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Netherlands stops Turkish foreign minister's plane from landing
- Thread starter TVexperto
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Gangster Bastard
Member
I don't think Turkey is seen as a nemesis today, but an outsider yes, which I personally believe is why this issue was controversial even before things started going south in the country.
The two most important member states, France and Germany, had both expressed opposition to a Turkish membership. Most EU citizen have been opposed as well according to the polls.
It has little to do with history. Or with outsidership, plenty of EU members come from formerly controverisial or adversarial backgrounds to EU countries. That is not a problem at all.
Denying genocide, oppressing citizens, denying human rights, and occupying Cyprus are some of the major roadblocks as to why Turkey's EU entry are raising concerns throughout EU citizenship.
BrassDragon
Member
Mayor of Rotterdam accuses the Turkish consul of lying to him and actively organizing the event / protests despite earlier assurances. He also said the Turks sent different convoys into the city to avoid police efforts to halt the Minister's car.
As for the comparison of the Dutch measures to Nazi-Germany, he said: "They forget that I'm the Mayor of a city that was thoroughly bombed by the nazis."
Main Dutch news channel has noted that the protesters were under pre-arranged instructions not to engage with media and that many wore the same pro-Erdoğan sticker on their clothing.
As for the comparison of the Dutch measures to Nazi-Germany, he said: "They forget that I'm the Mayor of a city that was thoroughly bombed by the nazis."
Main Dutch news channel has noted that the protesters were under pre-arranged instructions not to engage with media and that many wore the same pro-Erdoğan sticker on their clothing.
Iam also a Dutch guy in Berlin.
I was told there were around 300 protesters outside the embassy but nothing happened.
In the coming days Erdogan will scream some ugly things to the Netherlands and that will be it. By then he's probably busy insulting other countries.
On the other hand, the escalation of this evening is probably going to play a huge part in the dutch elections.
SolidusDave
Member
Well, with that reaction it doesn't look like they even need to hold rallies for the non-integrated fuckups part of EU's Turkish population.
He will get his votes just fine. And best of all, his supporters here don't even have to deal with the consequences (unless they love his version of Turkey so much, they want to move there,
).
He will get his votes just fine. And best of all, his supporters here don't even have to deal with the consequences (unless they love his version of Turkey so much, they want to move there,
yes please
That's fine and all, but every time Erdogan calls them out they come out in droves waving the Turkish flag and yet they are the citizens of the Netherlands?
He may have just won the elections due to sane people suddenly changing their minds. He could easily get a majority if this shit continues in the next two days.
CadetMahoney
Member
Pretty much.
Funyarinpa
Member
It's in times like this that I wish I wasn't Turkish.
I still don't think this will make PVV the largest party. Even if it does, we'll have new elections within a month or two.
Also, I'm no PVV voter, but seeing Dutch citzens waving Turkish flags in support of Erdogan makes me want to book them a one-way ticket to Istanbul. I'm pretty sure that will be the consensus of a lot of voters leading up to the 15th.
It is weird seeing dutch citizens waving the Turkish flag..why are they doing this? You don't live there at all, you have everything here,work,friends a good life, yes your heritage from turkey but who have come here over 30+ years ago who have integrated in the netherlands but that doesn't make you a citizen of turkey, you where born here you are a dutch citizen with the same values everyone has. There all dutch citizens i cannot phantom how people can get behind a foreign dictator.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Rutte also profits from all of this, probably even more than Wilders. Why do you think things escalated?
I never understood it as well, but this is Gaf and it's still early. There's bound to be a defense Force, who are going to try to spin and rationalize what you just said.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
Aside from erdogan and how this all went down.
Remember when Wilders was banned from Engeland? All Dutch politicians were outraged. Wilders called it weak and undemocratic.
Oh the irony.
Remember when Wilders was banned from Engeland? All Dutch politicians were outraged. Wilders called it weak and undemocratic.
Oh the irony.
It's all about islam.
What I find amazing is when 3 or 4. generation turks tell me how awful my country and government is when compared to turkey and glorious Erdogan..then why the fuck don't you move to turkey then..if it's so awesome there?
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Turkish people are quite paranoid. They think that no one wants the Turks to advance or grow in power. They also feel that Turks are hated by everyone.
Mix that with a high dosis of nationalism thanks to Ataturk and now you know why Turkish people are like this.
