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[TheRealTalker]

Killer Bee would be somewhere in the top 20

especially if you don't make multiple one character with different modes slots like Juubito and Obito


Edit: As a side note I really do like Naruto and Sasuke's final look... nice colour meshes.... Sasuke going back to purple and Naruto with that nice orange coat (Hinata likely dressed that guy up )

 

[Frog-fu]

My top 10
1. Kaguya
2. Naruto/Madara
3. Madara/Naruto
4. Obito/Sasuke
5. Sasuke/Obito
6. Hashirama
7. Minato
8. Nagato
9. Killer B
10. Tobirama


DMS Kakashi and Eight Gates Gai were temporarily power ups so I don't count them.

Prime Hiruzen would be above Hashirama if we had feats.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Prime Hiruzen would be above Hashirama if we had feats.

Isn't he canonically the strongest kage of his time, and the strongest Hokage up until that point? Or am I pulling this out of nowhere?

 

[Frog-fu]

Isn't he canonically the strongest kage of his time? Or am I pulling this out of nowhere?

He is. It's been stated numerous times in the manga and the data books.

Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > (non Jūbi jin) Madara > errybody else that's beneath them, which is pretty much errbody.

 

[360pages]

He is. It's been stated numerous times in the manga and the data books.

Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > (non Jūbi jin) Madara > errybody else that's beneath them, which is pretty much errbody.

Which actually doesn't make any sense considering his Edo Tensei was weak as hell, but it's been stated that those revived by Edo can't be tired and what not. Then again, at which point of your life Edo revives you never really been talked about.

 

[rrc1594]

Are you disagreeing that version of Kakashi didn't exist, or that was a BS moment in the Manga? Very tired right now, so I can't tell what you meant. If the latter, I agree.

BS moment in manga. It exist a he was very strong. Sadly it was pulled from Kishi's ass

 

[Welfare]

He is. It's been stated numerous times in the manga and the data books.

Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > (non Jūbi jin) Madara > errybody else that's beneath them, which is pretty much errbody.

Well, I believe when that is stated, it's only Base Hashi that Prime Hiruzen is over. SM Hashi would be myths and legends basically. No way is Hiruzen touching him.

Which actually doesn't make any sense considering his Edo Tensei was weak as hell, but it's been stated that those revived by Edo can't be tired and what not. Then again, at which point of your life Edo revives you never really been talked about.

Edo's don't revive someone to 100%. I think it was stated by Tobirama.

 

[Sai]

He is. It's been stated numerous times in the manga and the data books.

Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > (non Jūbi jin) Madara > errybody else that's beneath them, which is pretty much errbody.

If I remember correctly, it was only said that he was the greatest or strongest Hokage by Iruka, back during the Chūnin Exam. Other instances have reaffirmed him being known as the "God of Shinobi".

Even when he was resurrected by Edo Tensei, with none of the physical drawbacks he had in his old age, he didn't really quite match up to what we heard and saw of Hashirama. I honestly believe it's one of the few things Kishimoto either retconned, or forgot. Hashirama was also ended up being known as the "God of Shinobi", and his strength was thought to be something almost as mythic along the lines of Rikudō Sennin's.

Maybe it's precisely because Hashirama's power was thought of that way, that Hiruzen was called the strongest Hokage in his prime. The only praise of his that's remained consistent is his mastery of all Konoha's Ninjutsu, which earned him the title of "The Professor". From what can be gathered from his profile in the 4th Data Book, that has only been reiterated.

Edo's don't revive someone to 100%. I think it was stated by Tobirama.

It's apparently up to the caster how inhibited their abilities are, but there are some abilities that can't be fully utilized in that state, like Madara's "fake" Rinnegan.

In the case of the Hokage, Orochimaru apparently resurrected them in close to, or at their full strength.

 

[Welfare]

If I remember correctly, it was only said that he was the greatest or strongest Hokage by Iruka, back during the Chūnin Exam. Other instances have reaffirmed him being known as the "God of Shinobi".

Even when he was resurrected by Edo Tensei, with none of the physical drawbacks he had in his old age, he didn't really quite match up to what we heard and saw of Hashirama. I honestly believe it's one of the few things Kishimoto either retconned, or forgot. Hashirama was also ended up being known as the "God of Shinobi", and his strength was thought to be something almost as mythic along the lines of Rikudō Sennin's.

