Multiple people shot at Wisconsin Sikh temple

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Kids should be taught about different religions because it's an important part of history and current affairs. How can anyone make sense of certain topics without having even cursory knowledge of important religions? While this case may concern sikhs, there is alarming ignorance concerning basic world religion facts in the US, Canada, and elsewhere. Antitheists who propose otherwise have not made strong arguments justifying their position.
 
I teach Western Civ and World Religions at a Community College. I think learning about religions is absolutely necessary to understanding other cultures and the way people think, their experiences, where they are coming from, etc. There should be a ton more of it on the High School level IMO.
 
The immediate aftermath of these kind of shootings is always tense. So many rumours going around, it makes things harder to take in.
 
2 things;

1) American's need better education.

2) This is the 2nd major media reported shooting in what 2 weeks? America has to start re-thinking gun laws...
 
2 things;

1) American's need better education.

2) This is the 2nd major media reported shooting in what 2 weeks? America has to start re-thinking gun laws...
Neither will happen. People are going to forget about this and Aurora, except for those personally affected, once the media coverage ends, until the next such incident, which likely won't be too far off.
 
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This guy reliable?
 
Neither will happen. People are going to forget about this and Aurora, except for those personally affected, once the media coverage ends. Until the next such incident, which likely won't be too far off.

It's sad that that is the conclusion I came to in my head as well.
 
2 things;

1) American's need better education.

2) This is the 2nd major media reported shooting in what 2 weeks? America has to start re-thinking gun laws...

Guns, knives, bombs it doesn't matter, killers will kill how they want when they want.

I live 30 minutes from what occurred today, not worried to be honest with you.
 
This guy reliable?
He seems to be a reporter for the religion part of cnn. He is only citing witness reports which could be wrong.
Guns, knives, bombs it doesn't matter, killers will kill how they want when they want.

I live 30 minutes from what occurred today, not worried to be honest with you.
Because they can kill as many people with out being stopped with knives as guns? This a bad argument against gun control.
 
Surprising to know America doesn't teach Religious Education.

Over here in the UK, RE is a requirement at Secondary School. with an option to take it as a major in your GCSEs later on.

Personally I'ld argue that such a class combats the ignorance and "Them vs Us" view that organised religions like to paint. Specially when even the Bible states that people should respect each others views, even if it's not the one you agree on. By learning about other faiths and their traditions, they become less of a threat and you begin to realize that even if they call their god by another name, have their own legacies and traditions ect. That not everyone who is muslim, buddist or anything else have no real agenda to take over the world (bar the few crazies)

Or course you still get the bigotry (because there will always be people who don't get it anyway), but people here seem to understand on some level that just because you come from another faith, doesn't mean you are about to go suicide bomb someplace for kicks next week.

But I suppose like with same sex marrigages and other things, the big American "Christians" will declare such a thing will be a terrible attack on America's own faith and that teaching such things will lead their children into becoming Hindu/Muslim/Buddist/Gay/Batman because they were "exposed" to something other than Christianity. Completely missing the point of the class in general, it's not to convert, it's to explain WHY others believe different things, why, and the cultures surrounding them.

Neither will happen. People are going to forget about this and Aurora, except for those personally affected, once the media coverage ends, until the next such incident, which likely won't be too far off.

People don't forget these events, maybe the media does, but to some degree that's really for the best to some respect, as Media outlets tend to dig into the killer and talk about them rather than do anything substantual like call for review of gun laws or give the dead the tribute they properly deserve. Nobody forgot Columbine, the media however refuses to learn that maybe they have some role to play in preventing these events happening.

In terms of people taking action, it might happen if the anti-gun people in America really pipe up, but with MANY Americans having the view that they NEED guns in case the bad guy has guns and every American has a gooddam right to protect house and home with a gun...well it's kind of like the whole Healthcare mess, till people stop being so stubborn and the goverment finally take some action, then no, change won't come. Mind I think these things have MORE to do with just guns, I'm not proposing any outright gun ban or anything. But clearly America needs to look at why these mass shootings happened and what they can actually do to prevent it next time. Though with an election coming, it might not amount to much anyway
 
Authorities including the FBI, the ATF, the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department and Cudahy police are now searching a house in Cudahy, Wis., believed to be linked to the suspect, WITI's Brandon Cruz reports.

