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[HomerSimpson-Man]

When I used to watch anime, I had a bit of a love-hate relationship with Evangelion, I even bought the DVD set for it, but now getting older, man yeah, I feel the series can be pretty bad even more so.

- Bonus:
Evangelion in a Nutshell

LMAO, beautiful.

 

[midramble]

Wait... this thread again? Don't we get this thread once a season? I thought this was a bump until I didn't see my response and realized the dates were for today...

These days, the deconstruction that Evangelion was is kinda lost as so much has taken a page from it since. It's almost as if there needs to be something new that deconstructs the anime world eva created.

 

[Fafnir]

 

[Tizoc]

It is about this bitch ass wimp named shinji and how people keep bossing him around and his inability to convey his feelings and stand up for homself because of parentsl abandonment
Also his mom is a dumbass bitch whi thought her son could grow up normal while going into some scientific experiment that she know had a high chance of dieing from so she ends up dieing right in front of her son when he was like 3 years old
Also his dad is an ass and people just listen to him cuz they dont know any better
The blue haired chick is a clone of his mom but also with the dna of an entity that created mankind on earth

They all get wrapped up in this war where some alien freaks want to resurect their entity so their own species can prosper

 

[nkarafo]

Most people hate Eva just for it's story or because it's main protagonist is a wimp.

If this was a movie with real people, i would agree. Acting and story are very important because otherwise, watching real people isn't interesting.

But this is animation. A cartoon. There are other things to like. Animation/visual design should be the most important thing. Humans created animation because you can create whatever your imagination can come up with. Also, watching these drawings move is a thing on it's own. Personally, i started watching animations not because of their story (Looney Toons for instance) but because i love watching those animations, those funny expressions, etc. It's about the art of animation mostly, the story should be a less important concern. Besides, most Japanese anime have (or at least had) a nonsensical story most of the time, especially in the 90's. At least Eva had some interesting themes that made it stick out from other Mecha works.

Evangelion's main draw was the design for me. I saw those amazing drawings in the box art of the old VHS boxes and i was sold. Then i saw how the animation was also way above the standards of any TV series, some of the scenes would look straight out of a big budget movie. And there's the End of Evangelion. The Asuka battle scenes are some of the most amazing animations ever created and i was too busy being impressed by it to complain about the main character's psychological problems.

It's the same thing with Red Line more recently. The story sucks so much that i would say it's the worst of any anime so far. But i still love it because as an animation, it does it's job extremely well.

 

[javac]

Evangelion is the greatest anime series of all time.

 

[hateradio]

op clearly hasnt seen ghost stories

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxJ4VWoeOzs

Ghost is Bad

?

 

[Chuckie]

A Giant robot with the soul of your dead mother in it... and in which you feel what happens to the robot.
A smoking girl who is way too old for you
A redhead who is a total bitch to you
A submissive girl who was created with the remains of your mother.

Yeah sounds like a sweet deal

 

[Septic360]

Well I was JUST about to start watching this series but the OP's post has put me off it.

The lead sounds like an arse and the plot seems contrived based on what's been said.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[nkarafo]

Well I was JUST about to start watching this series but the OP's post has put me off it.

The lead sounds like an arse and the plot seems contrived based on what's been said.

Thanks for the heads up!

Too bad. You just missed one of the most well designed and impressive works in the genre.

 

[Einchy]

Well I was JUST about to start watching this series but the OP's post has put me off it.

The lead sounds like an arse and the plot seems contrived based on what's been said.

Thanks for the heads up!

You decided to watch one of the most critically acclaimed and beloved animes ever made and then you don't because one guy says it's bad?

 

[Yabberwocky]

Well I was JUST about to start watching this series but the OP's post has put me off it.

The lead sounds like an arse and the plot seems contrived based on what's been said.

Thanks for the heads up!

OP, what has your terrible taste done?! You've taken Septic away from Eva's light!

Seriously, watch the first episode, see what you think about it? Eva's a lot of things, but contrived isn't really one.

 

[JonathanPower]

At first the lack of charisma of the main character bothered me too. But I eventually started loving the anime becasue I really loved the setting.

 

[EmpressInYellow]

There are valid criticisms to be made of the show. The ending is kind of a mess. Some of the symbolism substitutes obscurity for profundity.

"The protagonist isn't a badass self-insert who's totally into piloting giant death machines against mind-shattering abominations" is not a valid criticism.

