DannyDanger
Member
Holy Shit... Kojima + Gits?
Perfect fit
Edit: I guess I should post about the topic. I'm a metal gear super fan. This is the best MGS ever
Nearly 160 hours in, MGSV still feels SO GOOD to play (controls, feedback, game feel)
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
Holy Shit... Kojima + Gits?
Perfect fit
Edit: I guess I should post about the topic. I'm a metal gear super fan. This is the best MGS ever
Cyborg
Member
I dont agree OP.
This game starts really strong, every mission is different. But after 10hours you have seen it all.
- rescue him
- eliminate them
- fulton this, that
- retrieve him/her
- and so on
You start asking yourself when will I have a story, even the main missions follow the same patern. Im now at main mission 43 and did a lot of side ops but they are all the same.
In my opinion this is the worst MGS game ever created in terms of story (depth), surprise plots and pacing of the game. The gameplay is good but after 30 sideops I have seen enough.
I expected so much more but whoever thought Kojima showed us all the cutscenes in the trailers!
This game starts really strong, every mission is different. But after 10hours you have seen it all.
- rescue him
- eliminate them
- fulton this, that
- retrieve him/her
- and so on
You start asking yourself when will I have a story, even the main missions follow the same patern. Im now at main mission 43 and did a lot of side ops but they are all the same.
In my opinion this is the worst MGS game ever created in terms of story (depth), surprise plots and pacing of the game. The gameplay is good but after 30 sideops I have seen enough.
I expected so much more but whoever thought Kojima showed us all the cutscenes in the trailers!
Almost all of them
Dragon1893
Member
Indeed, the gameplay/controls are fantastic.
My only gripe is that sometimes when approaching a rock Snake slides upwards to the top of the rock, which has caused me to get spotted by enemies more than once.
It's easy to forget the game's flaws when the gameplay is so fun and satisfying.
Speaking of which, some people really need to read the OP.
My only gripe is that sometimes when approaching a rock Snake slides upwards to the top of the rock, which has caused me to get spotted by enemies more than once.
It's easy to forget the game's flaws when the gameplay is so fun and satisfying.
Speaking of which, some people really need to read the OP.
I'm glad it's not just me, my feelings are exactly this. Ten missions in I thought this was one of the all-time greats, fifteen missions later I was willing it to be over. Great controls indeed (for an open world game, directing a crawl sometimes in infuriating with its imprecision), some fantastic ideas, absolutely no story at all (all those weird and interesting characters, does nothing with them!), and no direction after the 15-20 hour mark. A massive disappointment and easily the worst of the five numbered games for me. And I say that really disliking the first one.
I came here to post this. Controls are great, but what you actually do with them in the game is blah.
Interesting. I came in here precisely to say how sluggish the movement in Witcher 3 feels going back to it after V.
The controls, animation fluidity and prioritization of maneuverability above all else make MGSV so damn good to handle.
They don't penalise you for doing so, they just incentivise you not to. Which is the perfect stealth game design and has been in use since Thief 2. It doesn't mean there's only one way to play the game.
We've been over all of this before. Because you didn't feel like you had options when playing the game, and you obviously didn't engage with the game's overall mechanics and simulation, doesn't mean the game is "not there".
RadioJoNES64
Banned
I know right? It's so smooth and perfect. Congrats to Hideo for this masterpiece.
Ouchie mama.
Ouchie mama.
My only gripe is they need to force you to use all of your weapons at some point. I've developed over 300 weapons and used less than 15 of them. Another gripe is the economy. Let me spec out my mother base more. I'm sitting on 9.5 million GMP with nothing to develop. Another gripe is not being able to complete side objectives in a mission and having them stay with you without having to fully complete the mission.
I'm over 300 hours in unofficially having gotten through Chapter 1 and going through chapter 2 so these gripes are legit. I took my time with the game and S ranked 82 percent of the missions in Chapter 1.
I'm over 300 hours in unofficially having gotten through Chapter 1 and going through chapter 2 so these gripes are legit. I took my time with the game and S ranked 82 percent of the missions in Chapter 1.
