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[TLZ]

i am sorry

i felt like i had to speak up and there is nowhere else to post

There isn't OT for now for a reason.

 

[conman]

Yeah. I'll echo this.

Mod team needs to clamp down on it or else the silent GamerGaters will slowly normalize their views here causing what made this community good to disappear.

From everything I’ve seen, it’s too late. The asylum inmates have already taken over the asylum. If I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

GAF was already riding a fine line. It miraculously had maintained a delicate balance for most of its run. But the GGers and their ilk have now overrun the walls. Thankfully the internet is a big place and the reasonable and rational longtime former GAFfers will reconnect elsewhere. It was a gloriously long run, folks. I’ve connected with great people, great games, and great ideas over the years here.

While I’m pissed about the way the site’s founder has reacted to accusations of sexual misconduct, I’m even more pissed by the way (non-banned) GAF has responded, and by implication, the remaining mods. Clearly the site I’ve come to love/hate over the past decade-plus is now just simply the site I hate.

Again, if I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

I’ll see my comrades elsewhere.

Peace.

 

[TumblingHippo]

Nothing against talking about those in the Off-Topic.
But it gets tiring when so many gaming discussions get derailed. One moment people are talking about gameplay. And the next moment someone derails the thread asking why every Assassins Creed protagonist needs to be cisgendered.
Really? You think that will help LGBT issues?

LGBT issues in gaming are ON topic.

 

[Poltergust]

Modbot please for the love of God close these off topic threads.

This is the GAMING discussion forum.

Actually, threads about the site itself have always been posted in this section of the site.

 

[x24hrs2livex]

I always when that arguement is put forth so I can ask "what about The Roots?""

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFWPCaUOxYQ

See the thing is, is I could point to a bunch of instances in rap music where vocals are done over live instruments. Or bring up The Roots being Jimmy Fallon's house band. But I mean crackheads gonna be crackheads.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

I guess I would ask -- why should someone be banned for a bad argument? If someone is being lazily contrarian, it should be rather trivial to point out the flaws in their position. Instead, the first instinct of the mods was to ban first and ask questions later. I found it to be incredibly intimidating and antithetical to the very concept of a "discussion" board.

Almost nobody was banned for lazy arguments, just for being openly antagonistic.

Lazily contrarian was more in reference to dog piles.

 

[ckaneo]

Discussion was being had. People who were articulating why her arguments weren't sound didn't get banned. You are not banned for disagreeing with someone. You get banned for dismissing arguments and putting down people in threads centered around that person's arguments.

You see it more black and white than I do.

If dismissing arguments and putting people down were the reasons people were being banned, we wouldnt have a forum.That's overmoderation to me.

Let's be real, if someone made a post like that about someone like Trump do you think the mods would have banned them? No.

Again, it's hard to argue on other people's behalf on threads I wasnt in, but that post wasnt ban worthy in my opinion. Well it was ban worthy, but only cause of the environment created here. It shouldnt be ban worthy.

 

[Jeels]

From everything I’ve seen, it’s too late. The asylum inmates have already taken over the asylum. If I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

GAF was already riding a fine line. It miraculously had maintained a delicate balance for most of its run. But the GGers and their ilk have now overrun the walls. Thankfully the internet is a big place and the reasonable and rational longtime former GAFfers will reconnect elsewhere. It was a gloriously long run, folks. I’ve connected with great people, great games, and great ideas over the years here.

While I’m pissed about the way the site’s founder has reacted to accusations of sexual misconduct, I’m even more pissed by the way (non-banned) GAF has responded, and by implication, the remaining mods. Clearly the site I’ve come to love/hate over the past decade-plus is now just simply the site I hate.

Again, if I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

I’ll see my comrades elsewhere.

Peace.

Ya this is what scares me most. With the new policy (which I can't think of a reason for) the floodgates have opened so to speak. Gamergate won and they took the biggest forum down with them...

 

[Aurongel]

It's seriously ironic that the behavior that NeoGAF fostered for years is what ended up splitting up the forum. It's really bizarre. Up until now I did not know so many people hated NeoGAF. I knew there were haters, but I just chalked that up to people upset at their banning or people who were never verified. It wasn't until yesterday that I truly evaluated what NeoGAF was like.

There are a lot of volatile discussions that appear in Off-Topic, like sexual harassment harassment or police brutality. There was a hivemind that seemed to always condemn the alleged perpetrator, and I truly and honestly participated in the hivemind, albeit in my head. "There's no way he would have died if he were white." "That guy who assaulted her is scum." Those are just some examples of ideas that came to my head when I read the many, many news articles. And in those threads, it seemed like most people agreed. If you questioned anything you'd be hounded until you left the thread. At that time even I thought, "Come on, don't be obtuse" more than once. I guess I was just a part of GAF's hivemind. Sometimes those people who questioned would be banned, further validating my thoughts.