 

[Grug]

I watched the original series when I was about 17 and loved it, have watched it a few times since and can understand a lot of the criticisms but I still enjoy it.

That said, I do not understand all this rebuild stuff and how the Evangelion movie and End of Evangelion all fit around the original series.

Anyone able to give me a quick cliff's notes (or a link to same) that puts all this stuff in context and where I should start, and what I should ignore as someone who has only watched the original 26 episodes?

 

[munchie64]

Well I was JUST about to start watching this series but the OP's post has put me off it.

The lead sounds like an arse and the plot seems contrived based on what's been said.

Thanks for the heads up!

Don't stray into the darkness of the OP.

See the praise the show gets from others here (and in the OT for the show that I made).

 

[Hypemaster]

You bold OP, I like that.

 

[BLACKLAC]

This anime is garbage. Watch Champloo if you are desperate for some christian themes in your anime.

 

[Sifl]

It's shit and End of Evangelion made it an even bigger steaming pile of shit then it already was.

 

[Via Purifico]

This anime is garbage. Watch Champloo if you are desperate for some christian themes in your anime.

Samurai Champloo? I don't recall there ever being any major religious themes in that if at all.
I guess you can count

Spoiler

Fuu's father for leaving cause he was persecuted for being a christian

But I don't think that aspect was ever told in detail despite having some bearings on reality during that time period. I agree to watch the show, it's the best 26 episodes you'll ever see.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

The worst part is that pretty much everyone overlooks Anno's more complex and much better written Gunbuster series for this goddamn anime full of random ass Judeo-Christian wankery all over the place.

One actually has substance and high concepts.

The other feels like Anno based the entire thing on a fucking Jehovah's Witness pamphlet he read while high.

Spoiler

I still like the damn show in part, but I hate seeing it recommended as a 'deep' show. Ugh

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Ok, for realsies. It pretty much took the mecha genre and flipped it on it's head and deconstructed it. The setting is very much fantasy but it has a bleak tone that was not common in that era and has complex character relationships and portrays very well how it is to go through puberty if you're insecure about yourself.

Many of the character archetypes that are now so derivative were pretty clever as well. Tsundere characters have been a staple for many years before, but it always had a romantic element behind it and it was just comic relief and a façade. Asuka being gorgeous, yet actively disliking shinji was pretty novel for that era and it's managed well through out the whole show. All of the supporting class is well established and have emotional depth to them.

The fights and the actual menace they Angels presented was also novel. You didn't have the hero saves the day after every episode rinse and repeat. There were consequences and the state of the world was confusing and grim. All of the fights are really inventive and very well animated as well.

If you dissociate it from it's context, it's going to seem good but not great since a lot of the things have been done better. But if you insert it in the time frame that gave it life, that's where it truly shines. A few years later Bebop came along and reset the bar for quality and that hasn't been topped yet.

Basically this.

I loved EVA for its design choices and its connections between characters back in the day.

The OP is right though, don't try to make out any sense of the greater story line..
There isn't one.

 

[Haly]

One actually has substance and high concepts.

Speaking of, I'm reminded of this great analysis of Gunbuster.

The reason is significant: most fans outside of Japan are simply unaware of the imperialistic and jingoistic framework behind Gunbuster. This is not because of a lack of attention (fans watch, rewatch, freeze, rewind, screencap, analyze and over-analyze the show) but because Gunbuster has been systematically constructed in such a way that only Japanese people will hear the message of Empire. The construction is so adept that not even good, accurate subtitling will lay it bare. In Gunbuster the elements that are conventionally carried across in film subtitling are precisely not the ones that convey this imperialism.

https://animekritik.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/imperialism-translation-gunbuster-introduction/

 

[patapuf]

The worst part is that pretty much everyone overlooks Anno's more complex and much better written Gunbuster series for this goddamn anime full of random ass Judeo-Christian wankery all over the place.

One actually has substance and high concepts.

The other feels like Anno based the entire thing on a fucking Jehovah's Witness pamphlet he read while high.

Spoiler

I still like the damn show in part, but I hate seeing it recommended as a 'deep' show. Ugh

I don't think anyone that argues that eva has depth does it in regards to christian themes.

And i don't think eva lacks in substance and high concepts. One of the most common complaints is that it's too abstract for it's own good.