I think it's funny how many people respond to threads without reading the actual post and just go by a quick skim the thread title. The OP is saying the controls are great and always feel fresh, nothing in it is about the content past that (well in the OP anyway).
Also, if side missions are boring to people, don't do them? The important ones are all in big yellow letters. There's no reward for doing most of them past the points, soldiers/materials obtained, and % score, and the ones where that do offer something more telegraph it (legendary gunsmith, translator, legendary animals, etc). I wish they hadn't even numbered the other side ops or made them add to the %. Just made them a revolving door of reoccurring optional missions that appeared in the menu like dispatch missions or in free roam, then people maybe wouldn't get so hung up on doing them all to the point of burnout and people that enjoy them would continue to play them as normal. Not like the game is missing content without them.
EDIT: onn the topic of the game heavily favoring non-lethal weapons, because you won't be able to fulton dead guys: If you don't fulton anyone in a mission, the game gives you more volunteers than you would get otherwise. This is really obvious when doing no trace runs or using all lethal weaponry for the code names (which is one of the times the game does force players to use more of their arsenal rather than the obvious non-lethal guns). And the penalization for killing someone is less than the one for using reflex, yet I bet most people used reflex without feeling like the game forced them not to because of the scoring system.
Also, if side missions are boring to people, don't do them? The important ones are all in big yellow letters. There's no reward for doing most of them past the points, soldiers/materials obtained, and % score, and the ones where that do offer something more telegraph it (legendary gunsmith, translator, legendary animals, etc). I wish they hadn't even numbered the other side ops or made them add to the %. Just made them a revolving door of reoccurring optional missions that appeared in the menu like dispatch missions or in free roam, then people maybe wouldn't get so hung up on doing them all to the point of burnout and people that enjoy them would continue to play them as normal. Not like the game is missing content without them.
EDIT: onn the topic of the game heavily favoring non-lethal weapons, because you won't be able to fulton dead guys: If you don't fulton anyone in a mission, the game gives you more volunteers than you would get otherwise. This is really obvious when doing no trace runs or using all lethal weaponry for the code names (which is one of the times the game does force players to use more of their arsenal rather than the obvious non-lethal guns). And the penalization for killing someone is less than the one for using reflex, yet I bet most people used reflex without feeling like the game forced them not to because of the scoring system.
Modest Mauser
Member
People bring the same comments about MGSV's plot into every thread now, even ones that aren't about that or ones not even related to MGS
This is how I feel. The core gameplay is rock solid as the OP states, and many developers could learn a thing or two from how polished it is, but the missions you're asked to do with this gameplay are just plain boring after a while. I finished mission 31 and burned out completely afterwards, and I decided to look up the spoilers on YouTube. And I'm glad I did that too because it's terrible.
I didn't really feel like MGSV valued my time at all, and just had me doing busywork in both side ops and the main campaign, and after a while I just realised I wasn't having fun and could be playing something else more gratifying. So I stopped.
Easily my least favourite MGS game, and I will probably be selling my copy soon enough.
lastflowers
Banned
maybe I should play this game.
Especially since I loved MGS2/3/4 when I replayed them all about 2 years ago? Once I'm not in a craze at work or playoff astros.
Especially since I loved MGS2/3/4 when I replayed them all about 2 years ago? Once I'm not in a craze at work or playoff astros.
FranXico
Member
The R&D waiting time goes for the most part unnoticed by me, since I spend the vast majority of that time performing side ops. There's just about enough variation on those too, about a dozen different side ops types, where each type iteration varies the amount/skill of enemies as well as their layout on the world map. In addition to all this, when revisiting bases you've been in before, you'll see higher ranked enemies now wearing body armor, helmets, gas masks, NVG, etc.
The game was designed with replayability in mind, and that is a very good thing.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Absolutely felt this way too.
Hold triangle, Y, or whatever key the PC version uses, and you'll automatically clamber over if you can. Makes it less fidgety. Same with holding circle while approaching land mines.
hydrophilic attack
Member
The animations are really good. I especially like the sprinting animation. It's frantic, like he's really giving his all, and the loud thuds your feet make as you sprint are so appropriate for 90 kg of muscular man-hunk-meat tearing through the terrain.
