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[BocoDragon]

They didn't even put composite in to start with. The vast majority of TVs had no input for anything except RF in 1983, so there was no point thinking of video connectors or colour generation systems that would not be used. Sega's first two consoles didn't have RGB out either (they didn't even generate their colour in the RGB space at all). Heck until the mid 90s RGB was barely used anywhere but in Europe for any consoles.

The NES is hardest to get RGB from because while the computer uses the RGB space, the PPU generates a composite signal natively, not RGB that is then encoded to composite.

The first major system to actually have an RGB output is the Sega Mark III (from 1985), And it's not useable as-is, I've just done a big project to make it usable.

As you say, RGB was not used anywhere but Europe. And let's reflect on the fact that the NES was a total afterthought in Europe.

After Nintendo made the Famicom for the home market, their first overseas target was America. Not "the West", but America specifically. All of the design of the machine, and original games, were designed specifically to suit American tastes. Of course they re-packaged what they had done for America and shipped it in other countries later on (often through third party distributors like Mattel - even in Canada).... but something like RGB would never even be considered because Americans didn't have it.

The lack of focus Nintendo gave to PAL territories probably explains how Sega was able to carve out a foothold there.

 

[D.Lo]

The lack of focus Nintendo gave to PAL territories probably explains how Sega was able to carve out a foothold there.

Sega ironically did the opposite - the worked themselves in Europe (particularly the UK) while selling off their North American rights to the Master System.

They were both small companies, they didn't have the resources to hit so many countries hard at once (Europe is obviously much, much more complicated than America). It's one of the reasons Sony was able to do so well worldwide with the PS1, they were a much bigger company with already built distribution networks and relationships worldwide for their TVs etc, and SCEE simply piggybacked on that. Sony had an official (non-sub distributed) games presence in most European countries before Nintendo did.

 

[IrishNinja]

I wonder why Nintendo never put RGB in the NES from the start.

same reason every system but SNES didn't do RGB & games came in bullshit cardboard boxes until they finally joined the CD era in like '01

cheap as fuk

 

[ElTopo]

Which is better? A Top Loader system or one of those retron multi-game systems?

I'm surprised Top Loaders still cost quite a bit.

 

[Mercutio]

Which is better? A Top Loader system or one of those retron multi-game systems?

I'm surprised Top Loaders still cost quite a bit.

Well original hardware for sure, the multi systems suck. But Unmodified, the top loader has an iffy video signal and only outputs RF. A front loading toaster that doesn't have any flashing light issues is probably better if you don't want to pay for modification.

 

[Huggers]

Which is better? A Top Loader system or one of those retron multi-game systems?

I'm surprised Top Loaders still cost quite a bit.

Top loader all day long. I am not a fan of the retron at all. It does have the convenience factor though

 

[ElTopo]

Are the retron's not accurate to the timing of the original hard ware? Only reason why I care is that I want to see if I can beat Punch Out legit.

 

[sixteen-bit]

look into cycle accurate emulation if you want the feel of real hardware when not using the real hardware

 

[ElTopo]

look into cycle accurate emulation if you want the feel of real hardware when not using the real hardware

Is FCEU a good choice for an emulator? I heard that it's the most accurate one and pretty good for Punch Out.

 

[Bancho]

Is FCEU a good choice for an emulator? I heard that it's the most accurate one and pretty good for Punch Out.

I think Higan is the most accurate when it comes to NES/SNES emulation

 

[Khaz]

You need good reflexes to beat Punch Out I believe. Using an emulator on a PC (or an Android box like the Retron) isn't the best way to do it. You'll have delay due to the controller (bluetooth adds lag, so are some iffy converters), at least one frame due to the emulator polling your input, some more frames due to your OS and video drivers triple buffering everything, and also more delay due to your LCD screen.

But if you can do it on an emulator, it means you can definitely do it on the real thing.

