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[ronito]

I wouldn't worry about using the "cult" word with the church.
I mean really even at best the church is very cult like. I mean think of it this way, Do people call themselves "ex-catholics" or "ex baptists". Not really. They just move on. But Mormons, like with Jehova's Witness or other cult like organizations need to vent and heal.

In other news, Dehlin is appealing his excommunication

My excommunication appeal dated March 10, 2015 can be found at this link. It includes an accompanying brief written in support of my appeal written by my close friends Nadine Hansen and Kate Kelly.

For the record, I appealed for the following reasons:

1) Having now experienced the excommunication process, I consider it to be more inhumane, and more medieval than I could have imagined.

2) I believe that the church violated its own rules and procedures with the process, and feel like they should be held accountable for this.

3) I feel like I want the First Presidency to either explicitly support or reject the decision, for accountability’s sake, and for closure’s sake.

Many have asked why I included Kate Kelly in my appeal letter. It is for three main reasons: 1) she is a dear friend, 2) she understands the painful and barbaric nature of excommunication better than anyone, and 3) she is a great lawyer.

Sincere thanks to all my friends and listeners for the support over the past year. While this has been a very difficult ordeal for our family, your encouragement and support has made a world of difference.

Sincerely,
John and Margi Dehlin

Like practically everything he's done I like it and hate it.

I love that he's calling out the First presidency to take a stance. Although, honestly why would they? They have deniability by playing the "local leadership" card.

But I hate putting Kate Kelly on there. What exactly does he hope to accomplish more than name dropping?

 

[Thaedolus]

Like practically everything he's done I like it and hate it.

A good way of putting it for me too. I read the transcript of the August meeting and I thought John was being both awesome in calling out the stake president, and disingenuous when he was dodging certain things he's said by asking for sources. Regardless of the SP's sources, John knows he said certain things and made his position clear on them.

I like the fact he's making the church do this, but I also feel he's positioning himself as some sacrificial lamb when his membership really likely means little and less to him. I think I'll be able to appreciate him and his work (which has been amazing) more when he's gotten all this drama behind him.

 

[Doodis]

While I think John plays up more drama than is necessary, his podcast was certainly a lifeline for me while I transitioned out, so I personally have to give the guy a some slack.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

Obviously, there are valid complaints and poor experiences, but stuff like "when we were Mormon, we always needed to find other Mormons. Now that we have left the church, we relish talking to anyone." and "I have more friends now" have less to do with the church than a bowl of lime jello.

People like Dehlin and Kate Kelly actually strengthen my resolve in the church. Especially seeing them act a fool after or while they are being excommunicated for obviously going against the leadership in the church and many of its fundamental teachings. They could not answer yes to many of the temple interview questions, so why they want to maintain their membership for anything more than to thumb their noses at the church and is leadership is beyond me, except that they crave notoriety.

"this recently excommunicated and known agitator wrote me a great letter supporting my fight against excommunication."lol. That is the worst supporting recommendation ever and must be deliberately childish or purposefully ignorant of its intention and underlying meaning.

Being the financial secretary of my ward is insanely eye opening as well to the discrepancy of how the church is perceived by many inside and outside of the church. This on top of seeing my dad as bishop and uncle as an apostle.

 

[Brianemone]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

. Perfect!

Are you referring to how the church affected my social outlook and entire world view or about being lied to for 27 years? Which one of those was my problem?

 

[Thaedolus]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

Bruh, our experiences are not unique. The lies I was taught to teach others as a missionary weren't my fault or my problem. The treatment of blacks and LGBT and other marginalized groups isn't my fault or my problem. The lack of evidence for any of the truth claims of the church isn't my fault or my problem. The persecution complex indoctrinated into me as a child wasn't my fault or my problem.

Are you kidding me man? We can agree to disagree on our beliefs, but don't lay the blatant falsehoods and damaging mentalities taught by the LDS church at our feet.

As for the discrepancy between how you see things and how we see things, review the allegory of the cave

 

[Laurentius]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

Nope. I am not taking the blame for the lies the church told me, and the years of self hatred it put me through.

 

[Fathead]

The last 4 posts are the exact kind of bullshit this thread is supposed to avoid.

 

[Doodis]

I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

This is a real jack-ass thing to say. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but it certainly belittles those of us that have been through hell after finding out about faith-destroying historical facts the church has quietly hid under the rug.

 

[Brianemone]

The last 4 posts are the exact kind of bullshit this thread is supposed to avoid.

Avoid standing up for myself? Alteredbeast made a dick comment.

