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NBA 2004 PreSeason Thread
- Thread starter Miguel
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bionic77 said:
Wait, so Shaq was in his prime in 1994-95 AND in 1999-2002? That's a mighty long prime dude.
Shaq was nowhere near his prime when Hakeem was in his-- it was Shaq's second and third seasons in the league, for crying out loud. Nobody peaks that early in their careers, though if you insist that he did, I'd say that the mere fact of Shaq's apparent 8+ year prime speaks volumes toward my point that he's one of the best ever.
By way of comparison, Dream's prime lasted only 3-4 years imo, from 1992-96, and even '92 is questionable. This is not to say that he isn't likely the most TALENTED and skilled big man to ever play the game, because I believe that he is. But there's more than skill involved when you're picking the best ever.
clearly, as illustrated in that little clip, kobe held ray down with his arm. but, it's preseason, and it's kobe, and it's the lakers, so nothing is gonna be called.. oh well. actually, i woulndn't be surprised if ray let him have the block for shits and giggles...they are friends, afterall.
watching ray vs kobe brings back memories of magic johnson vs gp. two of the greatest guards during their timeperiod going at it...or stockton vs gp.
kobe has always been #1, though. ray following closely at #2.
watching ray vs kobe brings back memories of magic johnson vs gp. two of the greatest guards during their timeperiod going at it...or stockton vs gp.
kobe has always been #1, though. ray following closely at #2.
DMczaf said:
"Hey dad, you proved Loki wrong! Huggles!"
:lol
I should've added "barring extenuating circumstances such as rampant substance abuse, trying to emulate Charles Barkley's post-retirement corpulence, real or imagined injury, or fathering children in dozens of area codes and possibly several continents."
Loki said::lol
I should've added "barring extenuating circumstances such as rampant substance abuse, trying to emulate Charles Barkley's post-retirement corpulence, real or imagined injury, or fathering children in dozens of area codes and possibly several continents."
:lol :lol :lol
Shawn Kemp, a man among boys!
Loki said:Wait, so Shaq was in his prime in 1994-95 AND in 1999-2002? That's a mighty long prime dude.
Shaq was nowhere near his prime when Hakeem was in his-- it was Shaq's second and third seasons in the league, for crying out loud. Nobody peaks that early in their careers, though if you insist that he did, I'd say that the mere fact of Shaq's apparent 8+ year prime speaks volumes toward my point that he's one of the best ever.
By way of comparison, Dream's prime lasted only 3-4 years imo, from 1992-96, and even '92 is questionable. This is not to say that he isn't likely the most TALENTED and skilled big man to ever play the game, because I believe that he is. But there's more than skill involved when you're picking the best ever.
Shaq was playing great in 94-95, but his game kind of fell apart after the finals. He blamed it on a stomach injury, but I don't know, that whole Magic team just seemed to have quit (hmm, this seems to be a habit of the Magic? 0-19?
). Shaq then regained his form the year Phil showed up and maintained that for 3 years before he stopped working out and became fat again. He looks to be in shape again now, so maybe he will being to peak again this year? And yeah I agree the Dream only dominated for 3-4 years, but he was at a higher level then Shaq ever reached. It isn't just me that believes this, Dream's teammate Horry believes that the Dream is the greatest player he has ever played with. I wonder how good Hakeem would have been if he had grown up playing basketball instead of soccer?
And finally Hakeen killed a damned Lion with his bare hands. A LION! Shaq never killed a Lion with his bare hands.
Dream > Shaq > Kemp > Jordan (he is just too short)
Here's the simple truth...the Shaquille O'Neal from 1999 to 2002 would take any version of Hakeem (or any other center in history) and break his back with his knee. No fucking way Hakeem's 230 pound frame does anything to someone who's a hundred pounds heavier with moves almost as quick.
http://www.nba.com/games/20041015/PHITOR/recap.html
Raptors lost tonight. 99-97 AI scored 30+ in the first 3 QTRs, Vince, Bosh and Lamond Murray with 15 each. We play the Sixers again on sunday, in this crazy preseason.