Prior to starting the search at the 3700 block of Holmes Ave., police asked two blocks of residents to leave the area or remain indoors. FBI agents are there with an armored truck, a trailer and other vehicles. Other law enforcement officers are there too, along with a police dog.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/0...ng-at-sikh-temple-in-wisconsin/#ixzz22it2w0OT

So that's where the shooter's from. Also turns out there were two first responder officers, not one as previously reported:

Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards said the shooting suspect ambushed and opened fire on an 20-year veteran officer who was attending to a victim at the scene. Another officer then shot and killed the suspect.
 
Surprising to know America doesn't teach Religious Education.

Over here in the UK, RE is a requirement at Secondary School. with an option to take it as a major in your GCSEs later on.

We have enough trouble getting Jesus out of Science classes.

But I hear it's not much better in the UK. You all have a bunch of religious groups operating public schools and they give a biased teaching of things like evolution. I got this from Dawkins, and one of his criticisms of this is that it leads to segregating kids into schools with only their religion.

I think that's the real solution. Lots of people from the south from 99% white cities inevitably have a little bit of racism, but once they work in cities with other people they grow out of it.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.

It hasn't been politicized yet. Give it a day, and let's see where it goes. I've got a feeling pundits are gonna be throwing around blame and accusations by this time tomorrow.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.

Honestly I'm surprised it has gotten as much attention as it has. Media has been completely silent about the attacks on Sikh people in the recent years.
 
Kids should be taught about different religions because it's an important part of history and current affairs. How can anyone make sense of certain topics without having even cursory knowledge of important religions? While this case may concern sikhs, there is alarming ignorance concerning basic world religion facts in the US, Canada, and elsewhere. Antitheists who propose otherwise have not made strong arguments justifying their position.

I'm pretty sure that religion is behind this crap, not lack of "teaching about religions". Kids need to be taught about secularism, not about superstition and ghost stories.

We have enough trouble getting Jesus out of Science classes.

But I hear it's not much better in the UK. You all have a bunch of religious groups operating public schools and they give a biased teaching of things like evolution. I got this from Dawkins, and one of his criticisms of this is that it leads to segregating kids into schools with only their religion.

I think that's the real solution. Lots of people from the south from 99% white cities inevitably have a little bit of racism, but once they work in cities with other people they grow out of it.

Exactly. There is no place for religion in schools, beyond being part of history classes in proportion to their importance on history. If you want to study religions academically, it can be done in Universities.
 
I'm pretty sure that religion is behind this crap, not lack of "teaching about religions". Kids need to be taught about secularism, not about superstition and ghost stories.

How is religion behind this crap? You act as if teaching people about religion somehow comes at the expense of teaching them about secularism.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.
Noticed same thing here man. Is pretty fucked up.
Far as gaf its Sunday so maybe that's why. Gaf is so slow on Sundays.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.

Personally, I'm just disgusted. I don't even have outrage at the moment, just kind of a blank stare, head shaking in disbelief.

And as someone who grew up outside of NYC and currently lives in Boston, I just can't comprehend this side of America, and I've had to try a lot in the last 4-8 years. I've never known gun nuts, religious fanatics, even social conservatives. I have no idea what some of these people are so angry about. I'm not even talking about arguing opposing viewpoints or who you want as the next president, that's both common and welcome, I mean lately this stuff seems more akin to a paranoid mob which keeps feeding itself and grows larger by the day.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.

don't do that. Don't turn this into a competition or some sort of social commentary about the press.
 
We have enough trouble getting Jesus out of Science classes.

But I hear it's not much better in the UK. You all have a bunch of religious groups operating public schools and they give a biased teaching of things like evolution. I got this from Dawkins, and one of his criticisms of this is that it leads to segregating kids into schools with only their religion.

I think that's the real solution. Lots of people from the south from 99% white cities inevitably have a little bit of racism, but once they work in cities with other people they grow out of it.

We have religious schools thats true, but also plenty neutral schools that teach both RE, and science with the theory of evolution. More and more schools are neutral here these days, most secondaries in particular tend to be that way. Most are religious in the loosest sense (ie a few hymns and readings but rest of the time it's business as usual). Besides that, at least at secondary school level, they CAN'T not teach evolution in science, unless they want to let that kid down when it comes to exams. A teacher can give their personal view on such matters, but it's down to the individual how they choose to take it all, no matter what their parents or mentors believe.

