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Nearly fourteen years since the two most controversial episodes of modern Star Trek
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
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beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
thanks for this, m.r. made me remember how much i love both these episodes.
i'm not entirely sure that they're controversial, but if they are, i think that's definitely good. "comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable," right? the eddington quote is particularly poignant because it points out how coercive the federation is. it's an impressive piece of writing that belongs right there alongside trevelyan's comments to bond in goldeneye, speaking in a very meta way about the franchise as a whole.
most of all they're great episodes because they feel honest and real. no matter how good human beings try to be, they are humans, and there will always be corruption, and ethical greys, and inevitably questionable things will be done in the name of the greater good.
standard for modern television. not standard for the universe of star trek, in which human beings are NOT supposed to do things like this. i guess to an outsider that seems insignificant, but watch 7 seasons of picard walking the straight and narrow on TNG and you'll understand why it matters.
and i find it far, far better than B5.
i'm not entirely sure that they're controversial, but if they are, i think that's definitely good. "comfort the disturbed, disturb the comfortable," right? the eddington quote is particularly poignant because it points out how coercive the federation is. it's an impressive piece of writing that belongs right there alongside trevelyan's comments to bond in goldeneye, speaking in a very meta way about the franchise as a whole.
most of all they're great episodes because they feel honest and real. no matter how good human beings try to be, they are humans, and there will always be corruption, and ethical greys, and inevitably questionable things will be done in the name of the greater good.
standard for modern television. not standard for the universe of star trek, in which human beings are NOT supposed to do things like this. i guess to an outsider that seems insignificant, but watch 7 seasons of picard walking the straight and narrow on TNG and you'll understand why it matters.
and i find it far, far better than B5.
King of the Potato People
Member
And a few episodes later, Quark got breasts.
Zombie James
Banned
In the Pale Moonlight is one of my all-time favourite Trek episodes. Star Trek really needed more shades of grey and that's where DS9 really delivered.
Because humans are the best, duh.
It's fine that you don't believe it's possible that Roddenberry's vision of a Federation could happen without a secret police, but I don't think that level of realism is necessary in a show whose original premise was an optimistic future. I do appreciate what DS9 was doing, and that they were questioning that vision, but that could have been accomplished without stepping on the past.
Because humans are the best, duh.
It's fine that you don't believe it's possible that Roddenberry's vision of a Federation could happen without a secret police, but I don't think that level of realism is necessary in a show whose original premise was an optimistic future. I do appreciate what DS9 was doing, and that they were questioning that vision, but that could have been accomplished without stepping on the past.
In The Original Series women had to wear skirts and weren't allowed to be Starfleet Captains. I don't think a black ops agency is any worse than that.
Are we having this discussion based on the fiction of the show, or the production restraints imposed by the era in which they were made? It's two very different discussions.
Captain Tuttle
Member
In the pilot of TNG there's some dude wearing a skirt on the Enterprise.
Anyway, great OP Mama R, DS9 is by far the best Trek.
Excellent post. Thank you for articulating why DS9 is the best series.
Though I have to say, while TNG did usually portray the Feds as having the moral high ground in most cases, it used other species to explore real-life human follies. The Federation is Roddenberry's human ideal, but he still says we're far from perfect through allegory.
Deep Space Nine might have appeared to be different from the others because of its rare depiction of open warfare, but the Federation has never been depicted as absolutely perfect throughout the history of Star Trek. One example from TNG comes to mind: Data creates offspring and the Feds want to take her, failing to recognize his rights once more. Or how about Picard being ordered to commit genocide of the Borg if the opportunity were to arise? Nothing as insidious or inward-looking as Section 13, though. Or the presidential coup d'etat (DS9: Homefront).
The point is that DS9 did not ravage the concept of Star Trek, it just stepped back from using other species as a human allegory and focused on the faults of the Federation itself. The utopia isn't such unless it's protected from agents that would undermine core values, like any modern human democracy. It's just a spin on Roddenberry's morality plays.
Though I have to say, while TNG did usually portray the Feds as having the moral high ground in most cases, it used other species to explore real-life human follies. The Federation is Roddenberry's human ideal, but he still says we're far from perfect through allegory.
Deep Space Nine might have appeared to be different from the others because of its rare depiction of open warfare, but the Federation has never been depicted as absolutely perfect throughout the history of Star Trek. One example from TNG comes to mind: Data creates offspring and the Feds want to take her, failing to recognize his rights once more. Or how about Picard being ordered to commit genocide of the Borg if the opportunity were to arise? Nothing as insidious or inward-looking as Section 13, though. Or the presidential coup d'etat (DS9: Homefront).
The point is that DS9 did not ravage the concept of Star Trek, it just stepped back from using other species as a human allegory and focused on the faults of the Federation itself. The utopia isn't such unless it's protected from agents that would undermine core values, like any modern human democracy. It's just a spin on Roddenberry's morality plays.