Source: I am Turkish and I live in the Netherlands.
gutter_trash
Banned
this is all part of Russia+Turkey's plan
Russia and Turkey are partnering up and playing everyone for fools.... Trump is the biggest fool of them all and he will allow Putin and Edrogan get away with it.
It became clear to me today. This if is all shit to stir up divisions and stoke Far-Right anti-EU parties across Europe.
Edrogan is an empirialist.
Putin is an empiralist
both have struck a deal to destablize the EU and take advantage of the Chaos.
Putin will move more in Ukraine and Baltic states then Poland.
Edrogan will anex part of Syria and start moving to take back past Ottoman territories; former Yogoslavia, Greece, Cyprus. you name it.
it will be World War III and Trump will bat a blind eye to it and let it happen
Russia and Turkey are partnering up and playing everyone for fools.... Trump is the biggest fool of them all and he will allow Putin and Edrogan get away with it.
It became clear to me today. This if is all shit to stir up divisions and stoke Far-Right anti-EU parties across Europe.
Edrogan is an empirialist.
Putin is an empiralist
both have struck a deal to destablize the EU and take advantage of the Chaos.
Putin will move more in Ukraine and Baltic states then Poland.
Edrogan will anex part of Syria and start moving to take back past Ottoman territories; former Yogoslavia, Greece, Cyprus. you name it.
it will be World War III and Trump will bat a blind eye to it and let it happen
Yes 4th generation of dutch turks really don't know what the hell there doing. You live here, you have everything here and saying this is all bad? Like the netherlands is bad? Hell no we are still one of the most happiest country's to grow up, yes we have issues like everyone else has but saying Erdogan is great? Gimme a goddamn break, he is a dictator and dictators want more power look on what he has done and continuous to be doing, fuck he even was wants the death sentence back for example. He makes it even worse and people being brainwashed in turkey.
Non of this is in the netherlands and yet these dutch citizens are being brainwashed by something that is not there country..it is fucking weird man, it is so fucking weird how this is a thing.
Do you think the minister should have been allowed to spreak in public?
Caayn
Member
I share this train of thought. I've even expressed it a few times but that apparently makes you a racist...
Hahaha this is true. I go to a bike shop where an old Turkish man works, always cool, always honest but I also come out of there with a huge wtf in my face whenever politics come up. But he's old and that doesn't bother me at all. The younger generation with such views is what seems to be a problem and usually comes to a confrontation whenever some political leader comes around.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I fail to see why this give him the right to start shit in EU countries. If he and his followers want to hold political rallies do it in Turkey. What Turkey is doing is not normal. You don't have other countries do the same thing. I do not see why we should care about the turkish referendum. Erdogan is a dictator now and he will be the same after the referendum no matter the result
Turkey was supposed to be the role model for modern islamic democracies 10 years ago. Now look where we are
That whole Erdoğan case is making me sad and worried as a Greek living in Greece.
He is holding his own country back, if not having them take steps backwards, and people fail to notice. I fear that his mistakes will have long and lasting repercussions for many innocent people, Turks or not.
And the saddest thing is that the world could benefit from a democratic Turkey that promotes peace, respects their citizens beliefs and respects the human rights. Because this is what Turkey can become, they have the people and the potential of being a pylon of stability in the region and not the regional bully they are now.
And, as far as i can tell, even with all their problems, it might be the best muslim country a non muslim could live and prosper.
Lastly, i can understand Turkey's grievances with EU because it appears that Brussels really want a special partnership relation with them than a full membership.
He is holding his own country back, if not having them take steps backwards, and people fail to notice. I fear that his mistakes will have long and lasting repercussions for many innocent people, Turks or not.
And the saddest thing is that the world could benefit from a democratic Turkey that promotes peace, respects their citizens beliefs and respects the human rights. Because this is what Turkey can become, they have the people and the potential of being a pylon of stability in the region and not the regional bully they are now.
And, as far as i can tell, even with all their problems, it might be the best muslim country a non muslim could live and prosper.
Lastly, i can understand Turkey's grievances with EU because it appears that Brussels really want a special partnership relation with them than a full membership.
Then don't be one. If you're truly from Anatolian heartlands, then you're either Greek, Armenian, Jew, Pontic, Turkmen or Kurd. Go back being one. Or just be simply Anatolian. What has ruined Turkey is the forced assimilation. You can't unite people that have nothing in common under one roof. And when you force them to, they'll unite under the worst thing possible: Religion. And that is the main reason why likes of Erdogan is in power right now.
