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Mormon/Ex-Mormon Thread of 3 hour blocks and salvation flowcharts

Thanks for the encouragement. This place has just really, really gotten under my (admittedly thin) skin of late, and it's cracking me up a bit. It's ironic, really. I came here because I thought that BYU would make me stronger and better, but I find myself being worn down by it more and more.

Ultra Mormon communities always got under my skin as well. The problem seems to be that you disagree with some of the principles being taught while simultaneously dealing with being treated like a child and having your agency taken away.

Sorry, I won't be much help here as the things you are describing are some of the things that lead me out of the church.
 

ronito

Member
Corvo,
we've discussed this at length before and really I don't know how you put up with it. you're far better at separating the culture from the church, try as I might I was never able to really separate them I felt they were part and parcel and excusing one for the other is just making excuses. Yeah, I know, church is perfect but people aren't. I get that. But at the same time, I could accept that excuse if it weren't just so damned toxic. Seriously though, it sounds like that class is toxin concentrated. Honestly if I was in your place I'd probably would've been like
LB388by.gif


ages ago.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Ultra Mormon communities always got under my skin as well. The problem seems to be that you disagree with some of the principles being taught while simultaneously dealing with being treated like a child and having your agency taken away.

Sorry, I won't be much help here as the things you are describing are some of the things that lead me out of the church.

No it's okay, because if nothing else, this class has really helped me to have a perspective on why people leave. I admit that when I was younger I often figured it was that whole "Oh cuz they sinned" thing or because someone hurt them personally, but I can see now, pretty clearly I think, how someone could sour to the actual Church, because this vision of it, the vision this class presents, is utterly rank to me.

Corvo,
we've discussed this at length before and really I don't know how you put up with it. you're far better at separating the culture from the church, try as I might I was never able to really separate them I felt they were part and parcel and excusing one for the other is just making excuses. Yeah, I know, church is perfect but people aren't. I get that. But at the same time, I could accept that excuse if it weren't just so damned toxic. Seriously though, it sounds like that class is toxin concentrated. Honestly if I was in your place I'd probably would've been like
LB388by.gif


ages ago.

I haven't deuced out yet because my diploma rides on this single class. I cannot graduate without passing this class, and I've spent years of my life and gone thousands of dollars into debt for this diploma, and I can't sacrifice that because of a single, albeit exceptionally awful, class. And it's pure shit that that situation is foisted upon me, but there it is.

I am fortunate that the experiences I've had prior to this have helped illustrate how the Church varies from place to place, I think. If I hadn't been to Brazil and seen that things can vary widely depending on where you are, I don't know how I'd have fared.

What surprises me is that I haven't snapped in class yet. That I've held my tongue this far. Because holding my tongue and not flipping out are basically the hardest things for me to do in my entire life. And at times this class is almost perfectly wired to piss me off.

Today, for example. Once again I can't tell you what the topic of class was about. Maybe it was about good parenting? Maybe? Not sure. Here are things I noted during class, though:

-The teacher begins class by stressing that the Prophets threaten. Reasons for this remain unknown.
-The teacher then stresses that Anger is totally a Godly emotion. Like the above, there is truth here, but it is colored to suit his point.
-Teacher raises the specter of political correctness amongst a list of societal evils.
-Teacher literally extols the virtues of a benevolent dictator. Compares parenting to being a dictator or a hardassed coach, but also talks about how it sucks that politicians aren't spiritual like the kings in the Book of Mormon whilst completely forgetting that the good Kings in the Book of Mormon intentionally handed their reign over to politicians because dictators suck more often than not.
-Teacher cites statistics saying that there is a higher success rate in arranged marriages than not, whilst downplaying the amount of physical violence also present in these relationships. Plays whimsical clip from The Fiddler on the Roof to supplement point. Rambles about how instead of realizing 25 years down the road that they love each other, couples now wake up 25 years down the road and realize they don't.

And of course, my personal favorite: To fear God means to actually fear God. Which means that, whatever else, this entire class period was spent psychologically building up to that point and reinforcing a culture of fear into us. Fear that if you don't do what you're told, your marriage will end in divorce. Fear of divorce. Fear of modernity. Fear of democracy. Fear of the secular. Most intolerable of all, though, is Fear of God.

There's a video that the missionaries often play for investigators, a video of Joseph Smith's story, in which Joseph Smith Senior, whilst conversing with a local preacher, is accused of not being a God-Fearing man. He responds by saying "It seems to me that people spend too much time teaching people to fear God, and not enough time teaching them to love Him." And here I am, in a class room on a campus run by the Church espousing that view point listening to a teacher tell me that I ought to really be afraid of God.

Mind you, this isn't isolated to today's lecture, either. This semester is also the semester that included the marvelous lady who told us about the Holy Spirit notifying her of pregnancy at the moment of conception also asking us if we also had, and I quote, "a testimony of the devil." Now sure, "The Greatest Lie the Devil Ever Told" and all that, but seriously? A testimony of the devil? Are we just stupid or are we completely forgetting that there is a power inherent in bearing witness, and that the spirit you bear witness of is the spirit that draws near? I'm not bearing testimony of fucking Satan. I'm not holding as an intrinsic part of my soul and identity a living testament to the power and majesty and works of the enemy of all mankind.