Raptors lost tonight. 99-97 AI scored 30+ in the first 3 QTRs, Vince, Bosh and Lamond Murray with 15 each. We play the Sixers again on sunday, in this crazy preseason.
No one thinks it's amazing that Charlotte took Washington to 2OT? Granted, it's Washington, but we have a bunch of SCRUBS! Our starting five was Jason Hart, Gerald Wallace, Tamar Slay, Emeka Okafor, and Primoz Brezec. Here's some stat lines:
Brezec: 9-13 FGs, 8-11 FTs, 26 Pts, 11 Rebs, 2 Asts
Okafor: 8-12 FGs, 2-4 FTs, 18 Pts, 4 Rebs, 1 Ast
Wallace: 10-20 FGs, 6-8 FTs, 26 Pts, 12 Rebs, 5 Asts
Hart: 8-15 FGs, 2-3 FTs, 19 Pts, 4 Rebs, 6 Asts
Slay: 6-10 FGs, 1-3 FTs, 13 Pts, 3 Rebs, 1 Ast
Pretty good for a rookie and a bunch of scrubs.
Brezec: 9-13 FGs, 8-11 FTs, 26 Pts, 11 Rebs, 2 Asts
Okafor: 8-12 FGs, 2-4 FTs, 18 Pts, 4 Rebs, 1 Ast
Wallace: 10-20 FGs, 6-8 FTs, 26 Pts, 12 Rebs, 5 Asts
Hart: 8-15 FGs, 2-3 FTs, 19 Pts, 4 Rebs, 6 Asts
Slay: 6-10 FGs, 1-3 FTs, 13 Pts, 3 Rebs, 1 Ast
Pretty good for a rookie and a bunch of scrubs.
bionic77 said:Shaq was playing great in 94-95, but his game kind of fell apart after the finals. He blamed it on a stomach injury, but I don't know, that whole Magic team just seemed to have quit (hmm, this seems to be a habit of the Magic? 0-19?
And yeah I agree the Dream only dominated for 3-4 years, but he was at a higher level then Shaq ever reached. It isn't just me that believes this, Dream's teammate Horry believes that the Dream is the greatest player he has ever played with. I wonder how good Hakeem would have been if he had grown up playing basketball instead of soccer?
And finally Hakeen killed a damned Lion with his bare hands. A LION! Shaq never killed a Lion with his bare hands.
Dream > Shaq > Kemp > Jordan (he is just too short)
Shaq can eat a lion, Dream can't.
First off, nobody is denying that Shaq was playing "great ball" in '94-95, but that wasn't the point. You said that he was in his "prime" back then, which is patently false. First off, none of the all-time greats come into the league with a few lackluster seasons before they all of a sudden "become" an all-time great (the exception being the recent influx of high school draftees like KG/Kobe/J. O'Neal etc., who may all become/are all-time greats). Every great player from Barkley, to Malone and Stockton, to Jordan, to Shaq and Hakeem-- all of them came into the league kicking all sorts of ass. That doesn't mean that they were in their "prime", however. The fact of the matter is that Hakeem in his prime was NOT playing against Shaq in HIS prime, which is what you stated. Was he playing against a great young player in Shaq? Sure. But a player's prime is when he puts it all together and becomes a complete player and a dominating presence in the game. And personally, I'd take 1999-2002 Shaq on my team WAY before I took Hakeem-- he just changes the entire complexion of a game by his very presence in a way that Hakeem simply never did.
Like I said, I have NO problem admitting that Hakeem was the more skilled player, the more talented and gifted big man-- but the criterion for my personal top 5 lists usually consists of "who would I want on my team", not "who has better skills". Oscar Robertson may have been a more skilled player than Larry Bird, going by the numbers-- does that make him a better player? Not to my mind, it doesn't; Bird's clutch ability, leadership, rings. and just plain bad-assedness puts him over the top, despite Robertson's statistical edge (which can be interpreted as greater "skill"). It's a similar situation with Shaq/Hakeem, though in Shaq's case the factors separating him from Shaq are different from those separating Bird from Oscar.
