Negotiator
Member
Just like Jaguar and Zen belong in the same ISA (x86-64).
Many people confuse uarch with ISA.
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Many people confuse uarch with ISA.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Random thought of the day...
- Lockhart still isn't dead
- Lockhart configuration will be used in the cloud for 1080 streams, 4k later (on full fat hardware if demand sufficient)
- Different sized memory that can be swapped out for Lockhart/Anaconda as per reveal video speculation
- Gonzalo is Lockhart? - under powered next gen for 1080 output
- Chiplet configuration still makes sense for MS - silicon lottery winners in Anaconda, losers in Lockhart/cloud
- Chiplet config explains under performance
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SonGoku
Member
I like your theory but wouldn't enabling-disabling units for 1080p/4k make more sense in a large scale implementation
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
The low end binned chips/chiplets get stuck in server blades for cloud use.
You don't need to have those blades fully loaded for 4k output if they're only generating 1080 streams. Saving on memory alone for all the cloud instances alone would be significant.
Also means that you have a use for all those silicon lottery losers. Typical AMD business model that has been borrowed.
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SonGoku
Member
Ye but gonzolo isnt a big chip (navi20) with disabled units, its navi10
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
True. For now. But it doesn't mean that it stays that way once production ramps up.
SonGoku
Member
But that isnt gonzalo anymore its a different chip design
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
SonGoku
Member
Yep that makes sense, though i got a hunch gonzolo is SuborZ final formSo Gonzalo is cloud (formerly lockhart) then. No one else needs it
The Subor Z+ console team has disbanded - but it's not game over yet
Last September we took an early look at the Z+, a Windows 10 games console from Chinese manufacturer Zhongshan Subor. A…
www.eurogamer.net
Google Translate
A 8TF Navi APU makes sense for 2020 and beyond, their initial 4TF Vega APU is outdated
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bhunachicken
Member
Reading that 20,000 score and looking at the Fire Strike listing: the PS5 could be somewhere between a 1080 and a 1080TI? According to Eurogamer, those cards are able to do the vast majority of current PC games in 1440p at over 60fps. I believe Sony have stated the PS5 will be offering 1440p?
According to some tech sites, the nVidia 1080 TI delivers ~11TF.
So, maybe all this stuff about the PS5 delivering 11TF isn't so far fetched after all. The 1080 will be 4 years old by Q3 2020, so ... yeah.
According to some tech sites, the nVidia 1080 TI delivers ~11TF.
So, maybe all this stuff about the PS5 delivering 11TF isn't so far fetched after all. The 1080 will be 4 years old by Q3 2020, so ... yeah.
Look at the code. Seems all Sony console chips start with DG1XXX, while MS are DG3/4/5XXX. You can look for yourself.
Gonzalo is not underpowered. It scores more then Vega56/Vega64 on 3DMark. Matches 2070, perhaps beats it.
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bitbydeath
Member
Nope. Only 4K and 8K.
bitbydeath
Member
Look at the code. Seems all Sony console chips start with DG1XXX, while MS are DG3/4/5XXX. You can look for yourself.
Gonzalo is not underpowered. It scores more then Vega56/Vega64 on 3DMark. Matches 2070, perhaps beats it.
Sony wouldn’t ask for those codes specifically, they’re hardware based codes.
Console codes for all AMD based consoles and revisions -
Sony
DG1XXX,
DG11XX,
DG12XX,
DG13XX,
DG14XX,
2G16XX (2 - QS, D - retail, Gonzalo).
Microsoft
DG34XX
DG4XXX
DG57XX
Subor -
DG11SRD
So you tell me what to look for here. Is Gonzalo, 20K console scoring on 3DMark some kind of unannounced beast that is matching 2070 systems out there and chip is already in QS but no one has ever heard of it?
Is it Subor, even if company is bankrupt and has completely different naming nomenclature? Or is it MS that has other codename for their console (Arden) and again different naming nomenclature from one Gonzalo has?
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SonGoku
Member
Im confident PS5 will be 11TF+ so around 1080ti/2080 perfomance
Gonzalo is either fake or powering Suborz+
I hope some games target 1440p for maximum eye candy
The person who leaked that code name (hnnng) already backtracked on it.
Are you sure you copied these right?
