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[luka]

The arcade monitor filter Capcom used in Final Fight on PSN/XBLA was phenomenal.

 

[danmaku]

But that is the point! It DOES work, as clearly seen.

No, it doesn't. The sprites still look wonky and deformed, especially Yoshi, it's disgusting. And those are probably the best examples they had, since they were chosen to show off the filter. It's pointless work, you can't create detail out of nowhere. If you want to play old games on HD tvs, redraw the graphics or try to emulate a CRT monitor.

 

[SmokyDave]

Hideous. People should instead be talking about the new MAME D3D9 HLSL filter, now part of official MAME.

Oh my. That looks delicious.

 

[mrgone]

The arcade monitor filter Capcom used in Final Fight on PSN/XBLA was phenomenal.

It's pretty handily the best I've seen for HD upscaling (well, until I'd seen that D3D9 HLSL screen). Really beats the shit out of anything else people have been using for arcade ports on consoles, at the very least

 

[orioto]

That's funny how, i think, pixel art was intented to be appreciated in a smooth non sharp way in the days, and it's cool to try to find that back i think cause that was the way they were designed for.

Now, you have a whole new aesthetic of pixel art loving, who loves the little sharp and precise pixels, but that's a new thing. I love that actually but i don't specially like primitive pixel art, like doing nes pixel art on purpose. Anyway

 

[Risk Breaker]

I like it.

 

[Haunted]

I don't really see the big/revolutionary difference to existing 2x Super Sai or Eagle or whatever these filters emulators use are called.


I generally prefer the original look, but I have played the occasional game with one of these filters when the end result was agreeable (also depends on the game).

 

[radioheadrule83]

I can't see the images in work... is this like those super eagle filters or whatever in snes9x?

 

[DDayton]

And you gotta be the equivalent of people who burn books on the streets in the medieval, if you are angered by this. I hope that a lot of games will use this, and I also hope that there will be an "I want to feel good about myself, let me switch it back to the older and worse look" option, even with games that were clearly designed to take advantage of this style

Er... who are the "people who burn books on the streets in the medieval", exactly? The medieval period wasn't exactly filled with book burners, aside from the looters and pillagers... and, assuming your point is that angry traditionalists attack modern technology (and Gutenberg is just barely fitting into the medieval period, really), I'd think the comparison would fall flat. Any complaints against printed books versus handwritten ones would deal with the medium or transmission, not the message/content itself... our complaints have nothing to do with the technology, but rather with the mangling of the content.

We dislike filters not due to a hatred of filters themselves (I doubt any of us would object to resized and refiltered photos), but due to the mangling of the pixel art. It's a transition from a highly defined image into a blurry mess. If the filter worked properly and retained all of the original detail, we'd be happy -- we'd be getting the original graphics scaled up into a new image.

Of course, now you have to deal with the two sides of the equation: those who prefer keeping the original games intact, and those who would essentially prefer graphical remakes. I'm all for keeping the games intact -- and, again, perhaps everyone else had lousy CRT displays, but the "heavy scanline and blur" filters make the images look far less like the originals... to me.

 

[V_Arnold]

No, it doesn't. The sprites still look wonky and deformed, especially Yoshi, it's disgusting. And those are probably the best examples they had, since they were chosen to show off the filter. It's pointless work, you can't create detail out of nowhere. If you want to play old games on HD tvs, redraw the graphics or try to emulate a CRT monitor.

Dude, it is NOT detail out of nowhere. I am pretty sure that if you just stop for a moment and think about what you are seeing, then you will realize that all this does is creating curvy, perfectly scalable forms out of blocky, purely pixel-based, badly scalable base.

It is not trying to create detail out of nowhere. Where did you get that?

 

[Raistlin]

I didn't read the corresponding article beyond the first few sentences (I'll read it tomorrow), but from a high level I question how 'novel' this is.

As a matter fact, the first time I saw a similar concept is where i still think this has potential - video scaling. Years ago a company demoed a proof-of-concept at either CES or CEDIA for computing vectors to handle video upscaling. The supposed results were quite impressive but it was on very specific test material iirc.

I should try to see if I can find an article on it. I wonder what happened to the tech and the company? Results weren't predictable enough on the general case? Computational complexity made real-time consumer release unrealistic? Simply ran out of funding?

 

[V_Arnold]

Er... who are the "people who burn books on the streets in the medieval", exactly? The medieval period wasn't exactly filled with book burners, aside from the looters and pillagers... and, assuming your point is that angry traditionalists attack modern technology (and Gutenberg is just barely fitting into the medieval period, really), I'd think the comparison would fall flat. Any complaints against printed books versus handwritten ones would deal with the medium or transmission, not the message/content itself... our complaints have nothing to do with the technology, but rather with the mangling of the content.

