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[Mandark]

Originally posted by Katherine of Obsidian Wings.

Washington Post report.

Here's the basics: The bill opens the door for "extraordinary rendition," which is a code phrase for being deported to a country so that country can torture you.

If you're a suspected terrorist, you would not be covered by the UN Convention Against Torture. The burden of proof would be placed on the person being deported, to show that they would defnitely be tortured. I'm not sure who they'd have to prove it to, since the courts would not have jurisdiction to review the Secretary of Homeland Security's decisions in this area.

So this bill would effectively give the government the ability to deport someone for the purposes of having them tortured, without any real recourse for the person going through this.

Write your Congressperson. It's really easy.



BONUS MATERIAL

The Justice Department censored a Supreme Court ruling.

The ACLU is in a long running battle challenging the Patriot Act. The Justice Department sometimes redacts part of the ACLU filings (redacting is when they black out text in a document before it's released to the public). They are only meant to do this when national security is at stake.

So what did they black out? Well, the ACLU was quoting an old Supreme Court ruling. The Justice Department decided it would be dangerous if the public read this:

The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect 'domestic security.' Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent.

To bastardize Norm MacDonald, "The Justice Department isn't moving us towards an authoritarian police state, they just really like irony."

 

[fart]

wait but cat stevens is a dangerous islamist lolololol

it's funny because he's a hippy and he makes music for dirty long hairs.

 

[Dead]

Sigh , reading this is so utterly depressing

The provision would put the burden of proof on the person being deported or rendered to establish "by clear and convincing evidence that he or she would be tortured," would bar the courts from having jurisdiction to review the Secretary's regulations, and would free the Secretary to deport or remove terrorist suspects to any country in the world at will - even countries other than the person's home country or the country in which they were born.

jesus christ.....this is what weve come to

 

[Triumph]

The government has already legalized torture. If you do it to a terrorist, it's ok! Or even someone suspected of terrorism. The silly Geneva convention doesn't apply to them. Remember kids, if the President does it or says it is ok, then it can't be illegal! Didn't you bastards learn ANYTHING from Nixon? Sheesh!

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I hear Belgium is nice this time of year.

 

[Socreges]

"Land of the Free" is beginning to drip with irony. How many countries are more deserving of such a bullshit epithet...

 

[Triumph]

"Land of the Free" is beginning to drip with irony. How many countries are more deserving of such a bullshit epithet...

It's like David Cross says, if the terrorists really hated freedom, then the Netherlands would be fucking DUST.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Don't forget those socialist loving bastards in Finland! Just DROWNING in terrorist threats!!

 

[deadhorse32]

I hear Belgium is nice this time of year.

yeah it's sunny today

 

[Jim Bowie]

It's okay to do this because terrorists will blow us up baby!

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

 

[Dragona Akehi]

yeah it's sunny today

Belgium's nice any time of year. It's a very pleasant place.

 

[nubbe]

To defeat the enemy, you need to become the enemy... or something like that

 

[Shinobi]

To protect the sheep you gotta catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf.

Alonzo Harris, corrupt LAPD officer



And people wonder why the US is hated on...

 

[Saturnman]

Originally posted by Katherine of Obsidian Wings.

Washington Post report.

Here's the basics: The bill opens the door for "extraordinary rendition," which is a code phrase for being deported to a country so that country can torture you.

If you're a suspected terrorist, you would not be covered by the UN Convention Against Torture. The burden of proof would be placed on the person being deported, to show that they would defnitely be tortured. I'm not sure who they'd have to prove it to, since the courts would not have jurisdiction to review the Secretary of Homeland Security's decisions in this area.

So this bill would effectively give the government the ability to deport someone for the purposes of having them tortured, without any real recourse for the person going through this.

Write your Congressperson. It's really easy.



BONUS MATERIAL

The Justice Department censored a Supreme Court ruling.

The ACLU is in a long running battle challenging the Patriot Act. The Justice Department sometimes redacts part of the ACLU filings (redacting is when they black out text in a document before it's released to the public). They are only meant to do this when national security is at stake.

So what did they black out? Well, the ACLU was quoting an old Supreme Court ruling. The Justice Department decided it would be dangerous if the public read this:
To bastardize Norm MacDonald, "The Justice Department isn't moving us towards an authoritarian police state, they just really like irony."

There's a famous case in Canada where one of our citizens was nabbed by the US and sent to Syria to be tortured.

 

[Che]

To defeat the enemy, you need to become the enemy... or something like that

I pity the fools who think like that. USA goverment should burn in hell for this. Torture is the lowest they can get. I'm sorry for your country guys, it used to be great when ideals mattered.