 

[Thaedolus]

The last 4 posts are the exact kind of bullshit this thread is supposed to avoid.

But but...

Really, I don't think I'd turn around and tell AlteredBeast "I feel like you'd leave the church if you had the intellectual integrity and honesty to discard the social, familial, and in-group pressures to stay in a club that inflates your sense of self-worth and importance in the world." It might be how I really feel on the inside (maybe?) but I realize saying something like that is akin to taking a metaphorical shit on the dinner table around which this conversation is being had.

 

[Doodis]

Now that it's been an hour and a half and we're all friends again, I'd like to hear more about this:

Being the financial secretary of my ward is insanely eye opening as well to the discrepancy of how the church is perceived by many inside and outside of the church. This on top of seeing my dad as bishop and uncle as an apostle.

I'm honestly very curious about what you're alluding to here.

 

[ronito]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

Pollyanna said something guys!

And right after we had someone in here about how civil we all were

 

[ronito]

The last 4 posts are the exact kind of bullshit this thread is supposed to avoid.

Hulk of all people should know, you don't kick someone in the crotch then tell them it's their fault and expect to get away with it.

 

[Thaedolus]

Hey look at that, Chrome's GIF issues seems to be resolved.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-utah-anti-discrimination-bill-20150312-story.html

The church taking steps forward or is this a non story?

 

[ronito]

I don't view this too much as a step forward. I think they're just giving a little to get a lot.

"Look we'll say that people discriminating against you is bad and illegal. So long as we're excluded from that."

Personally I think the church is trying to insulate itself against civil rights lawsuits.

 

[CorvoSol]

Today I ordered what I thought was chocolate vanilla swirl, but it was coffee vanilla swirl

tell my mommy i'm sorry i won't be going to heaven

 

[ronito]

You can hang with me in the Telestial kingdom.

 

[CorvoSol]

You can hang with me in the Telestial kingdom.

I'm pretty sure I've had tea like, four times since getting here, but I don't even know which tea is okay and which isn't anymore because tea rules actively vary from continent to continent. Outer Darkness for me.

I'm glad they at least told us upfront "expect to break the word of wisdom a few times while you're here."

 

[ronitoswife]

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

That would be a valid statement if we were talking about just a handful of people here. But we're not. I don't think you can really ignore and say "it's not the church it's you" when there are thousands of people out there expressing that they went through and felt similar things to what we have, just because you never experienced it yourself. Your experiences don't define the church. My experiences may also not define the church but that doesn't mean that they don't hold any validity. When you have such a vast amount of people speaking out and sharing similar stories and experiences from all around the globe it might be worth considering that perhaps where there is smoke there is also fire.

 

[AlteredBeast]

That would be a valid statement if we were talking about just a handful of people here. But we're not. I don't think you can really ignore and say "it's not the church it's you" when there are thousands of people out there expressing that they went through and felt similar things to what we have, just because you never experienced it yourself. Your experiences don't define the church. My experiences may also not define the church but that doesn't mean that they don't hold any validity. When you have such a vast amount of people speaking out and sharing similar stories and experiences from all around the globe it might be worth considering that perhaps where there is smoke there is also fire.

I agree with you mostly. I am not talking points of doctrine, the shadier parts of the church's past and present, etc. I am talking about taking every excuse at getting offended at something a local or worldwide leader said and taking that as gospel. Some people are looking for reasons to be mad and get hurt and it can cause them to leave the church faster than the more sensible reasons out there.

Like people who were disgusted that Kate Kelly and Dehl were excommunicated apparently cannot see how they publically and bitterly fight against church doctrine, church leadership and with the way God would setup His church. No surprise that the church doesn't feel you are a poison to active members and those investigating the church...

People who are surprised and disgusted by the church's opposition to what it sees as sinful behavior. I knew members in Peru who refused to go to church because of some gossip that happened. Sorry, lady or sir, but that is not a valid excuse to not go to church if you do in fact still believe... Shame on those hurtful members/leaders/etc who participate in those hurtful activities, but how we react to situations we are put in is what we are judged on.

etc.

 

[ronitoswife]

It still seems like you're playing the "you got offended card" when at times there are valid reasons and they can be valid reasons on top of doctrinal issues and that doesn't make them less true or hurtful. I can see how someone refusing to go to church over gossip would sound silly. But that scenario that you've presented doesn't define the vast majority of people that leave the church.