I am the king of bad analogies, so yeah. But you got the point after all, so...

We dislike filters not due to a hatred of filters themselves (I doubt any of us would object to resized and refiltered photos), but due to the mangling of the pixel art. It's a transition from a highly defined image into a blurry mess. If the filter worked properly and retained all of the original detail, we'd be happy -- we'd be getting the original graphics scaled up into a new image.

Of course, now you have to deal with the two sides of the equation: those who prefer keeping the original games intact, and those who would essentially prefer graphical remakes. I'm all for keeping the games intact -- and, again, perhaps everyone else had lousy CRT displays, but the "heavy scanline and blur" filters make the images look far less like the originals... to me.

Well, the way I see it, this thing is not a "filter" in a traditional way. One pixel alone gets a result of a "size one" circle. Pixels near each other create curved lines - and that is about it. It is perfectly revertable, nothing original data is lost, so it is not only optional, but is of course reversible, and gives you no data loss.

But I will have to repeat myself: I am mostly hyped up by this for the prospect of creating original 2d games using a method similar to this, where you create the assets with the new results kept in mind. Sounds awesome for me that way.

 

[danmaku]

Dude, it is NOT detail out of nowhere. I am pretty sure that if you just stop for a moment and think about what you are seeing, then you will realize that all this does is creating curvy, perfectly scalable forms out of blocky, purely pixel-based, badly scalable base.

It is not trying to create detail out of nowhere. Where did you get that?

Sorry, bad wording on my part. What I mean is that the filter is distorting the original information instead of enhancing it. Toad is obviously a "round" character, but the keyboard in the first picture is not. It's meant to be square, because that's how real keyboards are. The filtered version looks like a kid's toy.

What I see here is a cheap shortcut to do hi-res ports of old games, but that's exactly how it looks: cheap.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

Piece of shit, if your really want to uprez old pixel graphics you need to redraw them again (in bigger pixel art that looks like the original or redraw them so they look like animation).

Theres no easy way for this.

 

[DDayton]

I am the king of bad analogies, so yeah. But you got the point after all, so...

Don't make me send Irish monks after you!

Well, the way I see it, this thing is not a "filter" in a traditional way. One pixel alone gets a result of a "size one" circle. Pixels near each other create curved lines - and that is about it. It is perfectly revertable, nothing original data is lost, so it is not only optional, but is of course reversible, and gives you no data loss.
But I will have to repeat myself: I am mostly hyped up by this for the prospect of creating original 2d games using a method similar to this, where you create the assets with the new results kept in mind. Sounds awesome for me that way.

See, I'm not opposed to using this in new games as a way of creating scaling artwork, assuming that the finished result, well, WORKS -- I'd assume the artists would tweak it until it did, making this a handy tool more than anything else. I mean, the technology is neat, I'm just joining the chorus of those who are protesting against the possibility of it being used to mangle the classics.

(Insert imagery of "HD Mona Lisa" here.)

 

[Tellaerin]

I'm all for keeping the games intact -- and, again, perhaps everyone else had lousy CRT displays, but the "heavy scanline and blur" filters make the images look far less like the originals... to me.

Would you say that the screenshot Tain posted looks like it's been through the kind of heavy scanline and blur filter you're talking about? I'm asking because to me, that looks virtually identical to the image you get from a typical arcade cabinet.

 

[V_Arnold]

Don't make me send Irish monks after you!


See, I'm not opposed to using this in new games as a way of creating scaling artwork, assuming that the finished result, well, WORKS -- I'd assume the artists would tweak it until it did, making this a handy tool more than anything else. I mean, the technology is neat, I'm just joining the chorus of those who are protesting against the possibility of it being used to mangle the classics.

(Insert imagery of "HD Mona Lisa" here.)

And now we agree here. I would never use this even if it was available to "enhance" my experience with SNES classics.

 

[CryptiK]

wait for this to show up on CSI

 

[DDayton]

Would you say that the screenshot Tain posted looks like it's been through the kind of heavy scanline and blur filter you're talking about? I'm asking because to me, that looks virtually identical to the image you get from a typical arcade cabinet.

The scanlines look absurdly overdone -- to me, at least. I do think it's overdone and would prefer it sans artificial changes.

However, it's quite possible I'm overreacting -- I may need to do some comparison shots of my own in the near future. Luckily, I own multiple copies of Metal Slug/2/3...

And now we agree here. I would never use this even if it was available to "enhance" my experience with SNES classics.

(Scratches V_Arnold off the list of "Traitors Up Against the Wall When the 8-Bit Revolution Comes...")