 

[Bancho]

Khaz has a good point. Timing is crucial on punchout! I'd hate to play that game with lag!!

 

[televator]

I think Higan is the most accurate when it comes to NES/SNES emulation

Took the words out of my mouth. You want accuracy, higan is it. ... You're just gonna want a decent PC according to the developer's recommendations. He built it for accuracy first and not for the purpose of having an emulator that'll run on your tablet.

 

[Huggers]

anyone know whether a PAL Mega Man 1 for the Nes will run at the correct speed on an NTSC Nes (multi region). Or will it be too fast?

 

[Bancho]

anyone know whether a PAL Mega Man 1 for the Nes will run at the correct speed on an NTSC Nes (multi region). Or will it be too fast?

Runs correct speed. I had 1-4 which all played fine on my famicom

 

[Huggers]

Runs correct speed. I had 1-4 which all played fine on my famicom

Thanks Bancho. I'd heard that sometimes the music is sped up even if the gameplay isn't. Glad MM is cool. I'm gonna grab it

 

[Awakened]

You need good reflexes to beat Punch Out I believe. Using an emulator on a PC (or an Android box like the Retron) isn't the best way to do it. You'll have delay due to the controller (bluetooth adds lag, so are some iffy converters), at least one frame due to the emulator polling your input, some more frames due to your OS and video drivers triple buffering everything, and also more delay due to your LCD screen.

But if you can do it on an emulator, it means you can definitely do it on the real thing.

RetroArch reduces the video driver lag a lot with it's hard GPU sync setting. A high refresh rate monitor with fast GTG helps too. I didn't notice any lag increase when I switched from wired pads (USB Saturn and PS2 + adapter) to a Wii U Pro + Mayflash adapter. If I hear the Steam controller is any good for 2D games when it comes out, I might test wired vs. wireless on that since it looks like it'll support both.

I think Higan is the most accurate when it comes to NES/SNES emulation

Higan is only the most accurate when it comes to SNES; it's other cores aren't nearly as developed. For NES, Nestopia is still probably the best for compatibility and accuracy. The RetroArch core is based off Nestopia Undead, so it has some improvements since the last official release of the stand alone emulator.

 

[Huggers]

Is there a list anywhere of Pal Nes games that were optimised to run at the correct speed over here?

 

[-KRS-]

Runs correct speed. I had 1-4 which all played fine on my famicom

2 runs at the correct speed, but they seem to have done something with the music because it doesn't sound right on my NTSC NES. It's the correct speed but it's a bit different. I guess they adjusted it a bit so it plays at the right octave on PAL systems or something.

3's music plays at the correct speed on PAL systems, so it will play too fast on NTSC systems.

 

[D.Lo]

Is there a list anywhere of Pal Nes games that were optimised to run at the correct speed over here?

Basically only Nintendo, Rareware, Hudson, and the odd late Konami game do in my experience. Sometimes they fix the music, but not the gameplay (Capcom).

 

[Huggers]

Basically only Nintendo, Rareware, Hudson, and the odd late Konami game do in my experience. Sometimes they fix the music, but not the gameplay (Capcom).

Okay thanks. So you think the first Mega Man games music may run at a higher pitch?

 

[Timu]

same reason every system but SNES didn't do RGB & games came in bullshit cardboard boxes until they finally joined the CD era in like '01

cheap as fuk

Sounds like Nintendo alright.=p

 

[-KRS-]

Basically only Nintendo, Rareware, Hudson, and the odd late Konami game do in my experience. Sometimes they fix the music, but not the gameplay (Capcom).

Don't forget Sunsoft. I think all their PAL games were optimised.

 

[D.Lo]

Don't forget Sunsoft. I think all their PAL games were optimised.

Yes that makes sense.

Honestly, it's been a while since I had many PAL games, I'm 95% Famicom now, apart from my complete silver box Konami set (including the PAL-only ones like Silver Metal Gear, and Probotector)

 

[Timu]

Ninja Gaiden 3 is now becoming expensive...

