Well, Rebuild 1.0 certainly does! ...Because it's almost entirely a shot-for-shot remake of the first few episodes of the show.
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Neon Genesis Evangelion AKA the worst anime ever
- Thread starter EGOMON
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Well, Rebuild 1.0 certainly does! ...Because it's almost entirely a shot-for-shot remake of the first few episodes of the show.
The worst thing that happened to Evangelion is that everyone kept recommending it to anime newbies even though this is a horrible idea since the series is so dependent on a working knowledge of the context it was created in.
This results in people who hear about its critical acclaim, watch it blindly, and then mistake the dressing(Christian symbolism) as the substance, while completely missing the criticism of anime tropes and deeply personal exploration of depression and loneliness. So you end up with people either rejecting it as pretentious shit or people writing pretentious shit about how deep it is, and yet neither group is even capable of actually understanding the series because they aren't aware of the context.
TL;DR please stop recommending Evangelion to anime virgins.
This results in people who hear about its critical acclaim, watch it blindly, and then mistake the dressing(Christian symbolism) as the substance, while completely missing the criticism of anime tropes and deeply personal exploration of depression and loneliness. So you end up with people either rejecting it as pretentious shit or people writing pretentious shit about how deep it is, and yet neither group is even capable of actually understanding the series because they aren't aware of the context.
TL;DR please stop recommending Evangelion to anime virgins.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
It's ok, OP. Not every genre-defining, boundary-pushing, absolutely brilliant piece of art is for everyone.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I am not saying that it doesn't have any redeemable qualities. My original point is that the over reliance on that sort of symbology and such just muddies their more interesting themes.
This is a visual medium. That sort of symbology should strengthen and support the narrative. If you can write off a significant portion of the work as basically meaningless drivel it has failed in that sense IMO.
I also just don't really think they do such an amazing job with Shinji's development and overall story. Stuff gets too unfocused with all the subplots such as all the shadowy NERV conspiracy storylines.
I would put stuff like Amuro's growth as a character way way waaaaay above Shinji's. The struggles he has to deal with are much more grounded. He has literally no choice unlike Shinji who is actually given a way out in a few cases. He isn't fighting monstrous angel beings. He has to deal with killing other humans where the only difference is circumstance and ideology.
So many times in NGE it feels like Shinji's trauma is just caused by the creators being sadistic fucks.
I just feel like that sort of journey has been done much better a dozen times over. The unique factor with NGE is the symbology and psychoanalyitic themes.
Maybe it has just been too long since I've seen the series. I enjoyed it a lot the first time through when I was younger, usually because of the shock value and Rule of Cool. But it has never held up on rewatches.
Glad i read your post, i watched GunBuster (and DieBuster) this weekend and was pretty disappointed by it mostly because of the awful pacing, reading this whole analysis made me appreciate it a bit more and it made me understand that run of the mill anime watchers like me can't catch the whole essence of something unless you have some background knowledge about it.
Glad the version i watched had the backwards K in the last scene and that i kinda caught the meaning of that though
Dash_Riprock
Member
OP banned for this thread?
manipulate
Member
It's the GOAT
Visually a masterpiece, music is amazing too
Does whatever the hell it wants instead of being bound by genre conventions/viewer expectations of the medium
It overshoots, it's too self-important, it sprawls incoherently in some respects
But at heart it's a very simple story about a young boy. It's hard to be too critical of its flaws because they're a direct result of how ambitious it is.
In the final analysis, it is an exceptional work, one of the greatest in any medium, ever
Rebuild is much more standard anime fare, but as a result much tighter.
Visually a masterpiece, music is amazing too
Does whatever the hell it wants instead of being bound by genre conventions/viewer expectations of the medium
It overshoots, it's too self-important, it sprawls incoherently in some respects
But at heart it's a very simple story about a young boy. It's hard to be too critical of its flaws because they're a direct result of how ambitious it is.
In the final analysis, it is an exceptional work, one of the greatest in any medium, ever
Rebuild is much more standard anime fare, but as a result much tighter.
And much worse
bakerbakes
Member
I'm going to assume it was due to his poor language choices in the post.
Honestly, I would go even further than just familiarity with anime. This is a show that should not be recommended unless you really know the viewer's taste in storytelling. For example, if somebody thinks that Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is just a bunch of nonsensical bullshit, then I would never recommend Evangelion to them, even if they've seen hundreds of other animes.