 

[Graphics Horse]

It's the best filter I've seen yet, but it's still wonky and inaccurate.

Yep, Unlikely it can ever be perfect until we have sentient computers.

Now, you have a whole new aesthetic of pixel art loving, who loves the little sharp and precise pixels, but that's a new thing. I love that actually but i don't specially like primitive pixel art, like doing nes pixel art on purpose. Anyway

I'm not sure that's a new thing but it's certainly had a ressurgance. And the Space Invaders sprites are still iconic today, of course.

Vector Graphics were only used for like 10 arcade games, and only used today for things like HUDs so they scale properly.

There's no need to pretend Flash games don't exist. :|

 

[DDayton]

There's no need to pretend Flash games don't exist. :|

I had the impression that there had been a shifting away from entirely vector graphics and a great and greater use of bitmaps in Flash as of late...

 

[KevinCow]

While it doesn't look great, I'd be curious to at least test it out, see what it looks like in motion. Any word on when this will be available to mess around with?

 

[Graphics Horse]

I had the impression that there had been a shifting away from entirely vector graphics and a great and greater use of bitmaps in Flash as of late...

It's better suited to bitmaps than it used to be, but people are still using vectors.

 

[eXistor]

Eww, butchering Pixel art is not my idea of good looking.

 

[DDayton]

It's better suited to bitmaps than it used to be, but people are still using vectors.

I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but yeah, Flash is the home of vector-mation.

I need to add some more stuff to my Chumby.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but yeah, Flash is the home of vector-mation.

I need to add some more stuff to my Chumby.

When we're all using 8640p monitors someone's going to have to write a filter to upscale those pesky bitmap flash games

 

[DDayton]

When we're all using 8640p monitors someone's going to have to write a filter to upscale those pesky bitmap flash games

Oh, by then perhaps we'll find a way to dump those pesky fixed resolution displays and develop a flat screen, super high resolution, analog display... and our scaling problems may be fixed forever. Heh heh heh.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Dude, it is NOT detail out of nowhere. I am pretty sure that if you just stop for a moment and think about what you are seeing, then you will realize that all this does is creating curvy, perfectly scalable forms out of blocky, purely pixel-based, badly scalable base.

It is not trying to create detail out of nowhere. Where did you get that?

It is, the implied detail is lost. Just look at that Yoshi's snout. What the original art is trying to convey is a smooth gradient from dark to light green, with a white specular highlight. However, due to color and resolution restraints, it wasn't technically possible. Filters such as this one do not respect or recreate the original vision, and what you end up in the end are flat pools of color that look even less like smooth gradient than the original stuff.

 

[PokéKong]

We can all probably agree that this is neither practical for improving old pixely graphics, nor is such a service necessary or desired. But it still looks nifty! You have to admit there would be a novelty factor in trying out an NES and SNES emulator equipped with this and seeing what games it gives a groovy new style to.
It does kinda have a style all its own, it could be used artistically in plenty of other contexts, I rather liked the look of the "help!" and the space invader aesthetically, even though I wouldn't want that done to all my delicious pixel graphics games. Think outside of your gaming bubble for a moment, there are plenty of applications for this, like softening up streaming video distortion and artifacts.
And one of the first questions that came to my mind..... can it uncensor censored hentai...?

 

[g.r.e.]

Kind of want it...as an emulator plug-in.

 

[Glasswork]

As a pixel artist, this just makes me sad and angry.
Why would you do that 8(

 

[JaseC]

It is, the implied detail is lost. Just look at that Yoshi's snout. What the original art is trying to convey is a smooth gradient from dark to light green, with a white specular highlight. However, due to color and resolution restraints, it wasn't technically possible. Filters such as this one do not respect or recreate the original vision, and what you end up in the end are flat pools of color that look even less like smooth gradient than the original stuff.

These filters, in the process of "improving" the pixel art, may create something different than what the artist originally intended, but that's not "creating detail out of nowhere" as the filters use the detail offered by the source art assets.

Edit: Elaborated a bit, but I see you've already replied.

 

[rezuth]

Why did they not include super eagle? I remember that filter being pretty good.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

But that isn't creating detail out of nowhere.

Yeah, I worded that badly. It's not trying to create detail out of nowhere, it would be great if it did and was successful in that. Instead, it destroys what little detail is already there.

 

[test_account]

Cool, but i prefer the original pixelated graphics the best

 

[JaseC]

Yeah, I worded that badly. It's not trying to create detail out of nowhere, it would be great if it did and was successful in that. Instead, it destroys what little detail is already there.

Wording that as "creating detail out of nowhere" was an interesting choice.