But now, the owner of the site was accused of sexual harassment. And I'm shocked at how differently his story is turning out. You have half of the forum condemning him like they would any other man who did what he was accused of doing. And you have the other half brushing off the concerns of the former half. And its the former half getting banned. A complete reversal of what I had been conditioned to believe on NeoGAF.

NeoGAF influenced me in the many years I have been here. Especially during election time, I was influenced to see things in black and white. If you supported Trump, you supported racism, bigotry, sexism, and all those other things. You couldn't be a decent person and support Trump. There were some things I would bend on yet would be too afraid to voice my opinion, like the whole Link being a girl thing mentioned above. I guess this taught me that every situation is different and we must be prepared to take a nuanced approach to it as well as be a little more receptive to different opinions.

It kinda sucks that what made me realize that is something that exposes the ultimate hypocrisy of NeoGAF. Sorry if I came off as rambling. So many thoughts are in my head right now that it's a little difficult to piece them together in a coherent post. Just wanted to air out my thoughts.

More than anything, it was the gradual erosion of the standards of discourse that did it in. In its final days, the OT let so much shit fly in terms of the constant Trump tweet threads and general approvals of drive by posts and emotional appeals.

Acting on pure emotion and losing sight of evidence based reasoning and civil discourse was what we (rightfully) criticized other sites of.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that but what I do know for sure is that the current regime (EL especially) don't seem to have a good grasp on how to actually recapture that level of discourse and civility.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

But your example was bad and you didn't come close to proving your point, which is why you have pivoted to a different point. People are allowed to challenge statements and ask people to defend their views. It's the entire point of a discussion forum.

My example was only bad, because the example post I used ended up being phony, the guy kind of screwed me in that regard ...

Subject: "I got banned for not liking rap music"

-"You deserve it"

-"Nice try asshole, rap music is associated with black culture, thus you're a racist"

-"Yeah you suck"

yaddy yaddy yadda....

...Me: "This is why OT sucked, you guys just piled on the guy, making assumptions... hive mind etc."

...You: "Why did you get banned, what did you say about rap music anyway?"

...Him: "I actually said 'rap music rapes my ears'"

..Me: "Oh, yeah the word 'rape' isn't taken lightly around here, I see why you got banned now, had nothing to do with 'rap music'"

...You: "Yeah, your example sucked, because I asked the guy why he got banned and got to the bottom of it"


...Me: "Okay"

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

Modbot please for the love of God close these off topic threads.

This is the GAMING discussion forum.

It's about ethics in video game forums.

 

[Trey]

Nothing against talking about those in the Off-Topic.
But it gets tiring when so many gaming discussions get derailed. One moment people are talking about gameplay. And the next moment someone derails the thread asking why every Assassins Creed protagonist needs to be cisgendered.
Really? You think that will help LGBT issues?

or, don't discuss that particular topic with that particular person? do you lose you mind when people suggest that a game take place in a certain setting, or when they criticize the design of a character?

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

You only stay on this forum if you are ok with sexual assault. Have fun making ad revenue for this guy, spineless nerds.

Ironic considering your avatar.

A victim of sexual assault that fell in love with her rapist.

You okay with that?

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

or, don't discuss that particular topic with that particular person? do you lose you mind when people suggest that a game take place in a certain setting, or when they criticize the design of a character?

F'real you don't have to engage in every topic of discussion within threads.

 

[OptionalObjectives]

sure they respect lgbt and racial minorities, just don't talk about respecting them openly anymore.

Yep. Evilore's statement, and even more the follow-up on the plans for off-topic put under ModBot is absolutely pathetic. Evilore just handed GAF over to the people who have always hated it the most, the Kotaku-in-Action types rooting for this implosion from the sidelines. And the owner of the fucking site just handed them the perfect policy.

Apparently, the vibe of this place as one of the only gaming forums where the politics of games and their social importance is something to be flushed down the toilet. What a waste.

 

[Bounceounce]

As if all minorities in this forum (such as myself) were on the same page, or that the poison that affected this community was (purely) some heart-filled attempt to stave off bigotry.

The toxicity infected everyone, the idea that it only harmed conservatives/alt-righters is ridiculous.

Varying levels of liberals, leftists, socialists, communists, whatever you want to call it, were in the crosshairs of the rabid fear mongering/purity hunting that dopamine fiend posters set on folks, the level of eggshell walking people deemed necessary is disgusting.

