...

Yeah, that is frustrating. Especially since I know exactly why they're doing it, and that I did similar things on my own mission. (Although I don't think I was ever that forceful with someone -- I wasn't the "bold" type of missionary that they tried to train us to be. I think I at least tried to be understanding.)

It doesn't help when they shove stuff down teenagers throats about how they're speaking for god and that their authority is "above that of the kinds of this earth". There's some McConkie quote that says that, and we all were supposed to carry it around in our wallets and have it memorized. Real smart stuff to tell teenagers with already bloated senses of self importance.

I bet you that the senior companion went to district meeting that week to tell everybody this great story about this horrible apostate that they met, and how they felt the spirit leave the second they walked into his yard. It was such a faith promoting experience when the senior companion bore his testimony, confounding the apostate.
 

ronito

Member
What the hell? Corvo, you're always complaining that you don't see people that don't understand basic doctrines, I got one for you. This guy on reddit swears that you pay tithing on what you have left after you pay your bills.

Reddit guy 1 said:
Let me clarify then. If my pay check is 400 dollars and after taxes I am left with 300 dollars and after bills I am left with 25 and honest tithe would be $2.50.

Tithing is suppose to be on your surplus income, if you can provide scripture reference otherwise that would be great, but D&C 119 (which the first presidency was quoting) says very clearly that its in your surplus income. Interest is synonmous with surplus income.

I know that under Young when saints were gathering in SLC it was changed to 10% of your total assets when you were baptized and 10% of your total assets when you showed up in SLC but this was more out of necessity. SLC couldn't afford to support droves of immigrants.

Lorenze Snow very clearly revearsed the policy of the church to line back up with the doctrine of the church (section 119). I know of no revelation that has changed it since. I know many Mormons pay tighting on their gross and many pay on their net, but surplus is the only tithe you can justify with scripture.

Now the real question is what is 'surplus' I think that takes a very mature person to distinguish between their needs and their wants.

And when I said that was nice but the church actually teaches on gross and you need to pay tithing first before you pay any bills I got the following reply from someone else
Reddit dude 2 said:
Sorry--anybody or any church who would make you choose between life-sustaining electric power, by which you maintain the lives and well-being of your entire family through cooking, refrigeration, air conditioning, and lighting, and TITHING... does not deserve a membership. Do you really think that God cares how much money you give the church when you have to choose not to take care of your own family in order to pay? That's just sick and greedy and terrible, and any religious person who would advocate that position is a follower of Mammon, not God.

58b60830d26ef5b1f63fd4edb732fe5c220cba41465f207836d5bf861c5ece40.jpg


Ever since I've been a kid I've been taught you pay on either gross or net (not what's left) and that you pay tithing FIRST. If you don't have enough to buy food and pay tithing you pay tithing first. What the hell?
 
Ever since I've been a kid I've been taught you pay on either gross or net (not what's left) and that you pay tithing FIRST. If you don't have enough to buy food and pay tithing you pay tithing first. What the hell?

I think this is purely a case of making the doctrine suit your wishes. Yes, the scripture reads as surplus and that is great, it would make a lot more sense to me for it to be that way. But as you've pointed out, the church currently teaches it as being 10% of gross income.

Modern day prophets trump scripture.
 

Yoritomo

Member
What the hell? Corvo, you're always complaining that you don't see people that don't understand basic doctrines, I got one for you. This guy on reddit swears that you pay tithing on what you have left after you pay your bills.



And when I said that was nice but the church actually teaches on gross and you need to pay tithing first before you pay any bills I got the following reply from someone else


58b60830d26ef5b1f63fd4edb732fe5c220cba41465f207836d5bf861c5ece40.jpg


Ever since I've been a kid I've been taught you pay on either gross or net (not what's left) and that you pay tithing FIRST. If you don't have enough to buy food and pay tithing you pay tithing first. What the hell?

Who are these people and where are they in any sunday school lesson or sacrament meeting about tithing that I've ever been to? This is the first time I have ever heard about the "surplus" argument. The only argument I've ever heard was gross or net.
 

CorvoSol

Member
What the hell? Corvo, you're always complaining that you don't see people that don't understand basic doctrines, I got one for you. This guy on reddit swears that you pay tithing on what you have left after you pay your bills.



