Netherlands stops Turkish foreign minister's plane from landing

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Joni said:
It is time for the EU to take a stance, Turkey and its supporters are no allies.
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That's really bad idea. Turkey is in really delicate situation right now. AKP has crippled the army after the coup attempt, even the smallest spark would cause a big explosion. Kurds are ready to secede anytime, there is a dangeours islamic terror organization just near the border, economy is fucked up and unemployment is record high and Turkey has already a gigantic enemy, Russia. If things go down, Turkey wouldn't be another Syria, it would just cease to exist.

Instead of taking a hostile stance, EU should form an alliance with Turkish opposition to do whatever it takes to remove Erdogan and friends from power and from earth if possible. From the looks of things they have already been doing this exact thing.
 
Nerazar said:
But how can she prevent it? Some finger-waving magic? Germany doesn't work like Russia or Turkey. This whole issue was, btw, fueled by the demonstration bans set into motion in Germany. Without her even lifting a finger.

What I really don't want her to do is to give into the machismo pattern of trolling from Trump, Erdogan and Putin. Escalation is what they want, so we shouldn't give it to them.
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She's the chancellor, the head of the government. The government can decide to ban foreign politicians from entering or campaigning. The Federal Constitutional Court made this pretty clear on Friday.
 
Shiggy said:
She's the chancellor, the head of the government. The government can decide to ban foreign politicians from entering or campaigning. The Federal Constitutional Court made this pretty clear on Friday.
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But then she would dig a grave for the whole "free speech" argument. They would also spin it to be a Trumpian approach to selectively discriminate against Muslims and as further proof that every Turk in Germany is being repressed.
 
Nerazar said:
But then she would dig a grave for the whole "free speech" argument. They would also spin it to be a Trumpian approach to selectively discriminate against Muslims and as further proof that every Turk in Germany is being repressed.
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Yeah, either way we lose. If we let them speak here, they'll just further divide the Turkish community in Germany.

Wish all the dumb and ignorant people hailing Erdogan would just go back to Turkey. The smart ones can stay.
 
Shiggy said:
If we look at what's happening in the Netherlands right now, there's probably good reason for why there's still a differentiation being made despite both Dutch-Dutch and Turk-Dutch having the same citizenship. Looks like a lot of people feel more Turkish.
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We are saying this is the result of allowing the distinction to exist and openly supporting it even in government. These Turkish protestors would be a lot fewer if the distinction didn't exist. Look at America, everyone is American regardless if race or ethnicity. Once you get your citizenship, you are an American an no one has the right to call you anything else.
We have to fully embrace progressivism, and equality. The notion of 'allochtoon' is poisonous, and just as it harmed minorities in the netherlands, it will harm the whole of the netherlands over time (as it is doing right now).
 
jakonovski said:
I can't parse this. First you lament the diminishing of minority culture and then you go full diminishist. I mean what am I supposed to do about that? You're being entirely self-contained.
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What I meant was that it doesn't always work to establish a national identity detached from ethnicity.

I recognize that I'm wrong about the stereotype stuff, in that I recognize on a rational level how such a stereotype is inaccurate and wrong, but that's just how I feel when it comes to being impacted by Erdoğan's philosophy everyday, because I know firsthand how much harm such a mindset can bring when it rules a country.

Hope I'm making more sense now.
 
Nerazar said:
But then she would dig a grave for the whole "free speech" argument. They would also spin it to be a Trumpian approach to selectively discriminate against Muslims and as further proof that every Turk in Germany is being repressed.
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I don't think a government official of a facist regime rallying for a concentration of power in a foreign country falls under freedom of speech. But then again I am german, so I might have a different view of things.

In fact, as a german, I think that we have an obligation to not let a facist dictator politically rally for concentration of power in our country.
 
Shiggy said:
Yeah, either way we lose. If we let them speak here, they'll just further divide the Turkish community in Germany.