That's quite possibly one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

On a less doctrinal note, our teacher asked us a few weeks back to write about how we felt about our parents. What he neglected to mention is that he'd be reading what we wrote aloud in class. It isn't the most frustrating thing of all time, but in many ways it is many times more uncomfortable. I'm deeply uncomfortable with having something I privately wrote about my parents read to the class without my consent.

And one last complaint, before I go back to skipping FHE because my God why would I willingly choose to spend my time with those people anymore. A few weeks ago prof. made a HUGE stink about how States' Rights no longer exist because federal judges overturned the bans on marriage in Idaho and Utah. Nevermind that States' Rights has long been code for a certain other kind of discrimination, it galls me that this same teacher has yet to shed even a single tear over the trampling of people's rights in Ferguson.

It does not, however, surprise me. And not -just- because I think a large number of people from this area carry subconscious racist tendencies, and not because I desire to slander my teacher's reputation and accuse him of being anything less than an upstanding member of a culture I happen to detest thoroughly, but because the notion that Civil Rights and the Civil Rights Movement have contributed to the downfall of American Society is fully embedded in the fabrics of this class. I shit you not. At the beginning of the semester we had to read some talk called "How We Lost the Plot" and that was the gist of how we'd done lost the plot: We got civil rights and then began prizing individuals over families. And I'll warrant that there is something right to the notion that community could stand to be prized more than it currently is by many a person. I'll warrant that maybe they're right about how this whole No-Fault-Divorce thing they rant about in class all the time really does have some negative externalities.

But you have to be shitting me when you ask me to listen to Mormons of all people complain about Civil Rights. And not just because of the race issues of our checkered past, but because Mormons themselves ought to fucking know better. A group of people for whom an extermination order existed ought to fucking know better.

And that concludes the rant until next Wednesday when I'm sure I'll have new and exciting reasons to hate this class.
 

ronito

Member
I hate to do this man, but you DO know that Ezra Taft Benson taught just that in General Conference:
(from BYU)
http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1569&era=yes
Ezra Taft Benson said:
We must insist that duly authorized legislative investigating committees launch an even more exhaustive study and expose the degree to which secret Communists have penetrated into the civil rights movement.

In a way I can't blame your teacher for being a pre 1990s Mormon cause I heard that stuff up and down, sideways and backwards when I was growing up.

And I get you. You'd think that if any group would understand the importance of civil rights it would be a group of people where it was legal to kill them in Missouri until just a few decades ago.

But then, you'd think that a group that had their definition of marriage pretty much strangled out of them would understand the importance of letting people have their own definition of marriage.

Hang in their Bro. Remember Guardians of the Galaxy. Just suck it up for one more day and you're rich!

Also, went back to the mothership for my wife's grandpa's funeral. Thoughts to share but need a bit more time to formulate them.
 

CorvoSol

Member
No I know that this was taught in days past, and that's a part of the struggle for me. I'm not frustrated in days of yore that we were less than we should have been. I'm upset that we're actively preventing ourselves from being what we can be now.

Because as much as I hate the way things are, I can't shake the belief that we have good to offer, and that if we were working the way we should be, we could be so much better. Like we've got the potential, y'know?

I don't want to speak ill of the Lord's anointed, but one of the only things that keeps me sane is also remembering that those men are as flawed and human as I am. I respect them as my leaders, and I respect both their authority as the Lord's anointed and as the Church leaders, but I emphatically disagree with a few things here and there, so to speak.

I believe in the Twelve and the First Presidency, I really do, and I believe that for the most part their actions are earnest and that they earnestly want what is best for us, but they're not infallible. That notion is one I'd like dearly for us to expunge from our culture, if I could.
 

ronito

Member
Man, Corvo, you remind me so much of myself a few years earlier. So earnest and so hopeful for change the church. I've told you more than once that I admire that about you. Part of me wishes that I could've kept it up but I couldn't have, there was too much, especially since I grew up with the pre-late 90s church the bad stuff was too close for me. Someone once said that what's good about the church isn't unique and what's unique about the church isn't that good. I think once I came to realize that it was sorta over for me. It would've been easier if I had stayed but I just couldn't.

About the prophet. My parents hate him. They don't talk about it. But my dad was first councillor in Venezuela and met Monson several times while Monson was a councillor in the first presidency. Not entirely sure what happened but both my mom and dad really dislike the man. They're doing the typical latino, "Grin and bear it and don't say a word." thing, so I don't know what's up with all that. But my parent's aren't typically hating people, especially when it comes to church leaders so it's sorta surprising.
 

Thaedolus

Member
Corvo, to be honest I think it's a symptom of the problem of the church being led by men who are behind the times, and any "agitation" for change seems to be responded to with a clamp down to assert authority over the membership. I remember about 11 years ago my friend said "dude, 1978 wasn't that long ago. It was ten years after the civil rights movement. Our dads were returned missionaries married in the temple and having kids by then." People were getting excommunicated in 1977 over speaking out against the black priesthood ban. That's insane...and yet, it's still happening when women want the priesthood or others voice support for LGBT rights.

That was something that stuck with me and bugged me for a long time...when I think about liberalism and progressiveness now vs conservatism, I really think about how I wouldn't want to go back in time to any other period than when we live now...the 1950's and 60's weren't the good old days like a lot of people in the leadership of the church probably believe, they sucked. The 70's were bleak and had disco. The 80's..well, were kind of awesome but no internet. The 90's had Windows 95, fuck that. 2000's were GWB years and anti-gay bigotry was still a majority thing.

