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[PhatSaqs]

It's all a haze because of the constant commentary, but I thought Sony never wavered from their declaration that is was realtime. I remember a whole bunch of internet fanboys saying they new one of the guerilla folks and that it was outsourced to a CG firm and people could see that the footage was faked because it had various artifacts in the videos, and on and on and on.


In any case, I just find it interesting that you're now declaring GOW to be Killzone's equal graphically. Certainly GOW is a nice looking game, but I just haven't heard that comparison before.

What I said back in May.

Again on Killzone, there was an interview where a Guerilla rep stated it wasnt real time and then a quote from a couple of Sony reps saying otherwise. I'm sure it's all in one of the bitchfest threads here.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Again on Killzone, there was an interview where a Guerilla rep stated it wasnt real time and then a quote from a couple of Sony reps saying otherwise. I'm sure it's all in one of the bitchfest threads here.

yeah that was funny.

Killzone Timeline:

1.) Guerrilla members say that it was the target demo.

2.) Phil Harrison and another SCEA official come out say it was real time and you will get those graphics at home when you buy the game.

3.) PSM says the Killzone demo was running at 5FPS and was sped up.

WHO TO BELIEVE???

 

[Squeak]

DS2 is not the perfect controller, that just need a few adjustments.
DS2 is if not bad controller, then a seriously flawed one.

It is in essence a PS1 pad (which in turn is a SNES pad with handles and two extra shoulder buttons) with rumble and two analog hap-hazardously thrown on.

There is no reason that the analogs should be where they are now.
The analogs is the most used and effective means of control in 3d games.
They should be in main position.

The D pad on the Playstation pad is very poor.
Because there is no centre, you can't nest your finger in the middle and rock the pad around smoothly. You have to laboriously (as in milliseconds, but crucial in a fast game) move your thumb between the four parts.
The D pad should be there only for BC reasons and be moved to second place position under the left analog.

It is idiotic that the one button used the most of the face buttons, is the same size as the other three. The most used button should have a comfortable centre position and be largest of all to signify its position.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

yeah that was funny.

Killzone Timeline:

1.) Guerrilla members say that it was the target demo.

2.) Phil Harrison and another SCEA official come out say it was real time and you will get those graphics at home when you buy the game.

3.) PSM says the Killzone demo was running at 5FPS and was sped up.

WHO TO BELIEVE???

1, 2, and 3 are all describing the same thing.

 

[sonycowboy]

DS2 is not the perfect controller, that just need a few adjustments.
DS2 is if not bad controller, then a seriously flawed one.

It is in essence a PS1 pad (which in turn is a SNES pad with handles and two extra shoulder buttons) with rumble and two analog hap-hazardously thrown on.

There is no reason that the analogs should be where they are now.
The analogs is the most used and effective means of control in 3d games.
They should be in main position.

The D pad on the Playstation pad is very poor.
Because there is no centre, you can't nest your finger in the middle and rock the pad around smoothly. You have to laboriously (as in milliseconds, but crucial in a fast game) move your thumb between the four parts.
The D pad should be there only for BC reasons and be moved to second place position under the left analog.

It is idiotic that the one button used the most of the face buttons, is the same size as the other three. The most used button should have a comfortable centre position and be largest of all to signify its position.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

1, 2, and 3 are all describing the same thing.

O RLY?

There's a big difference between a CG clip shown to fool people, a real time demo running at 60 FPS and a real time demo running at 5 FPS.

I think it was 1, the environments were realtime but the characters were CG.

 

[Zaptruder]

DS2 is not the perfect controller, that just need a few adjustments.
DS2 is if not bad controller, then a seriously flawed one.

It is in essence a PS1 pad (which in turn is a SNES pad with handles and two extra shoulder buttons) with rumble and two analog hap-hazardously thrown on.

There is no reason that the analogs should be where they are now.
The analogs is the most used and effective means of control in 3d games.
They should be in main position.

The D pad on the Playstation pad is very poor.
Because there is no centre, you can't nest your finger in the middle and rock the pad around smoothly. You have to laboriously (as in milliseconds, but crucial in a fast game) move your thumb between the four parts.
The D pad should be there only for BC reasons and be moved to second place position under the left analog.

It is idiotic that the one button used the most of the face buttons, is the same size as the other three. The most used button should have a comfortable centre position and be largest of all to signify its position.

God, I'm glad you're just some idiotic fanboy ranting on an internet forum and not the actual PS controller designer.

 

[Squeak]

Tell me where I'm wrong and why please.