Wish all the dumb and ignorant people hailing Erdogan would just go back to Turkey. The smart ones can stay.
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The only solution to this issue would take years to really come to fruition. Destroying stuff does not take a lot of time. Building trust on the other hand... well, that's work of a lifetime for everybody involved.

I also read about the Turkish reactions to that: just as predicted. They're already spinning it into "the EU has no respect for human rights". Coming from the country which wants to reintroduce the death sentence. Great.

No, I still believe that this situation must be solved in a way which does not give Turkey everything they want. Just force them to play by the rules, having them fill in applications for every action they want to do and see what happens. If they lie about stuff (which they already did), then there is no way but to prohibit those rallies. And if they want to have rallies *in* their consulate, they can gather like 50-100 people there to talk to them. But no screenings outside etc.

Still - this very much has the handwriting of Putin on it. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened in the Baltic states this year. Or even Germany, if I were him. He already had his "Our Lisa"-moment.
 
Veidt said:
We are saying this is the result of allowing the distinction to exist and openly supporting it even in government. These Turkish protestors would be a lot fewer if the distinction didn't exist. Look at America, everyone is American regardless if race or ethnicity. Once you get your citizenship, you are an American an no one has the right to call you anything else.
We have to fully embrace progressivism, and equality. The notion of 'allochtoon' is poisonous, and just as it harmed minorities in the netherlands, it will harm the whole of the netherlands over time (as it is doing right now).
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It's actually the complete opposite. The policy to not see any difference between natives and people with a foreign background is what has created this mess. If you act like everybody is the same you're not having policies in place to make that happen.
What you're saying about the US is very true, and they don't get enough credit, for how thorough they are in nation-building and integrating new citizens. They have a strong cultural identity and expect people to become part of that and be proud of it.

When Turks were brought into the Netherlands for cheap labor they were specifically exempt for having to integrate with the idea that they would go back after a little while. When that idea changed the policy should have adapted: A program should have been put in place to give people the foundation to succeed in the Netherlands, that included not only language but also cultural values, they had to take part in before they were allowed to bring over a Turkish partner and start a permanent live here.
We failed on two fronts - people not wanting to integrate we did not care about and let them, and people who wanted to integrate we had nothing to offer.

And still today, there are many people with foreign backgrounds with a mentality that will only ever set them up for failure and/or crime, and even poor health. When you say 'everybody is dutch' that doesn't make it so. You need policies to transform these people into actual dutch citizens, and actually forcing them to make a choice between the country they live in and the country of their ancestors is an important first step. Creating programs that impart western values like respect for women, gay people and a desire to take constructive part in community, in addition to western work ethic would be a next step. You could link these programs to social programs to have people take part in them, so that the also large group of foreigners that simply work aren't bothered by it.
 
Nokterian said:
It is weird seeing dutch citizens waving the Turkish flag..why are they doing this? You don't live there at all, you have everything here,work,friends a good life, yes your heritage from turkey but who have come here over 30+ years ago who have integrated in the netherlands but that doesn't make you a citizen of turkey, you where born here you are a dutch citizen with the same values everyone has. There all dutch citizens i cannot phantom how people can get behind a foreign dictator.
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Because in Holland a lot of people dont integrate well. Some cultures integrate better then others. For example Indonesians integrated much better then people originally form Turkey or Marroco.

Woman from Marocco and Turkey integrate very well. Better then the man. So maybe it has something to do with macho culture.

Also Dutch are not such a proud people of their nation perce. Not as strongly as Americans. People giggle when singing the national anthem. So if the nation you come to live in is not proud then its less likely you as a newcomer get that too.
 
18-Volt said:
That's really bad idea. Turkey is in really delicate situation right now. AKP has crippled the army after the coup attempt, even the smallest spark would cause a big explosion. Kurds are ready to secede anytime, there is a dangeours islamic terror organization just near the border, economy is fucked up and unemployment is record high and Turkey has already a gigantic enemy, Russia. If things go down, Turkey wouldn't be another Syria, it would just cease to exist.

Instead of taking a hostile stance, EU should form an alliance with Turkish opposition to do whatever it takes to remove Erdogan and friends from power and from earth if possible. From the looks of things they have already been doing this exact thing.
Click to expand...