But really though, can you think of any decade you'd rather go back to in terms of where our country was technologically or when it comes to civil rights? Teen pregnancy is down, alcohol abuse is down, violent crime is down, global war is in decline, on and on markers are getting better over time. While not perfect by any means, society is evolving and improving over time. Yet you've got a leadership who thinks the world is going to hell in a hand basket and keep warning of the catastrophes that are coming our way if we don't turn back.

Guess what? Earthquakes and floods and tsunamis and tornadoes and tragedies always have and always will happen. Embracing backwards-thinking conservatism isn't going to change that or keep us safe. But the church is led by people who think that, and think that they speak for God, so change will be slow and in the form of the older guys dying off and younger generations taking their place and thinking their form of morality is them speaking for God. It will happen over time (it has to, the church has an apostasy problem and they know it), but it will be years and years before they even start to catch up with society.

If you can wait that out, more power to you, but I think you're going to be waiting a while.
 
How do you fight a God? Or rather, how do you fight someone's perception of God? You simply don't, and in most cases I wouldn't dream of doing so, but I confess to balking when a school teacher presumes to know what God thinks of what I do with my spare time between the fifteen hours a week of unimportant nonsense tasks he drops on my lap.

If JRPGs taught me anything you use a saw.

But in all honesty, LDS Church culture (especially the really weirdly distilled Utah version I got in college) is a big part of why I left the church. Even if you ignore all the logical inconsistencies of the faith, the actual culture of the church is just so fucking screwed up that I didn't want to be a part of it. There was no one at church I identified with and no one at church I could trust to talk to about how I felt about it. Even growing up I had the same issue, but it wasn't until college where I had the ability to really choose to distance myself from the culture.

Since quitting the church isn't really a viable option, and you're apparently close to finishing your degree my advice would be to bite your tongue as much as possible and finish out your program. Will it suck? Yes. But the more you open your mouth to people in charge or in power in the church the worse you will make things for yourself in the long run. Finish your degree and get out of Idaho. Then stay away from all things Utah for the rest of your life. Maybe you find a less ridiculous LDS community and end up happy, or maybe you decide to leave the Church. Either way there's not much you can do at the moment except grin and bear it.
 

ronito

Member
We should make a new thread: "Corvo's Adventures in BYU-Idaho"

Sadly, no one outside of the people that already post in this thread will believe any of it is real
 

ronito

Member
Saw this, it's a video of formerly TBM couple and their journey through disaffection that even met with a GA about their disaffection.

http://vimeo.com/112612925

On one hand it's great to see the narrative changing from "Oh you left because you were offended/wanted to sin/were weak/didn't have a testimony" We need more people like this telling their stories.

That being said, these people are easily the most Mormon exmormons I've ever seen.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Continuing my theme of wishing nothing but pain and death upon Family Foundations:

-I have 5 assignments due between now and the last day of school, which is a week and a half from now. One of these assignments is a major time consuming project: a binder full of the propaganda we've been fed all semester that I'm sorely tempted to burn or throw into the trash bin the moment I'm done with it. The binder is hands down the worst, because we had to buy both the actual binder and the propaganda to put in it, plus pay to print out all of the talks that were intentionally left out of it for no clear reason. If you submit the binder in anything but the class approved binder that you can only purchase from the school, you do not receive credit.

Then there's some stupid ass Provident Living Project, wherein I was supposed to do some personal study and daily activity of my choosing on subjects like, I don't know because I don't give a shit anymore but they were all dumb shit like: Fathering: How moms can help! Nevermind that I seriously give 0 fucks about this at this time.

Following that I have to memorize and recite the entire Proclamation to the World. There are like, several thousand words in that document, but if I miss 10 I flunk the assignment. Why in the fuck are we memorizing something in 2014? This isn't 1812.

Also I have to read two more talks from God knows when, mark them, put them into the binder, then write about them in my journal. The journal is included in the binder and is a terribly explained assignment which we are supposed to somehow include the entries with the various sections of the binder despite never having received any instructions on how to do that ever.

"It's a living document!" FUCK YOU.

And then, because this class is some serious bullshit, we'll have a final test, too. You know, on information I assume we were supposed to have learned when my teacher was wasting our fucking time ranting about how Super Mario will lead me to watching Peach pop one ups will lead me to thinking that Senator White Guy is a Koopa overlord and caving his skull in with my steel toed boots.

My favorite test question of the year was: True or False: Anything is permissible in sex as long as both the husband and wife agree to it.

I got it wrong and guess which answer I put.
 

Fathead

Member
I would have answered "any sex act god had with Mary to conceive Jesus is permissible" just to piss the teacher off.

Of course that would likely get you expelled so dont do that.
 

ronito

Member
Honestly, Corvo if I knew someone in the higher up sections of the church I'd totally send them your posts and be like "Want to know why YSAs are leaving the church in droves? Read this."