I wish I didn't have to work so much irl. Haven't had much time to play at all. I just beat mission 12. So much stuff left!
I wish I didn't have to work so much irl. Haven't had much time to play at all. I just beat mission 12. So much stuff left!
FranXico
Member
Although you're referring to a player intending the opposite response, this is the only complaint I have regarding the controls.
When approaching an object, the option to fulton or grab takes about a second to appear, and if you already were holding the button/key, the game registers it as a quick press instead of hold. Very often I got spotted due to getting into a jeep instead of fultoning it as intended.
Yep, that's a real problem. Worst on FOB's if you want to fulton an antiair gun or body near one. If you don't stop and do it extremely methodically you'll hop in the gun and probably get seen or dead.
Springfoot
Member
I totally agree with your posts about how the controls and the kinesthetic feel of controlling your character feels sublime, responsive, and weighty in just the right sense, but holy hell do I disagree about the level design. There were only 4-6 areas/bases in the entire game that felt genuinely well designed while the rest were from the "It's open world so fuck it, just plop down a handful of structures in the middle of some rolling terrain and sprinkle in some enemies" school of uninspired level design.
From what I've seen of the MGO3 maps, they're structured better than most of what we get in single player. Similarly, Ground Zeroes was head and shoulders better than anything else we got in TPP. There was a layered intricacy to it with different paths in and out of the various zones in the base connected and woven together in a way that varied the player experience to a much greater degree without feeling overly 'gamey' or unrealistic. Some paths required the player to use a lot of mobility and spatial reasoning, others were built around enemy sightlines and sneaking through cover, a few were focused on enemy density and taking them out quietly, and then others involved more lateral thinking (like hopping in the back of the truck)
The lack of any substantial verticality was a letdown that's been mentioned in a few other posts as well. Sure, you could climb atop certain structures, but those structures were effectively islands in a sea of terrain in which other buildings were simply strewn about. At no point did we get anything akin to Uncharted 2's Tibetan village where there were interconnected series of both elevated and ground pathways that the player could seamlessly weave between or a large single structure like the FEMA Detention Center in DX:HR that gave players choices for slipping between a multitude of elevations and secondary pathways (the oil processing plant was the closest but still pales by comparison). Those kinds of layered levels can only be properly realized in all three dimensions, while the vast majority of TPP's levels/bases/zones would have functioned nearly identically in only two dimensions. One area I thought was going to be amazing but was completely misused was the large bridge in Afghanistan that had a networked series of catwalks and stairs below it in the valley floor - it was perfectly designed for a fun experience that would force the player to think and consider all three dimensions of their playspace and sightlines, but instead they left everything beneath the upper surface of the bridge completely vacant, so none of it was really used.
This was closer to my experience after a few dozen hours in. I still loved the feeling of controlling Snake, I loved the various tools at my disposal and how many ways there were to interact with the enemies, but the level design and 'open world' just fell flat relative to everything else and was a big let down. After finishing the game I decided to drop into Afghanistan in the far upper right and make a big counterclockwise spiral around the map doing all the available Side Ops hoping to really get a sense of the open world, since I had played most of the game warping in and out of mission areas via helicopter. My god was it boring, there's literally nothing to do between camps (aside from picking my 500th flower or tranquilizing my 20th goat), and after I'd infiltrated the few interesting ones a couple times from a different directions, there was little about the various camps/bases/levels to hold much interest because their designs are so simplistic and uninspired. By comparison, I had infiltrated the GZ's base more than 20 times before starting to feel I had experienced all there was to do.
This echoes my thoughts and was summarized well in Super Bunnyhop's 'review' of the game as most missions boiling down to "make something disappear." There are plenty of other tasks the game could have given the player - MGS3 had us get face to face with the enemies by using a disguise - and they could have had missions with interesting goals like having us gather the necessary intel and uniforms to provide to one of your own men and then subsequently help insert him into an enemy base to serve as an intel informant, or sneak around a larger base making small adjustments in order to open it up to an incoming attack by a third party (like the Mujahideen), after which the player would have to sneak out during an open battle between NPC forces. There are all manner of interesting things they could have done, but instead it all boiled down to disappearing a thing into your inventory, disappearing an person with a bullet or a fulton, or diappearing a vehicle with an explosion or fulton.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I like the general world infrastructure design, too. Even the guard posts feel like they were designed by a MP balance team rather than just a cosmetic artist. The way cement blocks are spread apart to basically just be close enough to slow vehicles down but still allow the AI to swerve through. The patrols and supply truck routes, if you actually watch them. Power lines and comms are almost always put in a location that makes sense, has a sentry and clear LOS.