 

[B-B-Bomba!]

I went to Belgium once ...

It was closed.

Thank you folks, thank you! I'm here all night ...

 

[M3Freak]

All I can say is that during the American revolt against the British, Americans were "terrorists".

 

[Manabanana]

Ministry of LOOOOOVE~!

 

[LizardKing]

There's a famous case in Canada where one of our citizens was nabbed by the US and sent to Syria to be tortured.

Interesting. Haven't heard of this. Link?

 

[sefskillz]

All I can say is that during the American revolt against the British, Americans were "terrorists".

I really can't find the connection or releveance. Maybe I'm not as liberal as I thought?

 

[Ripclawe]

This is nothing new, its been going on a regular basis since the early 90's. The places they are sent include Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Jordan. If it passes or not, it will continue because groups like the CIA do get information. It would't be hard to get around any restrictions.

 

[Saturnman]

Interesting. Haven't heard of this. Link?

You will get a precise and very detailed overview here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Since 9/11, there seems to be many reasons to avoid the United States for foreigners. Obviously, having a Muslim name would make you suspicious, but I know of one Frenchman living here who got in trouble in a stop flight to the US (he was going to Asia). Having a one-way ticket immediately got him singled out and interrogated.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Well Americans weren't quite terrorists. Americans during the revolutionary war had a passing resemblance to the insurgents in Iraq. However, the rampant kidnappings of their own peoples and the indiscrimanant violence against their own people was not a distinction that early American patriots held. Also what you must realize is that there were already large self-governing bodies locally that supported defiance against the British. It was not a largely baseless guerilla insurgency with almost no aim other than disruption and violence. Any reference to American Patriots as 'terrorists' is inherently flawed.

 

[Saturnman]

This is nothing new, its been going on a regular basis since the early 90's. The places they are sent include Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Jordan. If it passes or not, it will continue because groups like the CIA do get information. It would't be hard to get around any restrictions.

Does that mean you support it?

 

[Ripclawe]

Does that mean you support it?

If its an important figure like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed

or this Moron Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane, I have no problems with it.

 

[Incognito]

so a needle in the haystack-esque search doesn't bother you at all?

 

[ManDudeChild]

If its an important figure like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed

or this Moron Slimane Hadj Abderrahmane, I have no problems with it.

That's a dangerous way of thinking. A test of the character of a society is how it treats its enemies. If a society (in this case, yours) can condone torture and devalue the life of its enemies, those of its own (eg: you) aren't far off.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Torture isn't right, any way you slice it. I know it's one thing to cheer on Jack Bauer in 24 when he breaks the rules to squeeze info out, but there's way too much room for abuse there. We realize he's doing the wrong thing, but it's a show. When it's real life, I don't want ANY government behaving like this. It's not alright that other countries do this, we should hold ourselves to a higher moral ground.

I have no faith in the intelligence industry. We cant trust our government to run SS or Medicare properly, but we expect them to conduct thorough intelligence work? Pfft. All the money we dump into the bureaus is a waste. In the long run, isn't it just domestic security (like the regular Joe Cop on the street) that offers us the most security? As much as I hate cops, I'd rather we just spend more money putting more feet on the street than granting our government the right to make people go missing. How many of those Guantanamo or Iraq prisoners were officially charged with crimes? Doesn't anyone find it very disturbing that people were released in droves after years of detention, without so much as a peep? It's a needle in the haystack. It's fine if you're Joe American with the six pack, pale complexion and the hillbilly accent. But what about the people who make up the bales of hay that have to go through shit for things they don't do? Our government makes mistakes. Our government makes A LOT of mistakes. 11 broken arrows...my god...and we trust them with our security. I'd bet dollars to donuts they've falsely imprisoned more than a few people, and have not only deprived them of their rights, but also mistreated and abused them. We're supposed to be a beacon for democracy in the world. What kind of example are we setting?

BTW, I agree with Ripclawe that this stuff's probably been going on for a long time. Probably a lot longer than just the 90's. But that doesn't make it right. Governments are just people put in positions of power. It doesn't make them infallible and it damn sure doesn't give them license to run roughshod over human rights. PEACE.

 

[Ripclawe]

so a needle in the haystack-esque search doesn't bother you at all?

It does because you do need some focus and its waste of time just to pick some lackey up and ship him off.

That's a dangerous way of thinking. A test of the character of a society is how it treats its enemies. If a society (in this case, yours) can condone torture and devalue the life of its enemies, those of its own (eg: you) aren't far off.

Nonsense, you treat your enemies based on the situation, if they follow "rules of war" you do too. If they are islamic terrorists hellbent on killing no matter what or how, you adjust accordingly.