 

[RadarScope1]

What do you all think about mixing and matching parts (cart, box, manuals, etc) in order to get a nice, whole CIB game?

 

[D.Lo]

What do you all think about mixing and matching parts (cart, box, manuals, etc) in order to get a nice, whole CIB game?

Standard practice among CIB collectors. I've done it constantly for 20 years.

 

[ZealousD]

What do you all think about mixing and matching parts (cart, box, manuals, etc) in order to get a nice, whole CIB game?

As long as they all match up, why not?

 

[Mzo]

Totally legit, I mix and match all the time.

 

[IrishNinja]

yeah, if you care about that sort of thing, it might be your only reasonable option in many cases. guys like Mzo are huge on CIB & are well aware of times when the packaging goes for more than the game itself...but if you're at a garage sale/forum/etc and have a chance at a loose cart for way way less, you just put it on a mental list & hope to find the bits on a forum deal down the road.

to me, if it wasn't your original copy in the day - or if you, like most of us, tossed the boxes/etc - i don't see a difference with getting like-things from other places, really.

 

[televator]

My OoT collectors edition is a mixed box, manual, and cart. I sleep fine at night. Not like everyone in the world has it.

 

[D.Lo]

Got to make sure they all match versions of course. Make sure it's an exact match, as the contents of boxes, manuals etc changed in reprints etc.

Though sometimes it doesn't matter. Castlevania 1 NES had 4-5 editions and all had identical manuals.

I go a step further. I want all my games to have EVERYTHING that was in the box originally. Pamphlets, fan club sign up sheets etc. You get the full 1980s experience that way!

Edit: here's the bible for that quest:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/916386-nes/faqs/49943

One of my collection goals is the complete set of Konami Famicom games with collector cards. 9 down, 12 to go...

 

[ZealousD]

Got to make sure they all match versions of course. Make sure it's an exact match, as the contents of boxes, manuals etc changed in reprints etc.

Though sometimes it doesn't matter. Castlevania 1 NES had 4-5 editions and all had identical manuals.

I go a step further. I want all my games to have EVERYTHING that was in the box originally. Pamphlets, fan club sign up sheets etc. You get the full 1980s experience that way!

Edit: here's the bible for that quest:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/916386-nes/faqs/49943

One of my collection goals is the complete set of Konami Famicom games with collector cards. 9 down, 12 to go...

You poor soul.

 

[Huggers]

I'm not fussy about how my NES games are. Cart only. Pal boxes with Ntsc games. Whatever. This hobby is too expensive for me to worry too much

 

[baphomet]

Got to make sure they all match versions of course. Make sure it's an exact match, as the contents of boxes, manuals etc changed in reprints etc.

Though sometimes it doesn't matter. Castlevania 1 NES had 4-5 editions and all had identical manuals.

I go a step further. I want all my games to have EVERYTHING that was in the box originally. Pamphlets, fan club sign up sheets etc. You get the full 1980s experience that way!

Edit: here's the bible for that quest:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/916386-nes/faqs/49943

One of my collection goals is the complete set of Konami Famicom games with collector cards. 9 down, 12 to go...

The NTSC-U version of that list was actually made by a friend of mine. He had every US NES release complete in box. Most amazing console setup ive ever seen.

 

[Mercutio]

The NTSC-U version of that list was actually made by a friend of mine. He had every US NES release complete in box. Most amazing console setup ive ever seen.

Man, I'd love to see a list like that with pictures. Kind of sad to only see it in text!

 

[baphomet]

Man, I'd love to see a list like that with pictures. Kind of sad to only see it in text!

Well this is a pic from a good 10 years ago. He goes by National Games Depot or NGD. Cool guy

Funny story. We were in training for a job together and he was talking about his game collection and so on. Said he had every nes game ever made and had built a giant nes. Of course, me being the cynic I am, assumed he was full of shit and greatly exaggerating his collection.