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Songoku, Brad Sams leaked Arden. Even then, I am not going by what Hnng, or whatever is this guys name, says.
I saw Arden back in January posted by Komachi on his twitter.
Btw I am of the opinion that hnnng is full of shit. He hasnt done 1 thing to prove he knows anything on inside.
I saw Arden back in January posted by Komachi on his twitter.
Btw I am of the opinion that hnnng is full of shit. He hasnt done 1 thing to prove he knows anything on inside.
SonGoku
Member
hnnng leaked Arden conection with xbox lol, Brad referenced hnnngs leak (brads a ree remember)
Komachi only commented on the pcid
The only source linking PS5 with Ariel is komachi,
No, hnggg said Xbox SOC is Anubis. He is wrong. Know where he is also wrong?
1. Wrong codename
2. Lockart does not exit
3. Nothing happened at GDC
So pretty much wrong on EVERY account, that is why he is not verified but likely role playing insider.
Anubis was AMD codename for Scorpio, it was added to PCI ID base beginning of 2017.
See code for Anubis?
This is Scorpio SOC.
In the end, your entire argument starts on wrong side. It starts with presumption that NexGen consoles have to have at least 11-13TF. You are ignoring benchmarks that say sub 10TF NaviXT is beating Vega56, NV 2070 and Vega64, while matching Radeon 7.
This is where story ends. AMD went for wider and more game focused CUs. What they lose in pure TF, they gain (and then some) in pure performance.
Wanna be insider.
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XX are random numbers. For all Sonys chips, new revision was 2nd number change, 1 stayed always.
For MS, in every revision first number was changed, always.
SonGoku
Member
I agree hnnnng is wrong, im just telling you he is the source for Arden=Xbox
look at your gonzolo code
nvm you edited it
lol NaviXT is below the 2070 on the timespy benchmark, Radeon 7 faster than 2070.
Consoles will go with a wider design for power efficiency, mark my words
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SonGoku
Member
Even if that's true, that clock is way out of the confort zone for a console at 9.7TF
Consoles will go with a wider (56-64CUs) slower (1400-1600mhz) design for around 11-12TF. That should give 2080 performance and then some. I believe this is the monster leaks are referencing
Nvidias cards boost comfortably above base clock anyways
btw
I scored 9 493 in Time Spy
AMD Ryzen 7 2700X, AMD Radeon VII x 1, 16384 MB, 64-bit Windows 10}
www.3dmark.com
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You are dreaming mate. 225W is XT, even with less clocks and more CUs, that is far too much.
There are no real leaks. Only leak I believe, that is not technical, is DF saying devs are "pretty happy" with PS5.
Now maybe that means 12TF Navi matching 2080TI + RT and 24GB of RAM. But I think otherwise...
There are no real leaks. Only leak I believe, that is not technical, is DF saying devs are "pretty happy" with PS5.
Now maybe that means 12TF Navi matching 2080TI + RT and 24GB of RAM. But I think otherwise...
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SonGoku
Member
That's assuming consoles launch on 7nm EUV so the power savings plus lower voltage required for a 1400mhz to 1600mhz clock will make 11-12TF (and even 13) posible
On 7nm DUV I expect ~10TF max with 52CUs
Leaks that reference monsters, Ubisoft comments, ms comments all reference a Kaiju category V
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Ar¢tos
Member
PC has bigger overhead OS and APIs and games aren't as extensively optimized per each GPU available. The same chip can easily get 1800p in a console. 1800p + good quality CB (or temporal injection) is all you need in a console.
bitbydeath
Member
Reuthniccookie has been right on everything so far and has a track record with pre-announcing Sony not attending E3.
His leak, "4K 60fps kind of monster" absolutely doesnt mean anything. Current gen consoles are CPU bound for more then 30fps. ~2070 in closed box with Zen2 would have no problems delivering 4K 60fps in its first year.
He also said March or November, so if March is on table chip is certainly existing and actually, should be existing for months now.
SonGoku
Member
Even the RTX 2080 struggles to keep a locked 60fps at 4k on current gen games
Engineering samples can exist without leaks
Well Xbox One X is 4K native ~50fps in BFV, with Jaguar CPU and Polaris @ 6TF. There is nothing out of the ordinary to expect Navi 10 and 8 core Zen2 in closed box to pump 60fps 4K games. On the other hand, that kind of comment is very slippery. There where 1080p/60fps games for PS3 and all sorts of promises, thought most turned out <720p and <30fps.