Btw, Shaq also put up one of-- if not THE-- sickest stat line I've ever seen in a game back in 1993-94 against NJ:
39 points on 14-18 shooting (if he'd have hit more than 11 of his 21 foul shots that game, it would've been in the mid-high 40's), 28 rebounds (his career high), 15 blocks (also his career high), and like 8 or 9 assists. He almost became only the third or fourth player in history to notch a quadruple double, but with RIDICULOUS #'s like that, who cares that he fell short? That's just a MONSTROUS line.
Triple-Doubles - Entering the 2000-2001 season, Hakeem has amassed 14 career triple-doubles, four of which have come at the expense of the Golden State Warriors. On March 3, 1990, just 26 days prior to recording just the third quadruple-double in NBA history, Hakeem fell one assist shy of posting what would have been his first quadruple-double when he racked up 29 points, 18 rebounds, 11 blocks and nine assists against Golden State.
March 03, 1990 - 29 points, 18 rebounds, 11 blocks and nine assists
March 29, 1990 - 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocks and 10 assists
Almost did it twice in one season
March 03, 1990 - 29 points, 18 rebounds, 11 blocks and nine assists
March 29, 1990 - 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocks and 10 assists
Almost did it twice in one season
Not that it's not an incredible accomplishment and a testament to a player's versatility to achieve the elusive "quadruple double", but I've always felt that it was a bit "center heavy", meaning that it's FAR easier for a big man to accomplish the feat than a little man.
Jordan almost had one in a game where he had 10 steals (which he did twice in his career); he fell two assists shy, however. The point being that it's MUCH rarer for a guard to get 10 steals than it is for a good big man to get 10+ blocks. The latter happens about 3 times/year, I'd say, whereas the last player to notch 10 steals in a game was Allen Iverson, I believe, in the 2001 playoffs (though his NBA.com profile lists 9 steals as his career high, I distinctly recall this feat on his part). Of course you then have to put the rest of the package (assists, points, rebounds-- the rebounds are also much more infrequent for guards/SF's) together also, but just based on the rarity of a 10-steal game, it's much easier for centers and PF's to attain a quadruple-double than it is for a guard or small forward.
I'd take Shaq's statline that I listed above before Hakeem's quadruple double numbers you posted any day of the week.
Jordan almost had one in a game where he had 10 steals (which he did twice in his career); he fell two assists shy, however. The point being that it's MUCH rarer for a guard to get 10 steals than it is for a good big man to get 10+ blocks. The latter happens about 3 times/year, I'd say, whereas the last player to notch 10 steals in a game was Allen Iverson, I believe, in the 2001 playoffs (though his NBA.com profile lists 9 steals as his career high, I distinctly recall this feat on his part). Of course you then have to put the rest of the package (assists, points, rebounds-- the rebounds are also much more infrequent for guards/SF's) together also, but just based on the rarity of a 10-steal game, it's much easier for centers and PF's to attain a quadruple-double than it is for a guard or small forward.
I'd take Shaq's statline that I listed above before Hakeem's quadruple double numbers you posted any day of the week.
Miguel said:
IAWTP
I may be delusional in my respect for Hakeem, but I really feel for 3-4 years he was one of the greatest players of all time. He literally dominated every aspect of the game in a way I have never seen any player do in my lifetime. He never got the respect he deserved.
Miguel said:
LOL, I always loved that Rockets team man. I just loved the way the Dream played basketball.
Horry would know better then us and he is right in saying that Dream was a better player then Shaq (this while he was still on the Lakers). And yet, that line never got any press because Hakeem never claimed to be like the "Big Aristotle" or something of the sort.
