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[Hyun Sai]

And that's transphobia. And one of the few times I add somebody to the ignore list.

You completely ignored what he said before that which provides context.

However in physical sports, you don't really have a choice. No amount of surgery can change you into a woman or a man.

Sorry, I fail to see any Transphobia here.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

And you disagree with this article because?

I don't disagree with it, I'm only saying I have yet to see one about the sport of weight lifting.

These are two different sports.

 

[Ketkat]

"She only would have placed 8th in Rio" is the worst argument in this thread. How is 8th not an incredible achievement?

8th best in the world...

Its hard to discuss this without hurting feelings. But it is something that needs to be discussed and regulated sooner rather than later, for all parties involved.

If we take her stats and records, prior to transitioning, would she have placed 8th in the men's division in Rio? I think that's where the disconnect is.

When you factor that in, she would have placed higher in Rio due to being trans and not competing against men.

And that seems massively unfair to the women in my opinion.

How? If she had such a massive advantage like you're trying to argue, how is it that she wouldn't easily walk away with a medal? And "unfair to the women" huh.

I don't disagree with it, I'm only saying I have yet to see one about the sport of weight lifting.

These are two different sports.

You said you doubt these studies, despite not knowing how HRT works.

You completely ignored what he said before that which provides context.

Sorry, I fail to see any Transphobia here.

Hi, I'm trans. Saying "No amount of surgery will ever change you be a man or a woman" is actually incredibly transphobic because it means that no matter what I do, I'm still a man to him.

 

[Kinyou]

It's a difficult subject and these concerns are likely to come up any time someone excels.

And that's transphobia. And one of the few times I add somebody to the ignore list.

Wasn't he talking about it biologically? In that sense I'm not sure what's wrong with the statement.

 

[Conor_Fool]

You speak on something you blatantly have zero understanding of....

She'd have finished 8th at Rio... 8th.

Not even near medal contention.

Here's USA's best hope at the upcoming games: Mattie Rogers. I use her instagram because maybe her 421 thousand followers are somehow a better barometer for success for you than being 8th in the world at something. She didn't get a spot to compete at Rio at all because it's not so easy to get there.

Again and for the last time, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

How? If she had such a massive advantage like you're trying to argue, how is it that she wouldn't easily walk away with a medal? And "unfair to the women" huh.

I'm not quite understanding you here.

She did walk away with a medal, when competing in the women's division. My basic point is she wouldn't have won that medal against the men?

Whats wrong with what I said on bold?

 

[Ketkat]

I'm not quite understanding you here.

She did walk away with a medal, when competing in the women's division. My basic point is she wouldn't have won that medal against the men?

Whats wrong with what I said on bold?

I didn't know they gave out medals for 8th place at the Olympics, the hypothetical situation we were talking about.

Most women wouldn't win their medals against men, how exactly does that make it unfair for other women?

 

[KarneeKarnay]

You said you doubt these studies, despite not knowing how HRT works.

I don't need to be an expert on HRT to know that without seeing any studies in trans people in weightlifting, that there is no advantage to have being one gender and transitioning to another.

Anyone who says they do without some hard data is making an assumption.

 

[Ketkat]

I don't need to be an expert on HRT to know that without seeing any studies in trans people in weightlifting, that there is no advantage to have being one gender and transitioning to another.

You don't need to know how transitioning works to know whether or not there's an advantage from transitioning? Are you sure about that?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Ok?

Two different topics... And I never said that making the Olympics was easy...

The argument put forth is that she would be so much better that there would be no competition at all... this is blatantly not true and that other poster linking to an Instagram of another athlete, in a completely different weight class, with a ton followers really doesn't change that.

 

[Coriolanus]

Current hormone levels, at the time of competition, are not a sufficient or even decent indicator of how boosted an athlete's performance is. This is before we even get to legitimacy of drug testing at the international level. Most athletes cycle off before a major competition to pass a test, they're still in another league versus someone who has stayed off everything year round.

Evidently. And neither are weight, sex, height or body fat percentage. Is about increasing the odds of making the competition fairer. There will obviously be no perfect method for this.

 

[Dynasty]

I think the welcome to neogaf gif would have been better.