And when I said that was nice but the church actually teaches on gross and you need to pay tithing first before you pay any bills I got the following reply from someone else


58b60830d26ef5b1f63fd4edb732fe5c220cba41465f207836d5bf861c5ece40.jpg


Ever since I've been a kid I've been taught you pay on either gross or net (not what's left) and that you pay tithing FIRST. If you don't have enough to buy food and pay tithing you pay tithing first. What the hell?

I've always been taught it was your gross earnings. I honestly cannot say that I really get the whole of people's issues with tithing because I have not earned anything since 08, so it's been a long, long time since I've paid. I kind of miss paying tithing, honestly, because it gave me a sense of ownership in things. This year I expect things will change for me since I have to get a job to pay for insurance to go to school and so I imagine the amounts of paperwork I have to do will finally increase.

But as someone who doesn't pay tithing because I have no money, I can't really comment much. It's like the constant harping at Church of people saying "Now I know we can't understand what it's like for God to be a Father cuz we're all miserable, unwed schmucks, buuuuut." It's like that. I can't claim to understand the difficulties facing people who pay tithing because it's something I don't worry about. This year's tithing settlement lasted ten seconds. I was like "Hey Bishop I earned jack squat this year so I'm a full tithe payer." And Bishop was like "Word."

But the guy does sound like he's off base, since the entire idea behind tithing is asking you to sacrifice, and a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice if it's easy. That's the whole Widow's Mite thing there.
 
Well, this is a thing:

Mormon church to build 32-story residential building in Philadelphia

THE MORMON church will build a 32-story residential building and a new meetinghouse a block away from its Center City temple, officials announced yesterday.

Mayor Nutter and Council President Darrell Clarke joined members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to announce the project, which will be at 16th and Vine streets and is slated for completion in 2016. The rental units and meetinghouse will be open to anyone, not just members of the church.

The development, which could generate up to 1,800 construction jobs, will have 258 rental apartments, 13 rental townhouses and retail space, according to the city.

It sits near the base of the Benjamin Franklin Parkway and a block away from the Mormon temple under construction at 17th and Vine.

The plan must be approved by the Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority and other agencies.

The 32-story tower is one of several recently announced projects that could fill in the Philadelphia skyline. They include: Comcast's 59-story Innovation and Technology Center, at 18th and Arch; developer Carl Dranoff's plan for a 47-story residential tower and hotel, at Broad and Spruce; and a 700-room hotel high-rise, at 15th and Chestnut.

All I can say right now is "bleh".
 

ronito

Member
There's been a general rumor that when the church buys land for a temple that it also buys the land surrounding or land close to it because they know it raises the property value and they then sell it or develop it to make a profit. This does little to stop such rumors.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
THEY FOUND ME AGAIN!

OMFG I can't believe it. I'm walking my dog today and the same fucking elders stop their car and cross the street to talk to me. They didn't recognize me until they got up close because I was wearing an A's hat and sunglasses.

Talk about awkward. I'm like "back for more?" they both have this aw shit look on their faces.

This conversation was brief to say the least.
 
THEY FOUND ME AGAIN!

OMFG I can't believe it. I'm walking my dog today and the same fucking elders stop their car and cross the street to talk to me. They didn't recognize me until they got up close because I was wearing an A's hat and sunglasses.

Talk about awkward. I'm like "back for more?" they both have this aw shit look on their faces.

This conversation was brief to say the least.

Must be a sign!

Out of curiosity, did it look like they stopped their cars ONLY to talk to you? Or were they getting out to do something else, and you just happened to be there to talk to?

I ask because there was only once on my mission where we actually stopped the car to street contact somebody. And that was because my companion was kind of nuts...

Street contacting sucked (especially when the mission was big on "talking to everybody") so the car was kind of a "safe zone" for me.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
They definitely pulled over for me, once they finished they walked back to the car and kept driving.
 

ronito

Member
They definitely pulled over for me, once they finished they walked back to the car and kept driving.

That's just creepy. Like hearing about those things where exmormons get together and someone walks in takes a picture of the group and runs away. Strange man. Real strange.
 

CorvoSol

Member
*BYUI sends out people to hand out candy and cards to students in the cafeteria, presumably so that if you're one of those people who measures self worth in cards and candy received in February, you come out unscathed. All hunky dory, fine, whatever, no big deal thanks for the free chocolate.