 

[DocSeuss]

But that's the point. Shinji is presented with all the opportunities that a kid in any other shounen anime would have--giant robots, hot babes, etc--but it doesn't work out. It's kinda like looking at Watchmen and going "why is it so grim and gritty? they have superpowers! This should be awesome!"

That's what deconstruction is. Geez. The joke's not funny when it has to distort the work to make a punchline.

 

[Dreavus]

A ton of the side scenes and even a few of the main story scenes make no sense if you aren't familiar with the world, which kinda sucks. The whole thing about S2 engines and WTF Gendo was doing with the

Spoiler

Adam embryo

and arguably the entire point of SEELE's plan is mostly contextless nonesense if you haven't read up about it. That's how I felt anyways. However it made a lot more sense my second viewing almost a decade later both because it was me revisiting the show having already seen it, and I knew a bit more about the world of Eva.

Also, I viewed Shinji in a different light this time around ("See him as a child rather than peer" as someone so eloquently put it in the Eva discussion thread. Seriously, that was like a small revelation. The kid cannot catch a break and the magnitude of what he's being asked to do is absolutely crazy if you stop and think about it.) From that perspective you can understand why he reacts the way he does, and maybe even resist the urge to complain about how whiny he is.

I watched the original series when I was about 17 and loved it, have watched it a few times since and can understand a lot of the criticisms but I still enjoy it.

That said, I do not understand all this rebuild stuff and how the Evangelion movie and End of Evangelion all fit around the original series.

Anyone able to give me a quick cliff's notes (or a link to same) that puts all this stuff in context and where I should start, and what I should ignore as someone who has only watched the original 26 episodes?

I haven't caught up with the rebuild stuff either. I think they are a "retelling" with a few new characters and stuff. It's not quite finished yet either.

I'd watch End of Evangelion for completion's sake. I was very disappointed with the original final 2 episodes back when I first saw the show. I remember I had friends "warning me" about the ending and how the studio basically ran out of money. However End of Evangelion basically shows "what really happens" during episode 25 and 26 while the world is going mad. I was actually in the same situation as you having seen the series in full a long time ago but never saw the End of Evangelion movie to tie it together.

It gets a little high concept and kind of insane especially at the very end but I think it's worth watching, if even just for completion's sake. I added it on to a full series re-watch recently and the whole package is really something else. Great series.

 

[Playsage]

Emo fag.....
Great job deconstructing the work, I highly recommend the transformers movies. Shit blows up and hot women show up, you'll love it. If your looking for an anime watch black lagoon, it's a show without any substance and shit blows up. Don't forget about tits!

Thank you for speaking the truth

 

[WaterAstro]

Don't worry OP. I'll take all the hate.

Cowboy Bebop is the worst anime ever.

 

[Monochromaticx]

100% agree OP. At least the fights were awesome.

 

[munchie64]

The worst part is that pretty much everyone overlooks Anno's more complex and much better written Gunbuster series for this goddamn anime full of random ass Judeo-Christian wankery all over the place.

One actually has substance and high concepts.

The other feels like Anno based the entire thing on a fucking Jehovah's Witness pamphlet he read while high.

Spoiler

I still like the damn show in part, but I hate seeing it recommended as a 'deep' show. Ugh

I think we can all agree NGE has a distinct lack of Gainaxing.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Evangelion is the greatest anime ever. It subverts all cringeworthy anime tropes and ultimately presents a psychological deconstruction of these characters with an actual meaningful message being conveyed.

 

[FiraB]

Obviously never watched RahXephon.

Hell if you really want to see the worst anime ever made then watch Mars of Destruction.

Both make NGE look somewhat good.

op clearly hasnt seen ghost stories

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxJ4VWoeOzs

Hey now that dub is god-like, if we are talking about the japanese dub then sure its utter crap but the english dub is great for a laugh.

 

[Ban Puncher]

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Speaking of, I'm reminded of this great analysis of Gunbuster.


https://animekritik.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/imperialism-translation-gunbuster-introduction/

I have never seen this before! A really interesting read. Reading through Part Two now...

I don't think anyone that argues that eva has depth does it in regards to christian themes.

And i don't think eva lacks in substance and high concepts. One of the most common complaints is that it's too abstract for it's own good.

Well, I have always felt that all the random imagery just muddies the message. It's pretty well known that a lot of anime directors (including talented ones like Anno) just shove that stuff in because its unique and cool. I am not a biblical scholar so maybe I am just off the mark, but none of the symbolism ever seemed to be more than superficial in Evangelion.