But yeah, it's a shame that so many people being introduced to this show seem to think that it's some kind of action series or something. It reminds me of the backlash against Drive from people who were tricked by the "Fast and Furious" styled marketing.
Well, I must respectfully disagree.
I think the imagery and symbolism is what makes the series so powerful and unique, as opposed to many other similarly themed stories. When I say that the Christianity is merely an analogue, I'm simply saying that it is not the purpose for which the story was written (ie. looking for biblical meaning within the story is pointless). It's like how The Heart of Darkness can take place in Africa or Vietnam. The core elements that the story is conveying remain the same, despite the interchangeable setting. That's not to say that the setting in either case is meaningless, in both versions the setting is of paramount importance, yet is not the purpose of the story.
I don't know much about Amuro, but it sounds like a fairly common tale. The internal struggles of being a soldier and so forth. But I can't speak too much on that since my knowledge of Gundam is limited (but I have liked what I've seen of it). I would also recommend the original Space Battleship Yamato if you're into that sort of storytelling.
And you're right, Shinji is not a soldier, and is not necessarily forced to do anything. However, Shinji's journey is a personal one. It's not about the morality of killing or anything like that. Evangelion is a visual representation of overcoming deeply rooted personal issues. He projects, misinterprets, suffers, rebels, and so on. His arc is not a straight line, and is not even necessarily satisfying. It's a bizarre journey through a broken psyche (and I would extend this to Asuka as well).
If this isn't appealing to you, then so be it. But it's not intended to be what you seem to think it should be.
I'll agree that some of the side stories could be done away with, though.
he wishes that he could turn back time
cause now the guilt is all his
Giant Panda
Member
Agreed with the OP. There is really no plot that makes any sense what so ever. I like to compare it to LOST: some people enjoyed the mystery and hunt of trying to find meaning in the plot, but in the end there is nothing.
And no I haven't watched the two movies or whatever because if your garbage anime needs after the fact explanations of literally everything then you know the writers fucked up... which simply proves my point.
And no I haven't watched the two movies or whatever because if your garbage anime needs after the fact explanations of literally everything then you know the writers fucked up... which simply proves my point.
The movies are just a more visual retelling of episodes 25 and 26, since they had run out of budget for the TV series.
They don't really give you any more explanation than what you are given in the TV series (barring the last several minutes which is not represented in the TV version).
The symbology does strenghten the narrative, but the narrative - and the symbols - are not about the plot with the angels and Nerv but what is happening with the characters, internally. Adam, Eva ect. are not important because they are christian but because of what they represent within the story. You could have used Islamic or Buddist names - it wouldn't change the story.
Much like shinji's story arc is not about him becoming a hero (unlike above mentioned Amuro), the fact that he has a choice is imperative for his character arc. It doesn't work if he doesn't have one.
I dunno, for me EVA is all about the psychosis of it's various characters (and not just shinji) and how for the most part, they can't overcome them. The angels, the conspiracies, the fighting are suplemental to that.
I get how people that want a more traditional action show don't like it though.
It's not because you didn't find it, or you didn't relate to it, or you didn't feel it, that it isn't there.
Just like I said to the OP, you are free to dislike EVA all you want, but it doesn't take anything away from its brilliance or the amount of insight and themes people have been arguing about for the past 20 years.
BudokaiMR2
Member
As I said many times, I enjoy the series a lot. I just think the themes you are touching on are presented in an unfocused and nonsensical way. His trauma feels forced with incredibly sadistic episodes like the one where he is literally consumed by the Evangelion for 30 days. Or the instances where the angels and Eva units alike basically tear his and Asuka's minds apart. Or the episode where his asshole father puts unit 01 on autopilot and makes Shinji watch as it tears Toji apart.
I like the exact same themes you are pointing out, but just feel like they are barely even the focus of the show in too many cases. The random subplots and monster of the week stuff get way more screen time. Maybe I am just remembering wrong though. There is a lot of potential there but I feel like it is squandered for the majority of the series.
Regarding Amuro, he is not a solider in the first series either. That is the entire point of his journey. Circumstances force him into the situation and he rebels in a similar fashion to Shinji in many situations.