XANDER CAGE
Member
This is the eye-rollingest eye-rolly dialog to come out of DS9, and that's saying something. It's like they borrowed Lucas' ham gloves.
The best part about "Pale" is the interaction between Sisko and Garak. In Garak we have a solidly third string character whose story had been so well written and acted. Sisko never comes out and asks Garak to
the Romulan officer, but Sisko, Garak and the audience all know exactly what is going to happen. That is some great stuff there.
assassinate
You're...talking about the guys that walk around in head-to-toe bondage gear? I won't even get into Extreme Measures, in which Section 31 might as well have been led by Shredder. Or possibly Galvatron.Mama Robotnik said:
Lulz, get over yourself! This wasn't even a novel idea on DS9 by then--between the crushing of the Maquis, the Sisko/Eddington episodes, the coup plotters in Homefront/Paradise Lost, and nearly every appearance by Admiral (Bitchface) Nechayev, the bad-apples-in-the-Federation thing was already well-beaten.Mama Robotnik said:
Anyway, Sisko and the gang are still the good guys (although they did the wrong thing for the right reasons), Section 31 end up being just another set of bad guys, and the Federation is still the least worst option. All of which continued to the end of the series.
So what did Inquisition and ItPM change, exactly? Sure, they retconned one of the worst conceits of Roddenberry Trek, but they replaced it with something even more poorly thought-out.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I loved both of those episodes.
The post-ism world of the original series never registered with me, though I was still a fan of the show. It was once the creators started flirting with the Federation not always having the best interests of others in mind that I started liking it a lot more. I guess that started happening right around the time that Gene Roddenberry died. But things got much more interesting when Ron Moore started to influence DS9. I ignored that show for almost its entire run, and then came back to it when it started re-airing on cable around 2004. Once they hit their stride past the first couple of seasons it really became my favorite of all the Treks.
Also, DS9 had a lot of great actors. TNG had the great Patrick Stewart, but DS9 had a hell of ensemble cast, including Colm Meaney, who was one of the best actors in TNG.
The post-ism world of the original series never registered with me, though I was still a fan of the show. It was once the creators started flirting with the Federation not always having the best interests of others in mind that I started liking it a lot more. I guess that started happening right around the time that Gene Roddenberry died. But things got much more interesting when Ron Moore started to influence DS9. I ignored that show for almost its entire run, and then came back to it when it started re-airing on cable around 2004. Once they hit their stride past the first couple of seasons it really became my favorite of all the Treks.
Also, DS9 had a lot of great actors. TNG had the great Patrick Stewart, but DS9 had a hell of ensemble cast, including Colm Meaney, who was one of the best actors in TNG.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Well The Thin Red Line IS short a couple lesbians.
Edit: Which is to say that you shouldn't fear the quoting of a tag containing truth.
Joel Was Right
Gold Member
What was the last controversial episode of (not just Star Trek) but sci-fi franchise that riled up many of its fans? In the episode Occupation of BSG, main characters were involved in waging a suicide bomber campaign against the Cylons when New Caprica was invaded. BSG forums lit up triggering Aaron Douglas who played Chief Tyrol had to sign up and explain the episode and media articles were written about it in the following days and weeks. For example, lol
Does Battlestar: Galactica support the Iraqi insurgency? - Slate Magazine
I remember it well because I was an active lurker on those forums. It was intense considering the connotations of what happened in the episode
Does Battlestar: Galactica support the Iraqi insurgency? - Slate Magazine
I remember it well because I was an active lurker on those forums. It was intense considering the connotations of what happened in the episode
A controversial episode might be the one where they visited the planet of all-black people and the natives were portrayed as near savages who had to steal Tasha Yar to heighten their prestige.
The two episodes mentioned in the original posting are not controversial at all, but rather dark in tone.
The two episodes mentioned in the original posting are not controversial at all, but rather dark in tone.
Ah this is so true. Roddenberry could certainly write a dark tale if he wanted.
oh god, that show...
The "no female Captains" thing wasn't a production restraint imposed by the era. It was entirely voluntary on the part of the writers.
They said that this woman was basically the equal of Jim Kirk through the Academy, but then Starfleet gave Kirk a ship and handed her a frying pan, because she didn't have a penis. (And this unfair treatment turned her into a villian.)
The writers did this to make a statement about how stupid and wrong it was for upper management to not give women the same chances for advancement as they gave (and still do give) to men.
DS9 gave the Federation a black ops agency to make a statement about how wrong it was to perform black ops, and some of the hardcore Trekkies complained about how it undermined Roddenberry's vision of having a perfect Federation that is never wrong and leads by example.
Man, I am so happy that I've managed to forget all of Voyager.