Maybe it's precisely because Hashirama's power was thought of that way, that Hiruzen was called the strongest Hokage in his prime. The only praise of his that's remained consistent is his mastery of all Konoha's Ninjutsu, which earned him the title of "The Professor". From what can be gathered from his profile in the 4th Data Book, that has only been reiterated.

Yeah, SM Hashirama had to be a myth amongst the Shinobi world. They would not want to think that someone that powerful existed. Prime Hiruzen was most likely more believeable than SM Hashi.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Prime Hiruzen was retconned.

Just like a good number of things in the manga.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I don't think it was a retcon, it's more a case of not showcasing what he could do.. at all.

Edo tensei Hiruzen barely did anything. We see young adult Hiruzen inherit the title of Hokage from Tobirama, but never fight. We see middle aged Hiruzen train the Sannin and sit around the village. We see old Hiruzen fight and do a damn good job of it, too, but it's clear he isn't at the top of his game.

I'd say it's left ambiguous enough for the original statement of his power to stand.

 

[Frog-fu]

I don't think it's a retcon either. We only got a glimpse of what Prime Hiruzen was capable of when he used those 5 elements simultaneously. Had he been brought back in his prime like Madara, this war would have perhaps gone down differently.

The manga hasn't outright contradicted any canonical sources that indicate Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in his prime.

It's possible that's no longer true since Hashirama is a transmigrant descendant of a godly figure and has some beastly feats of his own to cement him as a demigod like figure himself.

 

[Pegosaurus]

I personally think that Hashirama and Madara are the strongest Shinobi that have ever lived, sans Naruto and Sasuke. If Hiruzen was stronger than Hashirama why didn't we see him fight at all during the war?

Or maybe Kishi just forgot

edit: I think Tobirama's strength is closer to Hashirama's than Hiruzen's is fwiw

 

[TacticalFox88]

The fact that a 69 year old Hiruzen didn't SHIT HIS PANTS at fighting Hashirama AND Tobirama and was only concerned about stopping Minato's coffin from resurrecting should tell you all you need to know.

 

[Welfare]

The fact that a 69 year old Hiruzen didn't SHIT HIS PANTS at fighting Hashirama AND Tobirama and was only concerned about stopping Minato's coffin from resurrecting should tell you all you need to know.

Well Hashi and Tobirama would mindless during that fight. Hashi didn't even use SM. Also, how would Hiruzen counter someone with FTG and Space time jutsu? He would be fucked.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

You can tell Sandaime Hokage not being the strongest was a retcon. From a character design standpoint, Kishimoto made him incredibly old...which implies that he's really, really good at his job at being the leader of a vlillage of assassins.

When it was changed to Hashirama being the strongest you get all these questions about his death. It's not believable that a ninja approaching Dragonball level ridiculousness was killed off in a random manner.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Guys, I think we found are 3rd part.

THE HIRUZEN CHRONICLES

 

[Dusk Soldier]

It's not a retcon. It's because in part 1, Kishimoto didn't want to show jounin-level battles. Whenever the plot forced him to include one, it was either shortened, off-panelled, or there would be excuses explaining why they couldn't fight at full power.

Pretty much all we had to evaluate characters for a long time were unquantifiable statements.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Well Hashi and Tobirama would mindless during that fight. Hashi didn't even use SM. Also, how would Hiruzen counter someone with FTG and Space time jutsu? He would be fucked.

Are you aware of how NERFED Hashi was? Even if they were mindless, if Hashi had access to even half of the shit Kishi showed that he pulled off, Hiruzen would've been utterly annihilated within half a minute, and that's me being generous.

And even if he didn't, he was fighting THREE Kage level ninja. He was only concerned about Minato. Meaning that Madara and Hashirama's backstory wasn't even a concept in Kishi's mind, let alone something that was on ink and paper.