Also, keep in mind that many people (myself included) don't go into the deep details of why they left (because most people don't want to hear it and they belittle it too) and they're perfectly fine reasons. But when you're out of the church you tend to look back and see all these things that were frankly not OK, or even downright toxic. And while they were not reasons for my departure when people like me bring it up, we hear stuff like "seems like it must be a problem with you and not the church!"

Your belief in the church isn't simple. It's multi-faceted, and saying something like "I believe the church because one time I needed to find my keys and I prayed and I found them!" would be a silly way to judge your belief. At the same time, taking an experience that someone has and judging their disaffection by that is similarly silly. I feel that unless you know the exact reasons why people left then you have no place to victim blame.

About Kelly and Dehlin, you probably don't understand because you don't understand their plight. Contrary to popular belief Dehlin was instrumental in helping many people stay in the church, one of our good friends is such a person. She felt for decades that there was no place for someone like her (strong, independent, opinionated, working woman with a masters in physics) in the church and Dehlin personally helped her reconcile what she knew with what she believed and find her place in the church. And for the church to say there's no place for someone like Dehlin she's afraid there's no place for someone like her. It's not too hard to see why so many people are so upset by this.

 

[Thaedolus]

Do people leave for dumb reasons? Yes. Joseph Smith doesn't cease to be a prophet because a bishop or stake president is a jerk, so it would be dumb to leave the church over an issue like that.

That being said, I'd say someone leaving over something like that is extremely rare compared to those who leave over discovering how much they were taught was blatantly false. I know I only ever had good bishops and stake presidents and my home ward was like a family to me, which made my exit extremely difficult to say the least. I had to stand up for what I believed, however, and sacrificing the relationships I had with those people and my family was a bitter pill to swallow, which is why it's so annoying when someone wants to brush aside all that and pretend I am to blame or that my reasons were superficial.

If you want to maintain some level of decorum, you might respect that the choice to leave is not an easy one, is often fraught with all sorts of difficulties, and people sacrifice a lot to do so. Dismissing that decision as a reaction to a dumb offense isn't appreciated (besides, I don't get offended)

As for John Dehlin and Kate Kelly, they're people of conscience. I don't always agree with how they handle things or what they've done, but I do respect them for sticking to what they believe. I especially respect Dehlin for speaking up and being an advocate for LGBT and disaffected people, despite the blowback. He's getting a PhD in clinical psychology for crying out loud, he knows what he's talking about more than the business guys who run the church and are making these decisions which affect peoples lives. Utah is one of the national leaders in suicides in young demographics. This is literally life and death that he's dealing with, and he's doing the best he can to help.

If his unorthodox views are enough to kick him out of the club and stigmatize him in the community, well, I guess that shows where the priorities of the leadership are: not in helping its own members, but in enforcing submission and obedience. I'm sure that's what the leadership believes is the right thing to do, which is why I say they're not men of God and to hell with them.

 

[ronito]

You know, the whole "the problem is with you" card is really used quite a lot in the church. I mean I've seen plenty of people that when confronted with the whole "Why would anyone choose to be gay? They lose their friends, family, religion and many times even their livelihood." they reply that "Well people chose to be gay because the love the attention"

Same thing here. Leaving the church was easily one of the most painful things in my life, lost most friends and even the friends I did somehow keep me at arms length or view me as "broken". And the fallout was huge. I mean I minored in religion at BYU, a not insubstantial amount of time was spent studying the church in depth and then to leave was immense. So to say "Well maybe you chose to leave because you're just messed up." That's a slap in the face and a poor tactic that's more inline with a junior high debate club than anywhere else.

Really it's one of those thought stopping fallacies. Also, I think it has to do with the church being very different now than it was pre Hinckley. I grew up hearing things like people's skin gets whiter the more righteous they get, or that Jesus was conceived via physical sex, or being told that oral is an abomination, or being told that you shouldn't even date outside of your race. All those things were a matter of course and utterly uncontraversial. But to state those things now people look at you like your hair is on fire. I mean the mormon church doesn't even sell the book "Mormon Doctrine" anymore. In many ways the church I dealt with growing up is almost a completely different church than it is now.

 

[Yoritomo]

One thing I realized recently that I don't do anymore is wonder if people are in my group or not. I just went on a cruise with my wife and met a lot of new and interesting people...not once did I wonder to myself if they were LDS or not, or have some other trait that made them "in my group." We'd simply share a table, strike up a conversation, and have ourselves a good time. I remember thinking, when I was Mormon, how nice it is to meet another Mormon because you immediately have something in common with them. I never realized how easy it is to just meet and accept new people, different or not, until recent years.