 

[psychowave]

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

This has some info summed up from the American Board of Emergency Healthcare, so let me give you some highlights.









And you disagree with this article because?

Just FYI, you should be checking the original study and not just an interpretation of it. Not saying the original study won't necessarily say the same, but that article isn't very scientifically precise.

 

[TTG]

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

This has some info summed up from the American Board of Emergency Healthcare, so let me give you some highlights.

Quote number 1 is moot based on OP's article alone.

Quote number 2 is moot. We're all aware there's great physical variation in people besides gender, that's why she was in a particular weight class.

Quote number 3 is without a reference. Again, men who were on the juice a year ago will have a clear advantage over other men who never were, never mind going through puberty as men and competing versus women now.

Evidently. And neither are weight, sex, height or body fat percentage. Is about increasing the odds of making the competition fairer. There will obviously be no perfect method for this.

Not true. Lean body mass and body fat are clear indicators that someone has been on the sauce. Sex and height both offer a boost based on the competition. There's no method, but current standards in USAW do alright.

 

[Audioboxer]

Incredibly loaded, emotional and difficult topic to debate. The heart says let people do as they please. The mind realises sports is incredibly competitive and like it or not for many it's not just about taking part, but 100% trying to win and get medals. Male and female bodies from birth are not always identical. From hormones to skeletal structure to weight and mass averages all tend to tip in males favours. Just look at the strongest humans on the planet, the size of them and body/muscle mass. Majority will be men, nearly all the time.

Outliers exist and a strong woman can of course physically be stronger than men. This is nothing to do with arbitrary equality though, but biology, science and evolution. It's why even within male and female categories sports can have brackets. Some people are genetically monsters, as in unbelievable athletes or in a different league of strength from others. The perfect gene combinations mixed with their skeletal structure, height and more.

Joe Rogan gets a lot of heat arguing around these topics as people demand he uses his heart more. As someone who is a UFC know it all, you can see exactly why he argues as he does. Feelings do not negate biology, science and reality. This can be hard to just ignore for athletes who have trained all their lives and know the human body far better than people commenting on the internet.

So all in its tough as hell to debate this. Officials and doctors really need to look at things on a case by case basis. Given the extremely small % of people who are transgender they should be able to make judgement calls based on brackets of competition. Not to mention if someone is so far ahead of who they will be competing with, borderlining on not just a little ahead but a light year ahead, it may be the case they need to compete in another group. People may lose their shit over this but sports is often about trying to be as fair as possible within a bubble of competitors. It's not about everyone who takes part is equal, often in sports some are way ahead of others. However, if it's so far ahead a competition can basically be walked, like it or not it may have to be discussed.

I try to air on the side of reason, that being transgender people have every right to compete but as I said if doctors, officials and experts can acknowledge one body is light years ahead of the others and it may be due to how that body matured, it may be best to show caution. As people transition at different stages it's not just a case of the hormones sort it out! If a body has developed very far as male it is likely to have a lot of the biological and evolutionary traits that could favour strength, mass and skeletal density. These things can be crucial in weightlifting. As I said at the start look at what the strongest men push weight wise, on average, and compare it to the figures the strongest women push. Then just look at the averages as you somewhat go down some of the categories between men and women.

Edit: For the lazy you can even just compare some figures here between males and females https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

I didn't know they gave out medals for 8th place at the Olympics, the hypothetical situation we were talking about.

Most women wouldn't win their medals against men, how exactly does that make it unfair for other women?

Okay.

This woman won first place in the competition in the women's division.

Another poster pointed out she would have "only placed 8th at Rio" as if to justify that she has no real advantage and thats not a great result. My interpretation at least.

Of course most women wouldn't win medals against men. And of course most men would won medals against women. The issue here is what advantage a trans woman would have, that she would win against women, and place 8th at Rio.

This is what is unfair.

I should have quoted the poster to make my point cleared I think.

Her stats before transitioning, would they indicate she would have placed 8th against men at Rio (had she not transitioned)? Or is placing 8th due to her competing against women, because she is trans.

Personally I don't think it's fair that she is placing higher and winning events based off a seemingly inherent advantage of just being trans.

 

[Ketkat]

Quote number 1 is moot based on OP's article alone.