Cool, but i prefer the original pixelated graphics the best

It varies game-to-game for me. I don't mind playing something like Super Metroid with these shaders, but with, say, Yoshi's Island I prefer to have the game look as intended.

 

[Walshicus]

Its also distorting the image to match the distortion found on older CRTs that didn't have a flat screen. Look at the edges of the image.

That doesn't sound like a good thing.

The new up-scaling technique is pretty cool - the Toad example works nicely. Not surprised half of GAF is "disgusted" by it though.

As a pixel artist, this just makes me sad and angry.
Why would you do that 8(

The bigger question is, why are you wasting your time with pixel art in the year 2011.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Wording that as "creating detail out of nowhere" was an interesting choice.

I got carried away. However, what all these smoothing algorithms are trying to do basically is to create more detail out of nowhere, more pixels out of huge chunks that once represented pixels on low resolution screens. The problem is they're not smart enough because the rules which govern them don't take into account actual content of the art so that's why things get lost in the process. For such insight you really need cognitive reasoning, it can't be reduced to purely statistical image analysis. That's why human input is crucial in translating low resolution art into high resolution assets, it can't be done automatically and still look good. Perhaps we could achieve some interesting results through machine learning, but who's going to invest in that for something as inessential as pixel smoothing?

 

[Jocchan]

It varies game-to-game for me. I don't mind playing something like Super Metroid with these shaders, but with, say, Yoshi's Island I prefer to have the game look as intended.

It's funny, because Yoshi's Island is one of the very few games I believe look good with these filters.

Pic shamelessly stolen from this post by chubigans:

It's far from perfect, but it approximates the feel the game is shooting for quite nicely.

 

[Gravijah]

No, Jocchan.


Noooooooo!

 

[Jocchan]

No, Jocchan.


Noooooooo!

I probably should have stressed very few games a lot more.
I usually hate these filters, you don't gain detail and actually lose it in the transition.
In Yoshi's Island's case, though, I think it sort of fits the art style, especially for the backgrounds.

 

[JaseC]

It's funny, because Yoshi's Island is one of the very few games I believe look good with these filters.

Pic shamelessly stolen from this post by chubigans:

http://i.imgur.com/lPD0e.png

It's far from perfect, but it approximates the feel the game is shooting for quite nicely.

I can agree with that, but I simply prefer the pixel art. I think I have a subconscious appreciation for pixel art because of the simple fact I can't even draw stick figures well.

 

[From The Dust]

The bigger question is, why are you wasting your time with pixel art in the year 2011.

Because pixel art looks fucking amazing when done by a talented artist

 

[JaseC]

Because pixel art looks fucking amazing when done by a talented artist

Didn't we have a GAF pixel art city... thing some time ago? I remember it being awesome.

Edit: Yep Yep. Unfortunately, it didn't take off as much as I'd thought.

 

[bj00rn_]

By all means a nice try, but no thanks.. Leave my nostalgia alone dammit!

 

[Walshicus]

Because pixel art looks fucking amazing when done by a talented artist

Meh, some artists were able to excel in that medium but that doesn't mean the medium had merit in of itself. You know what else looks amazing when done by a talented artist? Regular "art".

 

[From The Dust]

Meh, some artists were able to excel in that medium but that doesn't mean the medium had merit in of itself. You know what else looks amazing when done by a talented artist? Regular "art".

Anything can look amazing when done by a talented artist. That's why they are "talented artists"

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I probably should have stressed very few games a lot more.
I usually hate these filters, you don't gain detail and actually lose it in the transition.
In Yoshi's Island's case, though, I think it sort of fits the art style, especially for the backgrounds.

It can look decent in some cases, especially in motion. Apart from Mario being a garbled mess, this doesn't look awful. However, I wouldn't say it looks better than the original either, just different - both are flawed.

Guardian Heroes is another good example,it actually looks decent in motion, but the algorithm they're using seems to be less aggressive than this one and adds some neat shading to boot.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

I probably should have stressed very few games a lot more.
I usually hate these filters, you don't gain detail and actually lose it in the transition.
In Yoshi's Island's case, though, I think it sort of fits the art style, especially for the backgrounds.

I definitely agree, I actually used a filter for my last Yoshi's Island playthrough. Most of the time I like to blur the image and maybe use scanlines, so I can play as the game was designed to look.

 

[Jocchan]

I can agree with that, but I simply prefer the pixel art. I think I have a subconscious appreciation for pixel art because of the simple fact I can't even draw stick figures well.

Hey, I'm a pixel artist myself
The amount of detail you can cram into a small sprite is amazing.

Didn't we have a GAF pixel art city... thing some time ago? I remember it being awesome.

http://neogaf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=369510

Too bad everyone lost interest when the second thread was opened :/

I'd love to see it finished one day.