Yup. Wife and I were worried it'd be hard to make friends without the ready made religious and social franchise that is our local ward.

Turns out you can just be friends with your neighbors. (I admit this is way easier if you're not in a mormon majority area like a significant portion of Utah) Who woulda thunk it. I've also learned that you can usually get neighbors to help you move stuff at a moments notice if you pay them in beer.

Interestingly enough, my experiences have always run so contrary to what you guys went through as children, adolescents and adults. I feel like a large part of your problems with the church are more about you and less about the church.

I knew that I was done with the church the day I could read opinions and facts that explicitly deny the truthfulness of the church without feeling the need to defend the organization. Essentially, when I no longer felt cognitive dissonance regarding the correlated narrative when exposed to the historical narrative, I knew there was no going back. That realization is when I finally came clean to my wife with what I had been going through.

For that past year comments like yours would provoke in me feelings in somewhat of the opposite direction. I would feel the need to justify myself or my actions. Essentially it would make me doubt my doubts. I'd dive back in with a small piece of me hoping to find that I was wrong and I just wasn't looking at things the right way.

I read your statement and felt nothing. I just wanted to mark the occasion.

 

[CorvoSol]

So I have a bit of an unusual situation I've been mulling and am not sure what to do on. Figure I'll throw this out for tips and tricks.

Recently, my friend asked me to officiate her wedding. In the State of Washington, there aren't any licenses for performing marriages. You just get ordained, and as long as you're ordained to perform marriages you're gravy.

1. I don't know if I am, and I don't think I am ordained to perform marriages because like, that just doesn't seem likely to me.

2. In the very likely case that I'm not, do I need to seek permission from my Bishop before going out and officiating this wedding?

I don't really want to get ordained in another Church to do this ceremony, since it does feel a little off to me, but if I must as in, there's not really any work around with the Church, I guess I'll have to.

Because I want to do this for my friend. Both she and her fiance requested I do so, and we're very close so I feel like I want to do this important thing for them, because it's a big honor and they're my friends.

 

[Thaedolus]

As far as I know, only bishops and up can officiate at a wedding, and getting ordained in another church (even if only for something like this) is more than frowned upon and could get your recommend revoked. At least, it was one of the issues used against John Dehlin when he was excommunicated.

I'd ask a bishop, but I'd bet they would say no

 

[CorvoSol]

As far as I know, only bishops and up can officiate at a wedding, and getting ordained in another church (even if only for something like this) is more than frowned upon and could get your recommend revoked. At least, it was one of the issues used against John Dehlin when he was excommunicated.

I'd ask a bishop, but I'd bet they would say no

Whoa whoa yikes. Man there has to be a way to navigate all of this without having to drop the ball on either side.

 

[Thaedolus]

Whoa whoa yikes. Man there has to be a way to navigate all of this without having to drop the ball on either side.

I believe it really depends on your bishop's interpretation of this:

Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

I can imagine a PNW/California liberal bishop being OK with getting some kind of online ordination or whatever. I could also see another bishop the next ward over calling your to repentance over it (ordination = affiliation, letter of the law says you can't answer no). YMMV based on who you get, generally it's better to ask first or feign ignorance later

EDIT:

Here's what the 2010 church handbook of instructions says about it:

So no, you won't be able to perform it as an ordained Elder, you need to be in one of those capacities and your friend (or her fiance) would need to be in the unit you preside over.

 

[CorvoSol]

I believe it really depends on your bishop's interpretation of this:



I can imagine a PNW/California liberal bishop being OK with getting some kind of online ordination or whatever. I could also see another bishop the next ward over calling your to repentance over it (ordination = affiliation, letter of the law says you can't answer no). YMMV based on who you get, generally it's better to ask first or feign ignorance later

EDIT:

Here's what the 2010 church handbook of instructions says about it:

So no, you won't be able to perform it as an ordained Elder, you need to be in one of those capacities and your friend (or her fiance) would need to be in the unit you preside over.

See, here's the thing on my weird situation: I can't find anything in the Church about marrying two people who are not members of the Church. Like, both of my friends are not LDS. And then there's the weird wording of the law in Washington State. It basically appears that you MUST be affiliated with some religion or another in order to perform a wedding here (as the state doesn't issue licenses), which is WEIRD AS SHIT for a state like WA, but there you have it. At the same time, the state holds as valid the weddings of people who are wed by clergy without proper authority basically as long as the married couple are down with still being wed.