He is also given a way out in a few circumstances later in the series but eventually overcomes his issues and returns. He also has daddy issues but they are nowhere near as thin as the ones between Gendo/Shinji. Gendo is incredibly 2 dimensional IMO and is one of my biggest issues with the series. He's a caricature of a 'bad father' taken to incredible extremes.
So much of the trauma that Shinji has to deal with just feels fabricated and sadistic just for the sake of it.
Professor Renegade
Banned
Evangelion is an unlikeable mess, and I agree with OP for the most part. That being said, if it were any different then it wouldn't be the genre defying show that it's known to be.
JimJamJones
Member
I'm around half-way though my first watch of it.
I like it, for the most part. But yeah, Shinji is so off-putting, I sometimes want to stop watching right then and there.
I like it, for the most part. But yeah, Shinji is so off-putting, I sometimes want to stop watching right then and there.
I agree with you in some ways, but plot isn't all that important imo. The way it works with the character's does add a lot to the plotting though.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Visual depth with uneeded complexity isn't particularly good. There are good shots but at the end of the day there can be major improvements in dialogue, character motivations, and overall story that connects it all together. The mechs are supposed to represent the mothers but at the end of the day they're not utilized particularly well. I don't think many people even realized that.
Most people get too emotional with this kind of stuff that they're unable to say, "shiiit, they're doing a lot of exposition". The same occurs with other shows like Hunter x Hunter where people say it's great but they literally repeat what's actually going on. Shows don't get a pass for stuff like that.
Lights and Waves
Member
I don't think Eva is the worst anime ever, but it is EXTREMELY overrated.
Have to agree to disagree because despite its flaws I thought it handled most aspects pretty well whether it was the visuals, the editing, the musical choices and uses, and so on.
Also I don't mind exposition and I think HxH did mess it up but that's because they stuck too close to the manga. The narrator is used quite a bit in the manga and the show didn't really have a way to make up for the fact of how heavily its used. They didn't translate the show to a visual medium as well as they could have in that sense but with as crazy as a bunch of the Nen fights got I don't know how they would have overcome some of the more obtuse power match ups and abilities. Hell certain characters were even based around giving exposition.
There are a lot of monologues, which can turn some people off but I think, depending on what highlights you see in the series they can work quite well. Some of my favourite episodes are the ones that have Shinji alone with his thoughts.
JadedWriter
Member
Xenogears even has their own version of Seele, the similarities are funny to me. It's pretty much like Eva the game with the only difference being that Shinji and I'm assuming Citan's the Gendo have excellent hand to hand skills.
I'm starting to think Shinji is only relatable to people with actual social anxieties. On various occasions I was able to relate to and sympathize with the guy. That's why I'm pretty much closest to Rei and Shinji.
JadedWriter
Member
It came in the movies and so did Shinji...
Sorry, I'm not trying to suggest that you don't like the show. Just that your expectations don't exactly line up with what the show is presenting to you.
Gendo is cartoonishly one dimensional because the story dictates that he must be, just as every other character is initially one dimensional. Eventually we learn a little bit more about him and his reasoning for what he does, but it's irrelevant. He is literally bitten in half by Unit 01. Shinji essentially murders his father. Shinji doesn't care why his father did what he did. It's just "fuck you" fantasy fulfillment. Not everything is given reason or conclusion. Shinji never allows him that satisfaction.
The characters function in extremes because it is mocking the subject matter (or perhaps mocking the viewer in a sense). Misato is a bubbly, sexy, big breasted, fan-service providing character. This is not uncommon in anime. However, as the series progresses she is exposed as emotionally stunted, even going so far as having her dying gesture to Shinji being a sexualized one. This character, who is from the beginning providing cartoonish amounts of sexualization to titillate Shinji (and the audience) is then seen being fucked by Kaji. It's simple and crude and disgusting to Shinji. Anno is presenting you with something, only to rip it apart before your eyes later on.
Everything that happens with the Angels is just there to shape the emotional state of Shinji and the other characters. You're right, it is sadistic, but that's what makes it so enjoyable. The show is not attempting to be grounded in any sort of reality. It is taking a story that you think you've seen before, and twisting it to the absolute breaking point (and thus, taking the characters to their breaking point). It is a brutal and disturbing deconstruction of a standard formula, and how it would affect these characters.