Unless this is a running joke and none of that stuff happened, I really can't tell.
Trent Strong
Banned
Tuvok and Neelix getting melded into a single person in a transporter accident is no more ridiculous than a transporter accident causing two Rikers in next generation.
I just read the synopsis, and, yeah, that's pretty lousy. They seriously said, "Let's not cure this disease so that Race A will go extinct and Race B will take over?"
I mean, the episodes listed in the OP were at least in a moral gray area: they seem pretty awesome. But allowing an entire species to go extinct due to a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution? That's just... lame.
The Tuvix episode of Voyager is probably the most controversial for me, but yes DS9 was an amazing show and Pale Moonlight is one of its most entertaining hours.
Still though, they merge Tuvok and Neelix and create a better character than either had been and ever became...then outright murder him so Janeway can have her buddy back.
They watch a good man, a friend plead for his life and still execute him. Fuck you Janeway!
Still though, they merge Tuvok and Neelix and create a better character than either had been and ever became...then outright murder him so Janeway can have her buddy back.
They watch a good man, a friend plead for his life and still execute him. Fuck you Janeway!
BigJonsson
Member
ITS A FAAAAAAKE!
Best DS9 episode
Best DS9 episode
Escape Goat
Member
I dont think it was that cut and dry. I'm no fan of Janeway but she has some strange new person telling her that both Tuvok and Neelix are consenting. Theres no way for her to validate that claim.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I thought that this thread would be about Threshold. I suppose that it was longer than 14 years ago.
Joel Was Right
Gold Member
This episode features Star Trek's first same-sex kiss and is one of the most controversial episodes in the show's history. According to Ronald D. Moore, "some felt betrayed, didn't want to see this in their homes. An affiliate down south cut the kiss from their broadcast." Similarly, René Echevarria says, "my mother was absolutely scandalized by the episode. Shocked and dismayed. She told me 'I can't believe you did that. There should have been a parental guidance warning'." Steve Oster says that a man called the show and complained, "you're ruining my kids by making them watch two women kiss like that." Much of the public response mirrored that of the famous Kirk-Uhura kiss. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
There is a story regarding the man complaining about his kids seeing the kiss: It was a production assistant who took the call. After hearing the man's complaint, the PA asked if the man would've been okay with his kids seeing one woman shoot the other. When the man said he would be okay with that, the PA said "You should reconsider who's messing up your kids". (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
There is a story regarding the man complaining about his kids seeing the kiss: It was a production assistant who took the call. After hearing the man's complaint, the PA asked if the man would've been okay with his kids seeing one woman shoot the other. When the man said he would be okay with that, the PA said "You should reconsider who's messing up your kids". (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)
I said damn
As it turns out, Janet Lester was just insane since the first Trek captain ever seen on screen was a black woman, and WAS in the TOS era. She was the captain in Trek IV that first encountered the whale probe. Which took place about 15 years after that ended, meaning the Saratoga captain rose almost as fast as Kirk did.
Not to mention Enterprise solidly has female captains, shooting that down even more.
Of course, the REAL reason is that the episode was the final episode, continuity checkers probably didn't care, Roddenberry was probably drinking himself to oblivion. Sexism was the dramatic theme and so it went. No one really figured 40 years later they'd be using it as a guide for Starfleet gender roles.
B5 has a better, more coherent, and mostly better paced arc (DS9 goes from hot to cold and back again a lot because of a larger number of one-offs while B5 is pretty much all arc progression from early s2 to late s4), DS9 has better production values and generally better acting.
Keep in mind that with DS9 they were making it up as it went along, while B5 was planned (though at least two things fundamentally and drastically changed the planned arc, the new version was also planned out pretty heavily).
As for controversial modern trek, Tuvix should have been it but it mostly gets overlooked or brushed off. Where the two episodes mentioned fundamentally alter the federation to something more realistic (that Roddenberry would have despised) and overreached by retconning the entire universe, Tuvix struck right at the central pillar of Trek: The wise, brave, and almost always right Captain. Janeway did nothing less than murder a crewman in that episode.
Winnie the Pimp
Member
DS9 is one of my favorite Sci-Fi shows..
currently watching B5 for the first time and yeah there ARE a lot of similarities but it's still enjoyable.
My absolute favorite still is TNG though... the only other show that comes close to that is FarScape, underrated as well, it is on the COMPLETE other end of the spectrum, dirty, gritty and wild, but SO awesome it will blow your mind if you give it a chance!
currently watching B5 for the first time and yeah there ARE a lot of similarities but it's still enjoyable.
My absolute favorite still is TNG though... the only other show that comes close to that is FarScape, underrated as well, it is on the COMPLETE other end of the spectrum, dirty, gritty and wild, but SO awesome it will blow your mind if you give it a chance!