Quote number 2 is moot. We're all aware there's great physical variation in people besides gender, that's why she was in a particular weight class.

Quote number 3 is without a reference. Again, men who were on the juice a year ago will have a clear advantage over other men who never were, never mind going through puberty as men and competing versus women now.

That's kind of what I figured would happen if I showed you these things. Despite the NCAA, the Olympic committee, the American Board of Emergency Medicine, as well as a host of other scientific and medical communities saying that there is no inherent advantage that a transwoman has over a ciswoman in competition, you will never ever believe anything they have to say about it.

Tell me. Are you a medical professional of some kind? What studies do you have to back up your side? Or is this just someone else's "common sense/gut feeling" in this thread?

Personally I don't think it's fair that she is placing higher and winning events based off a seemingly inherent advantage of just being trans.

And yet, medical professionals say there is no such advantage, how about that?

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

This person was a competitive male lifter and then transitioned mid 30s. Now at 39 they are breaking records in female competitions. One of the articles I read quoted a weightlifter as saying something along the lines of you want to feel like you are competing on a level playing field. I can see how this may not be the feeling for some considering the circumstances. The ioc rules state the testosterone levels must be 10nmol/l for mtf athletes. I don't know what the average female athlete's testosterone level is so maybe this is a good number but the average level for females in general is 3.3nmol/l (which varies based on age but that's what averages are about).

Someone said cis peak athletes have the same advantage which I believe the comparison isn't apt at all. Mentally if bolt beat me I would not attribute it to anything but him being the superior athlete. If I compete in a gender specific sport and the other sex has an inherit advantage then I wouldn't be able completely write that off as an influencing factor in their victory.

The 10nmol/l is an absolutely ludicrous mark, considering women athletes even with extreme hyperandrogenism don't come anywhere close to that mark. Elite female track and field athletes with the condition will have maybe 5nmol/l max.

The case of Semenya is an interesting one because when they lowered the limit, instead of smashing records, suddenly her performances dropped off a cliff. They brought it back up again and she destroys the competition once again. The jury is still out on how much testosterone levels impact performance in female athletes obviously, we need more studies on that.


Now on to the topic, I don't feel comfortable having trans women compete against cis women. It's a very sticky situation with no right answers, but if someone transition in their late teens or early twenties they're already going to have a clear advantage in bone structure and musculature. The 2000th best male basketball player would absolutely destroy the WNBA etc.

I don't buy the argument that everyone has genetic advantages, therefore it's fair. Some people might have mutations that allow them to utilise more oxygen, but none of them come close to the herculean gap between a male and female athlete.

 

[TTG]

I think the welcome to neogaf gif would have been better.

It is what it is. I don't have the time nor energy to condense years of experience in and following of strength sports so I used some analogies and specific examples to counter claims that are rather obviously ridiculous. Excuse me if I identified the poster's knowledge on the subject bluntly. If after reading the previous page you don't see a difference in the strength of argument(but she would only be 8th) you could use an introductory course in logic. Maybe that's too blunt again.

That's kind of what I figured would happen if I showed you these things.

A reasoned, point by point response that you will then ignore? Well, I think that's enough for today.


EDIT:

The argument put forth is that she would be so much better that there would be no competition at all...

That was never my argument at all. That's quite the repertoire of faulty logic you've been displaying.

 

[Conor_Fool]

Ok?

Two different topics... And I never said that making the Olympics was easy...

The argument put forth is that she would be so much better that there would be no competition at all... this is blatantly not true and that other poster linking to an Instagram with a ton followers really doesn't change that.

Just thought the bolded was ironic in that you called me out for not understanding something and shut down everything I said on the basis of that. Then you were called out shortly after for speaking about something pretty evidently outside of your own area of expertise.

You didn't say that it was easy but you downplayed it in saying "8th at Rio...8th. Not even near medal contention"

 

[Ketkat]

It is what it is. I don't have the time nor energy to condense years of experience in and following of strength sports so I used some analogies and specific examples to counter claims that are rather obviously ridiculous. Excuse me if I identified the poster's knowledge on the subject bluntly. If after reading the previous page you don't see a difference in the strength of argument(but she would only be 8th) you could use an introductory course in logic. Maybe that's too blunt again.