*Person handing out the chocolates: "Why is everyone eating lunch alone? It's Valentine's day!"

:|
 
*BYUI sends out people to hand out candy and cards to students in the cafeteria, presumably so that if you're one of those people who measures self worth in cards and candy received in February, you come out unscathed. All hunky dory, fine, whatever, no big deal thanks for the free chocolate.

*Person handing out the chocolates: "Why is everyone eating lunch alone? It's Valentine's day!"

:|

LOL, sounds like he completely missed the point.
 

ronito

Member
Oh god

Men and women can look sharp and be fashionable, yet they can also be modest. Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self­ respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

-Elder Tad Callister of the Presidency of the Seventy, “The Lord’s Standard of Morality,” March 2014 Ensign, p. 45-49.


http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/02/14/your-friday-firestorm-59/

It's 2014. 2014.
 

ronito

Member
Oh man, this sex therapist just threw the gauntlet down on the Elder Callister and the church's anti- masturbation stance. I'm only going to highlight a few things here but you should read the entirety it's all very, very good she knocks it way out of the park

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2014/02/morality-we-can-do-much-better-than-this.html

When we teach through fear, we increase anxiety. And anxiety increases the probability of unhealthy coping strategies: exactly the opposite of what we want when dealing with sexuality. I cannot stress this enough!!! For a culture that is obsessed with using an addiction paradigm to deal with pornography viewing, for example, we need to recognize that this fear-based approach contributes to the types of behaviors we are so desperately trying to stop. As leaders and educators we need to knock it off!

Callister allows for no level of arousal or sexual thought as a natural part of being a mortal human. He speaks of avoiding material that is “pornographic in ANY way.” For many of my OCD clients this becomes an impossible feat (because it is defined rigidly) – they cannot enjoy a museum where fine art depicts the human body, they cannot go to work where there exists “walking pornography” through what is considered immodest dress, they cannot develop any tolerance to the sexual nature of the human experience. This is just not a mature or realistic way to deal with sexuality and it gives sexual imagery more power than it would otherwise have if we could normalize the fact that sexuality has always been and will always be part of the human story

If anyone spoke to my children like this about any aspect of sexuality – I would be incensed. It uses inappropriate addiction-style language and promotes self-fulfilling prophecies which rob individuals of a more nuanced, agency-friendly approach to sexual experiences they may have had in the past or will continue to have in the future. And even though he uses addiction language, he goes against current addiction treatment (AA approach) by stating “at some point willpower will be an indispensable ingredient—there is not a pill or counseling technique to solve every addiction.” He is just not qualified to make these types of statements that can wreak havoc for those who are legitimately undergoing addiction treatment.

Callister ends by saying that if we follow the advice given in the talk we will be “eligible for a spouse of like purity.” I cannot emphasize enough how damaging it is for members of the church who have sexually explored outside the realms of marriage

The way that sexual standards are presented in this type of talk is unrealistic and sets people up for failure. No one will be able to achieve them at the level of rigidity in which they are communicated. And if they can, there may be other issues at hand – such as having an asexual response (an entirely different topic altogether). I cannot stress enough how many of these types of rigid, shaming and incorrect sexual teachings are the core reason why so many of our members struggle with healthy sexuality, the ability to claim personal authority and the correct sexual education of the next generation....This article successfully sets us back about 35 years.

I was thinking with this and the quote about "a woman attracts the man she dresses for" idea that it is utterly AMAZING to me that there aren't way more mormon divorces due to this childish view of sex. I mean yes, we don't want our wives to be dressed up like strippers when we go out to the store. But what man doesn't want his wife to be sexy and confident and sexual in the bedroom? What guy doesn't want her to wear a little Victoria's Secret or *gasp* Fredrick's of Hollywood in the bedroom? How, exactly, do we expect women to own their own sexuality and confidence after they've spent nearly a decade having it crushed? While it's less common the same thing happens to guys. I mean I've met women who feel terrible because their husband only wants sex twice a month, while they want sex 2-3 times a week. They genuinely feel like sinful, lustful bad people for this when it's goddamned normal/healthy. I've met guys that had been married to their wives for years and the number of times they had sex was in the single digits.