Again though Corvo, I can't really fault your teacher for being a good pre late 1990s mormon. I mean that's text book good mormon material right there and that was what nearly every religion class I took at BYU was almost exactly like that (with the exception of Old testament which was great). My Book of Mormon teacher simply took 500 scriptures and we'd have to memorize them all. He also held that he was proud of his granddaughter when she said that if the prophet told her that if he said he needed her to be a polygamist that she'd gladly do it and that all depression was caused by not living the gospel. I hated that class, but memorizing scriptures was an easy A.

It's always sorta strange to see when younger people get exposed to his and are like "WTF?!" The church is always changing. But the pace of change has been an order of magnitude faster than before. In a lot of ways that "old church", fire and brimstone, anti-government, anti-sex, somewhat racist church died with Ezra Taft Benson. It's a bit of a problem for the mormons I know that are older, my father in law once said that the church of today isn't the same church of him and his fathers. It's hard because even the church as it is now has a hard time relating to the challenges of today, but the one from pre-Hinckely absolutely has no place in the modern world to all but the most ardent. But the differences in the church between now and earlier is rather large
 

CorvoSol

Member
Honestly, Corvo if I knew someone in the higher up sections of the church I'd totally send them your posts and be like "Want to know why YSAs are leaving the church in droves? Read this."

Again though Corvo, I can't really fault your teacher for being a good pre late 1990s mormon. I mean that's text book good mormon material right there and that was what nearly every religion class I took at BYU was almost exactly like that (with the exception of Old testament which was great). My Book of Mormon teacher simply took 500 scriptures and we'd have to memorize them all. He also held that he was proud of his granddaughter when she said that if the prophet told her that if he said he needed her to be a polygamist that she'd gladly do it and that all depression was caused by not living the gospel. I hated that class, but memorizing scriptures was an easy A.

It's always sorta strange to see when younger people get exposed to his and are like "WTF?!" The church is always changing. But the pace of change has been an order of magnitude faster than before. In a lot of ways that "old church", fire and brimstone, anti-government, anti-sex, somewhat racist church died with Ezra Taft Benson. It's a bit of a problem for the mormons I know that are older, my father in law once said that the church of today isn't the same church of him and his fathers. It's hard because even the church as it is now has a hard time relating to the challenges of today, but the one from pre-Hinckely absolutely has no place in the modern world to all but the most ardent. But the differences in the church between now and earlier is rather large

Haha, regarding the bolded, I forgot that our teacher addressed a student who admitted she struggled with the concept of polygamy by saying that when we were all resurrected the Lord would just kinda expand our minds so we'd get it, and that we only didn't like it now because the Church was against it now.

Which sort of doesn't jive on multiple fronts, but mostly I'm hoping the Eternal God is willing to actually explain things to me, rather than just kinda blowin' my mind, if that makes sense.

I think you're right that things now are very different from how they were, or at least, that's how it sounds to me. I take that as a sign things will get better, rather than the constant droning of my elders that that's a sign things are getting worse.

It's just sort of grating to have to stare it in the face and not say anything so I can save my own skin and graduate, though.
 

CorvoSol

Member
So I finally walked out of Family Foundations today, and I think I did so for a good reason. The experience has certainly left me feeling good.

Let me back up. Today was a large group meeting, meaning all the students from all the classes were together in the Chapel, being Lectured about God knows what. The mumbling speaker up front is talking about how Adam and Eve's marriage was Eternal when he proposes what I guess is a normal scenario for LDS young people; though I think it was typically contrived.

You go home for Christmas and attend a party, where you meet up with your Non-Member friend, who tells you he and his girlfriend are thinking about moving in together. What do you say to him [to persuade him otherwise]?

The first person to respond offered a standardized statement about the importance of family and how things are sacred and not meant to be shared until marriage, and the speaker responds with the sort of smug satisfaction that you will definitely not have soured your friendship of many years, but left an important mark on this young man's psyche.

The second young man to speak, however, makes the unbelievably daring move of saying he would support his friend, and tell his friend that he supported him. The professor, dully shocked at anyone daring to ever think of supporting someone's non-mormon lifestyle on the basis of friendship, then sets about handling this situation in what I can only tell you is the single most repulsive thing I have ever seen a Mormon do.

"Do you think him and his girlfriend moving in together is a good thing?"
"Maybe not from our standpoint, but to him it probably is."
"But do you think it won't be bad at all?"
"Well I-"
"Then you don't really love your friend."
"I guess not, sir." Says the young man, drops the mic, grabs his bag and leaves.

I was right out the door with, him, too. Because the above conversation is an abbreviation. This dude spent a good two minutes grilling the guy and forcing him to say it would be a bad thing and that he didn't love his friend. No sooner had that begun than my bags were packed and I was out the door.

The good thing is that I was able to talk to this young man afterward, and his story, and his friend's, were remarkably like my own. A returned missionary who is struggling to find a balance between what he feels is right, what he was raised to believe, and what this iron faced class demands he claim is right. I can't really tell you guys the comfort I took in meeting someone, face to face, who was going through exactly the same issue I was. We only spoke briefly, but his courage to stand up for what he felt was right, coupled with our shared struggle, really, really helped me out today.

Because make no mistake, what happened in that room was wrong. I don't care if this young man was in the wrong and that professor was in the right, no way in Hell should that have been the professor's solution. No. Way. In. Hell. Not a chance. And I'm glad I wasn't the only person there who felt that way. I'm happy because I know beyond doubt now that there are others like me, trying their damnedest to get through this without breaking.
 