It's all vague and nebulous as shit and no matter how much I've tried to explain it to my friends I don't think they understand the particulars of my situation (which is only fair, as I don't expect them to have to understand every weird thing like this). I need to find some state representative and sit down with them and ask because this is all sort of a dicey situation for me and I wind up feeling bad either way.

 

[Yoritomo]

If you truly want to do this above board you have to ask your bishop.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

Pft, follow the old Scoutmaster creed "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission!"

 

[Thaedolus]

See, here's the thing on my weird situation: I can't find anything in the Church about marrying two people who are not members of the Church. Like, both of my friends are not LDS. And then there's the weird wording of the law in Washington State. It basically appears that you MUST be affiliated with some religion or another in order to perform a wedding here (as the state doesn't issue licenses), which is WEIRD AS SHIT for a state like WA, but there you have it. At the same time, the state holds as valid the weddings of people who are wed by clergy without proper authority basically as long as the married couple are down with still being wed.

It's all vague and nebulous as shit and no matter how much I've tried to explain it to my friends I don't think they understand the particulars of my situation (which is only fair, as I don't expect them to have to understand every weird thing like this). I need to find some state representative and sit down with them and ask because this is all sort of a dicey situation for me and I wind up feeling bad either way.

Section 3.5.3

Authorized Church officers may perform marriages for nonmembers without receiving special approval.

You might be able to convince Washington state you have approval to do so, I'm not sure if they require documentation, but in the eyes of the LDS church you're not an authorized church officer. In any case, I hope you figure it out because I'm sure that'll be a cool experience for you and your friends.

 

[Yoritomo]

Yeah. Getting ordained by the Universal Life Church is the easiest way to be able to perform a marriage ceremony.

However this could get you a seat in a bishop's office, and not the one behind the desk.

 

[Pelydr]

Altered Beast: Your love for converting very poor, very unedecated people make you look like a sociopath. On your mission you didn't do ANYTHING good. You spent your time converting poor people into giving money to a racist, sexist, homophobic organization. The fact that you are proud of this speaks very loudly over what a shitbag you are.

Sure I will probably get banned for this, but FUCK the Mormon Church.

 

[CorvoSol]

If you truly want to do this above board you have to ask your bishop.

I think you're right. I'll try and ask mine here in Nanjing, but I probably would have to wait all the way until I'm back to the US before being able to get one who could OK it.

It's just really weird that the state requires you go through a religious institution to do this at all. Because if it didn't, this would be much easier for me, haha.

Pft, follow the old Scoutmaster creed "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission!"

Oh is that a thing Scoutmasters say? I last heard that from some bad eggs on my Mish, so I'm hesitant to go that route.

 

[Yoritomo]

Peldyr, invalidating someone's personal experience to get emotional revenge when they invalidate yours isn't gonna lead anywhere healthy.

I know it can be cathartic but it usually just leads to ever increasing anger.

 

[CorvoSol]

There are times when I don't know if this thread can work and I think we're all crazy for trying, honestly. It gets hostile in here, but I don't lay that blame at anybody's feet. We're gathering here on sort of polarized ends of an intense emotional rift. By nature the subject of this thread will always leave that rift obvious and it almost feels like an inevitability that someone is going to say something to hurt someone.

I haven't got any magic solution, and we probably all are crazy for trying, but I dunno. I just wanna believe it can work. I've got my personal reasons for hoping it does, I guess.

 

[Brianemone]

I'm feeling a little gullible today, I just found out about Captain Kidd and the town Moroni in the Comoros Islands. How does crap like this get turned up and still surprise me? How did I allow myself to skate through life for 26 years without stepping back and looking at it objectively?

 

[Yoritomo]

I'm feeling a little gullible today, I just found out about Captain Kidd and the town Moroni in the Comoros Islands. How does crap like this get turned up and still surprise me? How did I allow myself to skate through life for 26 years without stepping back and looking at it objectively?

This keeps happening to me over and over again. The one that keeps me shaking my head at myself for not realizing something was up sooner is the difference between men and women's covenants in the temple. Spoilers for temple sensitivity.

Spoiler

Men are promised to become kings and priests to GOD.
Women are promise to become Queens and priestesses to their Husband.

Men promise to obey/hearken to God.
Women promise to obey/hearken to their husbands.

The church is fundamentally sexist.

 

[Doodis]

I'm feeling a little gullible today, I just found out about Captain Kidd and the town Moroni in the Comoros Islands. How does crap like this get turned up and still surprise me? How did I allow myself to skate through life for 26 years without stepping back and looking at it objectively?