Every small guard post or camp around the world has a rather logical infrastructure layout. They even have radio call signs that correspond to their map tags, and you can use that to predict which direction enemy reinforcements come from. Each camp was rather specifically tailored from that sort of POV.
In pure cosmetic design of larger bases is great, too. In particular, I think the oil refinery is a joy to infiltrate at night, and OKB has a surprising number of cool little paths such as the underground sewer canal or what is seemingly one of the only damn cameras in the game ;p
I've been doing that. Great for smaller boulders and finches. My issue is that there's not a standard height. In certain missions there are some obstructions he can't climb over. In other missions he can climb taller obstruction than the others.
Springfoot
Member
Yeah, this is the clear result of their level designers having to manually place climbing points rather than using some kind of procedural system that checks against collision like the ACreed games (which the level designers are aware of from the get-go and then keep in mind when building levels). The result is a fair degree of inconsistency, especially in areas the designers may not have considered as important and thus didn't spend much time refining.
Similarly, they could have really benefited from some kind of tool that would have flagged tiny but steep vertices/triangles in the terrain mesh that result in Snake slipping and sliding when trying to run over a tiny 20cm bump that happens to be just passed his 'walkable angle threshold'.
On mobile, but just wanted to say that complaining about the goal of many missions being infiltrate/extract/destroy/exfiltrate is like complaining about the flagpole being the goal in Mario levels. It's what you do along the way that makes it different, including the lay of the land, which even in wilderness settings is thoughtfully designed, with rolling ridges and layered landscaping that allows you to slither around enemy sight-lines or misdirect them to your advantage. Then you factor in adaptive enemies and their cross-base communications, dynamic weather and time of day, buddies and support services, and your vast and ever-growing toolkit, plus the optional tasks involving rescues and eavesdropping, etc, and there is abundant variety to be had, even within the same mission type. The game continues to surprise me even now, which is amazing.
But there is verticality to many of the bases. The village Neiteio mentions being a prime example. OKBzero has it too. You've got the catwalks up top, sewers down below or the main level. Also Mission 22 on the R&D platform is the most vertical space in an MGS game this side of a 100 floor tower in MGS1. All FOBs are extremely vertical in general. What about the village Miller is in? Or the lion king rock, aka the abandoned village? Both very vertical as well. Not only is the whole place up hill, but going vertical first and traversing lower is extremely beneficial in both. Have you explored the bigger areas like OKB zero? filthy with just as many side routes as camp omega. Even the ruins area is vertical in the actual caves. Oh and the lufwa valley mansion is extremely vertical and filled to the brim with various ways in and out.
Well there are a lot of other objectives that involve things like gathering intel rather than making something disappear. They're just usually the side objectives as opposed to main ones. I agree having a NPC battle to do things in would be awesome though.
Yep. It's like bitching about how tedious and repetitive collecting all the stars in Mario Galaxy is. There's an increasing challenge or kink with each one even if aesthetically areas look the same. Sure it may get tiresome if you don't love platforming as an end unto itself, but a lot of people play those games to see the end credits, stop, and feel fulfilled. Even if they don't get the super secret all stars ending. MGSV similarly has each main mission aside from like 2-3 offer something new, either with enemy type, land layout, or restriction. And even the side ops have a gradual curve and method to where you do things and what you fight. Later mine clearings put a bear next to you, or put them in the jungle, etc.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
yeah by far the worst part... i find myself spamming triangle a lot.
worse, once you switch to urban areas like FOBs, that tendency can get you in a lot of trouble haha and the windows that separate 'jump across railing' and 'hop over railing' are very poorly separated.
sometimes i get lucky and pull it off during pvp
but most of the time lol i just end up hopping over and over and over and over.