Fathead

Member
Good on you corvo. Church is supposed to be uplifting. This class exists to drill sergeant stupid quasi doctrine into your head.

If you face any consequences for doing the right thing dont back down.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Good on you corvo. Church is supposed to be uplifting. This class exists to drill sergeant stupid quasi doctrine into your head.

If you face any consequences for doing the right thing dont back down.

See, that's the funniest part. That situation was so easy for that teacher to turn around, to change, to avoid the exact scenario that happened, that it's almost surprising to see that it happened. Was it really so hard to find a peaceable conclusion to that while also helping the student see his point of view? Is that not the very scenario the teacher was trying to thrust us into?

And yet, rather than finding this way to maintain peace and teach, the teacher instead chose to humiliate and brow beat a student in front of 100+ of his peers. It's absolutely ridiculous. Completely forgetting the whole "with firmness and then showing a greater love so he does not judge you his enemy." Altogether eschewing everything I have ever been taught about how you're supposed to correct someone. To call it Old Testament is an insult.

So far the only consequence I can think of is that I left before I could prove attendance, putting my unexcused absence list at like, 2 or 3. So I have to attend the next 3 periods or I still automatically fail the course. Which is insane, but there you have it.
 

ronito

Member
You should prove attendance by saying "Yeah I was there, that was the class where the professor was an ass to a student."

Honestly though, good job in standing up for the right thing. Just goes to show what I've said many times that when you have a religion that is steeped in ritual and rules it becomes about the rituals and the rules and that's exactly what's happened here. Your professor is in love with the rules and not the religion. Sadly, there's no shortage of these types in the church and they do not react well when faced with opposition/change ergo why you see him teaching stuff that was what the church taught 20+ years ago.
 

CorvoSol

Member
You should prove attendance by saying "Yeah I was there, that was the class where the professor was an ass to a student."

Honestly though, good job in standing up for the right thing. Just goes to show what I've said many times that when you have a religion that is steeped in ritual and rules it becomes about the rituals and the rules and that's exactly what's happened here. Your professor is in love with the rules and not the religion. Sadly, there's no shortage of these types in the church and they do not react well when faced with opposition/change ergo why you see him teaching stuff that was what the church taught 20+ years ago.

See, as much as I don't like my teacher, this was actually not my teacher. This was yet another teacher. I begin to fear that the entire Religion department is this way, and I don't want to say that because that's a lot of people, teachers I like, I'd be painting. I know there are teachers at school who flat out don't like this or that part of the school, because I've had plenty say as much to our classes, but I've actually never heard opposition for this course before today.

Like I said, though, I'm just happy I wasn't alone. I was going to stand up and leave at that remark, but I felt better knowing I wasn't the only one doing it. Like the guys I talked to today said: they just don't want to hear anything other than the programmed answers. That this teacher wasn't equipped to handle this answer at all speaks volumes to me. What good is any of this if we can't confront something as mundane as "I'd support my friend" with less than humiliation and scorn?
 

ronito

Member
I had some professors that I thought were beyond that in BYU where I was like "Yeah these guys suck but these other guys are cool and get it." Only to find later that nah, in the end they were just like the others when pushed. It's the same with people, sometimes you think someone is cool and all that and then suddenly they drop something like your professor on you out of nowhere, it's almost like finding your old friend is actually racist.

Sad thing is, there's nothing that you, or anyone, can do to change their view. If they see you walk out or distance yourself from them they'll just think that you're being mislead by an evil spirit or your pride or something.
 

CorvoSol

Member
FWIW, I'm bearing it well enough, I suppose. Had a good long talk with my dad about this class last night, and I'm extraordinarily grateful that he agreed with the way I saw things. The story seems to be making the rounds around the school, too, as I was telling it to someone this morning and a girl nearby was like "Was that yesterday? My roommate was telling me about it." I don't expect anything to come of it, but it would be nice if this professor would at least realize he'd handled the situation really poorly.

Turning to more positive news, I was wearing a jersey from my mission yesterday and a dude stopped me to ask if I'd served there. We got to talking and found out he and I served the same mission, just that he served several years after me. It was cool to share and compare stories of our experiences there.

BYUI for me is really about looking for the good needles in the bad haystacks, I guess.
 

Yoritomo

Member
Yeah I had the same thing happen with a local friend who has since moved to Utah. We hung out occasionally and for years would just randomly chat about stuff, then a few months before he left to Utah we discover we served the same mission, same language, just 5 years apart, at that point I had known him for at least 4 years. His wife taught my kid piano lessons, etc...
 

ronito

Member
I swear it's like no one at the church has ever heard of the Romeo/Juliet syndrome that the more you make someone verboten the more appealing it becomes.

http://www.millennialmormons.com/10-terrifying-things-know-pornography/

1. Pornography is destroying society, and will continue to if we don’t do something about it.

Perhaps the quickest way to tame and tranquilize an unruly nation is to turn its citizens into sex addicts: for just as children are easily taken in by predators who tempt them with candy, most people are only too pleased to live under governments that offer them the seductive pleasures of porn: that is to say, cheap and easy orgasms as substitutes for happiness. – Dr. Lasha Darkmoon

We spoke to Brittany Plowthow, founder of We Are One In Three (a site dedicated to helping victims of sexual assault, as well as educating people) about pornography. She said this:

“We have a culture where we don’t talk about sex because it’s uncomfortable or viewed as sinful, but where young men and women are viewing pornography is massive amounts. (Utah being the state with the highest rate of paid pornography subscriptions.) We have the perfect storm for a society that feeds the cancer of rape culture. It breaks my heart that Utah is leading the country when it comes to rape and sexual assault. Utah’s rate is 10% higher than the national average. You cannot separate that from Utah’s pornography consumption levels. They feed each other.”