 

[Neex]

I think Squeak's got some good reasons there. With the amount of time spent using a controller, they really should be perfect.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Man. Recommend some changes to a controller design and get called an "idiotic fanboy" and a crybaby :lol :lol

 

[VisionaryQuest0]

Nobody dares talk crap about the Sony Gods!

 

[sonycowboy]

Man. Recommend some changes to a controller design and get called an "idiotic fanboy" and a crybaby :lol :lol

His commentary was a bit extreme,although I'll admit he actually made an argument for various aspects, but I was more commenting on his bolding, underlining, and general hyperbolic language. People can make decent points and still be hysterical in their delivery.

 

[Miburou]

It is idiotic that the one button used the most of the face buttons, is the same size as the other three. The most used button should have a comfortable centre position and be largest of all to signify its position.

What are you babbling about? Unless it's strictly a platformer, then most games have at least two buttons that are considered primary (jump & shoot, gas & brakes, etc.). Having a bigass button in the middle like you're catering strictly to retards is what's idiotic.

And what difference does it make where the analog stick is located? I don't find it any less comfortable than if it were located in place of the d-pad. It's not like it's going to feel inferior and work less effectively. Now if you had complained about the quality and feel of the sticks themselves, then I might agree. Or complain about the lack of triggers.

 

[teiresias]

Tell me where I'm wrong and why please.

I don't think I've ever seen someone troll a topic based on motivation from the Gamecube controller before, bravo!! I award you:

 

[kaching]

Tell me where I'm wrong and why please.

You're not wrong per se, just narrow-mindedly concerned only about what works for you. For example:

There is no reason that the analogs should be where they are now.
The analogs is the most used and effective means of control in 3d games.
They should be in main position.

See, for me, the analog sticks feel perfectly comfortable where they are now. My thumbs have a natural range of motion that easily swings between the position of the d-pad/face buttons and the position of the analog sticks with no discomfort at either position. There is no "main" position as a result because they're both equally suitable for my use.

 

[Nightbringer]

I have small hands and PS2 control pad is a hell for me.

 

[iapetus]

I loathe asymmetrical placement of analogue sticks with a vengeance.

And the reason Squeak gets mocked for his 'improvements' is that basically he thinks it should be the Gamecube controller. Couldn't be any more blatant if he insisted the damn thing should be purple.

 

[Red Blaster]

Anyone who can't adapt to all game controllers is some kind of idiot, or a pussy. Seriously, I've played games on dozens of different controllers, and I've never had problems in terms of comfort.

 

[Squeak]

What are you babbling about? Unless it's strictly a platformer, then most games have at least two buttons that are considered primary (jump & shoot, gas & brakes, etc.). Having a bigass button in the middle like you're catering strictly to retards is what's idiotic.

Most games are actually better off by using (the heavily under-utilised) shoulder buttons for the mentioned examples. The Gamecube face button layout is much easier (hence faster) to mentally map.
It would be even easier if instead of B, Y, X the buttons was called <,^,> but the X, Y thing works too.

Now if you had complained about the quality and feel of the sticks themselves, then I might agree. Or complain about the lack of triggers.

Analog triggers with long travel is a nice feature, but are only really needed in racing games. That's why I didn't include them. The quality of the sticks is okay, it's just that they are raised too much from the rest of the controller and they have sort of a mechanical dead zone in the rest position.

You're not wrong per se, just narrow-mindedly concerned only about what works for you. For example:

See, for me, the analog sticks feel perfectly comfortable where they are now. My thumbs have a natural range of motion that easily swings between the position of the d-pad/face buttons and the position of the analog sticks with no discomfort at either position. There is no "main" position as a result because they're both equally suitable for my use.

Then why do you think GC-pad and x-pad have one analog in main position?

I know anatomy (because I'm human and I can see that others are built like me)
I can feel there is a little more strain on the thumbs when they have to bend back to reach the sticks, that are at the outer edge of the natural range of motion.
That tiny amount of strain affects the precision.
Buttons don't need that much precision, so it would only be logical to but them in secondary position.
You still have the four shoulder buttons right at your fingertips all the time.

 

[Insertia]

Anyone who can't adapt to all game controllers is some kind of idiot, or a pussy. Seriously, I've played games on dozens of different controllers, and I've never had problems in terms of comfort.

QFTT
I'm using a $7 3rd party controller for my PS2(ds2 has a shortage in the cord from repeated yankings) and it's no worse than the gamecube or xbox controller.
This "Controller Warszz!!" is stupid.