Minato was originally supposed to be the strongest, till Kishi changed his mind and hand waved the battle as simply "We weren't brought back at full strength." which was a massive cop out, but whatever

 

[DryEyeRelief]

It's not a retcon. It's because in part 1, Kishimoto didn't want to show jounin-level battles. Whenever the plot forced him to include one, it was either shortened, off-panelled, or there would be excuses explaining why they couldn't fight at full power.

Pretty much all we had to evaluate characters for a long time were unquantifiable statements.

The excuse that Edo Tensei don't fight at full strength came with Part 2, because Edo Tensei as a Jutsu wasn't used again until the final arc of the series.

When it was Part 1 only, it was being implied that Sandaime > Nidaime Hokage + Shodai. Keep in mind that this was during a time where Kishimoto didn't even bother giving them names and Senju wasn't a thing yet.

 

[Unknown One]

Why wouldn't Orochimaru want the 1st and 2nd to fight at full strength?

I'm on team retcon for so many things.

 

[Yado]

 

[The Silver]

Oonoki was old as dirt and still kicking ass, made old Hiruzen look like a chump with the excuses they kept giving as to why he wasn't as strong.

Prime Oonoki probably fought like a damn DBZ character.

 

[Pegosaurus]

seems like a retcon to me too. kishi decided that he wasn't really the strongest later on

I'm glad we got to see Hashi and Tobirama fight with their actual techniques and such, but it would have been cool to see Hiruzen wreck shit during the war though.

 

[Ricky 7]

Just got around to reading the final. T_T I know the series isn't officially finished but still, I've been reading it for so many years so it's quite sad. T_T

 

[Sai]

The fact that a 69 year old Hiruzen didn't SHIT HIS PANTS at fighting Hashirama AND Tobirama and was only concerned about stopping Minato's coffin from resurrecting should tell you all you need to know.

I don't think that scene played out that way in the manga.

Why wouldn't Orochimaru want the 1st and 2nd to fight at full strength?

Well, when he did bring them back at nearly full strength, Hashirama ended up releasing the binding Orochimaru had on him with such ease, that it looked like he just pleasantly stealth bombed that room.

Seriously, look at that expression of his.

And Orochimaru had just bound Tobirama's movements moments before, and he was being buffed by Hashirama's cells.

wat

wat is this

plz stahp no

 

[Rebel Leader]

We know you love it sai

 

[I-hate-u]

Naruto over Madara lol

Plz stop it

Madara would DESTROY everyone.

He is such a fun villian. He is strong, funny, has a clear goal, and more importantly, is not whiny like the rest. <333 Madara and whoever selected his VA in the anime.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

The excuse that Edo Tensei don't fight at full strength came with Part 2, because Edo Tensei as a Jutsu wasn't used again until the final arc of the series.

When it was Part 1 only, it was being implied that Sandaime > Nidaime Hokage + Shodai. Keep in mind that this was during a time where Kishimoto didn't even bother giving them names and Senju wasn't a thing yet.

This is what I mean. No one ever said that Hiruzen was stronger than the first two Kages.

People just decided that he was stronger because he was able to stop them with the death reaper seal.

Also, he definitely knew he wanted Hashirama to be stronger during part one. Why else would he use the statues of Madara and Hashirama as a backdrop during the valley of the end fight?

 

[simplythebest]

With the story of Naruto Uzumaki finished after 15 years of excellence, fans want to hear more from the legend behind the Naruto series, Masashi Kishimoto. In an interview with Japanese newspaper The Asahi Shimbun, Kishimoto-sensei mentions Naruto “is similar to me in some respects”. First and foremost is his love for ramen, however, that’s not where the similarities end. The mangaka mentions the character of Naruto, who fell behind his peers, reflected his own childhood. Others would laugh at his dreams to become a manga artist and his career in the manga world was unexpected.

“I was unable to do well in school and felt a strong sense of inferiority,” he said. “When Naruto said, ‘I will be Hokage,’ people surrounding him laughed at his dream. Since childhood, I also told others that I would be a manga artist but had no foundation.”

“Unlike Naruto, I did not have the courage to declare that I will become a manga creator at any cost. So I would just say in my mind, ‘It may be possible.’”

“It is unbelievable that I am working as one of the manga creators who have to write stories and depict many characters, because I was poor at the Japanese subject in school,” he said. “I could not answer questions requiring students to guess the feelings of characters in stories in school exams.”