Sephiroth503
Member
I'm in the exact same boat. I'm 22 now so was a bit too young to understand DS9 when it first came out. I've purchased all the Seasons over the last few months and being that bit older I can now appreciate much more about the show. It really is fantastic and my new favourite Trek series.
Great episodes both of them, not sure if controversial tho. In the world of Start Trek they might have been since in the previous ST shows the Federation and humans have been always almost perfect. I loved how DS9 took darker route. It still pales with B5 but when ever something "shocking" happened in Babylon it didn't have the same impact as in DS9. Babylon 5 was new show there were no rules for it but every time DS9 did something that the fans weren't used to it caused commotion among them "you can't do that in a Star Trek", "This isn't what Gene had in his mind" and so on. Back on the point, both great episodes and In the Pale Moonlight is probably my all time favorite Trek epsidoe.
ErasureAcer
Banned
The episode is largely hated on but I liked TNG pushing the envelope in The Outcast. Where an androgynous species isn't allowed to be sexual whatsoever to anyone who shows sexual identity as a male or female.
The opposite of this episode and one I didn't care for in TNG would be The Host. Where Beverly falls in love with a trill but when The Host, a male, dies and the symbiant ends up in a woman...she wants nothing to do with her. Real classy there Bev.
The opposite of this episode and one I didn't care for in TNG would be The Host. Where Beverly falls in love with a trill but when The Host, a male, dies and the symbiant ends up in a woman...she wants nothing to do with her. Real classy there Bev.
JasonUresti
Member
Tuvix being murdered by the crew was pretty terrible.
That the man forgave them and understood why they were killing him made it even more apparent that they were murdering a kind and caring individual.
The Visitor is the best DS9 episode. It was a DS9 episode not trying to be B5-lite, and no overdone story to be ruined by absurd plot devices at the climax.
Just a good, well written story that most everyone can relate to in some form, handled with care and warmth, and all wonderfully acted.
That the man forgave them and understood why they were killing him made it even more apparent that they were murdering a kind and caring individual.
The Visitor is the best DS9 episode. It was a DS9 episode not trying to be B5-lite, and no overdone story to be ruined by absurd plot devices at the climax.
Just a good, well written story that most everyone can relate to in some form, handled with care and warmth, and all wonderfully acted.
I actually came to this thread expecting this would be about that episode. Never liked the episode but I could see how it would have been considered controversial back in the days.
Joel Was Right
Gold Member
Was what Janeway did with Tuvix any worst than this?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode)
Trent Strong
Banned
So being a heterosexual isn't classy?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Agreed. I wonder what B5 would have been like if they had a larger budget. Listening to the DVD commentary, it's amazing how many configurations they could arrange their modular set in order to simulate multiple areas cheaply.
vagabondarts
Member
Thanks to your post, I just watched both episodes on netflix.
I liked them so much, I'll be going back to watch all of DS9, which I had previously been disinterested in.
P.S. I laughed so hard at:
I liked them so much, I'll be going back to watch all of DS9, which I had previously been disinterested in.
P.S. I laughed so hard at:
IT'S A FAAAAAAAAAKKKE
The two Rikers wasn't that crazy, considering how transporters are supposed to work.
They convert matter into energy, and use the energy to carry information about the exact position and movement of every atom in your body (impossible according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, but Trek scientists invented Heisenberg compensators). As long as the info is intact, transporter operators can add raw energy to the mix to make up for lost energy, and convert the energy/info back into matter.
In the two Riker episode, the transporter operator accidentally tried to re-build Riker in two places at once, and didn't have enough material, but he thought he was experiencing massive energy loss, so he just poured in more than 100% extra energy until he managed to make two Rikers using one recipe.
Tuvix was silly because when you mash atoms together you don't get furry Vulcans with amnesia, you get inhuman blobs that mercifully die, or maybe atomic explosions. But I guess the impossibility compensators took care of that. Would've been nice for the Science Officer if those were working in Star Trek The Motion Picture.
A good comparison to Tuvix would be the TOS episode where the transporter split Kirk into Good Kirk and Evil Kirk. It's nice to know that we all have good atoms and evil atoms, and future science will be able to tell the difference, and we need the right balance of the two otherwise we'll end up as either pussies or assholes.
Just came in here to post this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNPeNEvMN4
IMO a very good scene in both acting and writing. It shows what Star Trek *should* (in my humblest opinion) be about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNPeNEvMN4
IMO a very good scene in both acting and writing. It shows what Star Trek *should* (in my humblest opinion) be about.
Trent Strong
Banned
Star Trek is full of stuff that's absurd though. This a show where nearly every intelligent species in the galaxy looks nearly identical to humans except for a few brow ridges or pointy ears. The Tuvix stuff is just one more ridiculous thing in a sea of ridiculosity. I thought the Tuvix episode was one of the best Voyager episodes.
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