Hakeem took David Robinson's manhood away from him, probably the single greatest accomplishment of all time in professional basketball considering Robinson is a 50 greatest player.
bionic77 said:
Wilt's domination of Russell in some of those playoffs was better statistically, but Hakeem's DEMOLISHING of Robinson was just nuts-- the greatest one-on-one ass-whooping of our time. That famous move Hakeem made, where he crosses over and drives baseline, fakes the shot, turns around and does an up-and-under that Robinson bites on, and then ducks under for the lay-in is quite simply one of the sickest sequences EVER. Dream was LIGHTNING quick for a big man; Robinson was hung out to dry on three separate occassions in one play, in the span of 3 seconds. :lol
Bowser said:
Nuff said.:lol
Seriously though, that's a pretty wild scoreline in this day and age of 90-89 games.
And since we're in the process of embarassing my boy D-Rob, Shaq's dunk over him at the all star game in San Antonio (think this was MJ's first ASG since the first retirement) is one of the two or three sickest posterizations in the history of basketball. The ball bounced off David's head and literally flew back 8 to 12 rows in the stands. I sure heard about it in college the following day. :lol
Still, he's got his two rings, MVP, retirement, peace of mind, and most importantly a reputation untarnished and intact...unlike Hakeem and his pathetic Raptors tenure, Shaq's squawking, Kobe's sodomizing, Melo's Pippening, and every superstar not named TD and KG wanting a trade.
David Robinson...a fine Naval officier.
Miguel said:
Yeah, I actually remember when Drexler recorded that statline-- I was like "WTF?" Over the steals, mostly, because he was never noted for that, really...especially at that advanced age. He was always a versatile player, though, and likely the second-best rebounding guard of his generation behind Jordan. They were recently showing a tribute to him on NBA TV for his Hall of Fame induction, and some of the stuff he did back in the day was just RIDICULOUS-- more athletic than pretty much any player today with the possible exception of TMac. Seriously-- the guy was nuts.
Shinobi said:
Well, besides the Bulls, I never really "followed" any team, and even with them, it was mostly because of Jordan, who I just loved to watch-- he would do something you had never seen before in every single game, if you were watching closely enough.
But I do like watching certain teams more than others. Historically, I like watching the 80's Lakers and Celtics (in general, not just playing against each other) on Classic Sports or NBA TV, the 92-94 Suns were great fun to watch, the championship Rockets teams, the Magic with Penny/Shaq, the early-mid 80's 76'ers with Barkley, Dr. J and Moses Malone; more recently, I liked watching the Lakers from '99-'02 (even though I despise them, they played a good brand of ball those years), the Mavericks, and definitely the Kings, all the way from when Jason Williams was on their team until now.
All those teams played an exciting style of ball, with good team play for the most part, and many of them had exciting indvidual player(s) who I enjoyed watching in particular. Of all those teams, I'd say I like watching the 80's Lakers, recent Kings teams, and '93-94 Suns and Rockets teams the most. That Suns team for those two or three years from '92-'94, well...I still don't know how they didn't win a championship-- they were a great team, and had all the pieces.
bionic77 said:
Yeah, I know-- and Jordan the year before in '93. I'm just saying, you gotta give props to that Suns team; they played a great style of exciting team ball, and could play several different styles of ball (halfcourt, fastbreak, grind-it-out defensive style etc.).
In my opinion, they were probably the best team that never won a championship.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
Shinobi said:Still, he's got his two rings, MVP, retirement, peace of mind, and most importantly a reputation untarnished and intact...unlike Hakeem and his pathetic Raptors tenure, Shaq's squawking, Kobe's sodomizing, Melo's Pippening, and every superstar not named TD and KG wanting a trade.
David Robinson...a fine Naval officier.
