N-Sider and IGN Cube just put a really interesting article on Retro Studios
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Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
Well, everyone wanted DKR too, it sold insanely well.
I'm glad someone mentioned 1080, the first one sold really well, but I guess against all the other "mature" things that fucked up, it couldn't stand too well.
I'm glad someone mentioned 1080, the first one sold really well, but I guess against all the other "mature" things that fucked up, it couldn't stand too well.
You know, another thought came into my mind regarding what soundwave mentioned earlier about Rare and others failing Nintendo. I'm beginning to think that those failures really had a direct influence on Nintendo moving away from 2nd parties altogether. I know that some have balked at Nintendo's choices of getting rid of Rare and SK, but I think the strategy they are employing now will insure that they will never get screwed again. That's something to keep in mind the next time a discussions pops up about Nintendo being foolish with throwing away Rare or other developers.
soundwave05
Member
I think its probably more likely that Miyamoto looked at the progress Retro was making (unimpressive) on Metroid Prime and looked at the staff (mostly FPS guys) and said ... "well why not do a FPS styled Metroid?".
He was probably right in that regard too, I think there's a good chance the project might have ended up being canned entirely and Yamauchi executing the remaining staff members if they had continued the way they were going.
Yeah I think Nintendo is shy on 2nd parties now. They got really friendly after the huge success of Rare, but now it seems like they're only sign smaller deals for single game projects with modest 2nd party teams (Advance Wars GC, Geist, etc.) on titles that have more of a relative budget.
NCL was probably frustrated that they spent so much time and money on Rare and Retro and Silicon Knights and Left Field, and the bottom line is sales wise they weren't doing anything for Nintendo any more.
Not one of those four studios could give Nintendo the hit they needed with older players and after they saw that Perfect Dark GC was faaaar delayed, that I think might have been the straw that broke the camel's back because that's the only game that really from a pure sales perspective had a decent shot at selling a million copies.
He was probably right in that regard too, I think there's a good chance the project might have ended up being canned entirely and Yamauchi executing the remaining staff members if they had continued the way they were going.
Yeah I think Nintendo is shy on 2nd parties now. They got really friendly after the huge success of Rare, but now it seems like they're only sign smaller deals for single game projects with modest 2nd party teams (Advance Wars GC, Geist, etc.) on titles that have more of a relative budget.
NCL was probably frustrated that they spent so much time and money on Rare and Retro and Silicon Knights and Left Field, and the bottom line is sales wise they weren't doing anything for Nintendo any more.
Not one of those four studios could give Nintendo the hit they needed with older players and after they saw that Perfect Dark GC was faaaar delayed, that I think might have been the straw that broke the camel's back because that's the only game that really from a pure sales perspective had a decent shot at selling a million copies.
It didn't seem to me that anyone thought Mario 64 was kiddie when it came out. Everyone was too busy admitting that it might be the best game of all time. Same w/ Zelda when it finally dropped. People were DEFINITELY less uptight about Nintendo's kiddiness at the start of the system's life than at the end.
The N64's introduction was w/ the Ultra 64 games Cruisin' USA & Killer Instinct. They immediately branded the system as a "mature", futuristic one.
More than anything Nintendo themselves did, it was probably Sony's redefiniton of gaming as a "mature" thing (w/ the movie-like (for the time) FFVII, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Gran Turismo, the Sony brand name, the CD format, and the sexy ads) that caused the perception to shift away from Nintendo & to create that stigma.
I certianly see Goldeneye's success as an example that until midway through the N64's lifespan the company did a pretty darned good job of pleasing everyone.
It's just that Sony got "cooler" along the way.
The N64's introduction was w/ the Ultra 64 games Cruisin' USA & Killer Instinct. They immediately branded the system as a "mature", futuristic one.
More than anything Nintendo themselves did, it was probably Sony's redefiniton of gaming as a "mature" thing (w/ the movie-like (for the time) FFVII, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Gran Turismo, the Sony brand name, the CD format, and the sexy ads) that caused the perception to shift away from Nintendo & to create that stigma.
I certianly see Goldeneye's success as an example that until midway through the N64's lifespan the company did a pretty darned good job of pleasing everyone.
It's just that Sony got "cooler" along the way.
soundwave05
Member
The N64 also kind of benefited from its hardware superiority. All that "SGI graphics like Jurassic Park and Terminator 2 and it's 64-bit 3D!" was pretty prevalant. N64 was on the cover of Time Magazine and on CNN ... it was the PS2, before there was a PS2 in terms of hype.
That sorta helped it early on establish itself with older players here.
The N64 as a hardware was pretty sexy too, sleek and curvy like a sports car, even the Fisher Price-colored controller didn't offset that. The original Ultra 64 design they had was totally bad ass though, jet black with a black controller and silver buttons and that Ultra 64 logo.
Then came the software droughts ...
That sorta helped it early on establish itself with older players here.
The N64 as a hardware was pretty sexy too, sleek and curvy like a sports car, even the Fisher Price-colored controller didn't offset that. The original Ultra 64 design they had was totally bad ass though, jet black with a black controller and silver buttons and that Ultra 64 logo.
Then came the software droughts ...
I'm not even sure if it's right to say that Nintendo is being shy about 2nd parties. When you think about it, 2nd parties are bad business. It's like having your hand tied behind your back. And we shouldn't foget that MS is also cleaning house--they had their fair share of miscalculations in that regard. I think next generation is going to be even more about cultavating good 3rd party relationships, despite the fact that the industry continues to consolidate and shake out the weak.
Mama Smurf
My penis is still intact.
How about as soon as Nintendo chose carts and everyone else chose CDs? Sony did a great job promoting the PSX and pushing the mature and cool factor, but I still think nintendo would have topped that gen (or at least finished close to even like the gen before) if they'd just had CDs instead. After all, most of the cool games on Sony's machine would have made it over to the N64 too.