(If you live in the Provo/Orem area, We Are One In Three will be hosting a booth at UVU’s Elizabeth Smart event from 12-1 on the 11th December.)


2. When the pleasure center that is activated by porn was activated in rats, they starved to death because they became so addicted.

This is truly one of the most terrifying things I’ve ever heard about pornography. Not only would the rats commit pornography-inflicted suicide, mothers would fail to tend to their babies in order to keep pressing the button that stimulated their pleasure centers. Read “The Neuroscience of Pleasure” for more about this.


3. Porn has a terrible effect on your real-life sex life.

You’ve heard of Pavlov’s Dogs, right? Ok. So apply that experiment to pornography use, or a lack of. If you keep the Law of Chastity and don’t watch pornography, your pleasure centers will activate around your spouse, meaning your sex life can be healthy and happy. If you’ve exposed yourself to pornography on multiple occasions, your brain is used to the rush of chemicals that occur in your brain from doing so. So the more you watch pornography, the less your spouse will be attractive to you. It’s for the same reason that pornography makes you sexually lazy.

Pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it. – Naomi Wolf, “The Porn Myth”


4. The majority of mainstream pornography is violent toward women.

We are now bringing up a generation of boys on cruel, violent porn. – Julie Bindel, author of “Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality”

Not only will this make sex nothing more than a physical act for pornography viewers, it increases violence in our society in general, especially rape culture. How can we expect young men to grow up properly understanding that rape is wrong when they’re watching it regularly online?

Studies have shown that continued exposure to pornography has serious negative effects on beliefs about sexuality in general, and on attitudes toward women in particular. They also have shown that pornography desensitizes people to rape as a criminal offense.

Said Brittany; “Ted Bundy, perhaps the most infamous and violent serial killers in recent history, credited his romanticization with rape and sexual violence began with his early exposure to pornography and his following addiction to it.”


5. Porn makes people more selfish.

All of this causes a spiral of selfishness where the person ignores his spouse’s needs and is focused only on getting what he wants, and getting it instantly. Often this manifests itself in other areas of the relationship as well, where the spouse becomes annoyed if they have to wait for something, or if they don’t get what they want. Porn has sold them the message: you deserve pleasure when you want it. You shouldn’t have to work to get what you want. Your needs are paramount. – Top 10 Effects of Porn on Your Brain, Your Marriage, and Your Sex Life


6. Pornography is one of Satan’s most powerful weapons right now.

I’ve read women’s magazines that advise their readers to watch pornography with their partners to “spice up your sex life”. I hate you, Cosmopolitan. It’s an absolutely horrific joke that society is so accepting of pornography, despite the TONS of research that supports its negative effects.


7. The effects of pornography extend far beyond just sex-related stuff.

Young men who become addicted to porn neglect their schoolwork, spend huge amounts of money they don’t have, become isolated from others, and often suffer depression. – Gail Dines


8. Pornography literally changes the wiring of the brain.

“As men fall deeper into the mental habit of fixating on [pornographic images], the exposure to them creates neural pathways. Like a path is created in the woods with each successive hiker, so do the neural paths set the course for the next time an erotic image is viewed. Over time these neural paths become wider as they are repeatedly traveled with each exposure to pornography. They become the automatic pathway through which interactions with woman are routed….They have unknowingly created a neurological circuit that imprisons their ability to see women rightly as created in God’s image.” (Wired For Intimacy, 85).

Softcore pornography has a very negative effect on men as well. The problem with softcore pornography is that it’s voyeurism—it teaches men to view women as objects rather than to be in relationships with women as human beings. – Dr. Gary Brooks, Texas A&M



9. Pornography makes men less able to function properly in regular life.

Pornography leaves men desensitized to both outrage and to excitement, leading to an overall diminishment of feeling and eventually to dissatisfaction with the emotional tugs of everyday life…Eventually they are left with a confusing mix of supersized expectations about sex and numbed emotions about women…When a man gets bored with pornography, both his fantasy and real worlds become imbued with indifference. The real world often gets really boring…” (Pornified, 90, 91).



10. The average age of exposure to pornography is just 9 years old. In 2012, it was 11.

By 16, the majority of teens have been exposure to “hardcore pornography”.

The average age of pornography exposure is getting younger and younger—to the point where we may wonder if it’s even possible for it to drop anymore.
Let's take these 1 by 1 shall we?

1. Pornography is destroying society, and will continue to if we don’t do something about it.

No it's not you drama queen. As far back as men could draw there was pornography. If you think you have it bad now think back to the Etruscans or the Greeks or Romans. You wanna talk about how pervasive porn is? Last I checked I didn't have to worry about my kids seeing porn when we went to the water park or the gym or even the restaurant. Shut up about it.

2. When the pleasure center that is activated by porn was activated in rats, they starved to death because they became so addicted.