 

[Squeak]

I don't think I've ever seen someone troll a topic based on motivation from the Gamecube controller before, bravo!! I award you:

Wow, I feel so honoured, except I'm not really sure what I did on the 2nd of August and why I get the award a month later?!

 

[Squeak]

Anyone who can't adapt to all game controllers is some kind of idiot, or a pussy. Seriously, I've played games on dozens of different controllers, and I've never had problems in terms of comfort.

This is not about being able to adapt to different controllers, it's about how well it's possible to play with them once you have adapted.

QFTT
I'm using a $7 3rd party controller for my PS2(ds2 has a shortage in the cord from repeated yankings) and it's no worse than the gamecube or xbox controller.
This "Controller Warszz!!" is stupid.

That right there says it all, how much you care for your hardware and indirectly for you gaming experience.

 

[Pimpbaa]

That right there says it all, how much you care for your hardware and indirectly for you gaming experience.

I definitely care about my gaming experience. Which is why I think the GC controller is the worst this generation due to it's lousy button layout and worthless d-pad.

 

[Squeak]

I definitely care about my gaming experience. Which is why I think the GC controller is the worst this generation due to it's lousy button layout and worthless d-pad.

Why, can't you adapt "idiot and/or pussy"?

 

[Pimpbaa]

Why, can't you adapt "idiot and/or pussy"?

I adapted well enough. I certainly didn't buy any multi console titles for my gamecube when I had it (due to the controller).

 

[erlim]

I had this bat-a-rang type controler for the PSone before they adoped analogue sticks, (it was shaped a lot like the upcomming ps3 controlers) and honestly, it was my favorite controler. However, that controler had an excellent d-pad. However, I think the new sony controller will at least be palletable.
As for the killzone arguements, I think its kind of a moot point. Regardless of graphics, in two or three years when the game comes out, its still probably going to be a ferociously mediocre game...

 

[Squeak]

The GC pad is only partly good, and I agree the D pad, Z trigger and C stick stub are less than optimal.

Nintendo should have had the courage to go through with the below design plus a better C stick, and then maybe reconsidered the purple/indigo, so homophobic American teens wouldn’t be scared away (not that I mind the colour at all):

 

[Pimpwerx]

Squeek: Virtua-On says you're wrong.

Seriously, there are pros and cons to the analog stick placement. I kinda agree with everything else, but the pros to the symmetrical layout is the aforementioned game (which owns all) and the damn 2D gamers who can attest to the d-pad's location being in the right spot. Moving the d-pad to the analog position makes it a whole lot less functional than having the analog in that position. I can swing it both ways, but kinda prefer it the way it is for the inevitable Tekken, Soul, VF game. But I agree with some of the other complaints, like the shitty d-pad design and the ergonomics. PEACE.

 

[Insertia]

That right there says it all, how much you care for your hardware and indirectly for you gaming experience.

What the hell does that mean?
God, some gamers are just plain weird.

 

[kaching]

Then why do you think GC-pad and x-pad have one analog in main position?

Vive la difference, Squeak.

I know anatomy (because I'm human and I can see that others are built like me)

So you're saying that:

dwarf hands = squeak's hands = 7' basketball players hands?

Have I got that right?

I can feel there is a little more strain on the thumbs when they have to bend back to reach the sticks, that are at the outer edge of the natural range of motion.
That tiny amount of strain affects the precision.

Sorry to hear you're experiencing strain, Squeak. I'm experiencing no such thing.

 

[Squeak]

Squeek: Virtua-On says you're wrong.

Seriously, there are pros and cons to the analog stick placement. I kinda agree with everything else, but the pros to the symmetrical layout is the aforementioned game (which owns all)

Even though symmetry is astatically nice, for most games it's just not the best setup. And doing what's best for most games is what controller design is all about.

and the damn 2D gamers who can attest to the d-pad's location being in the right spot. Moving the d-pad to the analog position makes it a whole lot less functional than having the analog in that position. I can swing it both ways, but kinda prefer it the way it is for the inevitable Tekken, Soul, VF game. But I agree with some of the other complaints, like the shitty d-pad design and the ergonomics. PEACE.

As already said, digital control needs less precision than analog, so analog should have the best placement on the pad, period.
General purpose pads can't be designed to accommodate niche genres with special, silly or archaic requirements.
Both 2d platformers and beathemups would benefit immensely, from being a bit more willing to adapt to analog sticks.
That said, there are superior alternatives to the bog standard (space taking) D pad, like the NEOGEO digital stick.
Maybe an analog could be turned digital by pulling a little lever on the pad?