From strategic maneuvers, genjutsu deception, and skilled hand-to-hand combat to brute force and powerful chakra-filled techniques like the Rasengan, Naruto fans are quite familiar with all of the ninja action in the series. Kishimoto-sensei mentions the thing that differentiates Naruto from other comics in the same genre is through understanding his adversaries and verbal persuasion.

“Boys’ comics inevitably feature violent scenes. But I wanted to tell (readers) that enemies who resort to violence probably do so because of unavoidable reasons,” Kishimoto-sensei said. “And if (the protagonists) defeat them without understanding their motivation, it could end up leading to a repeat of the same thing.” Ending a battle through dialogue may have been almost taboo in comics for boys, he said.

“In most boys’ manga, the protagonists typically achieve dynamic growth in the first episodes and continue to behave the way they believe to be good and affect other characters,” Kishimoto-sensei said. “But Naruto faces the challenge of how he can create a world where there are no conflicts, as he battles Pain. I could have made him go his way without agony, but I thought it would be wrong in some aspects.”

Success didn’t come easy for Kishimoto-sensei. Before achieving greatness with Naruto, he had to overcome many challenges. He spent years studying how to write scenarios and dialogue in films to learn about story structure and directorial techniques. He also studied oil painting at an art college. Only after all of that hard work was Kishimoto-sensei able to begin on Naruto and achieve the greatness we have come to know him for today.

“Life is colorful,” Kishimoto-sensei said. “It is the reality of a manga protagonist to face obstacles.”

 

[Error]

I think the 4th is the most badass of all the Hokages, dude came up with his own shit, didn't have a hax bloodline jutsu, was a genius, calm and collected. Basically the perfect shinobi, before Kishimoto introduced the ridiculous jutsus and the lame tailed beasts battles later in the manga.

 

[simplythebest]

You guys arguing/debating over who's the strongest character in Naruto here,but I got a better question. Who are the top 5 characters in the Naruto series Kishimoto wasted or never really used who had great potential

My top 5:

5. Konan

Great character design,seemed pretty interesting but was pushed to a useless 3rd wheel role to Nagoto and Yahiko. Then killed off in a boring all-out manner,could of been great as a Hidden Rain village leader ally to Konoha if you ask me.

4. Anko

Another great character who had literally NO screen time in the manga or outside anime fillers. Had a curse seal and we never got to see her in her bad-assery state of it. Finally top that off with her reemergence in chapter 700 as a walking jelly roll.

3.Rock Lee or TenTen

Okay not really just one person but you can pick either of the two really.Two words for Rock lee...drunken fist. Such a great style never used again in part 2,Lee was way more awesome in part 1 but didnt do jack in part 2 outside of fillers. As for Tenten, she was just NEVER used at all except in comical relief ''sigh'' moments.

2.Sakura

Well she had more screen time than the previous listed,but for every step forward with her character Kishimoto took her 3 steeps backwards. One moment she's strong willed and next she's reverted back to whiny weak minded Sakura from part 1. Now I'm satisfied with the outcome of the manga and YES the pairings for other reasons in my earlier post about relationship building with the timeskip,but Kishi should of made up his mind on this character lol.

1. Hinata

Great character little screen time aka that big self empowering moment,but the outcome we got I'm okay with it though. With that said she should of had more screen time or interactions early in part 2 with Naruto that were more meaningful before the Pein fight/war.I am huge fan of relationship building and it would of been nice to see this,also I wish she had a Sakura vs Sasori coming out party moment of her own. Would of been badass and you guys know I'm right lol. Anyways I look forward to ''The Last'' movie and seeing if some of these questions are answered.

Bonus (mention): Tayuya

Badass character was badass and her flute jutsu's was off the chain!

Most of this list just had to be female characters

 

[DryEyeRelief]

This is what I mean. No one ever said that Hiruzen was stronger than the first two Kages.

People just decided that he was stronger because he was able to stop them with the death reaper seal.

Also, he definitely knew he wanted Hashirama to be stronger during part one. Why else would he use the statues of Madara and Hashirama as a backdrop during the valley of the end fight?