A reasoned, point by point response that you will then ignore? Well, I think that's enough for today.

Says the person who blatantly ignores every bit of evidence that proves you wrong. How is it a reasoned, point by point response when you won't even trust what the medical community has to say that directly contradicts what you have to say? Jesus, its like arguing with an anti-vaxxer.

Now on to the topic, I don't feel comfortable having trans women compete against cis women. It's a very sticky situation with no right answers, but if someone transition in their late teens or early twenties they're already going to have a clear advantage in bone structure and musculature. The 2000th best male basketball player would absolutely destroy the WNBA etc.

So you don't feel comfortable having trans women compete despite what medical professionals have to say about it? Why? Why do you not trust medical professionals over your own bias?

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

And yet, medical professionals say there is no such advantage, how about that?

Your attitude is kind of shitty. Its always the same in trans threads. Again I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt feelings or be a dick, I know I'm definitely not. But unfortunately it kind of comes with the territory, and so I can see how tempers can flare. So I do apologise if I am making anyone upset or offended in any way. Im just trying to explain my feelings and opinion on the matter.

I think we can all agree that we need some conclusive medical studies to verify claims on either side of the argument.

Me myself however. Based off what I know right now, feel it is unfair to women to compete against trans women, not fully knowing the extent of any advantages they may have.

 

[Terrorblot]

Why is society like "There's no rule in the book that says a dog can't play basketball" but "trans in sports? nope nope nope"?

As a transwoman I guess I'm lucky I find all sports fairly repulsive.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It is what it is. I don't have the time nor energy to condense years of experience in and following of strength sports so I used some analogies and specific examples to counter claims that are rather obviously ridiculous. Excuse me if I identified the poster's knowledge on the subject bluntly. If after reading the previous page you don't see a difference in the strength of argument(but she would only be 8th) you could use an introductory course in logic. Maybe that's too blunt again.

The argument was that she'd be so cut above literally everyone else that there'd be no competition at all, pointing out that in fact she's not even good enough to come close to medaling at the Olympics is in fact a solid counter that the women's division would still be competitive...

Pointing out that she can compete and still not win everything easily is in fact a good argument as to why she should be allowed to compete... combined with the IOC rules and research...

What were you trying to achieve by linking me to an instagram of a weightlifter in a significantly lower weight class?

I never claimed it was easy to get to the Olympics but nor do I think Laurel is succeeding in her smaller talent pool solely because she's trans, as I'd assume she worked and trained just as hard as any competitor would

 

[psychowave]

Why is society like "There's no rule in the book that says a dog can't play basketball" but "trans in sports? nope nope nope"?

As a transwoman I guess I'm lucky I find all sports fairly repulsive.

Good thing no one's saying trans people shouldn't compete, then.

 

[Ketkat]

Your attitude is kind of shitty. Its always the same in trans threads. Again I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt feelings or be a dick, I know I'm definitely not. But unfortunately it kind of comes with the territory, and so I can see how tempers can flare. So I do apologise if I am making anyone upset or offended in any way. Im just trying to explain my feelings and opinion on the matter.

I think we can all agree that we need some conclusive medical studies to verify claims on either side of the argument.

Me myself however. Based off what I know right now, feel it is unfair to women to compete against trans women, not fully knowing the extent of any advantages they may have.

We need conclusive medical studies? What do you think all these medical communities have been basing their decisions on?

And let me put it this way. Why does your opinion and what you feel about transwomen competing matter? Who do you think you are that you know better than the medical community?

Good thing no one's saying trans people shouldn't compete, then.

Just that we should be put into our own category. Separate but equal is always great!

 

[KarneeKarnay]

You don't need to know how transitioning works to know whether or not there's an advantage from transitioning? Are you sure about that?

You seem to focusing on one thing instead of actually responding to the point. There is no study into weightlifting and trans people, to prove this is no advantage or disadvantage.

There is in running, which is what I linked to you. I don't presume to know the details of HRT, that's why I don't comment on it. I do know the scientific approach to a conclusion and I don't think anyone can make an accurate conclusion as of yet.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Your attitude is kind of shitty. Its always the same in trans threads. Again I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt feelings or be a dick, I know I'm definitely not. But unfortunately it kind of comes with the territory, and so I can see how tempers can flare. So I do apologise if I am making anyone upset or offended in any way. Im just trying to explain my feelings and opinion on the matter.