This is basically what also happened in Ukraine, btw. Using the local ethnic minority as cattle to propagate your own agenda. It's a lose-lose situation in which you have to decide to sacrifice your values (by not letting them speak) and giving them the "right" to call you out as a moral hypocrite or to sacrifice your politcal stability by giving them that inch to speak up.
Erdogans AKP is basically Russia's Unity Party - same methods, like paying protestors and getting them on busses and giving them orders as to not to speak to the wrong media outlets. I'm pretty sure those Turkish protestors were very much allowed to speak to RT or Sputnik or something like that. This gag order applies only to certain media.
I'm quite into the history of the policies on foreigners / immigrants in Germany, because I'm writing a term paper about it. @Jay Sosa, I might share some thoughts on that schizophrenic view of some Turks in Netherlands and Germany:
Basically, it's a psychological issue. When you emigrate, you have basically two options (in simplistic terms, it's more of a scale, not a binary option): you assimilate yourself and give up your former nation/identity or you integrate and keep everything from your old homeland and try to live with it in your new country. Furthermore, when you try to integrate / assimilate and face some resistance like overt racism or job discrimination, there is the path to blame it on the host country and their people.
And psychologically, you also have to decide on your identity. Not many people have to do that, they just live by whatever they learned during their lives and since it's their country of birth, most of the time, nothing happens to challenge that identity. Except when you're part of a minority like vegetarians or homosexuals. In the case of migrants, you have to contruct your own identity, basically. So those Turks get told by their parents, who are probably not 100% integrated most of the time, about how their country is great and how important their blood is. Many conservative / less-educated people went to Europe for the work exchange program in the 70s so their view will not change much over time. And since parents basically always have the last word in Turkish culture, children will be influenced by that.
There is also the path to see yourself as an international citizen and I suppose most (highly) educated Turks do that. They are not aroused by blood and soil mentality and about the illusion of a great Turkish Ottoman Empire. But those people are definitely the minority in Germany or the Netherlands.
So it's a complex issue which is mixed by (failed) policy decisions in the past and Erdogan's application of Putin's strategy - arousing an "oppressed" minority to the point of destabilization. Those minorities are easy targets for propaganda, especially if they're not well off in comparison to the rest of the country.
Personally, I would let those Turks speak in their own consulate, but forbid them to go anywhere else. As long as German / Dutch politicians are not scrambling to go to Turkey to do the same thing, Erdogan should not be allowed to do that. He can buy flight tickets for his beloved supporters, if he really wants to address them.
Erdogans AKP is basically Russia's Unity Party - same methods, like paying protestors and getting them on busses and giving them orders as to not to speak to the wrong media outlets. I'm pretty sure those Turkish protestors were very much allowed to speak to RT or Sputnik or something like that. This gag order applies only to certain media.
I'm quite into the history of the policies on foreigners / immigrants in Germany, because I'm writing a term paper about it. @Jay Sosa, I might share some thoughts on that schizophrenic view of some Turks in Netherlands and Germany:
Basically, it's a psychological issue. When you emigrate, you have basically two options (in simplistic terms, it's more of a scale, not a binary option): you assimilate yourself and give up your former nation/identity or you integrate and keep everything from your old homeland and try to live with it in your new country. Furthermore, when you try to integrate / assimilate and face some resistance like overt racism or job discrimination, there is the path to blame it on the host country and their people.
And psychologically, you also have to decide on your identity. Not many people have to do that, they just live by whatever they learned during their lives and since it's their country of birth, most of the time, nothing happens to challenge that identity. Except when you're part of a minority like vegetarians or homosexuals. In the case of migrants, you have to contruct your own identity, basically. So those Turks get told by their parents, who are probably not 100% integrated most of the time, about how their country is great and how important their blood is. Many conservative / less-educated people went to Europe for the work exchange program in the 70s so their view will not change much over time. And since parents basically always have the last word in Turkish culture, children will be influenced by that.
There is also the path to see yourself as an international citizen and I suppose most (highly) educated Turks do that. They are not aroused by blood and soil mentality and about the illusion of a great Turkish Ottoman Empire. But those people are definitely the minority in Germany or the Netherlands.