...When did you start reading Naruto? I starting reading when the Sasuke Retrieval/Sound 5 arc was new and being released week to week. So I see the disparity from that and the Chuunin exams. If you binged on Naruto when Part 1 already completed, and see Part 1 as this huge mass I guess retcon isn't as obvious.
For perspective, the Chuunin exam arc ended around the 100s? Where as the Sound 5 arc was the early 200s? So that's about a 2 year difference. That's enough time to retcon something.

Also the idea that Sarutobi was the strongest comes from the Iruka statement. It's not unfounded.

 

[The Silver]

Why would the statues mean anything regarding Hashi/Madara's strength? They were the founders of the village, that's reason enough for the statues.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Why would the statues mean anything regarding Hashi/Madara's strength? They were the founders of the village, that's reason enough for the statues.

Hype purposes. You wouldn't draw a parallel to Sasuke and Naruto's future rivalry if it wasn't something major. I understand what Dusk Soldier is getting at, but I don't think Kishimoto had that direction for the series at the start.

 

[The Silver]

Hype purposes. You wouldn't draw a parallel to Sasuke and Naruto's future rivalry if it wasn't something major. I understand what Dusk Soldier is getting at, but I don't think Kishimoto had that direction for the series at the start.

Yeah again that says nothing to the strength of the two characters. They can be(obviously they were) major super important figures and Hiruzen could still have been stronger than them.

I also find it funny that they made a giant statue of a guy who was trying to blow up the village. And they apparently don't teach anything about him in ninja school(as evidenced by Sasuke) despite having said statue next to Hashirama.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Yeah again that says nothing to the strength of the two characters. They can be(obviously they were) major super important figures and Hiruzen could still have been stronger than them.

I also find it funny that they made a giant statue of a guy who was trying to blow up the village. And they apparently don't teach anything about him in ninja school(as evidenced by Sasuke) despite having said statue next to Hashirama.

Actually, it makes sense.

Senju and Uchiha reach an agreement. Village is founded. Statues erected. Madara goes insane, leaves village, tries to attack it.

Doesn't sound like the kind of guy you want to set an example for the next generation, or even acknowledge. But the giant statue was still there, so they just called him "Hashirama's rival" out of respect for their friendship, but stopped passing on knowledge of his personality and what he did.

 

[The Silver]

Actually, it makes sense.

Senju and Uchiha reach an agreement. Village is founded. Statues erected. Madara goes insane, leaves village, tries to attack it.

Doesn't sound like the kind of guy you want to set an example for the next generation, or even acknowledge. But the giant statue was still there, so they just called him "Hashirama's rival" out of respect for their friendship, but stopped passing on knowledge of his personality and what he did.

the statues were made after Madara attacked when the VOTE was created from the fight.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yeah again that says nothing to the strength of the two characters. They can be(obviously they were) major super important figures and Hiruzen could still have been stronger than them.

There's a reason for the retcon. Once the 3rd Hokage was killed off, he served no purpose in the story anymore. Giving him the title as the strongest becomes a deadweight with the climbing power levels.

It's why it's an obvious retcon. If Kishimoto had the foresight that the story would involve all this stuff about Hashirama and his cells being a plot device, then he wouldn't have hyped the 3rd in that way. It worked to make the Chuunin exam end seem more climatic, but it didn't serve a purpose outside of that arc.

I also find it funny that they made a giant statue of a guy who was trying to blow up the village. And they apparently don't teach anything about him in ninja school(as evidenced by Sasuke) despite having said statue next to Hashirama.

Heh, agreed.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Yeah, part 1 was already done when I got into Naruto.

I was anime-only back then too, that's maybe why I have a different perspective on this.

When they did the 2 years of straight fillers, the anime stuck to a rotation of the same 9 characters (Naruto, Kiba, Hinata, Shino, Ino, Choji, Lee, TenTen, Neji). Other characters would be used occasionally, but those 9 were the only ones that ever got to fight.

The reason for that was because they were the only characters we ever got to see fight at full power, it was too hard to do fights for characters like Kakashi or Asuma w/o either spoiling or contradicting later manga events, so use of those characters was avoided.