I think we can all agree that we need some conclusive medical studies to verify claims on either side of the argument.

Me myself however. Based off what I know right now, feel it is unfair to women to compete against trans women, not fully knowing the extent of any advantages they may have.

I would also like to reiterate this post. I feel the same way and there needs to be evidence to back up the claims from either side.

 

[Aurongel]

This topic was a bloodbath the last time we had it and its shaping up that way this time it seems. The conclusion I've seen get reached in other discussions is that this will eventually prove to be a major actor against women in physically intensive sports. The comments in this thread highlighting innate biological advantages men have over women in certain functions isn't transphobia, its just biology. Its a difficult issue because sports are the best when the playing field is the most equal but at the same time having more than two gender categories seems discriminatory in a separate but equal kind of way. Likewise, if everyone today competed in a unified gender pool then women would be shuttered from these competitions almost entirely.

 

[TTG]

Pointing out that she can compete and still not win everything easily is in fact a good argument as to why she should be allowed to compete

The other points I've replied to earlier, but this specifically is new so... not in the least it's not. How that's not self evident to you I don't know.

This topic was a bloodbath the last time we had it and its shaping up that way this time it seems. The conclusion I've seen get reached in other discussions is that this will eventually prove to be a major actor against women in physically intensive sports. The comments in this thread highlighting innate biological advantages men have over women in certain functions isn't transphobia, its just biology. Its a difficult issue because sports are the best when the playing field is the most equal but at the same time having more than two tender categories seems discriminatory in a separate but equal kind of way. Likewise, if everyone today competed in a unified gender pool then women would be shuttered from these competitions almost entirely.

Was it? I confess I didn't want to get into it, but it's late and I was bored and the streams of two pass times crossed. Oh well.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I support trans rights

But I do think it gives an unfair advantage in sports

Special categories for trans athletes would probably be the best balance between preserving the chances for cis athletes and respecting the genders of trans athletes. It's not perfect, in regards to the second, but otherwise any opportunities for cis female athletes would erode, so it's probably the best option from a utilitarian point of view

 

[excelsiorlef]

The other points I've replied to earlier, but this specifically is new so... not in the least it's not. How that's not self evident to you I don't know.

Wait why not?


If she's not clearly heads above everyone everywhere.... if the competition is still a competition, why should she not allowed to compete?

 

[Ketkat]

You seem to focusing on one thing instead of actually responding to the point. There is no study into weightlifting and trans people, to prove this is no advantage or disadvantage.

There is in running, which is what I linked to you. I don't presume to know the details of HRT, that's why I don't comment on it. I do know the scientific approach to a conclusion and I don't think anyone can make an accurate conclusion as of yet.

I have given evidence. We literally can make an accurate conclusion. YOU can't because you know nothing about HRT or transitioning, but the medical community definitely can.

The comments in this thread highlighting innate biological advantages men have over women in certain functions isn't transphobia, its just biology.y.

So when the medical community says "Transitioning gets rid of those advantages" and people keep insisting that no matter what you do, you still have those advantages, that's not transphobia? They have a bias about trans people, that they are letting show to the point that they're going against all scientific evidence to say how much they think trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete.

I support trans rights

But I do think it gives an unfair advantage in sports

Special categories for trans athletes would probably be the best balance between preserving the chances for cis athletes and respecting the genders of trans athletes

I guess we should bring back The Negro Leagues too because some people feel that black people are better at sports and have an unfair advantage.

 

[poppabk]

People will not transition medically just to compete at an Olympic level. We're talking about taking hormones that have MASSIVE impacts on your body permanently over the course of years to end up with testosterone and estrogen levels identical to cis women. Heres a quick grab off Wikipedia:



I imagine the mental health impact of a cis person undergoing medical transition is going to be beyond devastating. Breast growth is going to be permanent without surgery and infertility can be permanent. Also heres a snippet of the IOC rules:



You don't just get to say "I'm a girl now" and get to compete.

Someone hasn't read up on Goldman's dilemma.

 

[Majora]

We need conclusive medical studies? What do you think all these medical communities have been basing their decisions on?