Agreed. And they can also leak, like they have.
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SonGoku
Member
bf5 is designed to run at ~60fps on base consoles
Show me the rx580 paired with a good cpu benchmarks pulling 40k/60fps on 30fps console games
Show me 7800GTX running GTAV or Halo 4. This is such a futile effort...
"4k 60fps kind of monster" is such a vague sentence. Means absolutely 0 without know technicalities, which Mr. Cookie obviously doesnt know (he seemed to know certain marketing and general strat things, not how many CUs are in GPU).
ANIMAL1975
Member
2080TI
i think
TLZ
and i we pretty reliable
we are with team16. 8
Well, and if we take a moment to think about it, Gonzalo has much more to do with Anaconda, both latin names, than with Ariel or whatever codename Sony is using for PS5.Yep that makes sense, though i got a hunch gonzolo is SuborZ final form
The Subor Z+ console team has disbanded - but it's not game over yet
Last September we took an early look at the Z+, a Windows 10 games console from Chinese manufacturer Zhongshan Subor. A…
Google Translate
A 8TF Navi APU makes sense for 2020 and beyond, their initial 4TF Vega APU is outdated
SonGoku
Member
I agree its vague since frame rate is a developer design choice but it can also be interpreted to reference a GPU on par with "4k cards" like the 2080 that are powerful enough to do 4k at 60fps.
Very good observation, didnt think of that
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You also have to take into account PS4Pro was "4K machine", made specifically for 4K TVs as Cerny said, yet its ultimatively not here nor there. Too little BW for full 4K, probably too little TF as well.
Issue with Gonzalo = Xbox is :
1) Codename does not fit MS/AMD chips, but it does, perfectly so for Sony/AMD
2) 13e9 is internal Ariel GPU, as per PCI ID, matching Gonzalo.
Arden (rumored Xbox codename) has ID 1607 for iGPU, not 13e9.
Issue with Gonzalo = Xbox is :
1) Codename does not fit MS/AMD chips, but it does, perfectly so for Sony/AMD
2) 13e9 is internal Ariel GPU, as per PCI ID, matching Gonzalo.
Arden (rumored Xbox codename) has ID 1607 for iGPU, not 13e9.
PCI Devices
pci-ids.ucw.cz
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pawel86ck
Banned
I have watched digital foundry BF5 analysis a long time ago, but as I remember game is checkerboarded to 4K, not 4K native.
But you know what? I'm still not willing to join your >8TF team, and I still believe it's possible 10-14TF team will win at the end but right now we just dont know what Sony/MS and AMD engineers have done behind closed doors. Maybe they know how to pack 10-14TF into console using some new knowledge, while you are trying to estimate everything based on current knowledge.
So according to you RX5700 XT 9.7TF Navi 225W is far too much for a console, so it means Gonzalo score must be fake, because you would need at least 9.7TF to match Gonzalo score, and probably 11-12TF if you take into account PS5 drivers arnt optimized to run 3dmark. So basically speaking Gonzalo leak is fake and we should all expect 8.3TF GPU at max if we are lucky, and probably below >8TF because it's hard to believe they will go with 1.8GHz clock on any console. So clearly Gonzalo score is way above even the most optimistic 8.3TF estimation.
But you know what? I'm still not willing to join your >8TF team, and I still believe it's possible 10-14TF team will win at the end but right now we just dont know what Sony/MS and AMD engineers have done behind closed doors. Maybe they know how to pack 10-14TF into console using some new knowledge, while you are trying to estimate everything based on current knowledge.
Even 8800 GTX cant run GTA5, although PC version is more like a remaster, so it make sense why game is more demanding. GTA4 run MUCH BETTER on my 8800Ultra than PS3 version (1680x1050 35-40fps, high settings, and distance sliders at around 40% Vs subhd, 20-25fps, low details on PS3).
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BF V has dynamic resolution on X. BF1 is full 4K, as is Battlefront 2 (4K @60fps)
Navi XT beats Vega56 (6.3K), Vega64 (7.4K) and is slightly below Radeon7 (8.7K) in TimeSpy. Considering this, Gonzalo having 20K score with ~8.5TF Navi and Zen2 is expected, actually, it fits like a glow.