I even practice it... went into a FOB a couple nows and just try practice it but because the window to 'jump across' disappears even if you stop moving (so it's not just a small window that turns off if you move too far; it actually just blinks so it can replace the 'leap over' one) it's hard to time... I sort of can repeat it now, luckily, especially during pvp lol because I think i'm spamming faster and I just get lucky. But it's still just poorly down when there could have easily been just a context sensitive way (hard tap to leap, soft deep press/hold to climb over).
LowParry
Member
The gameplay compliments the multiplayer is a huge way which I enjoy the hell out of. After going through the single player, it was time to set it aside for good. I'm usually the type of player that just beats the game and be done with it. Gameplay is out of this world though and love it. A damn shame we won't be getting another Metal Gear with this engine. To think we could of got something possibly improved on.
Primethius
Banned
If the missions are boring people because their overall objective is the same (e.g. rescue, kill, which isn't really even a complaint because it's so reductive in nature), then perhaps people aren't being creative enough?
It's a sandbox that the game offers you. If you tackle every mission in the same constrained way, I could see the game getting old fast. But not using the sandbox to the fullest doesn't really strike me as the fault of the game. I have over 120 hours into the game and I've yet to use everything it offers me (particularly because I haven't done lethal runs at all).
And not utilizing the sandbox would also result in not appreciating the finer details of the game. For one, the mission and level design is fantastic. The amount of constraints one can put on a play-style and still execute a proper run really demonstrates that.
It's a sandbox that the game offers you. If you tackle every mission in the same constrained way, I could see the game getting old fast. But not using the sandbox to the fullest doesn't really strike me as the fault of the game. I have over 120 hours into the game and I've yet to use everything it offers me (particularly because I haven't done lethal runs at all).
And not utilizing the sandbox would also result in not appreciating the finer details of the game. For one, the mission and level design is fantastic. The amount of constraints one can put on a play-style and still execute a proper run really demonstrates that.
Oh yeah this too. Although I can usually get the jump if I run first (not that you want to employ that work-around on most FOBs haha)
Actually I think what's worse is when you jump over instead of hanging, it's especially frustrating when I go to quickly fulton people near railings on the command platform first deck, and instead sail over the ledge (not even into hanging), possibly to my death. I remember getting the R&D shooting challenge done, and trying to climb down, and instead of hanging going straight over a ledge and having to do it again. One of the most frustrating moments in the game for me.
That's the big issue I have, and it's a pretty big one with FOB play. BTW, nice job going no HUD on FOB missions, that's ballsy.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think on Chapter 2 you have to do quite a bit of side missions to unlock the final chapters.
I only did a few side ops between each story mission in Ch. 2. And a number of those side ops were the yellow "Important Side Ops" with story payoffs (Man on Fire, AI Pod, etc). That seemed sufficient to unlock further story missions.
But it's a moot point because I don't ignore 90% of the game's offerings when playing side ops. Thus, they're not boring for me.
Inferno313
Banned
You have to do about 6-9 total in Chapter 2. it's not that bad.
Do you? I think you can do any mission. You could be go back and get objectives on main missions, I know because that's what I was usually doing when new missions or cutscenes unlocked. Like save all the children, and after you go back to a mission or two, no matter what one, the next big thing comes. But maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I honestly think one of the things that happened is they got an 8 to 10 hour game and tried to stretch it into a 40-50 hour game resulting in a lot of familiar mission and territory. I do know how reviewers and gamers mercilessly chastise games when they are supposedly short, so they could of been trying to find ways to prolong the length of the game with the content they had available to them.
I really loved it in Ground Zeroes when you were discovered with Paz and that muisic was going with the whole base on your ass. I think that's about as emotionally hefty as gameplay has ever been in a Kojima game, maybe outside MGS3's final boss fight.
WordsintheWater
Member
Plays awesome, but sadly the game fails in other aspects. Will be the first MGS game I ever trade in.
I think that's true. But a lot of people are unfortunately wary of doing that, and stick to their preferred method of playing. Or are afraid of playing "wrong." Or are only in it for story relevant content. Which is fine, if not too bad. Attacking a side op with a tank or something unusual is really fun.