 

[Squeak]

Vive la difference, Squeak.

Yes of course, they are different just for the sake of it. Why didn't I think of that?

So you're saying that:

dwarf hands = squeak's hands = 7' basketball players hands?

Have I got that right?

Even though you might be trying to be witty, that still makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry to hear you're experiencing strain, Squeak. I'm experiencing no such thing.

At least I'm feeling something, sure your 7' basketball players hands haven’t gone numb from all that playing with your joystick?

 

[Lord Error]

Yes of course, they are different just for the sake of it. Why didn't I think of that?

At least I'm feeling something, sure your 7' basketball players hands haven’t gone numb from all that playing with your joystick?

Today I hear reports of people eating carcasses to survive in what was a civilized city a week ago, and then I go here and read someone getting actually upset and insulting over the position of sticks and buttons.

Maybe I should retire from this forum for a day or so, for my own sanity's sake.

 

[sly]

I know anatomy (because I'm human and I can see that others are built like me)
I can feel there is a little more strain on the thumbs when they have to bend back to reach the sticks, that are at the outer edge of the natural range of motion.
That tiny amount of strain affects the precision.
Buttons don't need that much precision, so it would only be logical to but them in secondary position.
You still have the four shoulder buttons right at your fingertips all the time.

If you had a brain you'll realise that there is no perfect contoller. What works for you might not work for someone else. No two hands are the same.

 

[Chrono]

I hope we see the new controller in TGS along with some gameplay movies.

Something I'm not sure of about the d-pad is that in japan gamers usually use it mainly for playing - even for 3d games. I think miyamoto said that. It wouldn't surprise me if they come out with two different controllers, one for japan and for for us/europe. Though I can see nintendo going with the d-pad in the main position and giving non-japanese gamers the big FU heh. God I hope not.. it's very nintendo-ish though. :lol

 

[FightyF]

In any case, I just find it interesting that you're now declaring GOW to be Killzone's equal graphically. Certainly GOW is a nice looking game, but I just haven't heard that comparison before.

When comparing screens, it's a valid comparison. I'd say that KZ still looks better, but the difference isn't that large.

The whole issue with KZ is that what really made it impressive was the animation...but I don't think that sort of animation will be in the game.

I think it's real-time content that will be used, but recorded in non-realtime. Look at the floor, obviously bump mapped. The arm in the very front right corner has a blurry texture, the "furry" shadow on the arm in the left has some issues.

I see the game using the art and such, but not all of that animation. Plus, the game's camera was artifically controlled, making it more cinematic. When playing (with a keyboard and mouse) movement will be far more jerky. Even with the gamepad it won't be that smooth.

 

[terrene]

DS2 is not the perfect controller, that just need a few adjustments.
DS2 is if not bad controller, then a seriously flawed one.

It is in essence a PS1 pad (which in turn is a SNES pad with handles and two extra shoulder buttons) with rumble and two analog hap-hazardously thrown on.

There is no reason that the analogs should be where they are now.
The analogs is the most used and effective means of control in 3d games.
They should be in main position.

The D pad on the Playstation pad is very poor.
Because there is no centre, you can't nest your finger in the middle and rock the pad around smoothly. You have to laboriously (as in milliseconds, but crucial in a fast game) move your thumb between the four parts.
The D pad should be there only for BC reasons and be moved to second place position under the left analog.

It is idiotic that the one button used the most of the face buttons, is the same size as the other three. The most used button should have a comfortable centre position and be largest of all to signify its position.

FUCK, you give me a serious headache, dude.

Welcome to my ignore list!

 

[Afro Thunder]

Where are the screens though?

I don't remember any direct shots of the E3 Unreal demo being released, whats up with that?

Is Airton Senna on your avatar? Where are you from?

 

[Squeak]

Today I hear reports of people eating carcasses to survive in what was a civilized city a week ago, and then I go here and read someone getting actually upset and insulting over the position of sticks and buttons.

Maybe I should retire from this forum for a day or so, for my own sanity's sake.

Horrible, unspeakable things happen every day of the week, yet that doesn't stop people from arguing over small things in their everyday life, welcome to earth Marconelly.
And I'm not upset as such, I just think that Sonys conservative approach to controller design is worrisome.

FUCK, you give me a serious headache, dude.

Welcome to my ignore list!

Wow that hurt.