It's not trying to portray any sort of heroes, or triumph, or overcoming odds or anything like that. The addendum at the end of the movie makes sure to put a final nail in that coffin.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Oh, if it wasn't clear I am talking solely about the series itself. I really see EoE as a separate thing and actually think it is the best part of the property.
I'm not remembering wrongly am I? Shinji killing Gendo is nowhere in the series is it?
I don't know how much I buy into the whole "EoE was a big fuck you to the fans" theory because a lot of the narrative developments make too much sense, but then again he does flash the death threats he received at the end of the movie....
I still agree that the series itself is entertaining and an interesting deconstruction of the genre. That was never being disputed.
I just think those interesting parts are overshadowed by how much the show actually spends on silly conspiracy plots and nonsensical religious allegory.
I enjoyed EoE much more because even though those parts are still present, I feel like the focus on things like character motivations and the existential dread that Shinji deals with is much clearer and better executed.
Agreed, I think End of Eva is the best balancing act Eva did regarding satisfying action, character study, and philosophical religious mumbo jumbo. I loved every second of it, from Asuka's awakened insanity to the batshit Instrumentality transformation.
It would never have occurred to me that it was a fuck you because I thought it was the perfect conclusion to the series, tonally and otherwise.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I learned about that theory in a JP popular culture class in college with a professor who really went out of his way to provide as much context as humanly possible while studying the various works he taught.
And honestly, it does seem believable that at the very least he pushed the grotesque and violent aspects to 11 in that movie as a response. I know my own response to the original ending, as a young teenager spending my meager part-time earnings buying overpriced VHS tapes as they released, wasn't the most sane or rational one....
If I remember right there were even Japanese fans defacing the Gainax offices with threats written in graffiti. The death threat letters were definitely real.
That class was so much fun and that professor was one of the best teachers I ever had.
I can't recall if Gendo is killed in the TV series, but I don't believe it's ever shown.
And I don't necessarily mean "fuck you" to the fans in a negative way. I guess it would be more of a "fuck you" to the genre, essentially taking the fans along for the ride (I was not referring to the movie alone, but the series as a whole). And based on how many people seem to be upset with how the series plays out (subverting general expectations for such a premise), I'd say it's not the most absurd conclusion.
But yeah, I can also see some animosity coming through the movie as well.
As I said before, I agree that certain elements could be cut from the TV series. But establishing it as a "giant robot fights monster of the week" cut and paste premise (which you had mentioned in a previous post), and then slowly twisting and distorting it as the episodes progress is integral to understanding and appreciating the conclusion. And yeah, the Angels are basically just Anno beating his characters with a stick, but dammit it gets results!
And hey, I know it's not the most amazing thing ever put to film (although I would say that it is a visual and auditory splendor!), but I feel that it perfectly accomplishes what it intended to do, and it just so happens to tickle me in all the right places! 0_o
Every time someone posts that comic strip, I feel obligated to post this one:
Much better
JadedWriter
Member
The repair guy finally fixed Misato's cable...then he dies.Every time someone posts that comic strip, I feel obligated to post this one:
Much better
BudokaiMR2
Member
I can't recall if Gendo is killed in the TV series, but I don't believe it's ever shown.
And I don't necessarily mean "fuck you" to the fans in a negative way. I guess it would be more of a "fuck you" to the genre, essentially taking the fans along for the ride (I was not referring to the movie alone, but the series as a whole). And based on how many people seem to be upset with how the series plays out (subverting general expectations for such a premise), I'd say it's not the most absurd conclusion.
But yeah, I can also see some animosity coming through the movie as well.
As I said before, I agree that certain elements could be cut from the TV series. But establishing it as a "giant robot fights monster of the week" cut and paste premise (which you had mentioned in a previous post), and then slowly twisting and distorting it as the episodes progress is integral to understanding and appreciating the conclusion. And yeah, the Angels are basically just Anno beating his characters with a stick, but dammit it gets results!
And hey, I know it's not the most amazing thing ever put to film (although I would say that it is a visual and auditory splendor!), but I feel that it perfectly accomplishes what it intended to do, and it just so happens to tickle me in all the right places! 0_o
Ah, sorry I wasn't actually referring to your "fuck you fantasy fulfillment" comment, though I can see why it would seem that way. Was referencing the general theory that as you said there was some animosity in the theatrical versions because of the fan backlash. Probably should have explained that better.