People weren't rational (and on some levels weren't consistent), it's unreal how detached the community was from the concept of nuance and human flaws.

I can't believe that any of those folks were as perfect or uncompromised as they pretended to be (at all points in their life).

There's no issue with the community leaning left or fostering an environment hospitable to minorities/other persecuted groups.

The issue came when the site seemed solely oriented around becoming a hugbox for fragile individuals who would go overboard at every offense and take others not equally bent out of shape or expressing whatever emotion they deemed necessary down with it.

And to the right-leaning folks, please stop pretending like the forum is in anyway far-left and not more towards the center, or at least with varying political perspectives.

The climate here went at anyone and everyone.

 

[Novoitus]

From everything I’ve seen, it’s too late. The asylum inmates have already taken over the asylum. If I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

GAF was already riding a fine line. It miraculously had maintained a delicate balance for most of its run. But the GGers and their ilk have now overrun the walls. Thankfully the internet is a big place and the reasonable and rational longtime former GAFfers will reconnect elsewhere. It was a gloriously long run, folks. I’ve connected with great people, great games, and great ideas over the years here.

While I’m pissed about the way the site’s founder has reacted to accusations of sexual misconduct, I’m even more pissed by the way (non-banned) GAF has responded, and by implication, the remaining mods. Clearly the site I’ve come to love/hate over the past decade-plus is now just simply the site I hate.

Again, if I weren’t so pissed, I’d be heartbroken.

I’ll see my comrades elsewhere.

Peace.

If the fine line was "MY OPINION OR NOTHING" then yes, it was riding a fine line. This site in OT has consistently been an echo chamber. There was no actual discussions allowed. No, that doesn't mean LGBT or minority rights discussions have two sides. They don't. Respect LGBT people and their right to exist, to marry, to be equal to everyone else. Respect minorities rights to not be systematically targeted by law enforcement and murdered.

But when it comes to things that can actually have differing opinons - fuck off with your "MINE OR NOTHING" approach. We will never gain any traction with that. We will never progress by banning and silencing people we don't agree with. If you're in a group that is constantly agreeing with one another, seek opinions from a different group and compare.

 

[Link]

Ya this is what scares me most. With the new policy (which I can't think of a reason for) the floodgates have opened so to speak. Gamergate won and they took the biggest forum down with them...

This is really what is bothering me the most as well.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

Ya this is what scares me most. With the new policy (which I can't think of a reason for) the floodgates have opened so to speak. Gamergate won and they took the biggest forum down with them...

Gamer gate didn’t win anything. Stop giving them credit.

 

[Neece]

Gamer gate didn’t win anything. Stop giving them credit.

They sure are celebrating this as a victory.

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

If the fine line was "MY OPINION OR NOTHING" then yes, it was riding a fine line. This site in OT has consistently been an echo chamber. There was no actual discussions allowed. No, that doesn't mean LGBT or minority rights discussions have two sides. They don't. Respect LGBT people and their right to exist, to marry, to be equal to everyone else. Respect minorities rights to not be systematically targeted by law enforcement and murdered.

But when it comes to things that can actually have differing opinons - fuck off with your "MINE OR NOTHING" approach. We will never gain any traction with that. We will never progress by banning and silencing people we don't agree with. If you're in a group that is constantly agreeing with one another, seek opinions from a different group and compare.

I was in OT multiple hours every day, this is still absurd. There were plenty of people who were overly vicious in their condemnation of differing views, sure. But it's not like there weren't people posting multiple opinions in every thread.

GAF was never a hive mind.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

They sure are celebrating this as a victory.

On this forum too I bet lol

 

[Trey]

They sure are celebrating this as a victory.

they are beggars: they'll take whatever they can get.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

Nothing against talking about those in the Off-Topic.
But it gets tiring when so many gaming discussions get derailed. One moment people are talking about gameplay. And the next moment someone derails the thread asking why every Assassins Creed protagonist needs to be cisgendered.
Really? You think that will help LGBT issues?

Yeah, the hyper political environment made it so that every discussion devolved into questions over representation, sexism, etc. But if you had the temerity to suggest that perhaps Nathan Drake's white privilege was not the most important thing about Uncharted 4 -- well, that's racist and worthy of a ban.

 

[Aurongel]

Acting like Gamergate won anything when we have proof that society is moving beyond them is a hilarious assertion. They represent a shrinking minority of social conservatives who harbor views that we are rapidly moving past:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewr...rriage-and-acceptance-of-homosexuality/?amp=1

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If dismissing arguments and putting people down were the reasons people were being banned, we wouldnt have a forum.That's overmoderation to me.