And that same pleasure center is activated by other things like sex and exercise and other activities. Maybe we should ban those too?

3. Porn has a terrible effect on your real-life sex life.

This should be reworded to be "An immature approach to porn has a terrible effect on your sex life." When people have mature expectations and approach to porn it can be beneficial to a sex life in spicing it up. Now yes, if you use to find faults in your partner or make you unsatisified it can lead to problems.


4. The majority of mainstream pornography is violent toward women.

The point they're making is that porn leads to violence but then ignore that rapes have decreased as porn has been more prevelant. Further it claims that a majority of pron is violent? I don't believe that either, or question the idea of what constitutes as "violent" I will agree there is violent stuff out there but it's just like violent/gory games. There's plenty of games out there if you don't want to play a violent one. Further still, it ignores that not a small percentage of people that view violent porn have been shown to be women. Are you then going to say these women are going to turn to rape as well?

5. Porn makes people more selfish.

When it comes to sex, yeah, some people could stand to be a little more selfish. I mean what they're complaining about is that people want to be satisfied? Is that now a bad thing? I get it, that its a problem if you can only orgasm from fisting, but again an average person with a mature approach to things isn't going to have this problem and wanting to be sexually satisfied is not a vice and anyone that tells you otherwise is using sex as a weapon.

6. Pornography is one of Satan’s most powerful weapons right now.
For a church that likes to say "Whatever a husband and wife do behind closed doors is their business" it sure likes to complain about what husbands and wives do behind closed doors.

7. The effects of pornography extend far beyond just sex-related stuff.

Consider that >90% of men use porn within a given 6 week period. If what this thing is saying that pron causes people to neglect finances and studies is like saying "Well Bob here neglected his studies and he drinks Coke. Therefore coke is to blame." If it really did then you'd expect >90% of men to neglect studies and finances. That's not to say that it doesn't happen. But it is to say it's a HUGE misrepresentation to say that viewing porn leads to neglecting your duties when there's such a huge number of men that do it and such a tiny relative number of men that get addicted to that level. As to the whole thing that porn leads to depression, well I'd argue that people telling young men that porn leads to them becoming murders, bad lovers, addicts and rapists is most likely doing that then the porn itself. You want proof? Go to someone that hasn't been told that porn is terrible and ask them how they feel after they watch porn, they'll likely say that they feel relaxed. Ask a mormon how they feel, they'll say terrible, and worthless. If porn was doing that in of itself the person that was never taught that porn was bad will have felt the same way too. To me, people like this saying that porn leads to depress is no different than the parents that tell their daughters that being overweight is bad and that fat people are bad then saying "Being overweight leads to depression."

8. Pornography literally changes the wiring of the brain.
Boy are these people going to be mad when they learn about brain elasticity. EVERYTHING rewires your brain if you do it enough.

9. Pornography makes men less able to function properly in regular life.
Again, if true 90% of men wouldn't be able to function properly in life.


10. The average age of exposure to pornography is just 9 years old. In 2012, it was 11.

this one I don't really disagree with this. Yes, people are being exposed to porn earlier. Ergo it's important to make sure they have proper sex ed and healthy attitude towards sex and, yes, porn, are instilled instead of brow beating them about things they don't understand. Of course I remember reading somewhere that in the 70s it was 13 so, it's not like it used like 30. Of course I did hear that number (about the exposure age being 13) in conference or some church talk, so it could be a bit suspect.
 

Thaedolus

Member
How did this awful clickbaity site even become a thing? It seems like it's run by a few college kids who figured out how to write shitty clickbait articles to get hits...that's about it.

I'm going to write an article called 10 shocking facts about clickbait articles which are destroying the internet.
 

ronito

Member
All I saw in that was Ted fucking Bundy again. It galls me that the words of a serial killer are given such credit.

I personally find it funny when they bring up the whole "Ted Bundy" thing. I'm just like "Yeah, you know what else Ted Bundy spent a lot of time on? Being mormon. But you're not talking about that are you?"
 

ronito

Member
I will heartily admit, and I'd believe I'm far from the only one here that can say that the church has honestly been more detrimental to my sexual/mental health than porn ever was.
 

Thaedolus

Member
I will heartily admit, and I'd believe I'm far from the only one here that can say that the church has honestly been more detrimental to my sexual/mental health than porn ever was.

100% agree. I'm several years removed and still talking about going to therapy...
 

Thaedolus

Member
Dan Deceuster, I'm a Mormon

As if I couldn't tell from the smile in the picture...sidebar: is there something in particular about the LDS persuasion that makes their smiles particularly "gummy?" I swear more often than not I can pick a Mormon out from the way they smile, before other considerations like clothing (capris...gag). Then again, I see more examples from the Utah variety than my own family or friends from other areas. Maybe I should do a research paper on it.

Anyway, the article is a perfect representation of how we all view the world through a lens, which changes our perception of reality when it comes through on the other side. Said lens can blur two completely different things like playing sports on Sunday and a lifetime of sexual frustration and loneliness, and make someone like Dan here think they're the same thing: examples of obedience.

My wife is volunteering to help a couple whose baby was born with CP so bad that he's a quadriplegic. The couple is young and overworked and stressed trying to balance his exercises and work full time with school. She says they're being run ragged, and their son will need a lifetime of therapy.

