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[paul777]

With lots of new information, and really in-depth, this article is excellent.

I like this part in particular: One fact that many gamers, including myself, will find amazing is that Retro's designers originally wanted to create a Mario Football title instead. "Most of us were dying to use Nintendo's intellectual property to make a Mario Football game, and target a younger audience with a really fun arcade football game," Jason reveals. "Nintendo's business plan was to attempt to capture the mature audience with the GameCube, so they wanted a realistic simulation game with licensed teams and players. We planned on licensing NFL, though I have no idea whether that happened. Programmers aren't usually involved in licensing and legal issues of game development."

How the times have changed.

 

[Teddman]

How about just replace Samus with Mario and call their next game Mario Prime?

 

[LowTecky]

good one.

 

[monkeyrun]

it would be good to see what retro studio could do other than Metroid. I don't like FPS, but I like what I see in Metroid Prime.

 

[Kon Tiki]

Finally! Been waiting for this for a month now.

 

[Lathentar]

This is a VERY good article so far.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

That article only reinforced my utter astoundment that people did (and still do) hype Ravenblade. I was cringing at the story description. And the rejected guard art was about the only thing of that game that looks halfway decent.

It's interesting to read just how bad things got there, and it seems that almost no-one from the early days is still around. Also I'd always been under the impression that Nintendo canned every else and moved people to MP, but it seems that it was more they canned the games and a lot of the staff working on them.

 

[monkeyrun]

That article only reinforced my utter astoundment that people did (and still do) hype Ravenblade. I was cringing at the story description. And the rejected guard art was about the only thing of that game that looks halfway decent.

It's interesting to read just how bad things got there, and it seems that almost no-one from the early days is still around. Also I'd always been under the impression that Nintendo canned every else and moved people to MP, but it seems that it was more they canned the games and a lot of the staff working on them.

which makes me wonder why they have to buy retro inthe first place, they could just hire 40 people to do the job... lol

 

[Baconäger]

Heh, the corrupted "higher-ups" part rocks. I'm glad to hear that the change in management was one of the things that helped turn the studio around.

Can't wait to see what they do next.

 

[Mejilan]

I don't give a CRAP about Retro's benefits package pre and post Nintendo.

*resumes reading entire article*

 

[Kon Tiki]

In the main kitchen area was also a row of video game machines ranging from individual Pac-Man types to the big MAME machine that played most every game you think of."

ARRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Sean]

Great read so far. I'm only on page 8 out of like 30

In the summer of 2001, photos and reports began to surface around the Net which spotlighted Spangenberg's after hours lifestyle. Images of him in hot tubs with half-naked women appeared on a website registered to a Retro Studios mailing address.

"And there were indeed issues with the higher-ups, including people who used company computer hardware to run porn websites out of their home and others who embezzled hundreds of thousands from the company and fled the country.

wtf :lol

 

[Scrow]

holy shit. what a soap opera

 

[Kon Tiki]

For instance, we had networking support, a full replay system, a fast stadium renderer, but almost no collision detection, on-field AI was under constant revision, and the animation system was not fully functional,"

Well, none other than programming guru David "Zoid" Kirsch. For those unfamiliar with the name (most likely a lot of you), David Kirsch was the man behind the Threewave Capture-the-Flag (CTF) modification for Quake (PC),

...

However, something that not everyone may know is that the team behind Car Combat worked very hard to make the game online enabled, from the very beginning. The title was originally designed to combine split-screen four-player battles with Internet play

In 2003, Mr. Cook was inducted into the Academy of Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame, also known as the Origins Awards. Several games credited to his name are Lords of the Realm III, Fallout 2, and the upcoming super villain title, City of Villains from NCsoft and Cryptic Studios (the sequel to the PC MMORPG City of Heroes).

Miyamoto needs to retire, or at the very least die. Seriously. He is doing more harm.

 

[nfreakct]

Miyamoto needs to retire, or at the very least die. Seriously. He is doing more harm.

You know, the likelihood of any Retro game pre-restructuring being good was about 0%.

 

[Timbuktu]

Although Echoes was able to deliver everything Retro promised, it unfortunately came at the high price of losing many of Prime's original and most influential architects. Among those lost were Gene Kohler, Rick Kohler, Mike Sneath, LeRoy Strauss, Sarma Vanguri, and James Dargie.

uh oh.

 

[GaimeGuy]

uh oh.

Why uh oh? The art is just as astounding as the original.