Let's be real, if someone made a post like that about someone like Trump do you think the mods would have banned them? No.

Again, it's hard to argue on other people's behalf on threads I wasnt in, but that post wasnt ban worthy in my opinion. Well it was ban worthy, but only cause of the environment created here. It shouldnt be ban worthy.

Trump is an awful person whose views deserve scorn and disgust. But hey, Trump is, to you, equivalent to someone saying women deserve better respect in the gaming industry.

You see this as black and white. You don't understand context. You believe bad views deserve to be listened to.

 

[Jeels]

they are beggars: they'll take whatever they can get.

You're making a fool of yourself. Look around you.

Instead of just apologizing and trying to make amends a policy was implemented that screwed over the most vulnerable and let the ones on the sidelines cheering the demise of the site get what they want.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

They sure are celebrating this as a victory.

They could take a tweet as a victory if they could. It’s a joke of a movement. They aren’t organized and are not living in a good reality.

 

[Novoitus]

I was in OT multiple hours every day, this is still absurd. There were plenty of people who were overly vicious in their condemnation of differing views, sure. But it's not like there weren't people posting multiple opinions in every thread.

GAF was never a hive mind.

It absolutely was man. People get piled on for posing a different opinion in a thread. GAF was always a hivemind. There was a popular consensus, a popular way to think about things and if you veered from that way you got shamed by multiple people. I've seen this so many times here and I've only been here for like 4 years.

Yes, there were people who had different views, but if you had a different view it seemed like the communities mission to instantly discredit you and shame you for it.

 

[AlteredBeast]

This is really what is bothering me the most as well.

Ditto.

I rarely participated in political threads, but I read damn near all of them.

Like many, many others have said: NeoGAF's main selling point has always been its strong moderation. The discussions that flourished on GAF would never go anywhere on 99% of message boards regardless of their "main" topics.

There were definitely unjustified bans, no doubt. Some of our best posters were forced out due to somewhat lame reasons, but overall the strength was in not letting people shitpost, spread bigoted ideals, or bully.

If you neuter modding and restrict actual conversation on off-topic subject material,then GAF truly will be dead for me.

Please don't make that mistake.

 

[ckaneo]

Trump is an awful person whose views deserve scorn and disgust. But hey, Trump is, to you, equivalent to someone saying women deserve better respect in the gaming industry.

You see this as black and white. You don't understand context. You believe bad views deserve to be listened to.

It's funny because I'm not the one that sees's it as black and white, you are.

You literally just said bad views as if you have the individual power to determine what is bad and what is good.

My point about Trump was to show that really it wasnt about what the poster asked. It was about who he directed it towards. In other words the validity of the question was never actually examined and discussed. It was dismissed and the poster was banned

 

[Trey]

You're making a fool of yourself. Look around you.

Instead of just apologizing and trying to make amends a policy was implemented that screwed over the most vulnerable and let the ones on the sidelines cheering the demise of the site get what they want.

GAF burning in effigy is not a victory any GG faithful can claim, and any who latch on to such a belief portray their movement as opportunistic leaching with no inherent direction nor actionable cause. They are petty con artists thrusting inarticulately in any direction that will patronize them.

 

[Link]

Acting like Gamergate won anything when we have proof that society is moving beyond them is a hilarious assertion. They represent a shrinking minority of social conservatives who harbor views that we are rapidly moving past:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.pewr...rriage-and-acceptance-of-homosexuality/?amp=1

Meanwhile, Donald Trump is president and Republicans control every branch of government despite drifting further and further right.

Sorry if I don't share your optimism thanks to polls. If anything, what's going on right now on this forum parallels the fact that people hide their shitty views until they feel it safe to reveal them.

 

[ckaneo]

i still dont know what gamergate is

 

[metalslimer]

Man it sure is funny to read the posts so tired of everythijg being political when this is literally minorities lives 24/7.

It's sad, that while there was a problem with the kneejwrk reactions, this was probably one of the safest forums to discuss things for minorities withoit being called a nigger/faggot/etc. Shame some people including evillore seen so willing to destroy that part

 

[Monkeyball]

Yeah.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

You believe bad views deserve to be listened to.

I do believe bad views deserve to be listened to.

It's how you determine what the correct views are.

 

[Daweex]

Dont leave yet.

How does it make sense to always believe the victim? What if I accuse you of something right now and everyone believes me?

>GAF owner is accused of sexual harrassment
>''w-wait for the evidence you guys!!!''

top kek, stop acting like a fucking tool man

 

[Stealthcobra]

I was banned for six months for shitting on rap. Yep, not any race or gender or sexual orientation, but a music genre.