And let me put it this way. Why does your opinion and what you feel about transwomen competing matter? Who do you think you are that you know better than the medical community?

Just that we should be put into our own category. Separate but equal is always great!

Sports categorise people all the time based upon their physical attributes, it's the nature of the beast when trying to ensure that the playing field is as level as possible. In fact, it is through categorisation that sports bodies are able to ensure equality of opportunity to compete and win. For example, through ensuring that a small, lean but talented boxer has a chance to win and isn't just pummeled in the first round by someone twice their size.

I'm really struggling with the notion that someone who lived, say, 30 years as a man doing professional weightlifting would then not have an inherent advantage after transitioning.

This is such an emotive subject and I'm scared of upsetting anyone (and as someone living with HIV I completely understand what it's like to have people make faulty assumptions based on limited or out of date knowledge). But surely, even after transitioning, the broad frame you acquire through living as a man is never going to completely disappear? You reach a point where your skeletal frame is, by and large, set in stone right?

If I am wrong then by all means correct me, but I would have thought changes in skeletal structure as a result of exposure to certain hormones during puberty would be mostly irreversible. And skeletal structure is surely at least one factor that could give someone an edge over someone else in a sport like weightlifting?

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Do there just need to be four different divisions, rather than two, going forward?

I think so but I also think there would be protest against it

 

[TTG]

Wait why not?

Last time, because I want to take all of my fellow GAFers on good faith. A math test is given to a class from various countries. You're the champ, you score a 98. I score a 68, but then am afforded an advantage of 20 points. I'm not as good as you, but it turns out I'm better than anyone else from New Zealand and potentially get to go to the math olympics/world championship with you. Now let's take the practicality of further competition and being declared champ of New Zealand out of it and talk about principle. Why am I afforded this advantage at all? Does it agree with your ideas on fairness? Does the fact that I did not outscore you make it right?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I guess we should bring back The Negro Leagues too because some people feel that black people are better at sports and have an unfair advantage.

The average genetic difference between a random male person and a random female person (in terms of sex, not gender) is orders of magnitude greater than the average genetic difference between random people from different races

 

[Kinyou]

I guess we should bring back The Negro Leagues too because some people feel that black people are better at sports and have an unfair advantage.

You're equating segregation with the intention to level the playing field with one that was purely based on racial hatred.

 

[Jake.]

I guess we should bring back The Negro Leagues too because some people feel that black people are better at sports and have an unfair advantage.

there's hyperbole, and then there's this.

 

[Hoo-doo]

I have given evidence. We literally can make an accurate conclusion. YOU can't because you know nothing about HRT or transitioning, but the medical community definitely can.

So when the medical community says "Transitioning gets rid of those advantages" and people keep insisting that no matter what you do, you still have those advantages, that's not transphobia? They have a bias about trans people, that they are letting show to the point that they're going against all scientific evidence to say how much they think trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete.



I guess we should bring back The Negro Leagues too because some people feel that black people are better at sports and have an unfair advantage.

Are you part of the 'medical community'?

If you were, you'd likely understand the need for very specific research on the matter.
Broad conclusions drawn from overall research on general athletics and transgenderism does not just apply to every highly specific issue. And rarely do one or two studies hold enough weight for something like this to be considered 'fact' just yet. It's just not that simple.

So at least cool your jets a little on trying to speak for the 'medical community'. It's not a singular organ producing nothing but broadly applicable facts.
You can absolutely say that there's evidence pointing towards a certain hypothesis, but that does not mean you can just appeal to authority and think that settles the matter completely.

So let's just try to be civil here and have an actual discussion.

 

[airjoca]

How was this person performing as a man before? It's been said that the recent record would give her 8th at the Olympics.

What was her record as a man, and where would that record place at the male olympics?

 

[Ketkat]

The average genetic difference between a random male and a random female (in terms of sex, not gender) is orders of magnitude greater than the average genetic difference between random people from different races

Good thing transwomen aren't random males then.

The point was. The people in this thread have some preconceived ideas about transwomen that aren't true. The same way that when The Negro Leagues were founded, people had some wrong ideas about black people, and felt they should be separated for "equality"

Are you part of the 'medical community'?