I'm not saying that sex is all there is to marriage. But it's a large part of it and having seen tons of people get divorced over sex or cheat on a spouse that is only "meh" sexually I don't think people can say that sex is a small part of a healthy marriage, especially after they've get to/have crossed the "7 year itch" part. I believe that when the sex is good it's 10% of the marriage and when it's bad it's 90%.

I am just astounded that the church honestly believes that its members can transition from a state of non-sexuality to a state of sexuality enough to support monogamy as if a switch had just been thrown. This is an old antiquated idea that's left over from the idea that a wife should submit to her husband and where sexuality was on the man's terms. That died 40+ years ago and yet we're STILL talking like that. Monogamy is a complicated dance that requires both partners to follow and lead at the same time. And the church would have you go your whole life never dancing and then suddenly after you get married to become Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It doesn't work like that, it hasn't worked like that since the 70s.

Not to mention what it does to our non-married members. What a number is getting played on them. I mean one of the top posts on reddit right now is a guy who started cutting instead of masturbating. I saw a mormon blog the other day about a single woman called something like "waiting for my life to begin". How sad is that? I've had this saying that the church is stuck in pre-1950s and that, more than the internet, will be the end of them. I've said it for about 5 years now, but honestly I never really took it too seriously. But really in the past few weeks I'm starting to think that maybe I should start taking it seriously. The church's issues around sex will not go away and they're plentiful and very serious.

- Telling LGBTs that they're welcomed but doomed to a life without love or a life without the church. That's not gonna work in the 21st century. Too many people out of the closet now. Everyone knows someone who's gay and is a good person.

- Telling women that they attract the man they dress for. That's not gonna work in the 21st Century. I hate hate HATE the words "rape culture" but...yeah.

- Infantilizing members that aren't married. That's not gonna work in the 21st Century. Women are putting off getting married til later as are men. Leaving them stuck as "less than grown ups" in perpetuity until they're married isn't gonna hold up.

- Tying a woman's salvation to a man. That's not gonna work in the 21st century. Oaks came out a while ago and addressed the complaint of some women saying there weren't enough worthy men to marry and what should they do. His response was that the best way to help women was to create more active men. Women don't think like that anymore. They want be masters of their own fate. Hell, even Disney has caught onto this.

- Preaching asexuality until marriage. That's not going to work in the 21st century. Monogamy has changed (just like war). It's no longer a "duty" to be done/fulfilled. You don't "endure to the end" with it. Like I said it's a complex dance and delivering people up for marriage that a sexual IQ in the tens is a terrible way to start that dance

- Preaching against masturbation. That's not going to work in the 21st century. There used to be a time where most everyone preached against masturbation but that time's gone. Now people are talking, and the church can't hide behind a curtain. People will know other people masturbate and are moral and good people. This combined with everyone getting married later, well something's gotta give. I'd lump porn in here too, but I think that one's a bit more difficult to address. No, I don't believe that most people who say they're "addicted" actually are (not by a long shot). But at the same time, there are people that can't handle it. These are by far few and far between, but they do exist.

In short the only thing I think the church has a good stance when it comes to sex in the modern world is monogamy, but even that one they do not prepare its members anymore for proper monogamy than me shouting at my kids not to pick their nose prepares them for a life of proper hygiene.

Yes, yes, I know the church wont change. And yeah, I'm probably over dramatizing the doom for the church. But honestly, I see friends and family having their lives ruined by this shit, I see self-esteems destroyed, lives thought of as worthless, divorces and broken homes and dreams and I'm not laying all of those at the feet of the church, but I'm also not foolish enough to say they have no small part in it. I find it utterly disgusting.
 

Furyous

Member
Oh man, this sex therapist just threw the gauntlet down on the Elder Callister and the church's anti- masturbation stance. I'm only going to highlight a few things here but you should read the entirety it's all very, very good she knocks it way out of the park

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2014/02/morality-we-can-do-much-better-than-this.html











I was thinking with this and the quote about "a woman attracts the man she dresses for" idea that it is utterly AMAZING to me that there aren't way more mormon divorces due to this childish view of sex. I mean yes, we don't want our wives to be dressed up like strippers when we go out to the store. But what man doesn't want his wife to be sexy and confident and sexual in the bedroom? What guy doesn't want her to wear a little Victoria's Secret or *gasp* Fredrick's of Hollywood in the bedroom? How, exactly, do we expect women to own their own sexuality and confidence after they've spent nearly a decade having it crushed? While it's less common the same thing happens to guys. I mean I've met women who feel terrible because their husband only wants sex twice a month, while they want sex 2-3 times a week. They genuinely feel like sinful, lustful bad people for this when it's goddamned normal/healthy. I've met guys that had been married to their wives for years and the number of times they had sex was in the single digits.