I made a negative comment about turn based combat and was banned 2 weeks.

 

[AlteredBeast]

Meanwhile, Donald Trump is president and Republicans control every branch of government despite drifting further and further right.

Sorry if I don't share your optimism thanks to polls. If anything, what's going on right now on this forum parallels the fact that people hide their shitty views until they feel it safe to reveal them.

Exactly. People won't reveal their true selves until nobody is watching, like at the ballot box.

Coupled with the fact that young, hyper-liberal scenesters don't actually fucking vote, means that even if the Dems miraculously take back the house, I still have no hope at all for them winning back a majority of governorships, senate, or the presidency. But hey, those polls, right?

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

i still dont now what gamergate is

Me neither, I was not around during that debacle, was it like 3-4 years ago?

I always thought "Gamergate" was a positive term, just after this debacle on the weekend, I learned that GAF actually FOUGHT "gamergaters' back in the day and won, like D-Day, battle of alamo or something! #neverforget

 

[torre_avenue]

The accusations, assumptions and pile on in just matter of seconds...

Congratulations, this is the very reasons this forums went to shits...

No matter what the dude's opinion of rap music, it shouldn't be a bannable fucking offense.

No one should fucking feel slighted enough from a stranger online that doesn't like rap music, to shit on them...let alone get them silenced (banned)

That's the point he's trying to make.

I said it rapes my ears.

.

If I said reading your posts rapes my eyes, would I be banned?

 

[SuperDowns]

There isn't OT for now for a reason.

Take more advantage of polite discourse, asshole. He is trying to be nice, how miserable is your life that you act like you have nothing to contribute to humanity?

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

You don't know fiction versus reality? Goddamn this place will just have idiots like you left.

Have fun guys!

I guess you better let Anita Sarkessian know that none of that feminist shit matters because games are all just fictional. Problem solved!

 

[riskVSreward]

It absolutely was man. People get piled on for posing a different opinion in a thread. GAF was always a hivemind. There was a popular consensus, a popular way to think about things and if you veered from that way you got shamed by multiple people. I've seen this so many times here and I've only been here for like 4 years.

Yes, there were people who had different views, but if you had a different view it seemed like the communities mission to instantly discredit you and shame you for it.

It's exactly what happened. Gaf got more and more insular, more hostile towards developers and popular personalities, and conversely more and more HATED by the gaming community. Oh, NOT ALL of the gaming community, not all, just a lot. Like more than 50%. And there's good reason to believe it was all engineered by certain mods and users who apparently had an agenda.

If you guys didn't just label dissent with bad buzzwords and completely discredit them, you might actually acquire more information. You can be confident in making up your own decisions with the acquisition of information. You can decide if it's credible or not for yourself, and no one should be driven out for having civil discourse. Do you even realize how many awesome posters have been driven out over the years? There's way too many to list.

 

[RinsFury]

I hope that GAF would never normalize GG bigotry, the forum has never been about providing a platform for that. We just need to ride out the storm for a few days and the trolls will move on to their next target, with the forum hopefully remaining under the auspices of a stringent moderation system.

 

[WhiskeyKnight]

I made a negative comment about turn based combat and was banned 2 weeks.

To be fair, as a member of the real time combat community that comment was pretty offensive.

 

[Novoitus]

Me neither, I was not around during that debacle, was it like 3-4 years ago?

I always thought "Gamergate" was a positive term, just after this debacle on the weekend, I learned that GAF actually FOUGHT "gamergaters' back in the day and won, like D-Day, battle of alamo or something! #neverforget

GAF didn't do anything. This community was always so full of itself.

GamerGate started with Zoey Quinn's salty ex-boyfriend saying that she slept with reviewers to get favorable reviews for her game Depression Quest.

 

[ckaneo]

>GAF owner is accused of sexual harrassment
>''w-wait for the evidence you guys!!!''

top kek, stop acting like a fucking tool man

All I said is that the "victim" shouldnt always be believed. That's a ridiculous claim and how that's controversial is beyond me.

That doesnt mean Evilore didnt do it. The waypoint article paints a pretty clear picture

 

[metalslimer]

I hope that GAF would never normalize GG bigotry, the forum has never been about providing a platform for that. We just need to ride out the storm for a few days and the trolls will move on to their next target, with the forum hopefully remaining under the auspices of a stringent moderation system.

It doesn't matter if people aren't openly misogynistic. One of their primary goals was to remove even the discussion of things like female representation in gaming which is what this no politics bs amounts to.