Mind you, Vega64 and Radeon VII are 12.6TF and 13.8TF cards.
Navi XT I think will be scoring ~22K with Zen2 on Firestrike, duo to its compute advantage over 2070 in Firestrike.
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ANIMAL1975
Member
pawel86ck
Banned
So it's dynamic 1600p-4K then, not 4K native as you have wrote before.
8TF Navi + 25% IPC gain equals to 10TF Vega, not 12.5TF (like in Vega64).
And BTW. I have asked you 2 times already, who told you Radeon RX5700 XT will be a 225W beast, there are TDP tests already?
I mistook it for Battlefront and BF1, but still, these are all 60fps ~4K titles on 8 core mobile CPUs and Polaris.
You are using wrong IPC improvement. Per TF, Navi is 1.41x faster. Navi XT is faster then Vega64 by 17% in TimeSpy, which means 9.7TF GPU matches 13.6TF from Vega (and therefore only slightly lower then Radeon 7).
8.5TF Navi would be ~12TF Vega. Is this bad? I am not sure what you expected last year, perhaps 15TF Vegas?
As per TDP, I am going by what AMD officially announced.
If this was much better, better believe they would shout about it as advantage over 2070.
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
www.extremetech.com
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pawel86ck
Banned
So you have mistook it for battlefield 1, but the thing is Battlefield 1 is not 4K native game eitherI mistook it for Battlefront and BF1, but still, these are all 60fps ~4K titles on 8 core mobile CPUs and Polaris.
You are using wrong IPC improvement. Per TF, Navi is 1.41x faster. Navi XT is faster then Vega64 by 17% in TimeSpy, which means 9.7TF GPU matches 13.6TF from Vega (and therefore only slightly lower then Radeon 7).
8.5TF Navi would be ~12TF Vega. Is this bad? I am not sure what you expected last year, perhaps 15TF Vegas?
As per TDP, I am going by what AMD officially announced.
If this was much better, better believe they would shout about it as advantage over 2070.
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
. Below quote from VGtech analysis
So it's not only dynamic 4K but also checkerboarded on top of that. Sure xbox x can run some games in 4K and 60fps (games like forza 7, or halo remasters), but not demanding fps games like battlefield.
According to your calculations 36CU at 1.8GHz equals 8.3TF, today you suggest PS5 will be 8.5TF, so maybe tommorow you will start talking about 9TF
.According to Navi 5700 XT 3dmark benchmark chart, 9.7TF Navi is exactly at Gonzalo level (a little bit above Vega64). So we know already for a fact 9.7TF Navi GPU is needed in order to beat 12.5 Vega64, so therefore you cant expext 8TF to do the same job and especially if you take into account PS5 was running unoptimized drivers
.So you have no proof RX5700 XT is 225W beast, it's just your expectation.
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ResilientBanana
Member
He posted the article which has this quote:
"The Radeon 5700XT is a 40 CU design, with 2,560 stream processors, 9.75TFLOPs of floating-point performance, and substantially higher clocks than anything we’ve seen before. The new RDNA architecture from AMD, which finally replaces GCN, is substantially more efficient than its predecessor, with a 1.25x projected uplift in performance-per-clock. TDP on the 5700XT is 225W, compared with 295W on Vega 64. Power delivery is via one 8-pin and one six-pin connector. "
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
www.extremetech.com
My suggestion would be to read the article.
He also suggested Battlefield 1 is ~4k which means, "around 4k" which he is also not wrong.
Don't be foolish.
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pawel86ck
Banned
I cant see any TDP tests here, and that's what I want to see and especially when Igor calculations suggest much lower TDP.He posted the article which has this quote:
"The Radeon 5700XT is a 40 CU design, with 2,560 stream processors, 9.75TFLOPs of floating-point performance, and substantially higher clocks than anything we’ve seen before. The new RDNA architecture from AMD, which finally replaces GCN, is substantially more efficient than its predecessor, with a 1.25x projected uplift in performance-per-clock. TDP on the 5700XT is 225W, compared with 295W on Vega 64. Power delivery is via one 8-pin and one six-pin connector. "
AMD Unveils Radeon RX 5700, 5700XT: New Navi GPUs to Tackle Turing - ExtremeTech
AMD announced its Navi graphics cards and RDNA architecture at E3, with substantial improvements in both raw performance and performance per watt.