I'm not saying that sex is all there is to marriage. But it's a large part of it and having seen tons of people get divorced over sex or cheat on a spouse that is only "meh" sexually I don't think people can say that sex is a small part of a healthy marriage, especially after they've get to/have crossed the "7 year itch" part. I believe that when the sex is good it's 10% of the marriage and when it's bad it's 90%.

I am just astounded that the church honestly believes that its members can transition from a state of non-sexuality to a state of sexuality enough to support monogamy as if a switch had just been thrown. This is an old antiquated idea that's left over from the idea that a wife should submit to her husband and where sexuality was on the man's terms. That died 40+ years ago and yet we're STILL talking like that. Monogamy is a complicated dance that requires both partners to follow and lead at the same time. And the church would have you go your whole life never dancing and then suddenly after you get married to become Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It doesn't work like that, it hasn't worked like that since the 70s.

Not to mention what it does to our non-married members. What a number is getting played on them. I mean one of the top posts on reddit right now is a guy who started cutting instead of masturbating. I saw a mormon blog the other day about a single woman called something like "waiting for my life to begin". How sad is that? I've had this saying that the church is stuck in pre-1950s and that, more than the internet, will be the end of them. I've said it for about 5 years now, but honestly I never really took it too seriously. But really in the past few weeks I'm starting to think that maybe I should start taking it seriously. The church's issues around sex will not go away and they're plentiful and very serious.

- Telling LGBTs that they're welcomed but doomed to a life without love or a life without the church. That's not gonna work in the 21st century. Too many people out of the closet now. Everyone knows someone who's gay and is a good person.

- Telling women that they attract the man they dress for. That's not gonna work in the 21st Century. I hate hate HATE the words "rape culture" but...yeah.

- Infantilizing members that aren't married. That's not gonna work in the 21st Century. Women are putting off getting married til later as are men. Leaving them stuck as "less than grown ups" in perpetuity until they're married isn't gonna hold up.

- Tying a woman's salvation to a man. That's not gonna work in the 21st century. Oaks came out a while ago and addressed the complaint of some women saying there weren't enough worthy men to marry and what should they do. His response was that the best way to help women was to create more active men. Women don't think like that anymore. They want be masters of their own fate. Hell, even Disney has caught onto this.

- Preaching asexuality until marriage. That's not going to work in the 21st century. Monogamy has changed (just like war). It's no longer a "duty" to be done/fulfilled. You don't "endure to the end" with it. Like I said it's a complex dance and delivering people up for marriage that a sexual IQ in the tens is a terrible way to start that dance

- Preaching against masturbation. That's not going to work in the 21st century. There used to be a time where most everyone preached against masturbation but that time's gone. Now people are talking, and the church can't hide behind a curtain. People will know other people masturbate and are moral and good people. This combined with everyone getting married later, well something's gotta give. I'd lump porn in here too, but I think that one's a bit more difficult to address. No, I don't believe that most people who say they're "addicted" actually are (not by a long shot). But at the same time, there are people that can't handle it. These are by far few and far between, but they do exist.

In short the only thing I think the church has a good stance when it comes to sex in the modern world is monogamy, but even that one they do not prepare its members anymore for proper monogamy than me shouting at my kids not to pick their nose prepares them for a life of proper hygiene.

Yes, yes, I know the church wont change. And yeah, I'm probably over dramatizing the doom for the church. But honestly, I see friends and family having their lives ruined by this shit, I see self-esteems destroyed, lives thought of as worthless, divorces and broken homes and dreams and I'm not laying all of those at the feet of the church, but I'm also not foolish enough to say they have no small part in it.

I want to stress before discussing this that it's not my intention to appear negative in my response to you. The church will never embrace homosexuality in any form or fashion. As a convert the rest of your points are valid and frustrating.