I went back to my apartment on my lunch break and got on the internet to look up a giant nes I remember seeing on kotaku. Fucking sure enough it was him laying across the top of it in the kotaku post.

Also found his webpage he told me to look up, and my jaw just dropped. I was in complete awe. And if I understood correctly he owns the remains of Color Dreams.

 

[D.Lo]

The NTSC-U version of that list was actually made by a friend of mine. He had every US NES release complete in box. Most amazing console setup ive ever seen.

So awesome haha!

My goals are much more modest. But I mean how good are 'ulracompletes' like my Blades of Steel and Bayou Billy here:

Family photo while they're out:

 

[Zing]

I always ensure my stuff matches. In this regard I am mainly referring to the Nintendo seal of quality. The box, manual, and cart must match. There are three different seals out there.

I also only collect the most recent rom revision of a game.

 

[Peltz]

I also only collect the most recent rom revision of a game.

Interesting practice. So what if you bought a game on release day, and it got a revised rom later in the generation? Would you seek out a 2nd cart?

 

[OnPoint]

Ninja Gaiden 3 is now becoming expensive...

Jesus really? Even the Famicom one is pricey (glad I got that like 2 months ago)

 

[RadarScope1]

Thanks for that link, D.Lo. What a great resource. I don't think I could go as far as collecting all "super completes" -- that would drive me mad. But it's really cool when you do get them. I think my favorite items in there are the posters from different publishers. The warranty cards and Nintendo Power sub cards ... cool but they're all the same.

I always ensure my stuff matches. In this regard I am mainly referring to the Nintendo seal of quality. The box, manual, and cart must match. There are three different seals out there.

I also only collect the most recent rom revision of a game.

Good tip. This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for as I mix and match. What are the details on the three seals? Another example is the black box games. I want to collect all five-screw carts, but I don't like the pull tab boxes as much as the regular ones. Thats just a preference.

 

[Zing]

The three seals are simply (chronological order):
Round seal
Oval seal with ™
Oval seal with ®

So far in my experience, when a game was reprinted with a newer seal, the box and manual (inside cover) was also updated.

A lot of Ebay sellers over the years have received the odd request from me to peek inside the cover of the manual.

 

[sixteen-bit]

That's interesting. I thought the round seal was a PAL thing.

 

[Zing]

That's interesting. I thought the round seal was a PAL thing.

PAL had a different round seal. The seal to which I refer is this:

 

[RadarScope1]

Zing, are there very many examples of updated ROMs in later printings? I've never heard much about this.

 

[ElTopo]

21 years in the making and I finally fucking beat Tyson. Best emulator for the job was puNES. And I did not use save states.

I feel like I can finally close a chapter of my oldschool gaming past.

 

[Zing]

Zing, are there very many examples of updated ROMs in later printings? I've never heard much about this.

Yes. A few examples:

Zelda
Punch out
Dragon Warrior
Castlevania

The list is rather long. If you find a list of rom dumps, anything higher than PRG0 has been updated. Most games only get one revision (PRG1) although there are a few SNES games that had two (e.g. Star Fox). The updates fix programming or text errors. For example, Castlevania fixed a crashing bug and Dragon Warrior cleaned up grammar in the text. Super Mario Bros 3 had many bugs and text errors fixed.

You can detect the rom revision by looking at the rear of the cart. In the label, a two digit number is embossed. If the cart is a later revision, it will also have a letter (A for PRG1, B for PRG2, etc).

 

[entremet]

That Konami artwork is so timeless.

RIP in Peace, Konami.

 

[RadarScope1]

Good info, Zing, thanks. The only obvious ones I knew about were ones where the game had a significant update like Stadium Events Punch Out. Seems like it would be worth having a copy of each ROM version - at least the cart.

As I said, I've been collecting on and off for over 15 years and still didn't know a lot of this stuff.