My suggestion would be to read the article.
He also suggested Battlefield 1 is ~4k which means, "around 4k" which he is also not wrong.
Don't be foolish.
That's what he wrote initially and later on he started talking about BF1 and battlefront. To me 4K native means 4K native, not checkerboard or dynamic 4K.
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My entire point, if you care to read my posts, is that "Its 4k 60fpd kind od beast" tells us 0. Nothing. Zlich. Nada.
Xbox One X, as you said, has some very impressive looking titles running at 4k 60fps (Battlefront 2/Forza Horizon) and relatively close to 4k at 60fps (BF series, I guess this is duo to physics being much more stressing then in the other 2 full 4k games).
Second, I am comparing Navi XT results @ 9.6TF in TimeSype (because it didnt run at full boost), not directly with Firestrike (Gonzalo benchmark), which is completely different benchmark.
Navi XT is, according to AMD, faster then FE version of 2070 anywhere from 2% to 20%. I guess this result will be closer to ~5-6%, but it also means Navi XT is COMFORTABLY faster then Vega64 with 3TF less, which means whatever we find in PS5 and Scarlet (and it wont be more then 9TF Navi, will be faster as well).
In any case, this is all in vein. You people are getting hung up on TF number like idiots and wont let it go. Navi is CLEARLY different arch direction that AMD too. Much more similar to Nvidia, less compute, wider CUs, more cache and therefore much more perf/TF.
This is why MS and Sony are not shouting about TF, because it would be missleading in this case. It would be missleading because people, right on this forum, would probably breatj sign of relief if Sony/MS came up and said "Huh guys, its actually 11TF Vega, not 9TF Navi".
And no, I am still standing by my ~8.5TF, this is rounded for both consoles, and would make them faster then 1080 in games.
Xbox One X, as you said, has some very impressive looking titles running at 4k 60fps (Battlefront 2/Forza Horizon) and relatively close to 4k at 60fps (BF series, I guess this is duo to physics being much more stressing then in the other 2 full 4k games).
Second, I am comparing Navi XT results @ 9.6TF in TimeSype (because it didnt run at full boost), not directly with Firestrike (Gonzalo benchmark), which is completely different benchmark.
Navi XT is, according to AMD, faster then FE version of 2070 anywhere from 2% to 20%. I guess this result will be closer to ~5-6%, but it also means Navi XT is COMFORTABLY faster then Vega64 with 3TF less, which means whatever we find in PS5 and Scarlet (and it wont be more then 9TF Navi, will be faster as well).
In any case, this is all in vein. You people are getting hung up on TF number like idiots and wont let it go. Navi is CLEARLY different arch direction that AMD too. Much more similar to Nvidia, less compute, wider CUs, more cache and therefore much more perf/TF.
This is why MS and Sony are not shouting about TF, because it would be missleading in this case. It would be missleading because people, right on this forum, would probably breatj sign of relief if Sony/MS came up and said "Huh guys, its actually 11TF Vega, not 9TF Navi".
And no, I am still standing by my ~8.5TF, this is rounded for both consoles, and would make them faster then 1080 in games.
And Cerny had his mouth full of 4K when PS4Pro was announced and we are happy when its half of that. Therefore, this entire debate about "4k 60fps beast" coming from Mr. Cookie guy can go into garbage bin, because console makers promised alot of things alot of times, does not mean much. Thinking what he said HAS to mean 13TF Navi is idiotic.
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LordOfChaos
Member
Nope, I am getting hung up on performance.What's funny that's exaxtly what you are doing
You people are parroting "If its less then 12TF it sucks" its me telling you you are comparing apples to oranges.
pawel86ck
Banned
Regardless of TF numbers, you shouldnt call people stupid just because they dont share your opinions. I dont agree with your opinions but I wasnt posting rude comments towards you even when you wrote wrong informations in regards to 4K native in battlefield 5/1.
battlefront 2 is not 4K native on xbox x, and forza horizon 4 is either 4K 30fps, or 1080p 60fps.
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