But today I woke up an hour before my alarm went off and I'm feeling kind of tired, so you know, we all have our struggles in life #trials.
 

Thaedolus

Member
Yeah, I'm just wary of going digging when, on a day-to-day basis, it's not really a big deal...but once in a while there's a "trigger" type thing where it's really just aggravating. I also don't want to drag my wife down into it...but yeah, it's probably an eventual thing I'll go through when school is done, money isn't as big a deal, etc.
 

ronito

Member
Well, the church made the news again and by common consent no less

http://www.ibtimes.com/mormons-cia-...-bankrupt-because-involvement-torture-1750303

A Mormon blogger is questioning whether the Senate report on the CIA’s use of torture is a condemnation not just of torture itself but also of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because two distinguished Mormons -- Bruce Jessen and Jay Bybee -- had prominent roles in the CIA’s detention and interrogation program under the George W. Bush administration.

“We contributed to this … Our brothers did this,” Crawford, also known as John C., wrote in a post on a Mormon blog site called By Common Consent, which was started in 2004 by a group of LDS church members to post and discuss Mormon topics.

Crawford wrote that Jessen, a former Mormon bishop, was paid $80 million for drafting the guidelines that developed the torture techniques used on suspected terrorists following the Sept. 11, 2001; and that Bybee, a federal judge at the time, signed the memorandums giving the CIA's controversial interrogation program and its brutal methods legal authorization.

“If we, as a people, are creating good men who do not understand that it is inherently wrong to torture even the worst offenders, then we are not doing a good job at creating good men. If we create men who understand that torture is wrong in the abstract, but when faced with the pressure of keeping a job, the greed of potential government largesse, the opportunity to justify revenge and torture in the name of national security, they fold and authorize it, we are not doing a good job at creating good men. This should not be a position for debate. I’m disgusted that it ever was,” Crawford wrote in the post published Wednesday.

Mormons, also known as Latter-day Saints, are heavily represented in national law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Returned Mormon missionaries are valued for their foreign language skills, abstinence from drugs and alcohol and respect for authority, a CIA recruiter reportedly told the Salt Lake Tribune.

Crawford concluded that if Jessen and Bybee, who are considered to be “good Mormons” by the church, represent the moral judgment of the church’s best and brightest, then “we are morally bankrupt.”

Eric Hawkins, a spokesman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said people -- not the church to which they may belong -- are accountable for their own actions. “To suggest that any action by any individual should be laid at the feet of the faith they proclaim to follow is insupportable,” Hawkins wrote to International Business Times in an email Friday.
I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, people are responsible for their own actions. On the other, one of them was a Bishop called by God and further the church sells itself as the way to learn morality. If two members can have such a lapse in morality then isn't that then an indictment that the thing teaching that is a bad teacher? If two of my guitar students couldn't even hold a guitar properly you'd consider me a bad teacher. Especially if I had made one a teacher of other guys. I know there will be no discipline against these guys, not like they said something against the church or anything like that.
 

Thaedolus

Member
My question: did the church net 8 million in tithes from the torture program? I don't think you can hold it accountable for the actions of each member, but...did it benefit in terms of millions in tithing money?

I also made the case once in the MTC that the church made money off porn because Mariotts used to have porn and those profits were eventually tithed...my teachers were not impressed
 

ronito

Member
The church has certainly made money off of porn. I used to work for the Dish Network who (at least then) made most of their money from PPV porn. So in essence I was facilitating porn sales by helping their sales and in turn I paid thousands in tithing on the money they paid me. I told this to my bishop and he said not to think about it too much.
 

Fathead

Member
All money is dirty if you play that game long enough. I get paid from money people use to pay their monthly bills for their smartphones, which they use to watch porn.


And i can't blame the church for two idiots torturing people. Not unless they were GAs. I'd be pretty pissed though if they were in my ward though.

Speaking of which, executive secretary in the neighboring ward made a scene in one of the vzw stores by being racist. He is now facing a disciplinary council. I was pissed when i heard and told the bishop that called me to throw the book at him for being an idiot and making me look bad.
 

Fathead

Member
I work for verizon wireless. The es of the neighboring ward to me went into a vzw store and made an ass of himself being a racist idiot. The manager called me about it because im the only other mormon he knows.

Anyway someone must have told the bishop of the guys ward because the bishop called me asked if i knew what happened. The dude is facing a disciplinary hearing for it lol.

I said throw the book at him.
 

CorvoSol

Member
Yeah I don't want to be held accountable for the misdeeds of others simply because we share the same faith. Like Fathead said, if it was GAs it would cast worse, but if it's just two guys, whatever. And even with GAs, I'm not sure how much I would let it reflect beyond a certain point.

I hate to sound preachy or cliche, but like, I don't think Christianity is to blame for Judas selling Jesus out, you know? That seems counterproductive.
 

ronito

Member
Yeah I don't want to be held accountable for the misdeeds of others simply because we share the same faith. Like Fathead said, if it was GAs it would cast worse, but if it's just two guys, whatever. And even with GAs, I'm not sure how much I would let it reflect beyond a certain point.

I hate to sound preachy or cliche, but like, I don't think Christianity is to blame for Judas selling Jesus out, you know? That seems counterproductive.

Yeah, like I said, I can see it both ways.
But I am sorta surprised to see that criticism coming from By Common Consent.
 
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