Erdogan is currently an enormous enemy, collaborating with Russia and spreading problems into Europe, It would be good to work with the opposition, that is also taking a stance. But the wishy-washy approach of letting Erdogan do what he wants and treating him as an ally, is not working with his current way of working.
 
Always-honest said:
I feel so sorry for progressive Turks. This man will take your country 100 years back or more.
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Imagine having worked so hard abroad and investing into Turkey everything you have.. Ugh.

There is nothing in this world that is more dangerous than Putin + Erdogan. These two maniacs are out to destabilize every country for their gain. They're corrupt AF and have no remorse for anyone's lives.

Romney was right all along...
 
AFCA said:
I dont agree with you on that. He is not spreading lies (like other fascist and dictators), but real concerns of a part of the population.
On the other hand, his solutions are really radical and are in conflict with the dutch Constitution.

Of course everyone is free to agree or disagree with him but comparing him to a dictator like Erdogan is nonsense.
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He was convicted of inciting racial hatred.

AFCA said:
He shared a photoshoped picture with the comment:

Pechtold (left wing politician) demonstrates with HAMAS terrorist. (which was true).
Is this the next step? (photoshoped photo)

It was a disgusting photo but I wouldn't call that spreading lies.
https://www.powned.tv/artikel/geert-wilders-verspreidt-nepnieuws
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1341812

It was very much spreading lies.
 
Funyarinpa said:
What I meant was that it doesn't always work to establish a national identity detached from ethnicity.

I recognize that I'm wrong about the stereotype stuff, in that I recognize on a rational level how such a stereotype is inaccurate and wrong, but that's just how I feel when it comes to being impacted by Erdoğan's philosophy everyday, because I know firsthand how much harm such a mindset can bring when it rules a country.

Hope I'm making more sense now.
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Still not sure, but I'll agree with you that nothing is foolproof.
 
Joni said:
Erdogan is currently an enormous enemy, collaborating with Russia and spreading problems into Europe, It would be good to work with the opposition, that is also taking a stance. But the wishy-washy approach of letting Erdogan do what he wants and treating him as an ally, is not working with his current way of working.
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Twisting a bit arnt you? Turkey and Saudi Arabia dont see eye to eye on USA funding certain terrorist groups who openly want to destroy Turkey.
Wishy washy lol.
 
nephilimdj said:
Twisting a bit arnt you? Turkey and Saudi Arabia dont see eye to eye on USA funding certain terrorist groups who openly want to destroy Turkey.
Wishy washy lol.
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What does the United States have to do with it? The European Union on one hands wants/needs to treat Turkey as a solid reliable partner but on the other hand we see him attack almost every European country, enticing riots against so-called Gulenists (aka Turks that don't like him) which should warrant a way stronger response. The United States can go fuck itself with its current approach to the EU.
 
I wonder if this whole debacle will work on Wilders' favor in the upcoming election? Last thing the world needs is another racist fuck.
 
Boozeroony said:
Rutte's firm response kinda neutralized the electoral gain Wilders could get from this situation.
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I would say it's equal. Strong response but shows people there is that side in their country, fake exaggerated or not. Still stokes fear unfortunately.
 
We (EU) should just leave Turkey alone. There's nothing positive we can do and we need them to keep the migrants out. But we definitely cant give them visa free travel either.
 
Xando said:
Yup. This benefitted Rutte much more than it did Wilders
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This whole situation is a political game, Rutte had no choice to act firm or Wilders would have benefitted from this big time. Wasn't it Wilders who called back parliament from vacation to prevent the Turkish ministers entering in the first place? Erdoğan and friends are trying to pick a fight with a European country to show it's voters base (especially the nationalistic side) how bad and xenophobic the Europeans are. Then act like a victim, take a tough stand and ultimately be seen as somebody who protects the rights of the "oppressed". Erdoğan does this all the time when there is something to vote for, he always wants to paint himself in a corner where he is the victim.
 