If you were, you'd likely understand the need for very specific research on the matter.
Broad conclusions drawn from overall research on general athletics and transgenderism does not just apply to every highly specific issue. And rarely do one or two studies hold enough weight for something like this to be considered 'fact' just yet. It's just not that simple.

So at least cool your jets a little on trying to speak for the 'medical community'. It's not a singular organ producing nothing but broadly applicable facts.
You can absolutely say that there's evidence pointing towards a certain hypothesis, but that does not mean you can just appeal to authority and think that settles the matter completely.

So let's just try to be civil here and have an actual discussion.

And yet, not even a single study has been given that supports that transwomen shouldn't be competing with ciswomen.

 

[pashmilla]

What is with the people in this thread convinced trans people are up to nefarious shit?

"Cis men would totally transition into women despite the huge mental distress this would cause just to have an advantage in sports!!"

"Cis men would totally dress up as women to play peeping tom in public toilets!!"

ENOUGH. fucking christ

 

[hydrophilic attack]

What is with the people in this thread convinced trans people are up to nefarious shit?

I don't see a lot of posters making that assumption. At least not explicitly.

You'd be making a much stronger point quoting the specific examples of people doing this, over just making general statements like this.

I really don't like that style of making an argument. If you don't point out which posts you are referring to, how could those people learn, or defend themselves if they find their arguments unfairly described

 

[Aurongel]

What is with the people in this thread convinced trans people are up to nefarious shit?

"Cis men would totally transition into women despite the huge mental distress this would cause just to have an advantage in sports!!"

"Cis men would totally dress up as women to play peeping tom in public toilets!!"

ENOUGH. fucking christ

Literally no one is suggesting intentional malicious intent on behalf of trans athletes. Name and shame some posts if you truly feel that way.

 

[ozz ex machina]

If people think she should compete with people born women. Then can we just make all competitions mixed gender and move on with male only sports going forward?

I understand people are going to be particularly defensive on this subject. But how can anyone with an iota of logic in their head think this is fair? Come the fuck on. I'm a seriously liberal guy, but I'm a huge advocate of fairness in competition.

 

[Audioboxer]

What is with the people in this thread convinced trans people are up to nefarious shit?

"Cis men would totally transition into women despite the huge mental distress this would cause just to have an advantage in sports!!"

"Cis men would totally dress up as women to play peeping tom in public toilets!!"

ENOUGH. fucking christ

You should point out the people in this topic that are actually saying those things if that is your takeaway. I skimmed the thread before giving my feelings, and I can't recall seeing one poster say anything is done for nefarious reasons. It's nothing to do with trickery, but having debate on how a body began life. The mind may have been female from day 1, but unfortunately the body wasn't, hence, gender dysphoria.

Did you read the thread?

Fair enough, one poster in 198 posts. I'm pretty certain nearly no one on GAF will agree with them.

 

[Ketkat]

I don't see a lot of posters making that assumption. At least not explicitly.

You'd be making a much stronger point quoting the specific examples of people doing this, over just making general statements like this

Did you read the thread?

This topic is difficult.

I'd be very surprised if the process of MtF transition was not abused if they were allowed to participate against females at an Olympic level. And this obviously isn't a stab at the trans community, I'm talking about people that would only go through the transition solely to have a better shot at competing. And that's not fair. I empathize with the trans community in this case as well because it's difficult to fathom a cut and dry solution that satisfies everyone.

Before you all attack me, think about the countless athletes that went to extensive measures of cheating/corruption to ensure their success. It's an EXTREMELY cut throat business. A couple years of hormone treatment is nothing that a desperate athlete wouldn't go through if they truly believed, or more evidence indicated, that it would further their goals of success.

 

[pashmilla]

Did you read the thread?

you beat me to it kat

I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence. Like I said, there is a lot of desperation in sports. The mental health impact would be astronomical for a man that transitioned solely for the reason of sports. But if I remember right, the more extreme performance enhancing drugs come with their fair share of side effects as well. Desperation and obsession with success in itself has its fair share as well, especially when someone has been doing the sport their entire life and never quite excelled as much as they'd wish. And if scientific research confirms that the transition holds even slight benefits in the long run, I personally think that we will see imposters abusing the system.

gross