Could be worse. You could have been 37 when you figured it out like me. And still have a spouse that's full in.

 

[Thaedolus]

Sometimes I mourn my lost teenage years and the tumultuous early 20's I experienced deprogramming myself. I missed out on love and relationships, and I found myself putting my worldview and personality together years behind "everyone" else.

Then I see stories like the lady who lost out on a relationship with a nonmember because her bishop told her to, then went 30 years as a single before putting together that the church isn't true. It's heartbreaking...I had a taste of that, figured it out and still found myself all before 25, and I still struggle deprogramming myself. Hearing about someone in their 50's experiencing the same thing is just heartbreaking.

It's hard not to look back with regret, but looking forward to the rest of life fills me with optimism. But sometimes you stumble on something like the Captain Kidd thing and...fuck, how did I not put it together sooner? How does my family still buy this bullshit? It's hard not to get bitter or angry about it. But time heals.

 

[Yoritomo]

Sometimes I mourn my lost teenage years and the tumultuous early 20's I experienced deprogramming myself. I missed out on love and relationships, and I found myself putting my worldview and personality together years behind "everyone" else.

Then I see stories like the lady who lost out on a relationship with a nonmember because her bishop told her to, then went 30 years as a single before putting together that the church isn't true. It's heartbreaking...I had a taste of that, figured it out and still found myself all before 25, and I still struggle deprogramming myself. Hearing about someone in their 50's experiencing the same thing is just heartbreaking.

It's hard not to look back with regret, but looking forward to the rest of life fills me with optimism. But sometimes you stumble on something like the Captain Kidd thing and...fuck, how did I not put it together sooner? How does my family still buy this bullshit? It's hard not to get bitter or angry about it. But time heals.

The wife and I stop each other from agonizing over the past. The best we can do is move forward.

She's going back to school to finish her bachelor's so she has something more than being a homemaker.

 

[Furyous]

I'm feeling a little gullible today, I just found out about Captain Kidd and the town Moroni in the Comoros Islands. How does crap like this get turned up and still surprise me? How did I allow myself to skate through life for 26 years without stepping back and looking at it objectively?

What's the Captain Kidd thing?

--

I found out one of my friends is marrying someone I had a crush on during our undergraduate years. It couldn't work out because I wasn't a member of the church and trying to find myself like all college students. I didn't join the church later because of her but she wound up talking to me like I did so that caused a schism between us. In any event, it's kind of bittersweet watching these two people get married. It's for the best and reminds me that I'll have to make a decision long-term about my involvement in the church if I'm not married in a few years.

Life is weird this way I guess. Having gone to church sporadically at best over the past year, I'm more respectful and understanding of people that choose a different route in life and move away from the church than I was the first few months after baptism.

 

[Brianemone]

What's the Captain Kidd thing?

Joesph was a bit of a treasure hunter and claimed to know where the treasure of Captain Kidd was hidden. It turns out he used some pirate stories as inspiration for naming Angels

http://mormonthink.com/grant11.htm

 

[Thaedolus]

One of the things that kept me believing was the whole "how could Joseph Smith make all this up? It's gotta be true!" I couldn't see the ceremony in the temple, for example, just being the result of a farm boy's imagination.

The problem with that is, obviously, the false dichotomy that he either made it up or it came from God. He didn't make it up and it didn't come from God; he stole liberally from all sorts of other works, and his cohorts had influence as well. For me, reading about the Freemason ceremonies was one of the most heart breaking and gut wrenching moments of my life...that's exactly when I realized that one of the final pillars holding up my faith had just come crumbling down.

 

[CorvoSol]

I don't want this to sound like I'm questioning the man's ability to serve in his calling or his worthiness, but I confess to being somewhat bummed that President Clark was called to the First Quorum of the Seventy. I'm just not a big fan of his weird celebrity status or his policies as President of BYU-I.

 

[Thaedolus]

Don't put your faith in the leadership and they won't fail you

 

[ronito]

There are times when I don't know if this thread can work and I think we're all crazy for trying, honestly. It gets hostile in here, but I don't lay that blame at anybody's feet. We're gathering here on sort of polarized ends of an intense emotional rift. By nature the subject of this thread will always leave that rift obvious and it almost feels like an inevitability that someone is going to say something to hurt someone.

I haven't got any magic solution, and we probably all are crazy for trying, but I dunno. I just wanna believe it can work. I've got my personal reasons for hoping it does, I guess.

Maybe your problems with this thread have more to do with you than this thread?