I don't think this would have happened if there were no elections around the corner. Rutte is being strict because he knows that will help him big time on Wednesday, or else people would have flocked towards Wilders.

Glad he did it though. About time our government grew a spine.
 
Ohh, the irony the Turkish protestors are complaining that their democratic rights have been violated.

..Meanwhile in South East Turkey.

You can't make this shit up.
 
GAMEPROFF said:
I have a feeling I know it already, but whats the problem with these? Are these the dutch Breitbart?
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I have no idea what for kind of webesite Breitbart is.
But I can tell you what geenstijl is. It is a dutch news and entertainment website/blog and largest dutch newspaper is their main shareholder.
Geenstijl is known for their fierce and provocative approach but are not associated with a political movement. Although I wouldn't call them objective (but to be honest I think its an illusion to even think that a news site can be 100% objective)

The link was just an example, allot of news sites reported it.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/politiek/d...wie-stond-pechtold-op-het-malieveld~a4460789/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193355807477555&set=ecnf.100004094101433&type=3&theater

But lets get back on-toppic ;)
 
AFCA said:
I have no idea what for kind of webesite Breitbart is.
But I can tell you what geenstijl is. It is a dutch news and entertainment website/blog and largest dutch newspaper is their main shareholder.
Geenstijl is known for their fierce and provocative approach but are not associated with a political movement. Although I would call them objective (but to be honest I think its an illusion to even think that a news site can be 100% objective)

The link was just an example, allot of news sites reported it.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/politiek/d...wie-stond-pechtold-op-het-malieveld~a4460789/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193355807477555&set=ecnf.100004094101433&type=3&theater
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They're not associated with a political movement? :lol

Sure... Keep telling that to yourself. That's why its campaign for the Ukraine referendum (GeenPeil) spawned 3 right wing parties this election, one of which is headed by a former "reporter" of GeenStijl.
 
Frustrated_me said:
Imagine having worked so hard abroad and investing into Turkey everything you have.. Ugh.

There is nothing in this world that is more dangerous than Putin + Erdogan. These two maniacs are out to destabilize every country for their gain. They're corrupt AF and have no remorse for anyone's lives.

Romney was right all along...
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Again, for the millionth time, Matt Romney visited Russia on the eve of the election to ensure funding for his real estate deals, but somehow that family gets a pass because people assume Romney's words were genuine and not Rubio-esque weasel words. Every puff piece from the Daily Caller and Federalist that excoriates Obama on this issue assumes that Romney would have been more proactive and damaging to the Russian economy than Obama was, and ironically those same outlets are now pro-Trump Russia stans.
 
AFCA said:
I have no idea what for kind of webesite Breitbart is.
But I can tell you what geenstijl is. It is a dutch news and entertainment website/blog and largest dutch newspaper is their main shareholder.
Geenstijl is known for their fierce and provocative approach but are not associated with a political movement. Although I would call them objective (but to be honest I think its an illusion to even think that a news site can be 100% objective)

The link was just an example, allot of news sites reported it.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/politiek/d...wie-stond-pechtold-op-het-malieveld~a4460789/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193355807477555&set=ecnf.100004094101433&type=3&theater

But lets get back on-toppic ;)
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lol http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2017/03/het_beste_idee_van_nederland.html
 
17308980_959258684211555_4786998398216439201_n.jpg


Poor orange. :P
 
Starting to heat up
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39248646

Speaking at an awards ceremony in Istanbul on Sunday, Mr Erdogan said of the Netherlands: "They will certainly pay the price, and also learn what diplomacy is."

"The West has clearly shown its true face in the last couple of days. What we have seen... is a clear manifestations of Islamophobia.

"I have said that I had thought that Nazism was over, but that I was wrong. Nazism is alive in the West," he said.

Speaking in Metz, Mr Cavusoglu described the Netherlands as the "capital of fascism".

He said of the Dutch ambassador, who is on leave: "We are saying that there is no need to come back to Turkey. He can't come, he can't enter."
 
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