 

[teiresias]

And I'm not upset as such, I just think that Sonys conservative approach to controller design is worrisome.

I'm guessing you define "conservative approach" as "designing a controller that can be used effectively with a game other than whatever launch title Miyamoto is working on."

 

[Panajev2001a]

I know anatomy (because I'm human and I can see that others are built like me)

I am with you, I still do not get WHY they make you take tons of college classes to become a surgeon... liberar university whacko's.

 

[bishoptl]

:lol Panajev, cutting to the heart of the matter as usual.

 

[Squeak]

If you had a brain you'll realise that there is no perfect contoller. What works for you might not work for someone else. No two hands are the same.

Well that sort of makes joypad designers job impossible, doesn’t it? Trying to design a pad that works well for most people that is.

I'm guessing you define "conservative approach" as "designing a controller that can be used effectively with a game other than whatever launch title Miyamoto is working on."

I never got that argument. Luigis Mansion wasn’t particularly suited for the GC pad neither was SMW for the SNES pad.
The GC pad is very well suited for a wide range of games.
Just because it doesn’t work that well with 2d beatthemups (which as a genre should move on anyway), it’s all like “OMG Nintendo is thinking of their own games!!1”.

I am with you, I still do not get WHY they make you take tons of college classes to become a surgeon... liberar university whacko's.

Okay, I didn’t say I knew all about anatomy. My point was that human hands, while different, isn’t *that* different. We almost all have five fingers on each hand, and those fingers have a certain range of motion (unless you suffer from hypermobility).
Now if the PS3 pad is smaller than the current DS2 (as suggested by some photos), that *would* alleviate the problems of the layout to some degree but would introduce others.

 

[Shogmaster]

DING DING DING

Looks mean shit. Let's wait for the batarang to be given a hands-on before we rip it to shreds. The DS2 is perfect...for button layout IMO. But as far as ergonomics go, I'm very much in love with the Wavebird. I think if they can make a shape that melds the functionality with ergonomics, then I could care less if it looked like a damn strap-on. It's a shame that the backlash so far might deep-six this controller before it's ever given a chance. Then again, I also blame Sony for not letting anyone hold it in the last 3 months. I mean...how difficult could it be to let some of the press at least hold it in their hands? PEACE.

Duane, how the fuck can you try to justify a new controller design sans analog triggers in 2000 fucking 5? WTF dude. The battarang is shit because it's actually just a (poor) attampt at the slick packaging of ancient functionality.

 

[Panajev2001a]

:lol Panajev, cutting to the heart of the matter as usual.

I try .

 

[jiggle]

The handles must serve some purpose. I find it hard to believe Sony incorporated something so ugly for aesthetic reason. Tilt detection? :lol

 

[Kleegamefan]

The real reason for the change of the dual shock design is because of the Immersion lawsuit....

Whatever the final design turns out to be, I'm sure it won't look like a DS

 

[Mrbob]

I'm hoping Sony adjust ths placement of the analog sticks. I can't stand having them right next to each other. Plus they need to make the stick gripments tighter. As of right now I'll buy all my multi platform games on X360 just because the X360 pad is much better. I'll never get used to the boomerang with the stick right next to each other just like I hate it on the PS2 pad.

 

[HokieJoe]

The real reason for the change of the dual shock design is because of the Immersion lawsuit....

Whatever the final design turns out to be, I'm sure it won't look like a DS

Is it not likely that Sony will license the Immersion tech?

 

[Azure Dream]

Today I hear reports of people eating carcasses to survive in what was a civilized city a week ago, and then I go here and read someone getting actually upset and insulting over the position of sticks and buttons.

Maybe I should retire from this forum for a day or so, for my own sanity's sake.

When in doubt, trivialize the point of discussion by pointing to a recent disaster or battle.

"Well, Billy, maybe I did misgrade your paper and fail you unfairly, but there are people dying because of floods! You need to get a better perspective on things!"

You know what? What happened really, really sucks. But you don't come into a topic titled "New PS3 Info" and expect to see, "How we can add to the relief efforts of the victims of the recent tragedy."


Anyway, back on _topic_, I think Fight for Freeform said it well; it's the target for what they will do technology-wise on the PS3, but part of what sold the KillZone trailer was that the animation was tuned to a fault, with motions and unique gestures that even a physics engine won't recreate, and too many variables going on in a real gaming sequence to prescript it all. (Such as the way the "player" ran.) It's something that can really be done on the PS3, but the time and money investment to add all of those little touches into a full-scale product would be unreal.