The last armored vehicle side op was at the lion king rock and I did it by flying directly on top of it. The two armored vehicles would blow me up if I didn't kill them and the enemy chopper with the mini-gun on Pequod first. So it became a neat little turret shooter figuring out how to kill them all in time and in what order. I did it, got off, and Pequod blew up almost right after. I decided he needed revenge so I called in chopper air support and he came right back to life and promptly killed everyone left while i sat back and watched from the big rock in a lightning storm at night. He then landed and I got in and was done. Loved it. A highlight to me, but easily boring busy work to someone else.
Springfoot
Member
Like I said, there are a small handful of bases that were actually fun and interesting, but they're few and far between, and none really approaches the complexity of GZ. I liked the design of the MB platforms quite a bit and wish they were worked into the story more than the one FOB tutorial mission. Likewise, I wish they had taken design cues from the MB platforms and created similarly complex structures in Afghanistan or Africa, but that never happens. Having a stealthy sniper battle or fight with some mist skulls or Walker Gear enemies in a location built similarly to the complex MB platforms would have been terrific and forced the player to both move and think in all three dimensions, but no dice. We even see what could have been a great playspace in the area right at the very end of the OKB0 mission but are only allowed to walk along a small portion of it before getting hit with a cutscene.
Even the village you rescue Miller from seems like a missed opportunity. There are only a handful of places where you can get onto the roofs or elevated walkways, but the majority of the rooftops are inaccessible, and you're prevented from making running leaps from one elevated area to the roof of another building. It also has a few interior areas, but by and large they don't really connect in a meaningful or interesting way, or even allow you to change elevations while in the interior (aside from just one building I believe). Compare this to my UC2 Tibet example, where you can dart in and out of interiors, climb internal stairs, pop outside to run across little elevated bridges, drop down behind walls and bits of rubble on the ground, climb the exterior buildings using them simultaneously to aid movement and provide cover, etc. That kind of playspace would have worked brilliantly with MGSV's movement and items, would have been fun to use to the player's advantage, and would have had a ton of opportunities for enemies to show up in unexpected areas to surprise the player if they tried to move too quickly without caution.
And again, those few areas you mentioned along with perhaps 2 or 3 more are basically the only areas that approach interesting design, while the vast majority of the locations presented are basically flattish swaths of terrain (with perhaps a hill or two) and a cluster of solitary, simplistic 1-2 room structures plopped down. Afghanistan had more interesting level design than Africa and provided a couple bases that allowed you to move directly from an elevated terrain position to actually dropping down onto the structures that you wanted to infiltrate. For the most part though, the terrain in the majority of areas either served to funnel you into one of a few different starting choke points, or simply provided a distant overview before you had to drop down to ground level in order to make your actual approach.
Unrelated to the movement mechanics/controls (which I love) or the level design (which I feel was one giant missed opportunity after another), this ties into a gripe I had with the macro aspects of the game's design regarding the research and F2P-esque time wasting mechanics, which was that, despite the game forcing you to repeat areas so frequently, it did its damndest to make it annoying and tedious to acquire new gear in a way that would lend itself to experimentation. There are so many fun, interesting, and useful tools that can be used, but so many of them are gated off by hours-long waits for MB platforms to upgrade, so you can fill them with the staff you need, so you can start 20 minute to hour+ research times. If you've been investing in one 'primary' playstyle/equipment set and you see a side op that's going to be in a place you've already visited, doing a task you've already done (make a thing disappear), the game makes it hard and annoying to try something completely different on a whim.
Oh in that case, yeah, it's MGSV. That was something I was thinking of consistently while playing the game: it's the best controlling, best feeling third person shooter I've ever played.
Isn't the character control in Witcher 3 terrible?
OrlanisWorks
Banned
It is certainly not better than MGSV, but then again... MGSV doesn't have a jump button, and sometimes the prompt to hop up places never shows up which has screwed me over quite a few times... eh. Snake controls better on land, but he's also pretty limited in manuevers due to being stuck to the ground. Geralt controls pretty good now with alternate movement, I'd say.