Even with its flaws, I count the original series up there with Madoka Magica and Gatchaman Crowds as one of the best examples of deconstructing anime genres and tropes. I love that kind of stuff.
I honestly have no idea what he is doing with the new movies though. I have only seen the first one (which was great but felt like a by-the-numbers retelling with better focus ala EoE), but really don't like what I have heard from co-workers regarding the 3rd movie especially.
Well, I would say that the Rebuild movies are just doing another subversion tactic. The first one is essentially the same as the TV series. The second one continues to follow the premise, but make huge alterations to major events and character arcs. And then the third one is just off the rails into basically an entirely new show altogether.
I think the second movie is actually really incredible, and for anybody who ever wished that Shinji would rise to the challenge, he definitely has his moment. It's a fun little alternate universe (universe continuation!) telling of the story.
The third one, yeah. I don't despise it, but it is no longer Evangelion. Quite literally.
fabricated backlash
Member
Every time someone posts that comic strip, I feel obligated to post this one:
Much better
Sorry but this straw man BS isn't disproving any of the legitimate criticism against the show.
It disproves a lot of the weak arguments as many of them break down to,"I don't like the whiny bitch in my giant mecha show." There are legit problems with the show but most people don't pick up on those, they go for the easiest lowest hanging fruit on the tree and then act like they've made some huge revelation that will convince us the show is shit.
JadedWriter
Member
Somebody earlier even called Shinji a poor mans Amuro, which is the last thing I'd call Shinji since their character arcs are two very different things. With Amuro for example I never thought Amuro's driving internal conflict amongst other things were parental angst and abandonment issues, and that's just on the surface. Shinji has a whole slew of problems that you really can't pin as "poor mans Gundam pilot."
Ordinaryundone
Member
Every time someone posts that comic strip, I feel obligated to post this one:
Much better
More like the Repair guy shows up, fucks the wife, then the rest of the show is showing the wife's horrible divorce proceedings for infidelity after giving birth to the Repair guy's kid while he slides into alcoholism and refuses to pay child support.
It's a deconstruction, the show isn't meant to be fun or answer questions. It's meant to be a turn around on the giant mecha anime genre, providing a more realist/nhilist take on the sorts of people who would do this sort of mad science, force children to find lovecraftian aliens, and the emotional and physical fallout that would destroy both of them. It was coming from a pretty bitter and cynical place in Anno's life.
OniBarubary
Banned
I'll take my Bojack Horseman x Evangelion crossover now plz
They don't.
If you love Anno's compositional style check out his live action film Shiki-Jitsu. It's a bit half baked but has some gorgeous images, and I enjoyed it.
OP hits basically the two most common complaints among people who dislike Evangelion. The first one (Shinji's character) is extremely common among watchers in general, recently relived it with people complaining about Deku in Hero Academia (even though compared to Shinji he's incredibly driven).
I completely disagree with people saying that Evangelion shouldn't be recommended to people not familiar with the genres/etc. Deconstruction/imagery/etc are nice after-the-fact things to look at as super-fans or people who enjoy intimately dissecting their media but are absolutely not necessary to enjoy Evangelion. To casual watchers I would definitely recommend to skip the last two episodes and replace them with EoE; I consider myself a fan and I still haven't watched those two in their entirety.
I completely disagree with people saying that Evangelion shouldn't be recommended to people not familiar with the genres/etc. Deconstruction/imagery/etc are nice after-the-fact things to look at as super-fans or people who enjoy intimately dissecting their media but are absolutely not necessary to enjoy Evangelion. To casual watchers I would definitely recommend to skip the last two episodes and replace them with EoE; I consider myself a fan and I still haven't watched those two in their entirety.
You're not a fan then.
MotionBlue
Member
Honestly, people trying convince others the show is shit is more telling about that person than anything else. If they tried to argue why they personally didn't like it, it would be less juvenile.
No joke, before I watched Bojack, a friend pitched it to me as "the Evangelion of western animated comedies." It's not really that ridiculous a comparison, at least as far as season one of Bojack goes - they're both shows about depression that start off as a pretty typical genre show as a bait-and-switch before going off the deep end.
In particular, the (Bojack)
drug trip sequence in Bojack S1E11
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