 

[ManDudeChild]

It does because you do need some focus and its waste of time just to pick some lackey up and ship him off.




Nonsense, you treat your enemies based on the situation, if they follow "rules of war" you do too. If they are islamic terrorists hellbent on killing no matter what or how, you adjust accordingly.

Well I guess that would explain the amount of civilian deaths in Iraq.

 

[AntoneM]

It does because you do need some focus and its waste of time just to pick some lackey up and ship him off.

Nonsense, you treat your enemies based on the situation, if they follow "rules of war" you do too. If they are islamic terrorists hellbent on killing no matter what or how, you adjust accordingly.

That's bull, you don't allow some one to drag you down to thier level. Why? because then they have proof that you are just as "bad" as they are. Basically they can and will accuse you of doing the things that you accuse them of doing, which in turn make you no better than they are. So what right do you have telling them to stop commiting such acts if you yourself are commiting them as well.

 

[ManDudeChild]

That's bull, you don't allow some one to drag you down to thier level. Why? because then they have proof that you are just as "bad" as they are. Basically they can and will accuse you of doing the things that you accuse them of doing, which in turn make you no better than they are. So what right do you have telling them to stop commiting such acts if you yourself are commiting them as well.

Exactly. It'll just fuel the conflict. I mean the Abu Graub prisoner abuse didn't help matters, so how would it help for all countries involved in the so called American "War on Terror" help matters if they started decapitating innocent people. It wouldn't. It's a sad fact that your mindset (Ripclaw) is one that isn't uncommon. It will likely push this conflict farther than needed. But all's expendable for your safety, right?

 

[bionic77]

I thought it was proven that torture is not a reliable way of obtaining information?

 

[etiolate]

I say we get some prostittues and hump the information out of them.

 

[Ripclawe]

Well I guess that would explain the amount of civilian deaths in Iraq.

Such as the 35 children that were killed by Car bombs today?

That's bull, you don't allow some one to drag you down to thier level. Why? because then they have proof that you are just as "bad" as they are.

If we wanted to be as bad or worse than islamic terrorists, we would have hama rule fallujah for example a long time ago. Its not allowing someone to drag down to their level, Its fighting according to new rules of war with terrorists. You have to be as brutal in response or they will take advantage of your "kindness" Fear is an effective tool if used correctly.

It's a sad fact that your mindset (Ripclaw) is one that isn't uncommon. It will likely push this conflict farther than needed. But all's expendable for your safety, right?

If you mean killing terrorists, I suggesting using any means necessary to get rid of them and any means to get information out of them. The problem is some people see them as "misunderstood", Why do they hate us, let us understand their problems, instead of the correct way which is these are monsters that should be killed on the spot.

 

[Mike Works]

I only support torture if it's;

1) On a 100% verified and renowned (sp?) terrorist who has 100% factually played an important or major role in the loss of multiple lives. Saddam, Osama, etc.

2) Absolutely neccessary to obtain the information the person holds, and if you're 99% sure he holds/knows it.

Even then, I still have a very hard time supporting something some fucking terrible.

 

[Boogie]

All I can say is that during the American revolt against the British, Americans were "terrorists".

Just to drop in to nitpick, the American colonists were fighting the British army, while today's Islamic terrorists are attacking civilians. So, uh, there's an important distinction there.

 

[Raven.]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

So true, a nice foreshadowing too...

So this bill would effectively give the government the ability to deport someone for the purposes of having them tortured, without any real recourse for the person going through this.

Wow so they ain't satisfied with doing this sht underr the cover? Now they want to put it in bold red letters, eh? Those lawsuits, and millions of americans demanding the truth, a real investigation must be hitting a nerve, eh? Perjury must hurt, eh?It seems they're getting ready to make their move...

God giveth and the Ashcroft taketh away

We've said it before, and we'll keep on saying it: A country whose leader has the power to imprison any citizen, on his order alone, and hold them indefinitely, in military custody, without access to the courts, without a lawyer, without any charges, their fate determined solely by the leader's arbitrary whim -- that country is a tyranny, not a democracy, not a republic, not a union of free citizens.

With diebold, the illusion of democracy faded away, with the first patriot it seems liberty began to fade too....

afghan US style

Los Angeles Times reports.

The paper detailed the delightful antics of a Special Forces squad -- led by a berserker known only as "Crazy Mike" -- who subjected captives to near-drowning and electric shocks, ripped out their toenails, and beat them so savagely that some were left crippled while others joined Bush's favorite philosopher way up in the sky. Crazy Mike also threatened to kill any local official who interfered with his good clean fun. Army investigators, prodded into action by the Times story, say they have no idea who was actually in command of Mike's secret unit -- nor could they say how many other pocket gulags were squirreled away across the Bushist satrapy...