So it's a complex issue which is mixed by (failed) policy decisions in the past and Erdogan's application of Putin's strategy - arousing an "oppressed" minority to the point of destabilization. Those minorities are easy targets for propaganda, especially if they're not well off in comparison to the rest of the country.
Personally, I would let those Turks speak in their own consulate, but forbid them to go anywhere else. As long as German / Dutch politicians are not scrambling to go to Turkey to do the same thing, Erdogan should not be allowed to do that. He can buy flight tickets for his beloved supporters, if he really wants to address them.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
So is this a blatant attempt to get Wilders and the far right into power?
No, but it does gain momentum for the elections..thank god we have a huge safety net. I explained it earlier. We have party's by the dozen to choose from.
But we need a coalition to work together to get a majority of seats..that is 75 to be exact. Still Wilders will not in power at all. If party's can't seem to agree with each other no government will be formed, we have to do a re-election again.
In any case, I find it appalling that people are going out to peotest with Turkish flags. Are you Dutch or not? Shameful. If those dumbasses just cost us the election so help me god.
There needs to be a real push for common dutch identity. We need to remove the words 'allochtoon' from our vocabulary. If you have a Dutch citizenship and you live there, you are no less Dutch than the other person and you have the same responsibility. The term encourages separation.
The only solace i get from this situation is that hopefully it makes Rutte look strong.
There needs to be a real push for common dutch identity. We need to remove the words 'allochtoon' from our vocabulary. If you have a Dutch citizenship and you live there, you are no less Dutch than the other person and you have the same responsibility. The term encourages separation.
The only solace i get from this situation is that hopefully it makes Rutte look strong.
So now this happened
https://twitter.com/obk/status/840859123692511232
(Dutch consulate's flag got switched with the Turkish one overnight)
https://twitter.com/obk/status/840859123692511232
(Dutch consulate's flag got switched with the Turkish one overnight)
Well, he is currently not in Turkey anyway and isn't allowed to enter the country, so....
Uhhh.
jakonovski
Member
Yep, this is what gives Erdogans of the world the leverage. European identity is still way too much bound up in ethnicity.
So now this happened
https://twitter.com/obk/status/840859123692511232
(Dutch consulate's flag got switched with the Turkish one overnight)
Oh man, why do we have to deal with this kind of child's play anyway...
Funyarinpa
Member
The trouble with that philosophy is that it diminishes the cultures and presence of ethnic minorities. Just like in Turkey, and now it's turned into a grotesque orgy of nationalism and jihadism over everything else.
I really can't find it in me to criticize most Turkish stereotypes formed in Europe in the wake of shit like this.
She is the Chancellor of Germany, she can prevent large scale rallies of foreign nations or prevent foreign minister and politicians from coming if she wanted to. But she doesn't want to risk her Syrians for Turks refugee swap deal or risk pissing off Turkish German voters. What is crazy is these pro-Turkish rallies in Netherlands are only helping Geert who is on the precipice of victory.
YourMaster
Member
This was the plan. The government said they would prefer them not to hold a political rally in the Netherlands, but they weren't going to actually stop it. That changed when they were calling for protests (read: riots) outside of the consulate, which naturally cannot be allowed.
The real problem with cases like this, is that the authorities still do not have an effective system to arrest large groups of people when protests turn to riots. Protesting with a Turkish flag - not good, but legal - is one thing, but throwing stones is crossing the line and should get you either in jail straight away or at least booked with your name written down and punished at a later time.
jakonovski
Member
I can't parse this. First you lament the diminishing of minority culture and then you go full diminishist. I mean what am I supposed to do about that? You're being entirely self-contained.
If we look at what's happening in the Netherlands right now, there's probably good reason for why there's still a differentiation being made despite both Dutch-Dutch and Turk-Dutch having the same citizenship. Looks like a lot of people feel more Turkish.
The thing is Erdogan himself is steering up the distinction. He wants foreign Turks to remain Turkish.
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-748070.html
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-748070.html
But how can she prevent it? Some finger-waving magic? Germany doesn't work like Russia or Turkey. This whole issue was, btw, fueled by the demonstration bans set into motion in Germany. Without her even lifting a finger.
What I really don't want her to do is to give into the machismo pattern of trolling from Trump, Erdogan and Putin. Escalation is what they want, so we shouldn't give it to them.
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