Thank you for that last part, Shinobi. I was about to cry my ass off, because David is my fav player of All-Time and this fuckers where starting to rip this gentleman to shreds. :-(
But I agree, the dismantling by Hakeem and Shaq's dunk on the AS game were the toughest moments I went through as a DRob fan. But all is forgotten now that he went out on top, as a champion on and off the court.
And my respects to Hakeem, one of the greatests. He was a joy to watch on the court, even against the Spurs. The things he did were unmatched.
As for Kobe's block, what's the big fuss about it? Are Laker fans so desperate already about the upcoming season that they're looking for gratification on such insignificant things? Or did they missed the fact that after the block the punk kept staring at Ray(probably asking for a piece of ass) while Ridnour recover the ball and passed it to Rashard Lewis for an easy basket? Yep, it's going to be a long season for the Lakers and their ""leader".
:lol I nearly fell on the floor when I was thumbing through a NBA preview guide a few days ago (think it was the CBS guide), and didn't even have the Lakers making the playoffs. :lol And it isn't that far out of the realm of possibility...for starters their front court simply isn't very good in my eyes, unless Malone returns and is relatively healthy. Moreover, with the Spurs and TWolves being the two consensus powers in the west and the Kings a notch or two below, you also have steady and emerging squads in Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Memphis, Houston and Utah. So the Lakers will want to get off to a good start in November, or it could be a looooooong winter in la-la land.
Just watch as the Lakers take the number 3 seed this year! Haters are pouncing on the weakened Laker squad......
I hope they don't go the Knicks route and try to get back in one year, they need to take their time and rebuild.
Also, notice Shaq is already hurt in the preseason.... People were laughing when Vlade got hurt, but I told you all Shaq was not going to be able to play a full season, his body is just too broken for anything more then 60 games IMO.
I hope they don't go the Knicks route and try to get back in one year, they need to take their time and rebuild.
Also, notice Shaq is already hurt in the preseason.... People were laughing when Vlade got hurt, but I told you all Shaq was not going to be able to play a full season, his body is just too broken for anything more then 60 games IMO.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
At least Shaq can get your team Ws when he plays. Vlade is a non factor either way.
Marbury is not that stupid afterall. He just saw Tim taking it to anotha lebol, then to anotha lebol, and the lebol after that.
Marbury is not that stupid afterall. He just saw Tim taking it to anotha lebol, then to anotha lebol, and the lebol after that.
BatiGOOOOOOL said:Marbury is not that stupid afterall. He just saw Tim taking it to anotha lebol, then to anotha lebol, and the lebol after that.
And den we gonna take it to anudda lebol... :lol
I swear, that Marbury quote still cracks me up nearly 2 years later lol. You can just keep making it more absurd to suit your fancy, sorta like the whole "dey took errrr jeeeebbbbsss" stuff floating around.
I still say that during that interview Marbury should have been subjected to a drug analysis ON THE SPOT. With all the illicit substances likely floating around inside, all he needs to do is join the Trailblazers and his career will be complete. My sister said that Steph (who's never been the brightest bulb-- I met him a couple of times during pick-up games back in the day; he went to HS 2 minutes from my house) spoke at a teacher's convention she attended in NYC (maybe it was for her union, I'm not sure); she goes to me afterwards, "I can't believe that they got him to speak at a teacher's convention-- I've never heard someone so dumb, and he sounded drunk; I couldn't believe some of the things that came out of his mouth. Maybe they wanted to show us how much some people really need us". :lol
All Hail C-Webb
Hailing from the Chill-Web
Can I get in the league?
God it's so great to see Webber on the court again.
God it's so great to see Webber on the court again.
Ninja Scooter
Member
-i would kill someone if Kobe bryant asked me to.
Matrix
LeBron loves his girlfriend. There is no other woman in the world hed rather have. The problem is, Dwyanes not a woman.
Tmac has looked really good passing the ball,unlike castoffs Steve and Mobley.Tmac has gotten any shot he has wanted,he just cant sink them..he's just off Kobex.
:lol @ Piston
:lol @ Piston
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