Also Shinji as a messiah figure always just felt laughable to me.

I think we can all agree NGE has a distinct lack of Gainaxing.

Didn't Gunbuster basically invent it? I seem to remember similar stuff in NGE with Asuka and Misato in the apartment, but it has been a long time since I have seen the actual series.

 

[ECC]

Hmm.. I see a lot of complaining about the individual characters. In addition, it seems like some people have an issue with the story relying less on the contemporary (simple) ideas for how a story with heavy action elements should play out.

Some of these criticisms seem to be based mostly on personal preference, i.e. I want my super power fantasy with my alter ego piloting a big ass robot, save the day and get the girl. It's fine if that is what you want, but to use what you want cf. what you get as a point of criticism seems like poor form to me.

That being said I can understand why some people will have a problem with the storytelling and the story (for some people the lack thereof). With that in mind, I still think that most people who criticize the anime forget just when the NGE was made (hint its 20 years old). With that context, NGE absolutely challenged many of the conventions about how story should be told, about which themes you could intertwine and the structure and content of Mecha like anime as a whole.

If NGE was released today would it fly? Probably not in the form/presentation of 1996. What you have to remember is that Anime in 2016 has NGE as its legacy and that many of the current conventions etc. developed organically from the footprints of NGE.

Personally, I think that the constant use of NGE as the best anime of all time (you see this frequently) ultimately does the series a disservice. Many people for whom the series is a bad fit, or who would probably enjoy it a lot more after watching a string of other related anime first are disappointed or confused when they encounter the anime based on forum board recommendations etc.

All that being said - Gunbuster for the win!

 

[knkng]

Well, I have always felt that all the random imagery just muddies the message. It's pretty well known that a lot of anime directors (including talented ones like Anno) just shove that stuff in because its unique and cool. I am not a biblical scholar so maybe I am just off the mark, but none of the symbolism ever seemed to be more than superficial in Evangelion.

Also Shinji as a messiah figure always just felt laughable to me.

Evangelion was never about Christianity. It just uses the familiar terms and imagery as as an analogue for what is happening in the show. You could call the Angels Klingons and it wouldn't make any difference as far as the story goes. Also, Shinji as a God-type figure is a representation of a personal journey. Despite it's grandeur nature, the show is just about the way that Shinji copes with trauma and other unsavory aspects of life.

Didn't Gunbuster basically invent it? I seem to remember similar stuff with Asuka and Misato in the apartment, but it has been a long time since I have seen the actual series.

The Gainax bounce!

Pretty sure it's first seen in Daicon IV Opening Animation. But yeah, Gunbuster is where it's used in abundance.

 

[Verelios]

Physiology, how does it work?

 

[blackjaw]

OP I hope you spend the ban time rewatching the series and realizing it's actually pretty good

 

[Langdon Alger]

This anime is garbage. Watch Champloo if you are desperate for some christian themes in your anime.

Champloo has no character development and almost no plot.

 

[striferser]

My favorite anime of all time and the one that made me become interested in anime as a medium.

For a 13/14 y.o kid, Shinji did his best. And let's be real, most kid will probably fuck it and died during their first sortie. Shinji is actaully a badass with low self esteem, depression, and daddy issue rolled in one. Seriously, he did okay all thing considered. Sure, he's whining a lot, but that's the point. Dude is a kid taking a shit load of responsibility forced by his asshole dad.

 

[Valjean Lafitte]

I laughed, but I don't think that's entirely fair to either work. Large stretches of Adolescence of Utena are pretty easy to follow, I think what trips people up is the just the increasing rate of 'new' characters and relationships getting introduced. It's really aimed at series veterans (much like End of Eva) but I don't know if it was sold that way, especially in America.

I enjoyed Adolescence, but disagree that it's easy to follow. As surreal as Revolutionary Girl Utena can be at times, it never goes off-the-rails batshit crazy the way the movie does (i.e.

Spoiler

Anthy turning into a car

).

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Evangelion was never about Christianity. It just uses the familiar terms and imagery as as an analogue for what is happening in the show. You could call the Angels Klingons and it wouldn't make any difference as far as the story goes. Also, Shinji as a God-type figure is a representation of a personal journey. Despite it's grandeur nature, the show is just about the way that Shinji copes with trauma and other unsavory aspects of life.