Ah well, that chance passed.
Ah well, that chance passed.
soundwave05
Member
I hate to say it but I think Nintendo is f-cked with third parties, just because every third party that even considers looking at Nintendo will look at that Capcom situation and how that's totally fallen apart.
Capcom has done everything they can to weasel out of that deal, and I don't blame them, because Iwata was saying 50 million GameCubes in 2001 and they probably couldn't sell that many if Capcom gave them until 2012 to do so. No third party is in a rush to give Nintendo one of their major franchises unless its more likely to sell more on Nintendo than with Sony or MS (like say maybe Sonic the Hedgehog).
I think honestly the N64 would've kicked the Playstation's ass if they had used CD-ROM in the N64 or at least compromised with a dual cart/CD-ROM system (hey the Saturn did this even though they never really used the cartridge slot). Companies in Japan like Square and Enix just wouldn't have switched teams like that since its Japanese business policy to not take risks like that unless your hand is forced. Nintendo chooses CD-ROM and all those companies stick with them.
Mario 64, GoldenEye, Zelda: OoT, Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 port (same time as PSX version w/better graphics), Dragon Quest VII?
Game. Set. Match.
Capcom has done everything they can to weasel out of that deal, and I don't blame them, because Iwata was saying 50 million GameCubes in 2001 and they probably couldn't sell that many if Capcom gave them until 2012 to do so. No third party is in a rush to give Nintendo one of their major franchises unless its more likely to sell more on Nintendo than with Sony or MS (like say maybe Sonic the Hedgehog).
I think honestly the N64 would've kicked the Playstation's ass if they had used CD-ROM in the N64 or at least compromised with a dual cart/CD-ROM system (hey the Saturn did this even though they never really used the cartridge slot). Companies in Japan like Square and Enix just wouldn't have switched teams like that since its Japanese business policy to not take risks like that unless your hand is forced. Nintendo chooses CD-ROM and all those companies stick with them.
Mario 64, GoldenEye, Zelda: OoT, Final Fantasy VII, Resident Evil 2 port (same time as PSX version w/better graphics), Dragon Quest VII?
Game. Set. Match.
Red Dolphin
Member
soundwave05 said:
Defintaley the biggest mistake Nintendo has ever made was when they decided to use Carts instead of CD-ROM. Like you said, Nintendo never would have lost all those 3rd parties to Sony's Playstation.
I've enjoyed reading all of your posts through out this thread. Pretty much spot on with my own thoughts.
SantaC
Member
Wow this thread actually has great discussions, and not full of flaming!
Let me contribute.
I have a been a Nintendo game since NES in the mid 80s.
The difference with Nintendo today and in the past is innovations that worked flawlessly.
Nintendo somehow always set a new standard with their games in the past, and they always seemed to get it right, I never thought that Nintendo could screw up tbh.
Gamecube is the only Nintendo console that you haven't seen any real innovations on. The closest you come is the graphical style of Wind Waker. It's certainly a work of art. Something is missing in that game though. Overall, the Gamecube has had it share of fantastic titles anyway, not just the same.
Nintendo is in a big slump, but they have started to work hard in order to come out of it. It's a lot harder now when Microsoft has established themselves in the business. Nintendo might never be back. (speaking of console business)
I STILL LIKE NINTENDO THOUGH, had to be pointed out.
Let me contribute.
I have a been a Nintendo game since NES in the mid 80s.
The difference with Nintendo today and in the past is innovations that worked flawlessly.
Nintendo somehow always set a new standard with their games in the past, and they always seemed to get it right, I never thought that Nintendo could screw up tbh.
Gamecube is the only Nintendo console that you haven't seen any real innovations on. The closest you come is the graphical style of Wind Waker. It's certainly a work of art. Something is missing in that game though. Overall, the Gamecube has had it share of fantastic titles anyway, not just the same.
Nintendo is in a big slump, but they have started to work hard in order to come out of it. It's a lot harder now when Microsoft has established themselves in the business. Nintendo might never be back. (speaking of console business)
I STILL LIKE NINTENDO THOUGH, had to be pointed out.
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
LEAVE NINTENDO ALONE, BITCHES!
They're still making money (the ultimate goal of any for profit organization!!!) and they're still making good products and good games. I don't know why so many of you relent in giving them hell. Shut the hell up. GBA is an astounding success, DS is blazing out of the gates, and the Gamecube is still making the company money. Nintendo is still bringing out games that are not only worth playing, they also add to the gaming industry's pool of "quality games", which is never a bad thing in my book.
DIE!!!!!!
They're still making money (the ultimate goal of any for profit organization!!!) and they're still making good products and good games. I don't know why so many of you relent in giving them hell. Shut the hell up. GBA is an astounding success, DS is blazing out of the gates, and the Gamecube is still making the company money. Nintendo is still bringing out games that are not only worth playing, they also add to the gaming industry's pool of "quality games", which is never a bad thing in my book.
DIE!!!!!!
SantaC
Member
Ulairi said:
the snes didn't have innovation? :lol
Ever heard of starfox (fx chip) mr junior? Street fighter II brought arcade fighter games into the regular homes. Donkey kong country with beautiful pre-rendered graphics in a 2D game. Snes games with it's mode 7 capabilities. Snes sure brought its fair share of innovation.
Or did you see any game like pilotwings on the nes?
Chittagong
Gold Member
SantaCruZer said:
Mario Paint, Super Scope 6, Super Game Boy, cartoon graphics in Yoshi's Island, level by level downloads in Zelda 1 remake (only in Japan), Unirally, console SimCity (and a great one, that is) and then some. Some of the innovation was even canned - such as Nitnendo's Sound Fantasy.