I can understand someone raised in the church telling you your issues are a part of their lives and upbringing. For instance, tying a woman's salvation to a man. It's possible to see how beginning a pattern of masturbation leads to an honest misinterpretation of women which leads to falling away at some point. Put another way: a teenager young adult that expects every woman to look and act like an adult performer may become dissatisfied with sisters during courtship or after marriage.

Sisters attracting a man through proper attire is understandable when we're at church events. As long as they're in a church nurtured environment it makes sense. With that said, those of us who don't live with church roomates and go out with non church friends have to make tough decisions. Keep those standards of course.

The mormon expression podcast discussed this in detail. I don't agree with everything they said but they raise valid points.
 

ronito

Member
I want to stress before discussing this that it's not my intention to appear negative in my response to you. The church will never embrace homosexuality in any form or fashion.
I get that and I'm certainly not asking the church to. However, I still maintain it's a problem for them. People have gay friends, gay cousins, gay sons and daughters. The church needs to be careful of their rhetoric around it, as it stands its alienating everyone that's not the base, and in some cases making some people feel they must choose between their gay child or the church. It's a problem. I don't expect the church to go in and say "Gay sealings for everyone!" But at the same time going "Gays are an abomination!" Didn't work, because unlike before when everyone was in the closet people know gay people now and when the church says "gays an abomination!" they instinctively think "Uncle Jon isn't a bad guy." The new "Gays are broken, but we still love them" isn't much better. Honestly I don't know the way forward with the church when it comes to gays. I just know this isn't working.

As a convert the rest of your points are valid and frustrating.


I can understand someone raised in the church telling you your issues are a part of their lives and upbringing. For instance, tying a woman's salvation to a man. It's possible to see how beginning a pattern of masturbation leads to an honest misinterpretation of women which leads to falling away at some point. Put another way: a teenager young adult that expects every woman to look and act like an adult performer may become dissatisfied with sisters during courtship or after marriage.
I will give you that. However, you must admit not everyone that views porn expects their partners to look/act like porn. Sure there is an element of fantasy, just as there is in romantic comedies, and that's actually healthy. Heaven knows, if sisters expected men to act like Edward Cullen or Hugh Grant in whatever his latest RomCom is it'd be just as bad. But, having known people like this. One of my wife's friends went through this period where he wanted his wife to look like Pamela Anderson, is tied to the sexual immaturity tied to the church. We can't go around telling people "You can't want your partner to do x or dress like y." Sexual fantasy is an integral part of what makes us human. The ability to talk through fantasies understand why you have them and work that out, I'd argue that puts a bigger stopper on the "Men expecting all women to be porn stars" than telling them it's not that way. Further there's a fine line. As a spouse it is your job to satisfy your partner sexually so long as it's within reason. I've seen many women be like "Ugg, we just had missionary sex last week. Why aren't you satisfied?" And use the whole porn star gambit to keep from having the discussion as to why their partners aren't sexually satisfied. It's not much different than a partner's romantic needs. If all you do is give your wife chocolates on valentines day and not pay attention to her romantic needs and when she came to you to talk about it, countering with "You just want me to be like those guys in your romantic comedies and that's not realistic!" That's not acceptable either.

Sisters attracting a man through proper attire is understandable when we're at church events. As long as they're in a church nurtured environment it makes sense. With that said, those of us who don't live with church roomates and go out with non church friends have to make tough decisions. Keep those standards of course.

The mormon expression podcast discussed this in detail. I don't agree with everything they said but they raise valid points.
There's a difference between having standards and blaming women for men's actions. Further this drives in an element of judgementalism. "If she wears x, she must be like y" kind of thinking.
 

mik

mik is unbeatable
The church will never embrace homosexuality in any form or fashion.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "embrace" is--but there is zero doubt that the church's stance on homosexuality will change, rather significantly, in my lifetime.

The church is already facing a frightening trajectory of rates of apostasy, nonattendance, and tithing decline. As the current generation ages, and as America continues to drift into being a secular nation, they'll have to be very careful to retain marketshare and remain as mainstream as possible.

The alternative--to dig in their heels and line up on the wrong side of history, again--will only serve to marginalize the church and exacerbate all the problems they currently face. There's no way leadership will allow anything that threatens their financial strength, or their nonprofit status.
 