I know there have been a few animators and such who said it was just there to look cool and set it apart from other mech shows (as I said in a previous post) but I think that's just a cop out honestly.

It's pretty obviously supposed to be their take on a Genesis story. I mean it's right there in the title! That along with the god-figure theme with Shinji are definitely supposed to go further than simple cool imagery. It just always fell flat for me in that respect.

The show is still entertaining and I do like a lot of the themes. I just think its complexity and depth get far overhyped.

Edit: also I will never understand how people think Shinji was some revolutionary character archetype. He's always been a poor man's Amuro in my eyes.

 

[knkng]

I know there have been a few animators and such who said it was just there to look cool and set it apart from other mech shows (as I said in a previous post) but I think that's just a cop out honestly.

It's pretty obviously supposed to be their take on a Genesis story. I mean it's right there in the title! That along with the god-figure theme with Shinji are definitely supposed to go further than simple cool imagery. It just always fell flat for me in that respect.

The show is still entertaining and I do like a lot of the themes. I just think its complexity and depth get far overhyped.

But the point I'm making is that the complexity of the story has nothing to do with the Christian terminology or imagery. The word Genesis in the title is just another analogue. In the context of the show, Shinji is creating a "new" world. In the context of the story, Shinji is finding clarity.

I think people tend to get too hung up on what they are seeing, and not what is going on under the surface. It would be like saying the movie Magnolia is about the Book of Exodus (spoilers!). It would be ignoring what the story is trying to convey.

 

[cacildo]

Funny ive just decided to watch this (because of the intro parodies on youtube)

Aand.... ive watched some 5 episodes and i really dont get why people like it

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I was just wanna say this series attention to detail when it comes to composition of shots is virtually unparalleled in anime as far as I'm concerned. Its no secret watching it, especially the later episodes, that there were on a tight budget, and the series directors consistently find the best visual short hand to express its ideas.Its just a skill Anno and co have that I think its even better than Miyazaki, Otomo, Kon, etc. There's a painterly quality to how they can consistently, instantly imbue emotional/intellectual meaning from using of color or staging or lighting.

I think that's really the most overlooked aspect of the show, beyond all its character studies, blatant religious symbolism, mindfuckery, or dope sound/art design.

This article goes into more detail.

Yup, this so very much.

I rewatched Eva recently and was blown away by the extremely high amount of interesting shots. I'd almost want to call it 'experimental' but that would be implying that some of it doesn't work or seems unnatural, which isn't the case.

Evangelion is a masterpiece, incl. End of Evangelion. I've yet to rewatch the rebuild series, which clearly isn't as good, and am kinda curious if those films feature equally as many great shots.

 

[Yeezus H. Christ]

I've never watched NGE. But just going off of a couple of clips on YouTube, the setting and lore already seem interesting as hell just based off of imagery. There was this one shot of a gigantic face looming in the horizon looking all dead and shit while robots in Jesus crucifixion poses hung at 60 degree angles in some weird sea of red goo.

I had no idea what the hell I was looking at, but damn if it didn't make me want to find out more.

 

[fabricated backlash]

The series started out nice, but around halfway through it just became too focused smelling it's own farts.
And by the time the ending came around it was so far up it's own ass it forgot what the point was to begin with.

In all seriousness though, every theme or philosophical thread that might have been there in the beginning was lost by some of animes worst storytelling, and the premise of the whole show was betrayed by the incompetent ending episodes and movies.
Whatever it was they wanted to convey just comes around as random garbage.

The show has nothing to say by the end and simply tries to hide that fact behind pseudo philosophical musings and the hope that people will find meaning where there is none.

I personally think Evangelion is the biggest Troll in the history of anime.

 

[Fbh]

I liked the first half of the show. When it was a more standard action show with an interesting core concept and world.

By the end it just gets too overly convulted and "deep" for my taste

It's the same with the rebuild movies. 1 and 2 were great, taking the elements from the show that I liked and taking out the overly convulted crap. Then they went right back to it in the third one. I lost any interest in watching the new one if/when it comes out (I even sold my Blu-rays of the first 2)

 

[zbarron]

is this a religious anime? why they have so many bible names. it feels like xenogears.

There are lots of similarities. If you liked Xenogears, check it out.

 

[Jintor]

nooooooooooooooo