Washington's armchair warriors are now shredding hard-won cease-fire deals negotiated by U.S. officers with Iraqi tribal leaders to restore peace to volatile areas, the Financial Times reports. The Bushists have ordered new jabs into "no-go areas" -- often with airstrikes in heavily populated neighborhoods -- in preparation for a late-year offensive to eliminate all resistance to the installation of a client regime in the upcoming "free elections." (Already rigged, natch, in favor of the ruling cliques -- not unlike the U.S. election.)

When he saw the bodies of the American mercenaries despoiled in Fallujah, Massey's first thought was "we do the same thing to them," he told The Independent. Iraqis "would see us debase their dead all the time." His unit was killing so many innocent people, including women and children, that he told his commanding officer he felt "we were committing genocide." The commander's response: "You're a wimp."

American Justice

But their captors weren't interested in the truth; they wanted "results." Finally, after two years of relentless physical and psychological pressure -- including the ever-present threat of a military tribunal and execution without appeal -- the friends cracked and signed false confessions to the most ludicrous charge of all: that they were top bin Laden lieutenants, pictured with him in a video from August 2000, despite the existence of documentary evidence -- witnesses, pay stubs, school records -- that proved they were in England at the time. But before their show trial could begin, British intelligence belatedly examined the charge and confirmed the alibis of all three men.

Why? just why?

General Ralph Eberhart, head of America's first domestic military command, said the Regime must now bring the experience learned on foreign battlefields to the "Homeland" itself, including the integration of police, military and intelligence forces, "wide-area surveillance of the United States" and "urban warfare tactics," GovExec.com reports.- march 2004

I Just hope all of these are fake, and that the cited bill topic starter is fake too.... cause if it's not, it's not just the end of democracy(which ended in 2000 when diebold took hold), or american freedom(which started to fade with the first patriot), but the start of whole new era, the dawn of fascism in america. (The constitution will not withstand an onslaught from the legislative, judicial, and executive branch, it was designed in an era were information traveled slowly, in the information age, of nigh instant information access, it's but a very delicate thing, for concerted attacks from all three branches are now possible, and may soon be a reality..)

 

[Dilbert]

Fear is an effective tool if used correctly.

You mean, like the way the Bush Administration is using it against the American people right now?

If you mean killing terrorists, I suggesting using any means necessary to get rid of them and any means to get information out of them. The problem is some people see them as "misunderstood", Why do they hate us, let us understand their problems, instead of the correct way which is these are monsters that should be killed on the spot.

It has nothing to do with "misunderstanding." It's called ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS. Instead of trying to build defenses which ultimately cannot be comprehensive enough to keep us safe, why not figure out why are these people willing to blow themselves up to hurt us, and do something to change their motivation? Terrorists are MADE, not born. You can't fight them like you were trying to eradicate smallpox or something.

Although I know you'll never take ANY advice from me, Ripclawe, I strongly encourage you to go back and re-read Aesop's fable about the contest between the sun and wind. It is DIRECTLY relevant to the "war on terrorism," and our forceful efforts will ultimately be as futile as the wind's efforts in that story.

 

[rastex]

Travelling from Canada to the US: check
Of middle eastern descent: check
male, between the ages of 18 and 36: check
muslim name: check

....
I'm screwed



And I'll definitely be checking my Quran with my big bags, don't want that on the plane.

 

[The Shadow]

OMG!

 

[Socreges]

^^ haha

Travelling from Canada to the US: check
Of middle eastern descent: check
male, between the ages of 18 and 36: check
muslim name: check

....
I'm screwed



And I'll definitely be checking my Quran with my big bags, don't want that on the plane.

Honestly, I'm sure you'll be fine. But I promise you you'll get lots of suspicious looks. Just stare at the ground and make no sudden movements.

 

[Che]

All I can say is that during the American revolt against the British, Americans were "terrorists".

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.-Benjamin Franklin

'nuff said. Benjamin Franklin's quote can easily shut the mouth of any republican. Of course that was said when USA was pure, and leaders cared to make it a great country for someone to live in. Plus, I've asked before, and I'll ask again. Who defines who is a terrorist? The americans? Please, let me laugh out loud...

PS. I consider the American goverment the biggest terrorist on the world. Can we please torture Bush? Thanks.