 

[Mejilan]

Echoes came out fantastic, despite the switch in talent.

It was a pretty fun read. It helped to fill in the gaps, assuming most of that was true, of course.

 

[ImNotLikeThem]

uh oh.

they left BEFORE Prime 2. and i think that was already known, too, just not exactly who everyone was that left.

 

[snapty00]

I know that Shigeru Miyamoto does well for his own titles, but his reach was way overextended. In his world, there would be no Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Halo, etc.

 

[monkeyrun]

Echoes came out fantastic, despite the switch in talent.

It was a pretty fun read. It helped to fill in the gaps, assuming most of that was true, of course.

specially the part about the CEO taking pics with naked women :lol

 

[Mejilan]

I know that Shigeru Miyamoto does well for his own titles, but his reach was way overextended. In his world, there would be no Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Halo, etc.

So what? There are other developers that DO provide those kinds of games. That doesn't diminish Miyamoto's contributions any, imho. He works for Nintendo, not the entire VG industry. He does his part, others do their respective parts. Everyone wins.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I know that Shigeru Miyamoto does well for his own titles, but his reach was way overextended. In his world, there would be no Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Halo, etc.

Yeah, well it's not his world, so why worry? He's been cut back/cut himself back anyway. I believe he only deals with EAD now, someone else (Iwata? Tezuka? Can't remember) oversees titles like Metroid Prime or Starfox Assault.

Oh, you said "was", maybe you knew that.

 

[Kon Tiki]

So what? There are other developers that DO provide those kinds of games. That doesn't diminish Miyamoto's contributions any, imho. He works for Nintendo, not the entire VG industry. He does his part, others do their respective parts. Everyone wins.

The point being, he should stick to his own games. Anyone of those 3 games could of been the next 'Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Halo'.

 

[snapty00]

So what? There are other developers that DO provide those kinds of games. That doesn't diminish Miyamoto's contributions any, imho. He works for Nintendo, not the entire VG industry. He does his part, others do their respective parts. Everyone wins.

Oh, God. Just shut up. I was just saying that some of those games that HE didn't like probably would've been liked by consumers.

 

[soundwave05]

Miyamoto's role in the company as far as what second parties like Retro produce has been cut back. He only deals with EAD now.

I agree that was a bad mistake to begin with (in addition to forcing Rare to switch Dinosaur Planet to Star Fox Adventures). No game designer should be given that much power.

Miyamoto's a brilliant producer when it comes to his own titles, but not when it comes to overlooking other people's work.

 

[monkeyrun]

The point being, he should stick to his own games. Anyone of those 3 games could of been the next 'Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Halo'.

or the next Blinx :lol :lol :lol

 

[Kon Tiki]

or the next Blinx :lol :lol :lol

Blinx is far more creative than anything Miyamoto can account for this gen.

People need to drop this 'everything Miyamoto touches turns to gold' crap.

 

[SomeDude]

I have a hard time believing that Car Combat would of been better than Twisted Metal Black.

 

[Duck of Death]

Didn't Miyamoto say he liked GTA? I could have swore he said something along those lines in a Gamespy interview. . .

 

[Mejilan]

Oh, God. Just shut up. I was just saying that some of those games that HE didn't like probably would've been liked by consumers.

Calm down, dude. From everything I read in that article, and before, the football game was redundant. Action Adventure, admittedly, could have been cool, but was little more than concept. And Thunder Rally/Car Combat really looked like it was going somewhere (the only project that was, imho.) As a Western RPG fan, I really, really was looking forward to Rune/Raven Blade, but even before this article, we all knew that none of those projects were going anywhere (except for Car Combat, possibly.)

Cutting those projects and turning Metroid Prime into a success probably saved Retro as a company, and Nintendo a crapload of money.

 

[nfreakct]

Blinx is far more creative than anything Miyamoto can account for this gen.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[monkeyrun]

Blinx is far more creative than anything Miyamoto can account for this gen.

hmm ... now that's pretty subjective.

 

[Timbuktu]

Why uh oh? The art is just as astounding as the original.

Point taken. It always easier when you have something to work with, here's hoping they can come up with ideas as groundbreaking and original as the first Prime.

 

[ge-man]

Miyamoto's influence is a pointless debate considering how bad things were at Retro before they cleaned house. We should be glad that company's focus was directed in the way that it was afterwards and not dwell on the presumption that Retro could've made the next flavor of the week or whatever.

 

[soundwave05]

Retro Studios was a good idea (I'm speaking about how it was ORIGINALLY intended to be), it just didn't work out.