I don't know if your read my opening line and decided to reply in ignorance of the rest of my post. But I stated my distaste for religion trying to sweep others under the rug to "protect" the kiddies, when actually, the quickest way to sour your kid to any belief is to hide things from them. I hate the anti-gay tirade American Christians have going, because it's based on a verse taken completely out of context and twisted into an excuse to hate. Same with the whole pro-choice thing, if you don't want to be gay or have an abortion, fine, but as Jesus said "Let he without sin cast the first stone"

Of course we still have the subsets of religion that are stubborn about the whole creationism vs evolution argument. But as a Christian I happilly accept evolution and there's plenty out there who do too. Teaching about the worlds religions is about breakiing down those walls that divide us, rather than building the walls higher. Plus as I stated, RE classes are NOT for "converting" people to Christianity or any other faith, or even accepting them personally, but learning to understand and respect people who do have beliefs and the stories and culture behind them.
 
secularism is a dirty word in organized religion

The tension between religious and secular elements in society would be precisely the type of thing that would be covered in a good history class that was focusing on world religions (as one part of the curriculum). Honestly the fact that this is even up for debate is kind of silly.
 
don't do that. Don't turn this into a competition or some sort of social commentary about the press.

Don't mean it as competition or commentary on press, commentary on where America stands right now. I'm not naive enough to think racism went away, but I was alive during the 80's and 90's and it just seems really bad and in the open right now. That apathy towards it and quick shrug off or even violent rebuking of claims of racism is even scarier.
 
Don't mean it as competition or commentary on press, commentary on where America stands right now. I'm not naive enough to think racism went away, but I was alive during the 80's and 90's and it just seems really bad and in the open right now. That apathy towards it and quick shrug off or even violent rebuking of claims of racism is even scarier.

I don't think racism is overall worse than it was in the 80's and 90's but I do think that certain radical elements are becoming more unhinged by the day. Immigration and in general the fear of foreign elements infiltrating America seem to be what is fueling a lot of these groups. Internet comments are hardly a good measure of anything by the way. If you went by internet comments Ron Paul would be President right now.
 
Personally, I'm just disgusted. I don't even have outrage at the moment, just kind of a blank stare, head shaking in disbelief.

And as someone who grew up outside of NYC and currently lives in Boston, I just can't comprehend this side of America, either, and I've had to try a lot in the last 4-8 years. I've never known gun nuts, religious fanatics, even social conservatives. I have no idea what some of these people are so angry about. I'm not even talking about arguing opposing viewpoints or who you want as the next president, that's both common and welcome, I mean lately this stuff seems more akin to a paranoid mob which keeps feeding itself and grows larger by the day.

I live right in the heart of the kind of people you're talking about and I can't understand what they're so angry about either. Living among them doesn't really make you understand it, they really do live in a reality of their own.

On another note, Sikhs are some of the nicest people I've met. Anyone discriminating against them especially is the scum of the earth (not to say any discrimination is acceptable), because to discriminate against them is simply to project neanderthal Pavlovian xenophobia against anyone foreign-looking, even if the targets have nothing to do with anything.
 
I'm noticing in most of the comments on this on a couple different sites the closest thing to any type of sympathy or condolences is "Shame they were confused for Muslims" or similar. Which is pretty F'ed up. Also noticing this isn't carrying anywhere near the same weight or attention as Aurora. Even on GAF.

Shame is clearly not the right word. It is tragic whether Muslims or Sihks or anyone else were killed. But it is weird ironic sad twist.


And hopefully maybe there is a silver lining to that aspect . . . perhaps people will realize that if you are such a xenophobic hater then you are a dumb-fucking-asshole. And people tend not to like to be thought of as dumb-fucking-assholes so maybe some people will step away from the hate. :-/
 
WTF is going on now?

I posted about it earlier, my friend was evacuated from his block because the shooter lives on that block and his home may have explosives in it. It's in Cudahy, WI (where I live :S A suburb outside Milwaukee and connected to Oak Creek) off Packard and Holmes Ave. Helicopters have been flying around a lot.
 
Shame is clearly not the right word. It is tragic whether Muslims or Sihks or anyone else were killed. But it is weird ironic sad twist.


And hopefully maybe there is a silver lining to that aspect . . . perhaps people will realize that if you are such a xenophobic hater then you are a dumb-fucking-asshole. And people tend not to like to be thought of as dumb-fucking-assholes so maybe some people will step away from the hate. :-/

Hahahahahahahaha... no. It may sound cynical, but I think there will always be people like this, that live in their own world with their own little rules and justifications damn everyone else and the consequences.
 
My best wishes to those that lost loved ones and hope for a full recovery of those that are injured.