I suppose it depends on your definition of "embrace" is--but there is zero doubt that the church's stance on homosexuality will change, rather significantly, in my lifetime.

The church is already facing a frightening trajectory of rates of apostasy, nonattendance, and tithing decline. As the current generation ages, and as America continues to drift into being a secular nation, they'll have to be very careful to retain marketshare and remain as mainstream as possible.

The alternative--to dig in their heels and line up on the wrong side of history, again--will only serve to marginalize the church and exacerbate all the problems they currently face. There's no way leadership will allow anything that threatens their financial strength, or their nonprofit status.

Unless of course they actually believe what they are preaching. It's a lose/lose for the leadership IMO.
 

ronito

Member
Weird. Missionaries stopped by. I don't mind them. They don't share lessons, and I give them water and such. But they haven't been around for months then suddenly they just pop by and are like "Soooo.....anything you wanna talk about?"

I know I'm being paranoid but makes me wonder why they're here all the sudden. We're probably just a project for them. Nice married couple with a bunch of kids. Damnit we SHOULD be active mormons!
 

ronito

Member
Unless of course they actually believe what they are preaching. It's a lose/lose for the leadership IMO.

The church is nothing if not pragmatic. I mean polygamy used to be a cornerstone in the church, it was THE "new and everlasting covenant" and look how quickly they abandoned it when they needed to get the US gov't's good side.

If it gets to that kind of level (which it never will) the church has already shown that doctrine can be easily rewritten and forgotten.
 
The church is nothing if not pragmatic. I mean polygamy used to be a cornerstone in the church, it was THE "new and everlasting covenant" and look how quickly they abandoned it when they needed to get the US gov't's good side.

If it gets to that kind of level (which it never will) the church has already shown that doctrine can be easily rewritten and forgotten.

Oh completely agreed, it's just that they will lose face if they do.
 

mik

mik is unbeatable
They lose face either way.

They could have stuck to their guns and continued to deny allowing blacks to hold the priesthood--and lose face with the majority of society (not so great for missionary work).

Or they could, through opportunely timed revelation, bestow that honor to them--and appear that their doctrine is subject to political and societal pressures.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Weird. Missionaries stopped by. I don't mind them. They don't share lessons, and I give them water and such. But they haven't been around for months then suddenly they just pop by and are like "Soooo.....anything you wanna talk about?"

I know I'm being paranoid but makes me wonder why they're here all the sudden. We're probably just a project for them. Nice married couple with a bunch of kids. Damnit we SHOULD be active mormons!

You're in Utah or Salt Lake valley right? I have heard "the brethren" have been worried about "losing" Salt Lake and its surrounding areas to dirty apostates or non Mormons like ourselves. I think they missed the boat on the whole internet/social media thing and lost control of their message almost overnight. Now I see lots of missionaries about Sandy, and the extra zeal shown in my recent encounters was somewhat startling. I think the entire zone must meet up at the Cafe Rio on 9400S Fridays because my wife and I get lunch there every other Friday and there are at least a dozen missionaries there on a regular basis.

Lots more sister missionaries too. They always seem to be in threesomes, is that more common now?
 

ronito

Member
You're in Utah or Salt Lake valley right? I have heard "the brethren" have been worried about "losing" Salt Lake and its surrounding areas to dirty apostates or non Mormons like ourselves. I think they missed the boat on the whole internet/social media thing and lost control of their message almost overnight. Now I see lots of missionaries about Sandy, and the extra zeal shown in my recent encounters was somewhat startling. I think the entire zone must meet up at the Cafe Rio on 9400S Fridays because my wife and I get lunch there every other Friday and there are at least a dozen missionaries there on a regular basis.

Lots more sister missionaries too. They always seem to be in threesomes, is that more common now?

Nah man I'm in Sacramento. Don't know where you got the idea I was still there. Though I did grow up in Provo/Orem area.

Also, sister missionaries....threesomes....uhh...I'm gonna need a minute.
 
Also, sister missionaries....threesomes....uhh...I'm gonna need a minute.