Kishimoto deliberately tip-toed around showing jounins fighting because he didn't want us to know how powerful those characters really were.

To me, it doesn't seem fair to call Senju Kage's power levels a retcon, when he wrote pretty much every jounin the same way.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

the statues were made after Madara attacked when the VOTE was created from the fight.

Oh... good point.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yeah, part 1 was already done when I got into Naruto.

I was anime-only back then too, that's maybe why I have a different perspective on this.

When they did the 2 years of straight fillers, the anime stuck to a rotation of the same 9 characters (Naruto, Kiba, Hinata, Shino, Ino, Choji, Lee, TenTen, Neji). Other characters would be used occasionally, but those 9 were the only ones that ever got to fight.

The reason for that was because they were the only characters we ever got to see fight at full power, it was too hard to do fights for characters like Kakashi or Asuma w/o either spoiling or contradicting later manga events, so use of those characters was avoided.

Kishimoto deliberately tip-toed around showing jounins fighting because he didn't want us to know how powerful those characters really were.

To me, it doesn't seem fair to call Senju Kage's power levels a retcon, when he wrote pretty much every jounin the same way.

First off you lost me using anime fillers for this reasoning.

Second, again I think this is a result of you just watching Part 1 as one giant mass of stuff. The Jounin take a backseat in the Chuunin exam arc because...well it wasn't about them. But the first arc of the series was built off of Zabuza vs Kakashi. The finale of the Tsunade arc was the Sannin battle. That simply isn't true.

Third, it's not as if the characters with little screentime in Part 1 received more in Part 2. The percentage of Kakashi fights is about the same. Kurenai became pregnant, Asuma became fodder. Anko gained weight.

Finally, what exactly is there to spoil? Kabuto actually shows more of his abilities in part 1 than 2. Orochimaru in Part 2 gets one shotted. Kakashi in part 1 uses raikri a lot and that doesn't change in Part 2.

 

[Unknown One]

One thing for sure, I do not believe for a second that Lee couldn't beat Neji. There is no way Neji would have survived the onslaught Lee gave to Gaara.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Why did you rank Neji so highly?

I actually see Neji as one of the strongest due to his Byakugan techniques. He was always lauded as one of if no the strongest (next to Sasuke and Naruto) in Part 1. Kishi dropped the ball in part 2 by not giving him fighting time.

I reckon there should of been a Team 8 vs Akatsuki pair like Shikamaru's team got.

Naruto over Madara lol

Plz stop it

Madara would DESTROY everyone.

Pretty much.

Strongest character to ever exist. Even Kaguya would not be able to handle that.

One thing for sure, I do not believe for a second that Lee couldn't beat Neji. There is no way Neji would have survived the onslaught Lee gave to Gaara.

I'm pretty sure neji could just read his moves using byakugan.......it would be hard to react to them though but he could just use rotation and blast his away lol.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I actually see Neji as one of the strongest due to his Byakugan techniques. He was always lauded as one of if no the strongest (next to Sasuke and Naruto) in Part 1. Kishi dropped the ball in part 2 by not giving him fighting time.

Everyone's status at the beginning of Part 2 seemed to be Kishimoto's way of ranking them strength wise

Kage: Gaara
Jounin: Neji, Temari, Kankurou
Chuunin: Everyone else

 

[rrc1594]

Best thing about Madara is unlike most of Naruto's " Villains". He had no regret if he could he would of done all over again.

Madara is a true Shinobi warrior. If you think other wise well.....

 

[Dominican Power]

Hashirama>>>>>Madara.

 

[The Leviathan]

Most of this list just had to be female characters

Yup,I realized Kishimotoo really takes shits on his female characters in the manga. You could say its the Shonen genre specialty but that's total bullshit. Just look back on the whole series and say I'm not right? Some of these characters would of been awesome if developed right and not abandoned halfway through the series. Don't get me wrong though,love the series but I'm just pointing out the flaws.

 

[Unknown One]

Konan was awesome. She would have killed Obito if it wasn't for double bullshit eye hax. Phasing + Izanagi. She's the batman of Narutoverse.

 

[The Silver]

Batman's prep time doesn't fail in spectacular fashion.