Turok 2 sold over 2 million copies on the N64 in North America alone I believe.

Again, good idea, horrible execution.

 

[Unison]

It's kinda fascinating that Nintendo's committment to quality and their need to create "mature" games seem mutually exclusive. Of course I find the vast majority of "mature" games to be crap, so maybe they've got something there!

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

I wonder about Retro doing an original project. Although it seems to now be completely different staff, none of the pre-shake up games seem particularly inspired. I rolleyed my eyes at Action Adventure being 'hot chicks kicking ass' or whatever the comment was. And maybe it's the european in me (we've never really gone in for vehicular combat games) but Thunder Rally/Car Combat, while pretty look probably wouldn't have set the world alight. And Raven Blade, it just looks so blandly generic. And if Fable and Sudeki have taught us anything, it's that real-time combat isn't automatically better than turn based.

Going by their own products Metroid was the best thing that ever happened to Retro, 'cause it seemed to pull something out of them that their other stuff looked to be lacking.

 

[Unison]

As development progressed on Thunder Rally (a.k.a. Combat Car), Nintendo grew impatient with the development of several projects at Retro. With the Nintendo GameCube already launched and the 2000 NFL Football season already over, Retro and Nintendo had to take a hard look at where things stood.

Gee, I wonder what happened to Rare? I guess they couldn't withstand Nintendo's hard look.

 

[soundwave05]

Well you have to understand in 1998/1999, NoA was really hard on to create mature titles because they were making a lot of money off it.

GoldenEye had just sold an unbelievable 6.5 million copies, the Turok games were huge sellers, etc.

Howard Lincoln was eager to expand this market.

They had a lot of product for this market too -- Perfect Dark, Conker's Bad Fur Day, StarCraft 64, Eternal Darkness, Riqa, Command & Conquer 64, etc. all showed up at E3 1999 to be published by Nintendo.

But unfouruntately due to lowering software sales on the N64 platform some of these projects underperformed, got transferred, or never came out.

By the time GameCube launched, it was more of the usual Nintendo fare -- Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, Smash Brothers, and a nice purple console.

 

[Unison]

Yeah, but you have to give Nintendo props for cancelling the slew of mature games that they must have had in development... It's a miracle Eternal Darkness actually came out.

 

[Drensch]

Doesn't TopHeavy Studios and their games just about define the Spangenberg situation to a T.

 

[Mejilan]

Retro had plenty of time to get themselves into shape, and according to this article, with almost no interference from Nintendo (aside from a nice stream of cash and technology). Retro's management squandered the opportunity, the projects floundered, and Nintendo, cutting their losses, decided to consolidate and refocus the talent, to apparent success (as evidenced by Metroid Prime and its sequel.) This is a HAPPY ending. I don't quite see the connections with Rare.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Doesn't TopHeavy Studios and their games just about define the Spangenberg situation to a T.

What, has his new studio got 7 games in development with a total team of 19 people?

 

[soundwave05]

Rare was a huge benefit for Nintendo even if it ended sourly.

The Donkey Kong Country games alone sold like 25 million copies alone, Retro may not sell that many games for Nintendo for another 5-8 years.

 

[ImNotLikeThem]

What, has his new studio got 7 games in development with a total team of 19 people?

maybe more like 7 games that consist of nothing but "adult" humor and boobs. possibly.

 

[Timbuktu]

It's nice to know Nintendo had the intentions for 'mature' games, I hope they still have them and maybe also better luck next gen.

 

[Timbuktu]

btw. this reads a lot like what should be a new chapter from Steven Kent's book.

 

[monkeyrun]

Rare was a huge benefit for Nintendo even if it ended sourly.

The Donkey Kong Country games alone sold like 25 million copies alone, Retro may not sell that many games for Nintendo for another 5-8 years.

it takes time to grow a company. I do see Retro becoming the next Rare. but it'll probably take one or two original "Retro" game to actually build their reputation.

 

[soundwave05]

Yeah.

In a way I think Nintendo got f-cked by some bad luck this generation.

If Retro (as originally intended by Howard Lincoln) and Rare could have just done their part AND they had the deal with Capcom in addition to a "cooler" design for the GameCube, the platform could have maybe carved out a larger niche with older players.

Unfourtunately now with Microsoft established in the business, its almost impossible for Nintendo to woo older players because Sony and MS are gonna be fighting like dogs for every last bit of this market.

Nintendo had their window, they just missed it. That's how this business is some times.