We always had our silent guffaws when our mission president called them threesomes. We got in the habit of calling them "tripanionships" to avoid awkward moments, but the mission president never seemed to get the irony of calling them threesomes.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Nah man I'm in Sacramento. Don't know where you got the idea I was still there. Though I did grow up in Provo/Orem area.

Also, sister missionaries....threesomes....uhh...I'm gonna need a minute.

Maybe it was where you were raised then, I dunno. I'll work on my internet stalking skills in the future haha. You ever go to any river cats game? It feels wrong to root for the Bees in Salt Lake when they're an Angels club.

As for threesomes, we would always snicker about it but that was the terminology we used anyway. Fun story: I was actually 100% obedient as a missionary, didn't ever masturbate or a anything (which was a monumental feat for me, let me tell you). What ended up happening to my extreme sex drive, though, was nightly wet dreams...multiple times a night. Not even kidding. I had maybe one or two in my life until that point, but when I got completely abstinent from all sexual activity, it was crazy. And the funny thing was, I had recurring dreams about the tree of life in the MTC, only instead of being packed full of 14 other elders, it was full of sisters...hah! It was actually kind of awesome, guilt-free orgasms...
 

Yoritomo

Member
Bednar's article is also pretty great/terrible.

TL:DR

Bednar "clarifies" the belief that if your family is sealed and you are righteous then your posterity can be saved with you even if they have fallen away from righteousness.

He whips out some bullshit to say if you are sealed and righteous and your child falls away your child is going to hell.

Thanks Bednar.
 
D

Deleted member 1159

Unconfirmed Member
Bednar's article is also pretty great/terrible.

TL:DR

Bednar "clarifies" that the belief that if your family is sealed and your are righteous then your posterity can be saved with you even if they have fallen away from righteousness.

If you are sealed and righteous and your child falls away your child is going to hell.

Thanks Bednar.

Yep, I'm sure that doctrine was one thing keeping my mother sane about my apostasy. Bednar has no idea the kind of pain he is inflicting by needlessly spouting his bullshit...Maybe he thinks he's keeping people from falling away by scaring them like this, but really it's just going to inflict pain on parents who were counting on their righteousness to get wayward children into the Celestial Kingdom.

Fuck off, Bednar. This cult has already done enough to hurt my family relationship.
 

ronito

Member
Hahahaha! Actually, I was thinking that song was a perfect song about leaving the church. In a way, as cheesy as it sounds, that's kind of how it was for me.
Yeah I have to agree, the first thing I thought about was about leaving the church. Fact is if someone makes a song about being free from being oppressed and finally being yourself and your first reaction is to be offended? You really gotta have a serious introspective moment there.

Bednar's article is also pretty great/terrible.

TL:DR

Bednar "clarifies" the belief that if your family is sealed and you are righteous then your posterity can be saved with you even if they have fallen away from righteousness.

He whips out some bullshit to say if you are sealed and righteous and your child falls away your child is going to hell.

Thanks Bednar.

When I heard about this article I thought about all the moms this would make cry. Really, more than the BoA, and Prop 8 and the polygamy and all the fraud and all the history and all that, THIS stuff was what caused me to leave.

It's a nice thought that if everyone's good you get to live together forever. But there's a dark side to it too. Essentially you're family and everyone you love is taken hostage. And that's the whole problem that I finally couldn't reconcile/wave away. As a parent I love my kids and there's no way I'd say "You get this good stuff and get to be happy." to one of my kids and then say "You pissed me off, so you get this crap and you can never visit me." to another. I'm not a perfect father, far from it, but even I wouldn't do that. It's small and petty.

Essentially it put me in a position where there were only three possible outcomes

1) God is petty and vengeful
2) God is held by laws
3) It was not something I felt worthy of believing

If God was vengeful and petty then I didn't want to worship him. If he is held by laws then we should worship the laws, or who made them and not God. That only left the last one.

I cannot imagine going to someone who had a loved one and saying "Gee, I'm so sorry for loss. You'd better keep these rules or you'll never, ever see your friend again." or saying "Too bad they didn't wear their garments. Guess they'll be being tormented by their guilt for eternity."

Hell, I can't think of a villain that would say that....well MAYBE Kefka. Maybe.
 

Yoritomo

Member
I know it was already apparent but at least we know who is continuing the Hardass doctrinaire tradition.

Where's a Hugh B Brown when you need him?
 
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