 

[Crag Dweller]

It has nothing to do with "misunderstanding." It's called ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS. Instead of trying to build defenses which ultimately cannot be comprehensive enough to keep us safe, why not figure out why are these people willing to blow themselves up to hurt us, and do something to change their motivation? Terrorists are MADE, not born. You can't fight them like you were trying to eradicate smallpox or something.

Thomas L. Friedman talks about this in a excellent video at yale online http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/video.jsp titled "Reflections on the Post-9/11 Middle East". I recommend this and the Q&A session that follows to anyone interested in this sort of thing. And to throw the few republicans here a bone, in the iraq teach-in 1 video Q&A on that page, Prof. Hill gives a compelling answer why the U.S. is in Iraq now, detailing the process in the U.N. and why The U.S. did what it did.

 

[rastex]

^^ haha

Honestly, I'm sure you'll be fine. But I promise you you'll get lots of suspicious looks. Just stare at the ground and make no sudden movements.

Well, I'm a student and I'm going to train at a company (game company no less) so I think I'll be ok. This will actually be my 3rd time going to intern at the states... still I always feel nervous before going

 

[AntoneM]

If we wanted to be as bad or worse than islamic terrorists, we would have hama rule fallujah for example a long time ago. Its not allowing someone to drag down to their level, Its fighting according to new rules of war with terrorists. You have to be as brutal in response or they will take advantage of your "kindness" Fear is an effective tool if used correctly.

Allowing terrorist to dictate the new rules of warfare IS bringing yourself down to thier level. Fighting terrorism with more violence is a lost cause, you can't win like that. Fighting it with intelligence on the other hand is a fight you can win.

 

[Ripclawe]

It has nothing to do with "misunderstanding." It's called ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS. Instead of trying to build defenses which ultimately cannot be comprehensive enough to keep us safe, why not figure out why are these people willing to blow themselves up to hurt us, and do something to change their motivation? Terrorists are MADE, not born. You can't fight them like you were trying to eradicate smallpox or something.

America is building defenses and more importantly going on the offense, not only using force but "understanding" as well. Changing their motivation sounds nice, but how do you propose to do so? Islamic Terrorism has its birthplace in the middle east, where jihad is taught by the Imans in Mosque, you think changing the motivation inside Saudi Arabia or other Middle East countries is as easy as giving the palestianians a homeland? These are people with an ideology hellbent on taking over the world and making Islam the law of the land. Its not just America bombing someplace and all of a sudden terrorists appear.

You can fight the ones that are there, killing them off, discouraging others in joining up by a show of force and diplomacy. You cannot just sit there and go lets understand them because that weakness only encourages more terrorism.

As Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah said, ‘We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.’

You want to understand that?

Although I know you'll never take ANY advice from me, Ripclawe, I strongly encourage you to go back and re-read Aesop's fable about the contest between the sun and wind. It is DIRECTLY relevant to the "war on terrorism," and our forceful efforts will ultimately be as futile as the wind's efforts in that story.

I like this Aesop fable better

Aesop

ONE WINTER a Farmer found a Snake stiff and frozen with cold. He
had compassion on it, and taking it up, placed it in his bosom.
The Snake was quickly revived by the warmth, and resuming its
natural instincts, bit its benefactor, inflicting on him a mortal
wound. "Oh," cried the Farmer with his last breath, "I am
rightly served for pitying a scoundrel."

or the revised version

The Snake was quickly revived by the warmth, and resuming its natural instincts, bit its benefactor, inflicting on him a mortal wound.

"Oh," cried the Farmer, "Why did you bite me after I saved you?"

"You knew I was a snake when you picked me up," answered the Snake.

Allowing terrorist to dictate the new rules of warfare IS bringing yourself down to thier level. Fighting terrorism with more violence is a lost cause, you can't win like that. Fighting it with intelligence on the other hand is a fight you can win.

I never said fighting as they fight or fight down to their level. Terrorism brings new ways of fighting that must be adjusted too or you will lose. My Brutal response would be the same if it was a conventional war.

 

[Diablos]

wait but cat stevens is a dangerous islamist lolololol

it's funny because he's a hippy and he makes music for dirty long hairs.

If you ever listened to Cat Stevens you have supported TERRORISM.

BE ASHAMED

 

[Ripclawe]

If you ever listened to Cat Stevens you have supported TERRORISM.

BE ASHAMED

considering Cat did a fundraiser for a Hamas front group in Canada and called Judiasm a "so-called religion" and Israel a "so-called country" He can go fuck himself.

 

[Jim Bowie]

considering Cat did a fundraiser for a Hamas front group in Canada and called Judiasm a "so-called religion" and Israel a "so-called country" He can go fuck himself.

Anti-Semitism is the Cat's Meow?