The tension between religious and secular elements in society would be precisely the type of thing that would be covered in a good history class that was focusing on world religions (as one part of the curriculum). Honestly the fact that this is even up for debate is kind of silly.

I guess people are thinking you are suggesting to teach children the religion, like full on deep study of the religion.

Perhaps you mean sociology of religion! That was a course I took in college it did not go into the finer details of religion but focused on how the religion shaped/affected cultures/societies/governmentst. I also took a history and philosophy of religion also did not go in any detail about any religion, but only in context with history.
 
ahahahaha

People are against teaching other religions and their culture? In a thread about a shooting?

I'll tell you why education works: it de-'other'izes certain cultures when you know the history of how they came to be. Suddenly they go from being strange weirdos in odd clothing to being quite human and relatable. Familiarity with a people brings empathy.

Bingo. How much simpler does it need to be?
 
And hopefully maybe there is a silver lining to that aspect . . . perhaps people will realize that if you are such a xenophobic hater then you are a dumb-fucking-asshole. And people tend not to like to be thought of as dumb-fucking-assholes so maybe some people will step away from the hate. :-/

Life hasn't completely beat the shit out of me yet to squeeze every last bit of optimistic hope in humanity out of me. Some days though, its hard to find it.
 
There being no evidence of how this culprit thought and felt is a really terrible and flimsy argument for not teaching the variety of culture and religion to citizens who inhabit a planet alive with these things.

Nonsense. I never argued that such things should not be taught, merely that I did not think that education would deter seriously mentally disturbed individuals from violence.

Not to mention that the "nature of the incident" suggests the irrational is based on the premise that one cannot rationally commit acts of violent intolerance, while history (of culture and religion) would suggest otherwise.

That was not my implication. Mentally competent people commit acts of violence regularly for motives such as personal gain or pride. My statement was based on the fact that this was a premeditated, unprovoked act of violence against a crowd in broad daylight which would virtually guarantee that the perpetrator would eventually be captured or killed. I will be very surprised if this act was committed simply out of hatred without the killer suffering from some sort of paranoid delusion or psychosis.
 
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-fire-at-sikh-temple-in-wisconsin-7-dead?lite

Officials told NBC News the suspect, who served in the U.S. Army, had many tattoos. The suspect had some kind of radical or white supremacist views but, as far as officials said they had heard, he was not in any kind of radical organization. His previous run-ins with law enforcement involved in traffic offenses, they said.

:(

Yeah, remember when the government came out with this report warning about potential right-wing terrorists:
http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

It warned about:
(U) Disgruntled Military Veterans
(U//FOUO) DHS/I&A assesses that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and
radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from
military training and combat. These skills and knowledge have the potential to boost the
capabilities of extremists—including lone wolves or small terrorist cells—to carry out
violence. The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist
groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from
the psychological effects of war is being replicated today.
— (U) After Operation Desert Shield/Storm in 1990-1991, some returning military
veterans—including Timothy McVeigh—joined or associated with rightwing
extremist groups.
— (U) A prominent civil rights organization reported in 2006 that “large numbers
of potentially violent neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other white supremacists are now
learning the art of warfare in the [U.S.] armed forces.”
— (U//LES) The FBI noted in a 2008 report on the white supremacist movement
that some returning military veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have
joined extremist groups.

And remember how it got bashed by the right-wing press.

Conservatives Decry Homeland Security Report on “Rightwing” Extremism

Yesterday, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich tweeted that "The person who drafted the outrageous homeland security memo smearing veterans and conservatives should be fired."
Gingrich was referring to this report prepared by the Department of Homeland Security’s Extremism and Radicalization Branch, Homeland Environment Threat Analysis Division, and coordinated with the FBI.
As Fox News has reported, DHS also issued a study of the threat of leftwing extremists (read it HERE.) But the report on the rightwing extremists is the one attracting heat in the conservative bloggosphere, from Gingrich, Michelle Malkin, Powerline, and elsewhere.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/04/conservatives-d/
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/14/the-execrable-dhs-report-on-right-wing-extremism/
http://www.wnd.com/2009/04/95170/
http://www.wnd.com/2009/04/94799/

Well . . . those government experts were right. And no, this is not some pure partisan thing . . . that government report was written under the Bush administration and they had a report about Left-wing terrorism too.
 
I know you guys are upset but the last thing American schools need is religious teaching. Leave it as is, separate church and state, keep schools secular. It's one of the best and most important things about this country.
 
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